can we talk about urorad?

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radonc

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http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=950CE6DA1E3EF932A35751C1A9609C8B63

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Profit and Questions as Doctors Offer Prostate Cancer Therapy

By STEPHANIE SAUL
Published: December 1, 2006

The nearly 240,000 men in the United States who will learn they have prostate cancer this year have one more thing to worry about: Are their doctors making treatment decisions on the basis of money as much as medicine?

Among several widely used treatments for prostate cancer, one stands out for its profit potential. The approach, a radiation therapy known as I.M.R.T., can mean reimbursement of $47,000 or more a patient.

That is many times the fees that urologists make on other accepted treatments for the disease, which include surgery and radioactive seed implants. And it may help explain why urologists have started buying multimillion-dollar I.M.R.T. equipment and software, and why many more are investigating it as a way to increase their incomes.

Already, dozens of the nation's 10,000 urologists have purchased the technology for intensity modulated radiation therapy, which is what I.M.R.T. stands for, and some of them are recommending its use for growing numbers of their patients.

Critics see a potential conflict of interest on the part of urologists, the specialists who typically help prostate patients choose a course of treatment. The critics say that urologists who can profit from the new form of therapy may be less likely to recommend other proven approaches, which for some older men can involve forgoing treatment altogether.

If the patient has insurance, the added expense may not be a concern for him. And like the other treatments, the new therapy can be highly effective. But doctors say that prostate cancer treatments should be tailored to the individual.

Compared with seed implants, for example, I.M.R.T. involves a large time commitment, requiring patients to visit a radiation center 45 times over the course of nine weeks.

More worrisome for some experts is a concern that the multiple-beam radiation of I.M.R.T. may raise the risk of secondary cancers, although no medical studies have proved such a link.

Helping drive the trend is a Texas company, Urorad Healthcare, which sells complete packages of I.M.R.T. technology and services, and hopes to persuade even more urologists to buy them.

''Join the Urorad team and let us show your group how Urorad clients double their practice's revenue,'' the company says in a marketing pitch to doctors on its Web site.

Urologists who have purchased the new multiple beam systems say they are embracing a superior way to treat prostate cancer. But because there is little research directly comparing I.M.R.T. with the other treatments, there is little consensus among urologists about which approach is best.

That is why some doctors worry that I.M.R.T. may be emerging as yet another example of the way financial incentives can influence medical decisions in this nation's for-profit health care economy.

''It's all money-driven, and it's a shame medicine has come down to this,'' said Dr. Brian Moran, a radiation oncologist in Chicago, who specializes in radioactive-seed implants, in which tiny radioactive pellets are placed into the prostate. His clinic is paid $15,000 or less for the procedure, with the urologist on the case getting about $900.

Dr. Eli Glatstein, a professor of radiation oncology at the University of Pennsylvania, said he was concerned that some urologists would steer patients to the new treatment because they owned the technology and could greatly profit from its use.

''It's not illegal to do this,'' Dr. Glatstein said. ''That doesn't make it right.''

I.M.R.T. was introduced in the mid-1990s and has proved useful for delivering multiple beams of radiation to a small area while avoiding healthy tissue. Like other treatments for prostate cancer, though, it has possible side effects, potentially including impotence.

The one certainty about I.M.R.T. is that for doctors who own the technology, it can be much more lucrative than alternative treatments. Medicare and other insurers typically pay urologists only $2,000 or less for performing surgery to remove the prostate or for implanting radioactive seeds. The insurers say the much higher I.M.R.T. payments, which in some cases exceed $50,000, are based on the technology's cost.

Leslie Norwalk, Medicare's chief administrator, said she was not worried that doctors who invest in I.M.R.T. would use it on patients who require no treatment.

''You're just not going to do beam therapy on someone who doesn't need it,'' Ms. Norwalk said in a telephone interview.

But because of the potential conflicts, urologist-owned I.M.R.T. is the type of arrangement that Medicare should be watching, she said.

Dr. Juan A. Reyna, president of a San Antonio urology group that was among the first to order I.M.R.T. technology in 2004, said that the revenue opportunities were a factor in the decision to buy it.

''These are the kind of things you have to do to be able to maintain yourself in practice,'' Dr. Reyna said, noting that Medicare has been cutting back payments for other forms of prostate cancer treatment. Dr. Reyna says he recommends the treatment more frequently now because he is convinced of its value.

Some other urologists, though, say they are uncomfortable with the I.M.R.T. ownership trend. For example, Dr. Robert Waldbaum of Manhasset, N.Y., said he declined to go along when a large group of Long Island urologists invested in the technology, fearing it might influence his advice to patients.

''I felt in my own mind that it would be a conflict of interest to me,'' said Dr. Waldbaum, the former chairman of urology at North Shore University Hospital, who is in private practice.

Varian Medical Systems, a leading maker of the technology, still sells it mainly to hospitals and free-standing radiation oncology centers. But it has sold about 20 I.M.R.T.-capable machines to urology groups, according to a company spokesman, Spencer Sias. Typically, doctor groups pool their money to buy the technology.

''There's definitely heightened interest from urology practices in this,'' Mr. Sias said.

