Can we equivocate human pain to animal pain?

[libster06]

MEAT HAS NO PLACE IN DESSERT?!

http://www.cookingchanneltv.com/recipes/bacon-chocolate-chip-cookies-recipe/index.html

http://www.instructables.com/id/Bacon-Cheesecake-Brownies/

http://allrecipes.com/recipe/dark-chocolate-bacon-cupcakes/

You Sir, are welcome! Ps: Had most of these, they are indeed delicious

Lawlz as much as I love bacon I haven't progressed to the point where I find desserts with it as an ingredient appetizing. Except maple bacon cupcakes. That does sound delicious to me.

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[StartingoverVet]

I'm curious as to why you would say that is the real issue? Pain is real, and has been established in animals in some way, without knowing scientifically whether animals have emotions. Whether they do or not is certainly up for debate, because of the immeasurability of an "emotion" but pain among has been established scientifically without having to establish emotional capacity first...



Agreed. There is established variability among species, and thus its extremely difficult to really say whether animals have similar, more or less pain than humans. Or even other animals. Cows are known for being incredibly stoic while being affected with or under what humans would consider an incredible amount of pain or severe illness. Whether they are horribly miserable and just not showing it, we don't know and have yet to be able to determine.

But I think it can be safely assumed that something like after cutting open an animal for surgery, they would be in a considerable amount of pain. I can't imagine a broken leg feeling much less painful either.



Interesting theory, but I also propose that, as you mentioned pain + fear together are what drives an animal in "pain", the fear may be greater than the pain, rather than the pain being a more profound response. However, it's hard to consider either, without anthropomorphizing our pain thresholds onto animals to determine. Ex: as a human, getting blood drawn isn't fun, but it's tolerable. If an animal gets blood drawn and happens to flip out, I (having experienced a blood draw myself) am inclined to think "well, even though getting blood drawn hurts, it doesn't hurt THAT bad, and it's probably making it hurt even worse because the animal is freaking out!" So, I don't know if it's that the animal is more sensitive to pain or just so fearful that it acts a fool.

I think you misunderstand me. My point was that there is no question that animals experience pain....the OP talks about the physical and emotional aspect...so only the degree of emotional could be debated IMHO.

 

[libster06]

I think you misunderstand me. My point was that there is no question that animals experience pain....the OP talks about the physical and emotional aspect...so only the degree of emotional could be debated IMHO.

Well I'll be double dipped you're plum right. I'm sorry. I didn't read the OP right... but still it seems now that they were asking both whether animals feel the same kind of pain as us (is a blood draw to an animal more or less painful than one done to us?) AND also whether they have emotions connected to pain... jeepers.

Sorry about the misunderstanding!

 

[lostbunny]

... what about tomatoes?

this is a bit late... I was making Mac 'n Cheese... but I still stand by my original opinion of:

fruit on a sandwich? You craaaazy!

 

[libster06]

I still stand by my original opinion of:

fruit on a sandwich? You craaaazy!

I stand by that too.

 

[bayarea15]

I don't know what to say that has not already been said really, except I believe animals do feel pain, and at the same level as humans. I just think they hide it better, as protection. With companion animals, I think they are fearful, and I don't blame them. Anyway. I'm a vegetarian myself. Was stuck in traffic going to reno, and was next to one of the shuttles for cows. (I have no large animal exp yet so bear with my terminology!!!) I was so excited to see the cows, and at that exact moment I said, man, I wish I could take care of animals instead of people." (I have 7 yrs exp in human health care.)

Now on the other side of the highway, was an empty shuttle. Asked my step mom where do they drop the cows off around here I wonder....

She answered, McDonald's.

I know some people think you're instantly a peta psycho if you're a vegetarian. But, ehh. I don't let them get to me.

I actually am sort of eager to get food animal exp. I guess I am feeling like maybe I can be the girl who makes sure the animals are taken care of.

Just my two cents.

 

[StartingoverVet]

Well I'll be double dipped you're plum right. !

This is the funniest expression. Where did you pick it up? It's a first time for me!

 

[sumstorm]

The fact that there are still stories in the media about abuse in farms has me really hesitant to support the industry.

Does this mean that, because there are still stories in the meida about abuse in veterinary clinics you are chosing not to support the veterinary industry (which would also suggest you wouldn't enter it, since that is a huge form of supporting it?) I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just pointing out that every industry will have folks doing something inappropriate somewhere. If you take even 20% and apply it to all, then no one would ever perform any service for anyone.

Remember that google is an adapted search engine; it bases it's results both on what your history suggests and what is most prevalent. Read up on Temple Grandin (you will come across some other methods and researchers from her material that are also worth reading), use google scholar instead of web search, start reading journals. This is the best method to find less inflammatory information (on all sides) and to start seeing what you can support/suggest in the future. It's far easier to talk to a producer/farmer about pain management when you can give them copies of articles that show pain management increased productivity (feed efficiency) than if you argue 'its just the right thing to do' because that individual has to weight 'right thing' for an animals (temporary) pain vs the 'right thing' to feel his or her family.

