PhD/PsyD Career Advice Sought/Two Pre-Doctoral Internships Possible? (CAPIC & APA)

[56300-Zpn]

Hi SDN members,

I have just very recently discovered these forums and wish I had done so much earlier in my career. Anyways, I hope there are some generous people out there willing to share stories/advice. I need some career assistance as I believe I have made several mistakes and would like the opinions of members on how to best rectify them:

Background: I am the first member of my family to go to college let alone graduate school. So I have had to learn along the way so go easy on me please ^_^. I obtained my BA in psychology from a state university and proceeded to CSPP to earn a masters in clinical psychology and am completing a PSYD. I am currently finishing up my clinical dissertation in the next few months and will have my requirements met for graduation. I completed a practicum and a 2 year half time CAPIC internship (all unpaid). My school decided to emphasize APA internships half way through the program (and change the structure by adding 1 year for those that wanted to pursue it) before I even began to realize the difference. Most peers simply told me it would not make that much of a difference and I also did not have the money to move. In short, in my naiveté I moved forward not realizing the future ramifications of that decision. As it turns out, reality hit when planning to obtain hours. I am not eligible to apply for APA post docs and can’t really locate a post doc that I can apply for that pays. I am considering accepting a position as a counselor (BA level < 40,000) and becoming a psych assistant on the side. I am willing to accept a non paying postdoc with excellent training if someone can recommend some, but having the “privilege” of working for free with a graduate degree gets old if you know what I mean. Here are some questions I have.

- ***Even though it may be undesirable for some, is it still possible to obtain a pre-doctoral APA internship even though I already completed a CAPIC pre-doctoral internship? I am willing to postpone graduation. Even if it is only a remote possibility please let me know.***


- If the above question is no, what realistic way is there to obtain a APA postdoctoral fellowship without an APA pre-doctoral internship.


- Does anyone know a professional that specifically specializes in doctoral level psychology resume/c.v. building? I would ideally like to specialize in clinical neuropsychology even if it means spending additional years of training. I was unfortunately unable to secure placements that emphasized this.


- Can you send me the names of all the non-paid postdoctoral internships/fellowships with excellent training opportunities? I would like to see what there is out there.

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[erg923]

Honestly, you are trying climb Mount Everest with rock climbing prep here.

No, it's not possible for you to apply for internship again. There is already an imbalance, so they don't let people "double dip" for obvious reasons. This is an official APPIC policy.

Most post doc are not APA accredited, which is fine. Doesn't really matter at the post doc stage. Most do require having an APA internship though. But certainly people DO secure post docs without approved internships. I would assume it's just a matter of luck and stats...getting picked for that one that doesn't. Are you in the post doc list serve?

The neuropsychology thing is going to be especially tough given these circumstances. You are trying to break into the most competitive specialty with the least competitive credentials (professional school, psyd, no npsych experience, and an unaccredited internship). Gaining entry to a real npsych post doc is really not realistic at this point. You may be able to arrange one in private practice, but that likely not gonna to make you competitive for neuropsychological work outside of the private practice setting.

I am not aware of unpaid stuff, and I really couldn't justify promoting or advocating such a training paradigm anyway. I would be more than willing to message with you and look at your CV though.

 

[WisNeuro]

Sorry OP, this is the reason we always tell people to look ahead when contemplating grad school. That unaccredited CAPIC internship is going to limit you heading forward. As far as neuropsychology, that's a deeper hole. Do you have an extensive background in it already, or are you just getting in? If you don't have the background, quality postdocs will be that much harder to find. It is a vertical model, but by this point you should have quite a bit of knowledge and experience in the area. You're ineligible for the VA I believe, so that wipes a good number off the table. Best bet would be to look for something in California I presume, places there are more willing to accept the CAPIC. Going to be slim pickings though, and I would worry about getting a quality training experience to become a competent neuropsychologist.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I agree with the above posters. As erg mentioned, APPIC generally prohibits folks who've already completed an internship from even applying for another one (you can look through APPIC's website yourself to find the specific policies). Additionally, even if they somehow allowed you an exception, APA-accredited internship sites are so competitive these days that I'd imagine having already completed an internship elsewhere would essentially get you removed from consideration outright.