Helping drive that interest is Urorad, based in McAllen, Tex., which has been aggressively marketing I.M.R.T. to urologists across the country, who must either hire a radiation oncologist or form a partnership with one. The company helps arrange a complete setup as well as consulting services to calculate radiation doses for patients, with costs to get started estimated at about $3 million.

Five Urorad centers are already operating around the country, according to Dr. Mark L. Harrison, the chief executive, who said that contracts had been signed for six more.

The majority of prostate cancers are caught early, owing mainly to use of the prostate-specific antigen test. Still, prostate cancer is the second-leading cause of cancer-related deaths in men, after lung cancer.

The prostate cancers that are detected early have several treatment alternatives with high success rates -- among them surgery, radioactive seed implants, and external radiation, like the multiple beam therapy.

In some cases, especially for older men, doctors recommend ''watchful waiting,'' or no treatment at all. An estimated 40 percent to 50 percent of men with the disease get surgery, which many doctors still consider the gold standard for a cure. But surgery also carries a risk of incontinence; up to 29 percent of men who have their prostates removed report wearing pads to keep dry, according to one large study.

As with surgery and seed implants, men treated with I.M.R.T. run a risk of eventual impotence. A recent study at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, which has conducted much of the early research onthe therapy, found that eight years after treatment, 49 percent of men who were potent before treatment developed erectile dysfunction.

Compared with surgery, neither seed implants nor I.M.R.T. carry high risks of incontinence, though. And the arguments in favor of the multiple beam therapy include a new research study indicating that urinary complications, like painful urination and a narrowing of the urethra, are lower with I.M.R.T. than with seed implants.

Depending on the region of the country, the owner of an office-based I.M.R.T. system can be reimbursed up to $47,000 for a nine-week course of daily treatments, including the physician's fee, which often goes to the radiation oncologist.

Medicare and commercial insurers have said the reimbursements are based not only on the cost of the software and equipment, but on the complicated mathematical calculations required in administering the treatments.

Yet Dr. Ivan A. Brezovich, a physicist at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, said that delivering multiple beam therapy to the prostate was a relatively simple procedure compared with using it on more complex conditions like head and neck cancers.

''You can do it almost on an assembly-line basis,'' Dr. Brezovich said.

Medicare, which has reviewed the issue, is scheduled to begin reducing I.M.R.T. reimbursements. For example, reimbursement in the Atlanta area, considered close to the national median, is scheduled to be cut by 8.2 percent, from $39,000 this year to $35,800 in 2007.

But because Medicare or another insurer pays for the treatment, cost is often not a factor for patients as they assess their options.

Leonard Streim, 58, a clinical psychologist in Deer Park, N.Y., learned he had prostate cancer this year. He said he researched various options, including seed implants and surgery, before deciding on multiple beam treatment, which was covered by his medical insurance.

Mr. Streim said his side effects were minimal.

''As compared to surgery, as compared to walking around being radioactive, I don't think there's any choice there, at least not for me,'' he said.

His urologist is a member of a large Long Island group, Integrated Medical Professionals, formed in July by 13 different practices with a total of more than 30 doctors. Now the largest urology group on Long Island, it pooled its resources to invest in an image-guided I.M.R.T. system, which uses markers implanted in the prostate to more accurately direct the beams of radiation. Some say that the group's formation has contributed to a shift in prostate cancer treatment in the region.

Fewer patients in the area now appear to be getting seed implants, according to Dr. Jay Bosworth, a radiation oncologist involved with another Long Island group of diagnostic and treatment centers whose services include I.M.R.T.

According to three hospitals where doctors in the Integrated Medical Professionals group have practiced, about 300 seed procedures were performed in 2005 compared with about 100 this year through mid-October.

Dr. Deepak A. Kapoor, Integrated Medical's chief executive, said the downturn in seed implants began before his group's formation, as urologists began to recognize the benefits of I.M.R.T. He denied that financial incentives were a driving force.

''All of our physicians are required to discuss all available options with every patient,'' Dr. Kapoor said.

One of Dr. Kapoor's Long Island patients, Daniel Staiano of Massapequa, N.Y., who is covered by Medicare, said he was not concerned to learn that his urologist had a financial stake in the therapy.

Mr. Staiano, 75, was one of several patients treated by I.M.R.T. in Plainview, N.Y., who said they suffered only minor side effects after the nine-week course of radiation.

''This treatment is fabulous,'' said Mr. Staiano, a retired tape editor for NBC, who said that his side effects were minimal. ''If I ever get cancer again,'' he said, ''this is the way I want to go.''

Side Effects

Articles in this series are examining how monetary considerations can influence the ways doctors conduct business and practice medicine.

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Yeah, I read the article as well. It seems to be questioning the motive of physicians who own their own IMRT machines and may take the increased reimbursement rates for IMRT into consideration when planning prostate patients rather than pure clinical concerns. I laughed a bit because it was all about urologists buying these machines and hiring radiation oncologists to plan the patients.