I am not a fan of factory farming for a lot of reasons, and I grow really tired of the 'we can't feed everyone' argument (particularly when I see how much food waste occurs in our own school) but if I approach the topic negatively, instead of with a great deal of education and a cooperative approach, I can't have an impact because I won't be listened to. I'd rather talk to a poultry raiser about decreasing total input of birds by 20% and reaching a higher market weight 9 days earlier (improved conditions for all the birds) than try to tell them that they are being cruel to shove so many animals into a barn.

If these were your animals (pets or otherwise), and I came out with an argument that helped you reach your goals with your animals while improving their welfare and could back it up with documentation wouldn't you prefer that to criticisms without win-win solutions, particularly using inflammatory words to support my belief? I learned a lot about Non-Violent Communications that has helped me share a win-win-win vision with owners/directors, in farm settings, working animals, zoo settings, and pet homes. I'd much rather have the owners of pets or livestock trying to figure out how to help me help their pet than defending themselves against my assumptions about their methods.

 

[Trematode]

I already said that I have not had the opportunity to take relevant courses or see a slaughterhouse up close and personal. Maybe when school ends, I will do some reading on my free time to get myself acquainted with the literature. I hate to admit it, but when I first went vegetarian, PETA is what did it in for me and PETA is what I lectured about whenever someone made an attack at me (at 14, most people are not curious about your beliefs, they bully). I have come a LONG way since then and have become a much more open-minded person to what I used to believe in and what may really going on. When I do get the opportunity to talk to people who know more than I do on the issue, I am still not comfortable with what I am hearing. When I interviewed a dairy cow researcher for my project, he volunteered some information about the policies of Agriculture Canada, the FDA and some projects he has worked on which did not sit well with me (or with him). On the plus side, he did explain the pros/cons of raising cows in confinement vs pasture which I appreciated. It just seems that every time someone clarifies a "myth" for me, they also let slip some information that makes me uncomfortable with what is going on with some of these large-scale operations. Perhaps I am talking to wrong people? Perhaps I am too sensitive? Perhaps it is my upbringing (no LA experience, live in an area with a lot of family farms) Perhaps I just have to suck it up that $$$ is going to drive people to keep food animal production in this limbo between farm-raised animals and cruelest of conditions limbo? As of right now, if nobody minds, I am going to continue asking questions and playing a skeptic. I would appreciate it nobody got upset with me for not seeing the world through Animal Science Major glasses. I may not be a walking encyclopedia on factory farm production, but I am making more of an effort than someone who picks up a steak from the grocery store and has absolutely no idea where it came from.

 

[libster06]

This is the funniest expression. Where did you pick it up? It's a first time for me!

Lol it's a combination of my upbringing and snicklefritz vernacular... My mom has always used the expression "well I'll be double dipped!". And I just added that last half because i am a goof troop You're more than welcome to use it and continue spreading the joy!

 

[Esidence]

When you become a veterinarian you will be expected to have an opinion (with reasoning) on these issues. People will come to you with these concerns even if you are a Joe Shmoe urban general practitioner. Veterinarians are viewed as having information about almost all aspects of animal sciences. “Fair” or not is irrelevant and these are the facts. Also the extremists will attack you for what you do and believe, and they aren’t going to be as nice as we are. I don’t think anyone here has been too mean, but people do want to make sure you’re as well informed as possible. In the real world, “I didn’t take that class” or “I’m from a small city” won’t work and you’ll lose credibility. This is just how the world views us right now.


To answer one question: YES, the reason for (almost) everything is money.

 

[Trematode]

Aren't you the poster who took my original comment out of context, attacked me because you were "tired", and started this whole debate?
Yup, you are so "nice".
Sorry I decided to be a biology major instead of an animal science major. Sorry I am not in vet school yet. Sorry my main interests are SA, wildlife and research. Sorry that I do not eat meat and that nobody has picked with me about factory farming since high school. Nobody can be well educated on every single thing out there. As far as I am concerned, it is okay to say "I don't know" every once in a while.

 

[LetItSnow]

When you become a veterinarian you will be expected to have an opinion (with reasoning) on these issues. People will come to you with these concerns even if you are a Joe Shmoe urban general practitioner. Veterinarians are viewed as having information about almost all aspects of animal sciences.

... which is something I'm pretty happy to help correct by saying "You know, that's not really my area of expertise." I'm not going to perpetuate the myth that every vet is intimately familiar with every aspect of animal husbandry, animal health, animal medicine, and animal welfare by attempting to offer an authoritative opinion on any question just because it relates vaguely to an 'animal' and 'science'.