As WisNeuro and erg both mentioned, neuropsych is a particularly competitive specialty that pulls for folks with particularly strong credentials. You're likely to be competing with trainees who've completed multiple neuropsych placements and coursework (although this certainly isn't always the case), and you're going to be ineligible to apply for all VA spots. Given that it sounds like you've had essentially no direct neuro experience up to this point, that's going to be a red flag for most programs. You're going to need somewhere that's able to offer significant support, including foundational and then advanced coursework, intense supervision, and access to numerous clinical populations. Such places are likely to be sought after by many folks, but as WisNeuro mentioned, there might be some places in CA that are more ok with CAPIC than would be the case elsewhere. But still, if that's your end goal, apply broadly, and plan to spend a LOT of extra hours during your postdoc making up ground. It's also going to be tough seeking APBB boarding, but I don't think a CAPIC half-time internship will automatically disqualify you (you can check their policies as well just to be sure).

Oh, and as erg mentioned, APA-accreditation at the postdoc level is nice, but not at all necessary. APPCN member programs are a good place to start to ensure you're going to obtain solid training. There are also good non-APPCN sites, but it's a bit more of a gamble with more potential variability, so your best bet would probably be sticking with places that are housed in reputable universities/medical schools.

Finally, I personally would never recommend an unpaid postdoc. In my mind, "unpaid" and "excellent training" are mutually-exclusive concepts when it comes to fellowship training, as any place that values their fellows enough to offer great training is also going to value them enough to pay them. The odds of it offering you the type of training you'd need would be slim, you'd have little to no spare time left to hold any sort of outside employment as you'd need to be catching up on the material you didn't have a chance to learn in grad school and on internship, and it's just bad for the field as a whole (i.e., it devalues what we do, and these spots would eventually stop being offered and/or folks would start paying if folks stopped accepting them).

Edit: And I agree w/PSYDR in that a paid fellowship, even if it's not stellar, is going to be better than an unpaid one.

 

[PsyDr]

1) Nope. You are not eligible.
2) An APA post doc (which are rare, IIRC), is out of the question unless you accomplish something amazing like a seminal article or something.
3) Nope.
4) Why in the hell would you work for free? I can find at least 3 post docs that don't require APA internship off a simple google search in the state of CA without trying.

 

[smalltownpsych]

LA County mental health is always looking to hire and will provide supervision. Sometimes it is hard to find a post-doc because they aren't always called that. Also, I thought CSPP was no more.

 

[erg923]

I have heard through the grapevine that grads often referred to it as CSPP instead of Alliant because of Alliants garbage reputation. CSPP actually had a pretty good reputation 30 years ago. Argosy grads do the same thing, referencing "American school of professional psychology" or something like that.

 

[56300-Zpn]

I agree with the above posters. As erg mentioned, APPIC generally prohibits folks who've already completed an internship from even applying for another one (you can look through APPIC's website yourself to find the specific policies). Additionally, even if they somehow allowed you an exception, APA-accredited internship sites are so competitive these days that I'd imagine having already completed an internship elsewhere would essentially get you removed from consideration outright.

As WisNeuro and erg both mentioned, neuropsych is a particularly competitive specialty that pulls for folks with particularly strong credentials. You're likely to be competing with trainees who've completed multiple neuropsych placements and coursework (although this certainly isn't always the case), and you're going to be ineligible to apply for all VA spots. Given that it sounds like you've had essentially no direct neuro experience up to this point, that's going to be a red flag for most programs. You're going to need somewhere that's able to offer significant support, including foundational and then advanced coursework, intense supervision, and access to numerous clinical populations. Such places are likely to be sought after by many folks, but as WisNeuro mentioned, there might be some places in CA that are more ok with CAPIC than would be the case elsewhere. But still, if that's your end goal, apply broadly, and plan to spend a LOT of extra hours during your postdoc making up ground. It's also going to be tough seeking APBB boarding, but I don't think a CAPIC half-time internship will automatically disqualify you (you can check their policies as well just to be sure).

Oh, and as erg mentioned, APA-accreditation at the postdoc level is nice, but not at all necessary. APPCN member programs are a good place to start to ensure you're going to obtain solid training. There are also good non-APPCN sites, but it's a bit more of a gamble with more potential variability, so your best bet would probably be sticking with places that are housed in reputable universities/medical schools.

Finally, I personally would never recommend an unpaid postdoc. In my mind, "unpaid" and "excellent training" are mutually-exclusive concepts when it comes to fellowship training, as any place that values their fellows enough to offer great training is also going to value them enough to pay them. The odds of it offering you the type of training you'd need would be slim, you'd have little to no spare time left to hold any sort of outside employment as you'd need to be catching up on the material you didn't have a chance to learn in grad school and on internship, and it's just bad for the field as a whole (i.e., it devalues what we do, and these spots would eventually stop being offered and/or folks would start paying if folks stopped accepting them).

