CDC says flu shot missed

[Unchained]

As if this is any surprise. Your corporation still wants you to recommend it however. You are providing a valuable service to your company and Big Pharma.

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[WVUPharm2007]

The three other strains are sti...
...you know...nevermind...this forum...

 

[zelman]

Were you the one saying flu shots don't work anyway in another thread? If so, why would getting the correct strains matter? It's all snake oil anyway, right?

If not, these strains may pop up next year and not be in that vaccine, so getting this flu shot may still offer benefit. The duration of protection from flu vaccines has not been established because they are formulated annually. The protection lasts at least a year, but may be longer.

 

[farmadiazepine]

It's 30% effective. That means its 70% ineffective. If I got a 30 on my test at school, that means I failed, and failed poorly.

 

[zelman]

It's 30% effective. That means its 70% ineffective. If I got a 30 on my test at school, that means I failed, and failed poorly.

Yeah. Decreasing the likelihood that I'll get a disease that might be passed on to my elderly patients and/or family with fatal results by 30% seems like a real waste of $30.

 

[keevwu]

It's 30% effective. That means its 70% ineffective. If I got a 30 on my test at school, that means I failed, and failed poorly.

30% > 0%

 

[WVUPharm2007]

30% is a lot when you consider the potentially exponential effect of a single exposure.

And its free...

 

[NateRobinson]

Yeah. Decreasing the likelihood that I'll get a disease that might be passed on to my elderly patients and/or family with fatal results by 30% seems like a real waste of $30.

But here's the thing, it's not even $30. It's free. 99.99% of insurances cover it. Maybe even 100% of insurances.

Not getting the flu shot, even if it's only TEN percent effective for example, is mind boggling. A little stab in the arm versus a week in bed feeling like death, not being able to breathe, go outside or eat? No thank you.

 

[zelman]

But here's the thing, it's not even $30. It's free. 99.99% of insurances cover it. Maybe even 100% of insurances.

Not getting the flu shot, even if it's only TEN percent effective for example, is mind boggling. A little stab in the arm versus a week in bed feeling like death, not being able to breathe, go outside or eat? No thank you.

Cost to the healthcare system should be considered. Don't think like Medicaid abusers.

 

[zelman]

It's 30% effective. That means its 70% ineffective. If I got a 30 on my test at school, that means I failed, and failed poorly.

You didn't have curved grades? A 30% was like a B+ in my kinetics class.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Cost to the healthcare system should be considered. Don't think like Medicaid abusers.

So what's cheaper? 3 people getting the flu or 10 people getting a flu shot. (And, again this doesn't take into consideration the fact that it would be much higher than 3 people due to herd immunity. Not to mention the societal cost of massive lack of productivity. ) Hell, one box of Tamiflu into the equation and its game over in favor of the immunization.

 

[zelman]

So what's cheaper? 3 people getting the flu or 10 people getting a flu shot. (And, again this doesn't take into consideration the fact that it would be much higher than 3 people due to herd immunity. Not to mention the societal cost of massive lack of productivity. ) Hell, one box of Tamiflu into the equation and its game over in favor of the immunization.

The flu shot makes sense economically, but thinking of it as "free" is myopic

 

[knight on horse]

You didn't have curved grades? A 30% was like a B+ in my kinetics class.

*****s

 

[PolarPop]

Ac

The flu shot makes sense economically, but thinking of it as "free" is myopic

Actually you are the myopic one here. You really think that the $30 per person burden it places on the healthcare system isn't outweighed by all of the direct and indirect benefits?

In the long term we really should be thinking of it as free money for everyone.

 

[Unchained]

Were you the one saying flu shots don't work anyway in another thread? If so, why would getting the correct strains matter? It's all snake oil anyway, right?

If not, these strains may pop up next year and not be in that vaccine, so getting this flu shot may still offer benefit. The duration of protection from flu vaccines has not been established because they are formulated annually. The protection lasts at least a year, but may be longer.

The protection from flu shots has not been established period. Forget about the length of protection. Also it goes without saying that they don't work any season not just this one. That's the beauty of it. If it's an especially virulent flu then they can always say they missed it.

 

[Unchained]

But here's the thing, it's not even $30. It's free. 99.99% of insurances cover it. Maybe even 100% of insurances.