From a clinical standpoint, I think IMRT for prostate only makes sense if you're doing daily image guidance (either IMRT with gold seeds and daily port films or Tomotherapy). There is ample evidence now that the prostate moves an inch or more both interfraction and even intrafraction. Doing IMRT and only weekly port films does not address prostate motion, undoubtedly misses GTV more often than "old-time" fields, and simply jacks up the cost without providing clinical benefit, IMHO. Once dose escalation becomes the standard for prostate, daily image guidance will become even more essential.

You'll have to make up your own mind about physicians owning the equipment they use.
 
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1565524,00.html

Basically, private venture companies "siphon" the money-making parts of a general hospital and build free-standing centers to make money.

Let's say a general hospital has the following depts:

- Int Med-break even?
- Surgery--making $
- ENT-?
- Orthopedics--making $
- Neurosurgery--making $
- CVT--making $
- Ob-Gyn-?
- Neurology-?
- Pathology-?
- Rad Onc-making $
- Radiology-making $
- Psychiatry-losing $
- Pediatrics-losing $

- Lab-making$

etc and etc.

In order to keep a general hospital "alive" the money making depts cover the deficits for money-losing depts. And that is important to keep general hospitals going.

However, when private ventures build free-standing "money-making" centers like:
- Heart Hosp
- Rad Onc Centers (UroRad, US Oncology are prime examples)
- Orthopedics Hosp
- Radiology Imaging Centers.

These free-standing "Specialy Hospitals/Clinics" basically "bleed" the general hospitals to death.

CMS is well aware of this issue! We will see if the governement wakes up to this problem. Free-standing Specialy clinics are a disease in this country.
 
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Some tremendously interesting articles, I particularly enjoyed the Time article. From my observations, it seems like the majority (if not vast majority) of RadOnc residents wind up in these Speciality Hospitals/Clinics -- the compensation is just too much of a lure to keep many in academics.
 
i think the problem arises when urologists steer patients to XRT when they own the machines, instead of RP or nerve sparing prostatectomy, even if it is in the best interest of the patient.

not sure about other people, but at our institution, we recommend young patients (ie < 65) with no to minimal comorbidities to undergo prostatectomy if they have low (and some int risk) prostate ca. i think since the data for surgery is much longer than that of XRT, and since no head-to-head RCT are available, this is reasonable. if private urologists feel making 40-60K on a patient via XRT vs 5k via prostatectomy because it is in the best interest of the patient, then I am okay with this. however, if they refer patients to radiotherapy machines they own for monetary reasons, then it raises some flags. of course, no urologist who owns a linac will admit to the financial aspect of while making recs...
 
often the choice shouldnt be sx versus IMRT. Radonc should be making the radoc decisions.
 
usually we only see early stage pts because the pts self-refer themselves to us.

what is worse is when urologists make radonc decisions...
 
patients are not typically very good at refering themselves in teh protstate situation- patients however completely shaped the whole acoustic neuroma practice. anyway at least when there new "techniques" they get excited and ask about it. so that's good.
 
The monetization of medicine is a bad, bad thing. Being able to get reimbursed on the technical and professional fee creates very strong incentives to overtreat. I know we are free-market and all, but cancer seems like it should be a little different. The idea of 'centers of excellence' and 'NCI designated comprehensive cancer centers' logically improve outcomes. No way to test that, really, but I'd guess outcomes were better at places that do more of any given thing.

I feel like I see strange things out in the community (i.e. weird fractionation for palliative treatments) that seem like nothing more than a way to squeeze a few more dollars out of the system. Also, starting to drive me nuts, is these stand-alone CyberKnife centers. WellStar out in Georgia came and did SRS training at Pitt and now have one page ads in airline magazines about how they can cure cancers. Very deceiving, and very profit-minded. We have a PET-CT scanner now, and I feel like every patient that we can get reimbursed for gets one. At $11k a pop. That NY Times article was disgusting. $47k for an IMRT prostate? 3 months in, that's about the only thing I'm comfortable planning without assistance and that's what the charge is!

I don't know. All of this leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I have a young, idealistic attending, and I feel that every single decision we make is dependent on one thing: does it benefit the patient? I know he makes salary + production, but it seems like there are people left that aren't seeing dollar signs when a patient walks in the door. There is stuff about practicing at an academic center that drives me absolutely nuts, but I feel like it may be one of the few ways to stay somewhat 'pure'.

-S
 
We have a PET-CT scanner now, and I feel like every patient that we can get reimbursed for gets one. At $11k a pop. That NY Times article was disgusting. $47k for an IMRT prostate? 3 months in, that's about the only thing I'm comfortable planning without assistance and that's what the charge is!

-S

I think things quickly can snowball with over quotes and the like. FOr instance, I had a friend who got a Pet-Ct for an experimental condition. As it was not approved she almost ate the bill of $6000. I think that by the time insurance companies reimburse it is more like $3000. So I am not sure if the IMRT charges are "sticker price?" or if it is really more like half that really.

However, sounds like a deal compared to surgery. 8.5 weeks of IMRT, $47K, a life time of not peeing all over yourself and maintaining erectile function .... Priceless.
 
"However, sounds like a deal compared to surgery. 8.5 weeks of IMRT, $47K, a life time of not peeing all over yourself and maintaining erectile function .... Priceless."