In the real world, “I didn’t take that class” or “I’m from a small city” won’t work and you’ll lose credibility. This is just how the world views us right now.

What loses you credibility is tossing out an opinion about something you don't know much about - most people are pretty quick to pick up on B.S.

 

[Trematode]

Also, I asked about the Grandin book... can anyone throw me a title? I got a giftcard for the bookstore and would like to read something other than Michael Crichton.

There are like 6 books here: http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books...e|4745919302&gclid=CNOcxIiasq4CFRQUKgodP3nGSg
If you want me to be "better educated" you could at least throw me a bone.

 

[Esidence]

First off, I did originally attack you, and subsequently apologized for it. However my last post wasn’t. I simply state my perception of how the world views us. I’ve been asked about how I felt about these subjects and why in SA practices where I’ve worked. I wasn’t faulting you for not having those experiences or classes under your belt, nor has anyone (least of all I) said anything about your choice to be a veggie, and finally I was a biology major too for the record. This time you’re over reacting.

Second, I honestly don’t know what debate I started? Whether to believe the media and pictures over the literature and experiences?

Third is I don’t know what you mean by “nobody has picked with me about factory farming since high school” means?

Temple Grandin book: “My life in pictures” explains some of it and give a nice intro to some of meat production


LetItSnow: I absolutely agree that saying "I don't know" is better than making something up. I wasn't suggesting to have an answer to everything when people walk in the door, but having ideas about common cultural animal questions I think is expected. Also knowing where to go for factual information is good, being able to synthesize the ideas are a plus, and being willing to continue learning is needed.

 

[Trematode]

Seriously, at this point in my life, if you want me to be well versed in the NA standards in slaughterhouses, you are going to have to find someone in that industry to take me on. The closest thing that I have been offered is to work on an WWOOF farm (which is as far left as you can get from factory farming). Things are different here when it comes to animal production and vet school admissions. Why is it such a big deal that I am uncomfortable working in the food production industry? Why should I go out of my way right now (when I should be focusing on getting good grades) to try to prove something to a group of strangers on the internet?

Aquaculture is one of the specialties at the vet school I have applied to. Is it a crime that I have had more exposure to and thus know more about the aquaculture industry than the food production industry? How much do you know about the aquaculture industry? Not that much? Well, why don't you hop on Google Scholar so you know what to say when someone asks you about the health issues, environmental issues and practices of farm raised fish? I live on the east coast. Fisheries are kind of a big deal.

I am not an ignorant, stuck-up person. I have a LOT of questions stuck in my head that I would like to ask and would love to see how farming is done in MY region. Why should I go extremely out of my way to find that out if A) it is not required for animal experience, B) it will not be brought up in an interview and C) it will be brought up in vet school. What is wrong with spending my free time and school time focusing on my interests: shelter medicine, SA, wildlife and parasitology?

The attitude that I am going to fail horribly as a vet because I do not know enough information about factory farming procedures in the US is really annoying. Have you ever brought your pet into an SA vet and quizzed them on their knowledge of factory farming procedures? Seriously? I know a vet that got accepted with 20 hrs SA and 20 hrs LA. I highly doubt she spent hours of her free time getting into the nitty gritty of a field she was not interested in. Then she went on to emergency. "Doctor, doctor, my dog was hit by a car! Before I let you treat her, HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT FACTORY FARMING, HMM?" .

 

[alaskandream]

Also, I asked about the Grandin book... can anyone throw me a title? I got a giftcard for the bookstore and would like to read something other than Michael Crichton.

There are like 6 books here: http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books...e|4745919302&gclid=CNOcxIiasq4CFRQUKgodP3nGSg
If you want me to be "better educated" you could at least throw me a bone.

Hey trematode, one good one that I read from Temple Grandin is: Animals Make Us Human-

Another one that I'm reading now and I'd also recommend just as a fun, interesting read is by James Herriot: All Creatures Great and Small

I don't know how any other books by either of them are, but I enjoy these ones =P

 

[Trematode]

I have read the first 2 and a half James Herriot books. Love them.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Seriously, at this point in my life, if you want me to be well versed in the NA standards in slaughterhouses, you are going to have to find someone in that industry to take me on. The closest thing that I have been offered is to work on an WWOOF farm (which is as far left as you can get from factory farming). Things are different here when it comes to animal production and vet school admissions. Why is it such a big deal that I am uncomfortable working in the food production industry? Why should I go out of my way right now (when I should be focusing on getting good grades) to try to prove something to a group of strangers on the internet?

Aquaculture is one of the specialties at the vet school I have applied to. Is it a crime that I have had more exposure to and thus know more about the aquaculture industry than the food production industry? How much do you know about the aquaculture industry? Not that much? Well, why don't you hop on Google Scholar so you know what to say when someone asks you about the health issues, environmental issues and practices of farm raised fish? I live on the east coast. Fisheries are kind of a big deal.