Not getting the flu shot, even if it's only TEN percent effective for example, is mind boggling. A little stab in the arm versus a week in bed feeling like death, not being able to breathe, go outside or eat? No thank you.

There are side effects from medications Nate. It is estimated that 90% of ADE's from shots are not reported for obvious reasons. Why as a healthcare professional would you recommend a drug for which there is no established VE? There have been no double blind placebo controlled studies performed. The only one that benefits from this is your corporation and Big Pharma monetarily.

 

[Dred Pirate]

There are side effects from medications Nate. It is estimated that 90% of ADE's from shots are not reported for obvious reasons. Why as a healthcare professional would you recommend a drug for which there is no established VE? There have been no double blind placebo controlled studies performed. The only one that benefits from this is your corporation and Big Pharma monetarily.

people with this thought need to go back to the desert island and quit spouting stuff they have no evidence on - at least you and Jenny Mccarthy can hang out together

 

[zelman]

Ac

Actually you are the myopic one here. You really think that the $30 per person burden it places on the healthcare system isn't outweighed by all of the direct and indirect benefits?

In the long term we really should be thinking of it as free money for everyone.

I'm sure there are cost effective healthcare expenditures out there numerous enough to spend all the money in America on. However, if we did that we would be the healthiest people starving to death in the world.

 

[Unchained]

people with this thought need to go back to the desert island and quit spouting stuff they have no evidence on - at least you and Jenny Mccarthy can hang out together

How about you stop being one of the sheep and actually research what I am saying. The lack of VE comes right from the CDC website.

 

[Dred Pirate]

not going to waste my time arguing with the types of you. Just keep your unvaccinated kids away from mine and don't go to disney land

 

[Old Timer]

This says it all:

 

[Unchained]

not going to waste my time arguing with the types of you. Just keep your unvaccinated kids away from mine and don't go to disney land

Why would you be worried about my unvaccinated kids being around your vaccinated kids. They are protected aren't they?
This forum is further evidence that they are letting everyone into pharmacy school. It is also further evidence of the degradation of our educational system. You lack the ability to think critically. You also lack the ability or courage to question authority. There are many young and naïve on this forum.

 

[owlegrad]

Why would you be worried about my unvaccinated kids being around your vaccinated kids. They are protected aren't they?
This forum is further evidence that they are letting everyone into pharmacy school. It is also further evidence of the degradation of our educational system. You lack the ability to think critically. You also lack the ability or courage to question authority. There are many young and naïve on this forum.

 

[Old Timer]

Why would you be worried about my unvaccinated kids being around your vaccinated kids. They are protected aren't they?

Talk about somebody who didn't pay attention in school. Were you at the aluminum foil factory when they discussed herd immunity in school.

This forum is further evidence that they are letting everyone into pharmacy school. It is also further evidence of the degradation of our educational system.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black?

You lack the ability to think critically.

So, if you agree with general consensus of almost all medical professionals on the planet, you are a sheep? I think critically all of the time. The only point you make I agree with is much of the current vaccination drive is driven by corporate greed. Just because that is true does not logically mean there is no benefit from the vaccinations given. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. After it, therefore because of it. The thing is that is almost never true......

You have a valid point in that vaccination for seasonal influenza is not nearly as effective as say polio vaccine, smallpox vaccine, or other commonly used vaccines. There is also plenty of data that questions the public health benefit of widespread vaccination for seasonal influenza. But is by no means a slam dunk and has not reached critical mass that would cause professionals to abandon their current guidelines. You would be well served to present these arguments and let them stand or fall on their own. But remember, never let the perfect be the enemy of the good. When you go all conspiracy theory, you loose respect and any validity of your arguments is lost in the reflection off of the tin foil.

You also lack the ability or courage to question authority. There are many young and naïve on this forum.

I question authority all of the time. But I try to do it in a reasoned manner. The purpose of forums like this is two fold, you can present reasonable arguments to convince others of the correctness of your position or you can act like a 3rd grader and provide entertainment to the rest of us, your choice.