At the risk of offending my kinfolk and cheering up the surgeons: show me the data? If the money is going towards preserving that function (i.e. potency, continence), and that the benefit over surgery is significantly better, I'm all for it. $47k, $250k, whatever - let the patient decide what dollar amount is worth preserving those functions ... In all honesty, I want to be the "Defender of the Erection". I can't find any prospective data that proves that IMRT maintains erectile function better than other treatments. I know that retrospective data shows that it is possible ... come on - we are oncologists - we need better than that! As far as peeing all over yourself, I think the case was (sort of) made for that with 3D-CRT, which I believe costs far less.

This is a lot of money at stake for the surgeons to be making the decisions on their patients for their own machines. And the same for us - it shouldn't come down to the fact that we own the machines. It should be what is best for each individual patient.

-S
 
This is why monetizing health care is so risky...patients are NOT informed consumers, able to rationally decide their care; that's why they have to trust their doctors. ( see Denberg et al. Cancer. 2006 Aug 1;107(3):620-30 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16802287&dopt=Citation for how pts really make decisions-scary).


The other thing that happens when Urology groups hire out Radiation Oncologists for UroRad (as here in San Antonio) is that, by developing a get-em-in-get-em-out"factory" approach to IMRT, it gets boring quick...all you do is approve dosimetrists plans for prostate after prostate. Additionally, some guys who've moonlighted (moonlit?) at these "Rad Onc-in-a-box" places feel that they get treated like a tech more than a consulting MD... the urologists involved in UroRad seem to see it as a business, not a medical, practice.
 
Just as for diagnostic radiologists, "self referral" issues are potentially a huge problem for radiation oncologists (both ethically and financially). See below for the official ASTRO opinion on the NY Times article.


December 8, 2006 Letter to the New York Times Editor

The New York Times
[email protected]

Dear Editor,

In her December 1, 2006, article "Profit and Questions on Prostate Cancer Therapy," Stephanie Saul discussed issues arising from a growing number of urologists purchasing radiation therapy facilities. This practice allows referring physicians to profit directly from recommending radiation therapy for prostate cancer, potentially influencing treatment advice to the detriment of patients seeking unbiased opinions about their treatment options. Ms. Saul quotes recent sales pitches aimed at urologists (surgeons who specialize in treatment of urinary tract problems) encouraging them to double their revenue by purchasing radiation oncology equipment which the radiation oncologists (cancer specialists who are trained to deliver radiation therapy for cancers throughout the body) use deliver intensity modulated radiation therapy (IMRT), a technologically sophisticated form of radiation therapy delivery.

The American Society for Therapeutic Radiology and Oncology, the professional and scientific organization that includes most practicing radiation oncologists, agrees with the concerns raised in Ms. Saul's article. ASTRO strongly believes that financial incentives should never be allowed to influence a doctor's judgment and that it is unethical for physicians to create business enterprises whose primary purpose is to financially reward doctors for referring patients. ASTRO strongly supports public and private sector initiatives that address inappropriate physician self-referral. We look forward to working with the new Congress to address loopholes in current law that permit these types of self-serving business arrangements.

It must be noted that while radiation therapy may be costly, it is also cost-effective. To put it in perspective, the total amount Medicare Part B paid for all professional and technical radiation oncology services in 2005&#8212;including IMRT and all other forms of radiation therapy delivered for cancer treatment&#8212;was $1.4 billion. This was less than the $1.5 billion Medicare paid for a single drug, Procrit, which is used to relieve symptoms of anemia caused by cancer and its treatment, but does not contribute to its cure. Our concern is not with the efficacy of IMRT but with the fact that it is being recommended by physicians not trained in its use over other established therapies such as surgery or radioactive seed implants and primarily for personal financial motives.

As physicians, our patients trust us to help them cure their disease. We believe patients should be free to seek independent opinions from physicians without worrying that those physicians may have competing financial interests. Our patients depend upon the integrity as well as the professional skills of the physicians to whom they entrust their lives.

K. Kian Ang, M.D., Ph.D., Louis B. Harrison, M.D., and Patricia J. Eifel, M.D.
Chair, President and President-elect
American Society for Therapeutic Radiology and Oncology
 
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What a great letter! Don't really know who that person is, but really impressed with what they wrote.
-S
 
What a great letter! Don't really know who that person is, but really impressed with what they wrote.


...At the risk of offending my kinfolk and cheering up the surgeons: show me the data? If the money is going towards preserving that function (i.e. potency, continence), and that the benefit over surgery is significantly better, I'm all for it. $47k, $250k, whatever - let the patient decide what dollar amount is worth preserving those functions ... In all honesty, I want to be the "Defender of the Erection". I can't find any prospective data that proves that IMRT maintains erectile function better than other treatments. I know that retrospective data shows that it is possible ... come on - we are oncologists - we need better than that!
-S

Sim,

You will learn about Kian Ang, Lou Harrison and Patty Eifel. They are some of the greats in Radiation Oncology, in particular, Patty Eifel is one of my heros.

That being said, there is ample data available on the relative benefits and risks of RP v. RT for low, intermediate and high risk prostate cancers. Zelefksy, Zeitman, D'Amico and others have published retrospective studies consisting of thousands of patients, which included side-effect and morbidity profiles.