I am not an ignorant, stuck-up person. I have a LOT of questions stuck in my head that I would like to ask and would love to see how farming is done in MY region. Why should I go extremely out of my way to find that out if A) it is not required for animal experience, B) it will not be brought up in an interview and C) it will be brought up in vet school. What is wrong with spending my free time and school time focusing on my interests: shelter medicine, SA, wildlife and parasitology?

The attitude that I am going to fail horribly as a vet because I do not know enough information about factory farming procedures in the US is really annoying. Have you ever brought your pet into an SA vet and quizzed them on their knowledge of factory farming procedures? Seriously? I know a vet that got accepted with 20 hrs SA and 20 hrs LA. I highly doubt she spent hours of her free time getting into the nitty gritty of a field she was not interested in. Then she went on to emergency. "Doctor, doctor, my dog was hit by a car! Before I let you treat her, HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT FACTORY FARMING, HMM?" .

 

[Trematode]

Am I the one doing the punching, the one getting punched, the ref, the cameraman or the audience?

 

[Dsmoody23]

You are most certainly the puncher. Badass.

 

[Minnerbelle]

why doesn't that ref just wear a crotch guard? (jockstrap, is that what you call it?)

 

[lostbunny]

why doesn't that ref just wear a crotch guard? (jockstrap, is that what you call it?)

so they can do that^ instead. *insert Michael Jackson--->* Ahh he he!!

 

[StartingoverVet]

why doesn't that ref just wear a crotch guard? (jockstrap, is that what you call it?)

You need much education in this subject.
Jockstrap = support i.e don't bounce
Crotch guard(cup) = protection. i.e don't hurt

 

[Minnerbelle]

i like the michael jackson theory

You need much education in this subject.
Jockstrap = support i.e don't bounce
Crotch guard(cup) = protection. i.e don't hurt

huh... who knew.

(seriously i need to get off my butt and start studying or something. clearly i am not being very productive)

 

[Trematode]

I *did* look up an audit Temple Grandin did on a few Canadian slaughterhouses back in 2003, which is a little dated. It gave me a good idea about her methods and I am actually pretty curious to learn more about it.
Yet... dun dun dun... when these slaughterhouses "failed" some part of the audit, the accompanying description was enough to make me cringe. IE: "At one plant an employee attempted to bleed a fully sensible, bellowing beef animal that had been hoisted onto the rail".
The record is still pretty impressive for 9 years ago, but I am still uncomfortable working in an industry that slaughters animals for food. If I did, I would be working as a vet that visits local family farms (which are on the decline) and ask that people support farmers in their community rather than go to the grocery store and purchase beef that was mass produced thousands of miles away. I had the opportunity to do a farm call with a vet that works with local farmers, and it was sad to see him point out all of the property that used to be farmland 15, 20, 25 years ago and could no longer make a go of it.

And now pretty curious as to how a bleeding animal got loose and scared a group of vet students if Grandin's methods were being performed. Hopefully that was a fluke.

http://www.grandin.com/survey/canadian.welfare.audits.html
And while I was searching for this audit, another article of interest came up that I will have a look at.

 

[Bisbee]

You need much education in this subject.
Jockstrap = support i.e don't bounce
Crotch guard(cup) = protection. i.e don't hurt

Girls will be girls (we never needed to know this stuff).

 

[yann]

I don't think I explained my previous post very well since all the responses I'm getting isn't what I aimed to suggest. It is a bad idea anyways, and in no way did I mean to disregard the physiological pain a being goes through. At all. I was basing my thoughts into words here from an Anthro class I took back in undergrad that really got me interested in the science of it. The course dealt with Marx and other renowned sociologists and anthropologists, and basically someone (forgot who, don't think it was Marx) wrote an entire dawdling book about the consciousness of a language. This book, despite mostly being extremely boring and pain-staking to read, grasped my attention and changed my perspectives on things. Specific example which is not at all related to vet med or medicine in general, "hate crime" is a word that exists here in the US but it does not exist in Japan. Does not mean it does not exist, but because Japan is such a monoethnic country, the idea that one would feel an extreme negative emotion to a certain race and act against them is not a common thought or case. Of course there are minorities in the country like Koreans and Chinese and other foreigners living in Japan as a citizens, and there are extremists that treat them harshly; but because the term "hate crime" does not exist in Japan, the concept does not exist, therefore, there is no existence of it in that country. My attempt was to start a discussion bringing the word "pain" into a word-based-only existence, which was an epic fail. I've completely disregarded the physiological existence of it. And among fellow science major SDN-ers, of course this would not turn out into a discussion I hoped. My bad.

Anyways I will go back to reading all other posts here and would love to go back into the discussion after I'm done studying for tomorrow's quiz and next week's test. Which means I will be back again next weekend, and by then this whole discussion may be over.