 

[Unchained]

This says it all:

Old Timer you don't add any clinical value to this discussion. Do you practice evidence based medicine? How capable are you of evaluating a clinical trial? Do you know the difference between Vaccine Efficacy and vaccine effectiveness? The students I precept know the difference and understand this. You are a dispenser of medication at CVS not knowledge. You have been turned into a well compensated drug rep. The one thing you add is cute little photos which make people chuckle.

 

[Old Timer]

Old Timer you don't add any clinical value to this discussion. Do you practice evidence based medicine? How capable are you of evaluating a clinical trial? Do you know the difference between Vaccine Efficacy and vaccine effectiveness? The students I precept know the difference and understand this. You are a dispenser of medication at CVS not knowledge. You have been turned into a well compensated drug rep. The one thing you add is cute little photos which make people chuckle.

So I asked for reason and I get attacked. I ask you to present information that would persuade others if the correctness of your position. What I get is invective. Better to be thought a fool then open your mouth and remove all doubt. I even said your position might have merit and you still don't show me anything. And you know nothing about me or how I practice. So it's back to the reynolds factory for you....

 

[zelman]

...There have been no double blind placebo controlled studies performed...

So, this meta analysis of placebo controlled studies is entirely useless because the only study that is explicitly listed as being double blind was an HIV infected population?

 

[KARM12]

There aren't really double-blind placebo controlled vaccine trials because it is unethical to vaccinate some and not others and then expose them to the disease. This is the same of the majority of antibiotic trials as well - few are placebo controlled.

I work in ID and have extensively reviewed the materials and clinical trails. I believe the flu shot is still the best protection against the flu. The issue is vaccine production and that you have to predict what strains to include in the vaccine. It isn't always perfect - the previous few years the predictions were correct. Antivirals for influenza don't provide great clinical outcomes. Check out the peramivir studies - they are terrible.

 

[zelman]

There aren't really double-blind placebo controlled vaccine trials because it is unethical to vaccinate some and not others and then expose them to the disease. This is the same of the majority of antibiotic trials as well - few are placebo controlled.

I work in ID and have extensively reviewed the materials and clinical trails. I believe the flu shot is still the best protection against the flu. The issue is vaccine production and that you have to predict what strains to include in the vaccine. It isn't always perfect - the previous few years the predictions were correct. Antivirals for influenza don't provide great clinical outcomes. Check out the peramivir studies - they are terrible.

The one

 

[Unchained]

There aren't really double-blind placebo controlled vaccine trials because it is unethical to vaccinate some and not others and then expose them to the disease. This is the same of the majority of antibiotic trials as well - few are placebo controlled.

I work in ID and have extensively reviewed the materials and clinical trails. I believe the flu shot is still the best protection against the flu. The issue is vaccine production and that you have to predict what strains to include in the vaccine. It isn't always perfect - the previous few years the predictions were correct. Antivirals for influenza don't provide great clinical outcomes. Check out the peramivir studies - they are terrible.

Karm12 there are plenty of people who do not get vaccinated for a multitude of reasons. They although not a perfect placebo group could be used. If these diseases were so virulent and prevalent I'm certain this population of people would've been wiped out. The reasons diseases disappeared was not because of vaccines. It was because of the improvements of hygiene and nutrition in the 1900's. The disappearance of supposed "deadly" diseases did not coincide with the introduction of vaccines. Plenty of charts out there. Find them.

The flu vaccine is judged by the lesser criteria of vaccine efficiency. CDC's website says the shot is between 15 and 60% effective by this weak criteria.

 

[Unchained]

Talk about somebody who didn't pay attention in school. Were you at the aluminum foil factory when they discussed herd immunity in school.


Talk about the pot calling the kettle black?



So, if you agree with general consensus of almost all medical professionals on the planet, you are a sheep? I think critically all of the time. The only point you make I agree with is much of the current vaccination drive is driven by corporate greed. Just because that is true does not logically mean there is no benefit from the vaccinations given. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. After it, therefore because of it. The thing is that is almost never true......

You have a valid point in that vaccination for seasonal influenza is not nearly as effective as say polio vaccine, smallpox vaccine, or other commonly used vaccines. There is also plenty of data that questions the public health benefit of widespread vaccination for seasonal influenza. But is by no means a slam dunk and has not reached critical mass that would cause professionals to abandon their current guidelines. You would be well served to present these arguments and let them stand or fall on their own. But remember, never let the perfect be the enemy of the good. When you go all conspiracy theory, you loose respect and any validity of your arguments is lost in the reflection off of the tin foil.