They are not, to be sure randomized controlled prospective studies. Such studies have been attempted but have closed due to poor acrual. One of the more recent studies which is non-randomized, but comparative look at RP v. RT was published by the folks at the Cleveland Clinic, by Pat Kupelian. There are others available. Forman has published in Detroit looking at both neutron and photon treatments and the side effect profiles of these treatments.

A prospective longitudinal study in Europe was published by van Andel from Utrecht, I don't remember exactly where it was published, maybe at ESTRO. They looked at around 180 patients, I forget the exact number, and found RP patients had worse outcomes, primarily urinary incontinence and loss of erectile function while RT patients had more rectal complications, including bleeding and loose stools, and urinary frequency/urgency. As best I can recall the Utrecht group came to the conclusion that the RP patients fared worse in the incontinence arena. An earlier report was published by the Erasmus University, Rotterdam in JCO in 2001. This article I do have in my file. They looked at 278 patients RT v. RP with early localized prostate cancer and did do a prospective longitudinal study which included pre-treatment assessments as part of the European Randomized Trial of Screening for Prostate Cancer. They concluded that urinary incontinence was double in the RP group, sexual functioning complaints were double in the RP group and bowel function was worse in the RT group. See JCO 19:6:1619-1628(March,2001)

My thinking is that the primary difference between the two groups is primarily the side effect profile and the patient's peace of mind. Some think the best way to deal with a cancer is to cut it out and it's gone and that peace of mind is more important than erectile function. For those who don't want to go the depends route and would like an erection now and then, there's RT and they can live with the idea that not all of the prostate has cancer and the RT will be as good a treatment. For both, if impotence occurs, then the urologist gets another crack at them with the pump.

IMRT, properly and appropriately done, is simply a newer, and hopefully better way to deliver 3d conformal radiation therapy, taking into account the actual position of the prostate in the immediate pre-treatment timeframe. The same arguments were made in the late 1980s that 3d conformal therapy could not be shown to be an improvement. In fact, it did allow better dose profiles/reduced NTCP and is today the standard of care.

My $0.02 plus the European's published E0.02
 
Thanks for the information! I'm sure I'll end up reading those papers along the way ...

Another difficulty seems to be that when you ask someone face to face about their erectile function, they seem to make it sound better than it is. If you give them a form to fill out/circle ratings, they seem to rate things worse. Not a scientific assessment, but just what I've noticed when I've talked to patients ... So, unless it is known how ED is assessed, it's tough to really know outcomes. Sometimes I think that urologists have a little more comfort in asking the frank questions, rather than handing out a from (again, totally anecdotal). In most of the papers, there isn't a great description of how that is measured.

Please correct me if way off, b/c I'm not sure if this is the case, but here is my thinking. Anatomically, the nerves/vasculature that controls erectile function lie posterolaterally along the prostate. With IMRT/dose escalation, the goals seem to be restraining dose to the bladder and rectum, while continually increasing dose to the prostate. So, logically, the acute GU effects and the acute/late GI effects would be decreased, but the erectile function wouldn't really change. So, I guess ideally, unlesss we can use functional imaging to plan and treat the part of the prostate that has the cancer and spare the nerves/vessels, we can't really change that outcome.

-S
 
dont get too caught up in heros guys. there has been some great research by some of these folks but hero worship is not where its at. there is folly in everyone and greatness in some modest places.
by that token, ive seen on these boards dualing papers from time to time. people who want to make their points by out referencing each other. be wary of that. aside from what it says about the person doing it, the big picture gets lost for the trees (yes im mixing metaphores rather badly here) for the patients. and your heros would never ever do something so silly as that.
 
the data re: erections really is less convincing (the surgical data skewed by institution and rt data by pt population and limited f/u). that the urinary function control. IMRT data is also far to immature to be definitive but we do see less rectal compllications, taht we know. the other potential for imrt is doseescalation as we come off normal tissue. the issue here is not which is better, sx or rt. the issue is the purity of medical decision making when reimbursement is at hand. and its an old old battle that doesnt have an answer in ANY reimbursement system out there.
 
the data re: erections really is less convincing (the surgical data skewed by institution and rt data by pt population and limited f/u). that the urinary function control. IMRT data is also far to immature to be definitive but we do see less rectal compllications, taht we know. the other potential for imrt is doseescalation as we come off normal tissue. the issue here is not which is better, sx or rt. the issue is the purity of medical decision making when reimbursement is at hand. and its an old old battle that doesnt have an answer in ANY reimbursement system out there.

I agree. And IMRT is not without its problems. A poorly planned and well executed IMRT can introduce morbidity in areas not expected. The Dutch studies are, however, multi-institutional, which should help alleviate single institution biases. I think there were seven or eight regional cancer centers involved in both of the studies. Underperforming comparision arms are the bane of the literature and they are everywhere.

Of course, the current buzz is, "show me the evidence." And its not considered "evidence" unless it's a prospective randomized, mature trial with several thousand patients. But think on this. The first radiation therapy trials, or for that matter the first medical use of radiation was an anecdote. n=1.