Edit: And I agree w/PSYDR in that a paid fellowship, even if it's not stellar, is going to be better than an unpaid one.

Very thorough response. I appreciate the effort you put in. Just to clarify, clinical neuropsychology would be my intended route IF there is a reasonable chance at success at this point. However, I am considering several options currently and weighing the pro's and the con's. I need to make some important decisions soon so I am collecting as much info as possible. I also have some experience working as a counselor in several high schools so I am considering getting an additional credential to become a school psychologist. I hear they also have a school neuropsychology boards. I do not yet know if this level of training/certification parallels traditional means or if it is not a respected title in the least.

In response to your comments on being unpaid. Believe me 100% when I say yes I do agree. Given the position I am in, I was hoping that there were a few programs with remarkable post doc training (neuropsych, and even non-neuropsych) that ethically agree with paying but have recently lost funding due to the economy.

Thanks again for sharing!

 

[56300-Zpn]

LA County mental health is always looking to hire and will provide supervision. Sometimes it is hard to find a post-doc because they aren't always called that. Also, I thought CSPP was no more.

Good Advice. Thanks. From your experience, what are some other names that these types of positions would be referred to? This may help me expand my pool of sites in my searches.

 

[56300-Zpn]

1) Nope. You are not eligible.
2) An APA post doc (which are rare, IIRC), is out of the question unless you accomplish something amazing like a seminal article or something.
3) Nope.
4) Why in the hell would you work for free? I can find at least 3 post docs that don't require APA internship off a simple google search in the state of CA without trying.

Dont want to work for free. I need an income just like everyone else. I would only consider it in the rare instance an extremely good site was no longer able to pay. AcronymAllergy's opinion did help give me perspective.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Very thorough response. I appreciate the effort you put in. Just to clarify, clinical neuropsychology would be my intended route IF there is a reasonable chance at success at this point. However, I am considering several options currently and weighing the pro's and the con's. I need to make some important decisions soon so I am collecting as much info as possible. I also have some experience working as a counselor in several high schools so I am considering getting an additional credential to become a school psychologist. I hear they also have a school neuropsychology boards. I do not yet know if this level of training/certification parallels traditional means or if it is not a respected title in the least.

In response to your comments on being unpaid. Believe me 100% when I say yes I do agree. Given the position I am in, I was hoping that there were a few programs with remarkable post doc training (neuropsych, and even non-neuropsych) that ethically agree with paying but have recently lost funding due to the economy.

Thanks again for sharing!

That's understandable. It's possible such positions are around, but I honestly am not sure how one would go about finding them. Maybe scour the list of CA places that have offered postdocs in the past (e.g., the APPCN and Division 40 websites could be good places to start), and if none are currently accepting applications, you could try to find out why. Although like PSYDR, there's a big part of me that's just inherently against an unpaid postdoc even if the training is excellent, for some of the reasons I've listed above.

As for school neuropsychology--just say no. The only "qualification" and designation that I know of currently is at the masters level. If you (I'm speaking more with the general "you" here) want to go neuropsych, then do it the right way regardless of where you're going to end up working. Even if a person is "only" working in schools, it doesn't mean that the underlying concepts of neuropsychology somehow change or become simpler. It just means that you're likely to see different types of people and potential diseases than if you worked in, say, a movement disorders or memory clinic.

School psych in general is certainly one route to go, but personally, I'd want to make sure I'd had previously experience providing supervised services in such an environment, and that I had significant training in appropriate areas such as Response to Intervention.

 

[smalltownpsych]

You could also look at California hospital/prisons like Atascadero. They are always advertising in the Monitor. I would look up counseling jobs. A MA level position will work if there is a licensed psychologist there willing and able to supervise.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I also have some experience working as a counselor in several high schools so I am considering getting an additional credential to become a school psychologist. I hear they also have a school neuropsychology boards. I do not yet know if this level of training/certification parallels traditional means or if it is not a respected title in the least.

1. Being a school counselor will be quite different than being a school psychologist. The latter tends to do primarily school assessment, which is not what school counselors do in day-to-day practice.

2. School neuropsychology is a made up title and credential. While I do not speak for all neuropsychologists, I have yet to meet ANY neuropsychologist who doesn't view that designation as worthless. I personally would toss any application that lists that as a credential or any applicant that supports it as a legitimate training because it shows poor judgment and lack of awareness of training standards for the field.

3. Here is the thread I started a couple years ago about "school neuropsychology" that provides a better explanation of the problems with using a made up title and credential.