I question authority all of the time. But I try to do it in a reasoned manner. The purpose of forums like this is two fold, you can present reasonable arguments to convince others of the correctness of your position or you can act like a 3rd grader and provide entertainment to the rest of us, your choice.

 

[Unchained]

Talk about somebody who didn't pay attention in school. Were you at the aluminum foil factory when they discussed herd immunity in school.


Talk about the pot calling the kettle black?



So, if you agree with general consensus of almost all medical professionals on the planet, you are a sheep? I think critically all of the time. The only point you make I agree with is much of the current vaccination drive is driven by corporate greed. Just because that is true does not logically mean there is no benefit from the vaccinations given. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. After it, therefore because of it. The thing is that is almost never true......

You have a valid point in that vaccination for seasonal influenza is not nearly as effective as say polio vaccine, smallpox vaccine, or other commonly used vaccines. There is also plenty of data that questions the public health benefit of widespread vaccination for seasonal influenza. But is by no means a slam dunk and has not reached critical mass that would cause professionals to abandon their current guidelines. You would be well served to present these arguments and let them stand or fall on their own. But remember, never let the perfect be the enemy of the good. When you go all conspiracy theory, you loose respect and any validity of your arguments is lost in the reflection off of the tin foil.





I question authority all of the time. But I try to do it in a reasoned manner. The purpose of forums like this is two fold, you can present reasonable arguments to convince others of the correctness of your position or you can act like a 3rd grader and provide entertainment to the rest of us, your choice.

Vaccine induced herd immunity has been disproven many times over. Measles has broken out among populations that were 100% vaccinated. Vaccines do not provide lifelong immunity against a disease. This means many people are walking around without immunity to diseases they were vaccinated for 50 years ago. They (millions of people) reduce are not part of the immunized herd yet we don't have pandemic outbreaks of the disease. Thus vaccine induced herd immunity is a fallacy. It is only a term used to make parents and the uneducated panic.

 

[Unchained]

Brought to you by Merck and GlaxoSmithKline because we really care about the profits I mean your children. Who doesn't care about the children?

 

[KARM12]

Karm12 there are plenty of people who do not get vaccinated for a multitude of reasons. They although not a perfect placebo group could be used. If these diseases were so virulent and prevalent I'm certain this population of people would've been wiped out. The reasons diseases disappeared was not because of vaccines. It was because of the improvements of hygiene and nutrition in the 1900's. The disappearance of supposed "deadly" diseases did not coincide with the introduction of vaccines. Plenty of charts out there. Find them.

The flu vaccine is judged by the lesser criteria of vaccine efficiency. CDC's website says the shot is between 15 and 60% effective by this weak criteria.

You cannot use that as a comparative group because then it is no longer double-blinded, placebo controlled. Please review clinical trial design.

The majority of vaccine development took place in the 1940's and later. So improved sanitation of the 1900's is a weak argument.... MMR and polio were rampant in the 50's and 60's.

Again you can interpret data the way you want, but it is not worth it to aruge with Anti-vaxers because they have no proof or sense.

 

[BidingMyTime]

For me, its a moot point, since whether effective or not, flu shots are required to work in a hospital, but are the effective?

Not in the elderly (according to an NIH study):

http://sharylattkisson.com/govt-researchers-flu-shots-not-effective-in-elderly-after-all/

This then begs the question, are they effective in younger people (the study didn't look at that.)

I'm always amazed at how many people come to the ER each year with a complaint about a reaction to the flu shot. (Granted many of the complaints are self-limiting, or are questionable if they were caused by the flu shot. It just the number of flu shot complaints sticks out over complaints about other vaccines.

I will agree, 10% or 30% is better than 0%, but its hard to get excited about the flu vaccine, when other vaccines are far more effective.

 

[Pharmavixen]

Vaccine induced herd immunity has been disproven many times over. Measles has broken out among populations that were 100% vaccinated. Vaccines do not provide lifelong immunity against a disease. This means many people are walking around without immunity to diseases they were vaccinated for 50 years ago. They (millions of people) reduce are not part of the immunized herd yet we don't have pandemic outbreaks of the disease. Thus vaccine induced herd immunity is a fallacy. It is only a term used to make parents and the uneducated panic.