What worries me more is the current rage of hypofractionation studies in the extreme. It will be years before we know the late effects of these trials, such as the Wisconsin dose escalation study where we are treating at 400+ cGy/fraction. These really scare me. We had a similar experience with neutrons in the early trials before we knew much about the RBE and we overdosed early patients. I still think neutrons have a potential use in selective cases. Neutrons essentially diminish repair effects to the point where two or three fractions are adequate, which I suppose can be carried over to extremely hypofractionated photons, but it still worries me. As with all studies, though, time will tell.

As for assessing erectile function, I usually ask. Straightforward. Do you have erections? If so, are they functional. If not and there are no known contraindications (CAD requiring nitro) do you want a trial of pick your favorite ED drug. Unfortunately, I've also discovered these drugs now have a street value, at least in my neck of the woods, which might color the answers too.
 
most patients are comfortable answering questions about erectile function and are relieved to address it. in fact ive never had a pt not want to deal with it.

It would behoove you to read the commentary on IMRT by Glatstein. Its a good counterpoint. IMRT is a good thing *if used correctly*
 
i was wondering if people wouldn't mind sharing their thoughts on these urorad centers going up. how has this (and the med onc-rad onc collaborations) changed the private practice landscape? are free-standing radonc centers a thing of the past? are private practice rad oncs always in fear of a hospital/surg center installing a linac right next door ... especially with such relaxed certificate of need regulations? and how has this altered earning potential in the field?
 
my feeling on this subject is that the urologists found a loophole in the stark law, and are abusing it to the fullest. there is nothing stopping them from beginning to treat breast, lung, h&n, or other sites... however, the start up costs are phenomenal. im not so worried about uro-rad type places. so, urologists are looking at alternative methods of making money in radiation oncology. ive heard first hand stories t(ie multiple accounts) that urologists are approaching hospitals and looking "to lease" machines for a certain amount of time each day AND collect technical revenues. this is legal. if the hospital does not comply, they threated to take their business to another hospital down the road, who is willing to participate in these antics.
 
So how do these centers work? Do the urologists do the treatment planning? Does there even have to be a radiation oncologist involved?
 
there's an interesting ny times article on it. there are some real issues involved.
 
So how do these centers work? Do the urologists do the treatment planning? Does there even have to be a radiation oncologist involved?

no, they hire [sellout] radoncs at top $$$ to do the planning and may hire locums physics staff (or fulltime) for everything else.
 
job posting from urorad from the astro website


29. Radiation Oncologist
5/21/2007
McAllen, TX, UNITED STATES
Urorad Healthcare
2nd radiation oncologist needed for busy radiation oncology practice in south Texas. Top 1% compensation. IMRT training required with Texas license.
 
isn't mcallen the city that atul gawande wrote about recently in the new yorker?
 
Looks like Urologists have thrown down the gauntlet. Found this in my mailbox this morning:


"We have seen the lengths to which (ASTRO) and others will go in trying to establish a monopoly over the delivery of radiation therapy... The voices of those who seek to monopolize these services have gone largely unopposed. Until now."
--Taken from Access to Integrated Cancer Care solicitation letter


As the letter indicates, ASTRO has made noticeable progress educating policymakers about the need to remove radiation therapy from the ancillary services loophole in the physician self-referral law. Our progress has elicited strong opposition, and this new group already has industry financial support and has enlisted a powerful DC lobbying firm.

AICC is asking physicians to contribute $750 to its cause, so ASTRO PAC is doing the same: Please contribute $750 (or more) to ASTRO PAC at www.astro.org/governmentrelations/astropac to help advance ASTRO's efforts to remove radiation therapy from the ancillary services exception!

Contributions to ASTRO PAC are not deductible for federal tax purposes. Contributions to ASTRO PAC are entirely voluntary. You have the right to refuse to contribute to ASTRO PAC without reprisal. Any suggested contribution levels are merely suggestions: you may contribute more or less than the suggested amounts or not at all. The American Society for Radiation Oncology will not favor or disadvantage anyone by reason of the amount of their contribution or decision not to contribute.

Link to letter: http://www.astro.org/GovernmentRelations/ASTROPAC/PACNews/documents/AICCletter2009.pdf
 
We have seen the lengths to which (ASTRO) and others will go in trying to establish a monopoly over the delivery of radiation therapy...


That is just amazing. Have you seen the lengths urologists will go to in order to preserve their monopoly on penile vacuum pumps? Or how cardiologists defend their right to treat heart disease...

I am astounded that elected officials in this country can be so naive to miss this as a violation of Stark laws. If industry wasnt pouring money into their pockets, the loophole would have been closed long ago. We should find out which companies are supporting this crap and piss on their cute little booths at ASTRO....
 
Kudos to NJ for considering a two-year ban on establishment of Urorad centers.

From todays ASTROgram:

N.J. senator introduces radiation oncology self-referral bill New Jersey State Sen. Robert Gordon (D) has introduced legislation strongly supported by ASTRO for a two-year moratorium on radiation oncology centers owned by non-radiation oncologists. The bill also would establish a task force to review the clinical and economic impact of non-radiation oncologists referring patients to radiation oncology centers in which they have an ownership interest. ASTRO has been partnering with local cancer center administrators and others to stop the recent explosion of self-referral centers opening in the state. The New Jersey effort is closely aligned with ASTRO's work to encourage Congress to end abuses of the physician self-referral law nationwide. It is expected that healthcare committees of the state legislature will consider the legislation next month. For more information, contact Dave Adler at [email protected].
 
Interesting article in the Red Journal this month.

"Integrated prostate cancer centers and over-utilization of IMRT: a close look at fee-for-service medicine in radiation oncology"

Article is attached.

A few interesting tidbits I did not know:

Definition of the Stark Law: "prohibits a physician from referring Medicare patients to a facility with which the physician (or an immediate family member) has a financial relationship through ownership or compensation."

So how can Urorad centers legally operate?

Because of the in-office ancillary exception which allows self-referral if the urologist has some supervisory or managerial role (check!) and the services are provided in a building provided by the urologist (double check!).

Per the article, urorads is a symptom of the fee-for-service model which promotes over-utiliziation.
 

Attachments

  • Falit Integrated Prostate Cancer Centers IJROBP 76-1285 2010.pdf
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How is the concern about urologist self-referral any different than some rad oncs doing all of their prostate cases (for example) on the tomo/IMRT/arc machine they recently bought just to pay for it?
 
How is the concern about urologist self-referral any different than some rad oncs doing all of their prostate cases (for example) on the tomo/IMRT/arc machine they recently bought just to pay for it?

Rad onc is a referral-based specialty. Rad oncs can't refer new patients to themselves.
 
Hmm... as bad as Urorad is, I think we as a specialty are acting a little bit 'holier than thou', because although we can't specifically refer to ourselves, if we own the machine, maybe we do 16fx for palliation instead of 10fx for a brain met and get that 4th OTV. Or using IMRT for something that clearly doesn't need it.

Honestly, I'm not sure what the difference is, and it feels a little uncomfortable to say we should be the only physician owners of linacs, and hence, the only physicians that can collect technical fees from them.

-S
 
Hmm... as bad as Urorad is, I think we as a specialty are acting a little bit 'holier than thou', because although we can't specifically refer to ourselves, if we own the machine, maybe we do 16fx for palliation instead of 10fx for a brain met and get that 4th OTV. Or using IMRT for something that clearly doesn't need it.

Honestly, I'm not sure what the difference is, and it feels a little uncomfortable to say we should be the only physician owners of linacs, and hence, the only physicians that can collect technical fees from them.

-S

I'm not uncomfortable with that at all. We're the only ones who have trained extensively in the appropriate use of linacs. Of course, the work-around that is used by urorads (hiring a staff rad onc) only exists to the extent that we are complicit in the practice.

Your other comment is fair, and there are certainly blatant examples of "profit before patients" to be seen, MIMA down here in FL being the most publicized recent case. Still, the ability to employ good staff members and provide good care IS contingent on your small business (i.e. clinic) remaining profitable. I have a problem with rampant over-utilization of IMRT for things that are easily treatable with a simple field arrangement, but I think dose/fractionation selection becomes an area where good intentions and profitable practice aren't necessarily incompatible. I don't mean palliative WBRT to 45 Gy, or 17 fx instead of 15 to land an extra OTV, but 30/15 instead of 30/10 to reduce potential late side effects is acceptable to me. You're absolutely correct that we should do a better job policing ourselves w/r/t more unsavory practices. I'd just remind all that generating modest profits (rather than obscene ones) allow us "greedy" doctors to provide a living for our "hard-working and underappreciated" ancillary staff, and hopefully to provide some charity care for those who require it.

(Quotes not directed at you, Simul. Just putting it in the context of the current populist stance on health care delivery.)
 
No, I'm with you, but I was thinking in terms of capital ownership by physicians in general. I'm fairly certain that physician owned and operated facilities (imaging, linacs, dialysis centers) have a higher utilization rate than those that are hospital/community owned. And that is where the discomfort lies - whenever anyone has the hammer, the world looks like a nail (a whole bunch of shiny, golden nails!)

I'd say if anyone should get to own the linac it's us, but at the same time, we have to pretty good about regulating ourselves. Even that rad-onc that is in Congress, Rep. Parker Griffith has come under fire for allegations of lengthening treatments/under-dosing to collect more technical revenue.

-S
 
We agree on the substantive parts of this issue. You know that I come into the discussion with the inherent bias of practicing in a physician-owned group, and that is probably reflected in my general view on things. I am painfully aware of the potential for abuse, as it is more or less rampant down here. The main issue IMO is not the presence of physician-owned practices, but rather the explosive and unregulated proliferation of them. If you ask whether I'd be a fan of introducing Certificate of Need (CON) down here, my answer would be hell yes. It would probably address quite a bit of this garbage, especially the urorads invasion.

I would point out that reverting all capital ownership over to hospitals/corporations does create it's own set of potential problems. Foremost among these is the diminished access to medical services that would result from consolidating them in a main hospital. Many docs in metropolitan/urban/suburban locations (i.e. most of them) wouldn't recognize this as a problem since such services appear to readily available. However, to use a rad onc related anecdote, our busiest clinic is in the rural area between Ocala and Homosassa Springs. Without the presence of this free-standing center, patients in that area would be left with a minimum 1.5 hour drive each way for radiation treatments. This illustrates another pretty good set of data, i.e. that mastectomy rates are higher in areas that are underserved by radiotherapy, since the commitment to 5-6.5 weeks of radiation after lumpectomy creates an untenable logistical burden on these patients.