You are probably paranoid about the CDC so I give you a Public Health Agency of Canada reference on vaccines. There's a statement on herd immunity at the bottom. Guaranteed 100% CIA-free. http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/vs-sv/vs-faq02-eng.php

 

[Pharmavixen]

I will agree, 10% or 30% is better than 0%, but its hard to get excited about the flu vaccine, when other vaccines are far more effective.

Right now, the flu is hitting hard here in Toronto, but those of us who have had the flu shot are not getting as sick as the unvaccinated. Anecdata warning: I go to yoga and also do weights at a gym, and the flu is running through all these hippy types who think that cleansing, avoiding GMOs etc will "boost your immune system."

But yeah; a 30% success rate makes for a tough sell.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

My family of four are all vaccinated. Two of us (1 adult, 1 child) got the flu (A strain). I have had about a week of not feeling great, with maybe 48 hours of what I would consider acutely ill requiring me to miss work. My son missed two days of school. Others (outside of our family) who are not vaccinated seem to be staying sicker longer. This matches up with my experience in 2012, when I got influenza B. I was acutely ill for 48 hours and recovered. I'll take it and keep getting my flu shot.

 

[Unchained]

You are probably paranoid about the CDC so I give you a Public Health Agency of Canada reference on vaccines. There's a statement on herd immunity at the bottom. Guaranteed 100% CIA-free. http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/vs-sv/vs-faq02-eng.php

So you think Bigpharma has no influence on your Public Health Agency? I'll address just one of the unnecessary vaccines listed on their advertising page. The chickenpox vaccine is unnecessary. Obtaining natural immunity by getting the chickenpox is much safer than getting chemicals from a lab in India injected into your child. I'm surprised they put in the stat that it only killed 53 children in 10 years. More kids drowned in the bathtub. They don't state if the vaccine reduced the mortality rate after it was mandated. These were likely children with immunodeficiency syndromes. They only way it makes sense from an economic standpoint is that the parent doesn't have to miss several days of work.

There is a secondary benefit from children with chickenpox. It provides boosts to the immune system of the population thus suppressing Herpes Zoster. In the United States they found that after the vzv vaccine was mandated the incidence of Shingles dramatically increased in the young and elderly. But wait BigPharma had an answer to that one also. Zostavax which is only 51% effective for 3.1 years per the package insert. Don't worry about lack of efficacy. They will recommend a booster in a few years. It's always about the dollars.

 

[Unchained]

My family of four are all vaccinated. Two of us (1 adult, 1 child) got the flu (A strain). I have had about a week of not feeling great, with maybe 48 hours of what I would consider acutely ill requiring me to miss work. My son missed two days of school. Others (outside of our family) who are not vaccinated seem to be staying sicker longer. This matches up with my experience in 2012, when I got influenza B. I was acutely ill for 48 hours and recovered. I'll take it and keep getting my flu shot.

Let's hope your children don't get Guillain barre syndrome from a vaccine which this year the CDC says is 23% effective. The rate is 1.7 per million vaccinated. Remember that for a vaccine to be considered safe and effective by law 2 double blind field tests and long term safety trials need to be performed. These are not performed on the flu vaccine so it is in fact a yearly experimental vaccine. When your children reach the age of 50 will you be comfortable with them having received 40+ flu vaccinations at your encouragement?

 

[Old Timer]

The chickenpox vaccine is unnecessary. Obtaining natural immunity by getting the chickenpox is much safer than getting chemicals from a lab in India injected into your child.

Proof please. Produce a decent study to support this.

I'm surprised they put in the stat that it only killed 53 children in 10 years. More kids drowned in the bathtub. They don't state if the vaccine reduced the mortality rate after it was mandated. These were likely children with immunodeficiency syndromes. They only way it makes sense from an economic standpoint is that the parent doesn't have to miss several days of work.

Proof please. It is clear as day that since the vaccine was offered:

• The number of children who die from chicken pox has been reduced
• The severity of the disease in those that were vaccinated but still got chicken pox is greatly reduced.
• The number of hospitalizations from chicken pox has been reduced.