This access issue is not unique to radiation oncology. The same can be said about imaging equipment, adequately supplied OR's etc. That's one reason why I think the CON concept (for all it's potential bureaucratic headaches) is a potentially appealing one. An entrepreneurial physician or group would not be barred from building a clinic in these areas, and it would benefit that community by serving a need. They'd just be barred from putting a 5th clinic in a town of 150,000.
 
That's a really good point. Didn't think of it that way. The way I was thinking about it, though, is having medical centers/hospitals/communities be the owners of free-standing centers rather than the physicians. Fully agree that it causes its own headaches - there is no perfect solution. And, really I'm not anti-capitalist :)

CONs are interesting, but there can be some unintended consequences: certain areas go underserved for years, groups with longer history tend to be protected from true market forces, and since the state is deciding who gets what and where there is hard core politicking involved, and it can become kind of messy.

For a recent example, North Carolina is a CON state and I interviewed with a group there. The state decided to allow another center to be opened, but it had to serve a underserved medical need and they were willing to take proposals from all comers. So, the private groups in the state, some corporate entities (USOnc), and the universities all put together their proposals and presented them to the state. The winner? Drumroll ... a Urorad group that is putting the center in ... Cary - one of the richest suburbs in the triangle - certainly not underserved by any means. So who knows whats happening when the bureaucrats are involved?

-S
 
Rad onc is a referral-based specialty. Rad oncs can't refer new patients to themselves.

Yes, but they can prescribe. I was actually referring to the over-utilization of things like IMRT, when another, less profitable rad treatment would be just as effective.

One of the things that comes up in physics circles sometimes is clinic ownership by physicists. I have no idea how common that is, but it seems to avoid this kind of conflict of interest, since physicists obviously cannot refer or prescribe.
 
The bottom line is, whoever owns the machines will collect the technical component. That in and of itself doesn't drive down the cost of health care delivery, since the money continues to be paid by Medicare/Insurance, it's only the recipient that differs. Costs only go down if, as Simul holds, a certain model (hospital ownership? CON?) reduces utilization of high dollar procedures. Alternatively, reimbursement for these procedures can just be cut (as was being threatened last year). This would reduce some of the impetus for urorads proliferation, but would also likely decrease capital expenditures across the board, since it would no longer make as much financial sense to invest millions in new technology with no good way to recoup one's investment.

Simul, your point on CON is also a very good one. All of these models have inherent pitfalls, and trading one model for another just exposes you to more of them.
 
The winner? Drumroll ... a Urorad group that is putting the center in ... Cary - one of the richest suburbs in the triangle - certainly not underserved by any means. So who knows whats happening when the bureaucrats are involved?

-S

That just makes me sick. Who wants to place bets that a handful of politicians had their campaign coffers substantially increase in the last month or two?
 
Not too distant future we will be paid per case which will eliminate much of the extra fractionation monkey business that goes on. There will be some sort of regulation on technology/geographical area which will make sure that technology is utilized fully but not overutilized and the technical fee will be adjusted so that not for profits will get reimbursed at better rates than for -profits.
While this may seem ominous to some, others will welcome taking care of patients, making good incomes and not the entrepreneureal environment which exists now to profit individuals without benefit to society as a whole
 
Not too distant future we will be paid per case which will eliminate much of the extra fractionation monkey business that goes on.

I imagine hypofractionation will become all the rage at that point.

There will be some sort of regulation on technology/geographical area which will make sure that technology is utilized fully but not overutilized and the technical fee will be adjusted so that not for profits will get reimbursed at better rates than for -profits.

You've described CON to a tee. See Simul's post above for the potential limitations. I agree that overutilization is a problem, and it behooves us as a specialty to do a better job of policing ourselves.

While this may seem ominous to some, others will welcome taking care of patients, making good incomes and not the entrepreneureal environment which exists now to profit individuals without benefit to society as a whole

See, this part bugs me. Over the past two decades, my "entrepreneureal" practice has spent literally tens of millions of dollars out-of-pocket to provide modern cancer care to an area where there would otherwise be none. Is the deus ex machina you describe above going to start buying linacs and paying for service contracts as it ratchets down reimbursement? I'd also ask you to define "benefit to society as a whole", because a brief but by no means inclusive list of beneficiaries of our entrepreneurealism are the 120 families of nurses, therapists, PAs and ancillary staff for whom we provide a good living, thousands of patients who have been cured or palliated under our care, and thousands more that we have treated according to the established standard of care without regard to their insurance status or ability to pay. Not because it's profitable, but because it's RIGHT. Oh yeah, the docs do OK, too. We could do better if we cherry-picked good insurance and high reimbursement treatments, but we'd rather make a modest profit and benefit more individuals in the community than try to fleece the system. See, capitalism works when one doesn't lose sight of high ethical standards.
 
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