There is a secondary benefit from children with chickenpox. It provides boosts to the immune system of the population thus suppressing Herpes Zoster. In the United States they found that after the vzv vaccine was mandated the incidence of Shingles dramatically increased in the young and elderly. But wait BigPharma had an answer to that one also. Zostavax which is only 51% effective for 3.1 years per the package insert. Don't worry about lack of efficacy. They will recommend a booster in a few years. It's always about the dollars.

More lies. Bold Faced lies, wrapped in a kernel of truth. The only true statement is shingles rates are rising. What you fail to pint out or deliberately omit since it does comply with your version of reality is:

Shingles rates have been rising since before the Chicken Pox Vaccine was introduced.
The rate of increase did not accelerate once the vaccine was introduced.
Children who got the vaccine have a lower incidence of shingles and those that don't get it.

So unless you present some credible evidence, all you are leaving here is a big steaming pile of

 

[Vain Brother]

There aren't really double-blind placebo controlled vaccine trials because it is unethical to vaccinate some and not others and then expose them to the disease. This is the same of the majority of antibiotic trials as well - few are placebo controlled.

I work in ID and have extensively reviewed the materials and clinical trails. I believe the flu shot is still the best protection against the flu. The issue is vaccine production and that you have to predict what strains to include in the vaccine. It isn't always perfect - the previous few years the predictions were correct. Antivirals for influenza don't provide great clinical outcomes. Check out the peramivir studies - they are terrible.

this is only true in diseases for which there are already therapies out there that are accepted to be beneficial. no one seriously disputes that flu shots offer some protection, so it would be unethical to do one at this point. there were a couple of dengue fever vaccine studies just published in the last couple of weeks, and those were placebo-controlled

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Vaccine induced herd immunity has been disproven many times over.

Dude...about 80% of the things you type is bat**** insane.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Let's hope your children don't get Guillain barre syndrome from a vaccine which this year the CDC says is 23% effective. The rate is 1.7 per million vaccinated. Remember that for a vaccine to be considered safe and effective by law 2 double blind field tests and long term safety trials need to be performed. These are not performed on the flu vaccine so it is in fact a yearly experimental vaccine. When your children reach the age of 50 will you be comfortable with them having received 40+ flu vaccinations at your encouragement?

Yes, perfectly comfortable. And lots of other vaccines too.

 

[zelman]

 

[Unchained]

Dude...about 80% of the things you type is bat**** insane.

Even in years when the CDC admits the flu shot "missed" a max of 600 to 800 people die from it. Even if you believe that the vaccine was 23% effective as they say this year then we are paying billions of dollars to save about 100 lives. Only the US gov't would subsidize something like this. Do you know anyone who has died of the flu? How about a heart attack or a car crash?

 

[Unchained]

Yes, perfectly comfortable. And lots of other vaccines too.

In the last 10 years an average of 100 children per year died from the flu. You should as a parent and a healthcare professional research this before deciding to further vaccinate your children unnecessarily. It is shocking how uninformed and brainwashed parents have become in the US.

 

[Old Timer]

In the last 10 years an average of 100 children per year died from the flu. You should as a parent and a healthcare professional research this before deciding to further vaccinate your children unnecessarily. It is shocking how uninformed and brainwashed parents have become in the US.

And 90% of the 100 children WERE NOT vaccinated. Since you just spout BS and don't respond when with any facts when challenged it's getting close to time to place you on the ignore list.

You are entitled to your own opinions, just not your own facts. Unless you provide some, your pretty useless.......

 

[gwarm01]

A death certificate is rarely going to state "influenza." (http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm). I see patients admitted to the ICU all the time due to symptoms of the flu, some more severe than others. We recently had a patient on ECMO for several weeks who is lucky to be alive right now, all due to a severe case of the flu. I'm sure they would have gone back and taken the shot if it could have spared them that ordeal.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

In the last 10 years an average of 100 children per year died from the flu. You should as a parent and a healthcare professional research this before deciding to further vaccinate your children unnecessarily. It is shocking how uninformed and brainwashed parents have become in the US.

You know what's unnecessary? Deaths from vaccine-preventable diseases. Thanks, antivax idiots.