CDC says flu shot missed

[All4MyDaughter]

I don't take parenting advice from people wearing tinfoil hats.

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[Dred Pirate]

Even in years when the CDC admits the flu shot "missed" a max of 600 to 800 people die from it. Even if you believe that the vaccine was 23% effective as they say this year then we are paying billions of dollars to save about 100 lives. Only the US gov't would subsidize something like this. Do you know anyone who has died of the flu? How about a heart attack or a car crash?

wtf?!?!?!? where did you get these stats??????????????????


CDC estimates that from the 1976-1977 season to the 2006-2007 flu season, flu-associated deaths ranged from a low of about 3,000 to a high of about 49,000 people.

 

[sakigt]

I don't take parenting advice from people wearing tinfoil hats.

Neither do I. We do the best we can with the information we have. I vaccinated my 2 year old and myself while in the 1st trimester this year. People are so concerned with vaccines but love new car smell, animal meat from tourtured/malnourished animals and who knows what chemicals on their smartphones. Hypocrites.

 

[iwant2bepharmd]

Okay, let's take this another direction. Unchained thinks that vaccines don't work and thinks that polio was wiped out because of hand hygiene. There is no point in listening to him.

BUT what do we tell our patients? The influenza vaccine is 23% effective and we have tot ell the truth, but what points do we offer them to convince them to take it?

 

[zelman]

Okay, let's take this another direction. Unchained thinks that vaccines don't work and thinks that polio was wiped out because of hand hygiene. There is no point in listening to him.

BUT what do we tell our patients? The influenza vaccine is 23% effective and we have tot ell the truth, but what points do we offer them to convince them to take it?

Are you a salesperson? Why are you trying to convince people? Offer the service and recommend it. I think that concludes your job.

 

[Old Timer]

I had my unchain vaccination. I just placed him on ignore and I made a complete recovery. I hope I don't need a booster.

 

[Old Timer]

Okay, let's take this another direction. Unchained thinks that vaccines don't work and thinks that polio was wiped out because of hand hygiene. There is no point in listening to him.

BUT what do we tell our patients? The influenza vaccine is 23% effective and we have tot ell the truth, but what points do we offer them to convince them to take it?

Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good. The advantages still outweigh the disadvantages.

 

[iwant2bepharmd]

Are you a salesperson? Why are you trying to convince people? Offer the service and recommend it. I think that concludes your job.

No salesperson, but part of our job is making recommendations that further patient care and so forth. Patients are going to resist the flu shot more than ever now (name the % of patients that tell you they get the flu from getting the flu shot, it doesn't matter if it's untrue or not). My intention was more-so to come up with effective ways to communicate to the patient that the benefits outweigh the risk.

For example:
1. This will protect you from strains that could be prevalent in the future.
2. This will protect your family from an unnecessary trip to the ICU or a hospital stay.
...

 

[Rockinacoustic]

No salesperson, but part of our job is making recommendations that further patient care and so forth. Patients are going to resist the flu shot more than ever now (name the % of patients that tell you they get the flu from getting the flu shot, it doesn't matter if it's untrue or not). My intention was more-so to come up with effective ways to communicate to the patient that the benefits outweigh the risk.

For example:
1. This will protect you from strains that could be prevalent in the future.
2. This will protect your family from an unnecessary trip to the ICU or a hospital stay.
...

Replace 'will' with 'can' and you have my points for people.

 

[Gosondth]

At the risk of trying to "win the internet", let me take some of Unhinged arguments and put it in perspective:

Regarding your argument double blind studies: Consider the case of the Ebola serum. There was NO controlled double blind studies. Based on your argument, that mean that those patients that received it should not have because of lack of efficacy studies (in addition to unknown AEs).

Regarding your Big Parma grudge: By your argument child seats are not necessary. Kids seem to fit just fine in regular car seats for decades. Based on your argument, car seats are just manufacturers ways of making more money.

Regarding risk vs. reward: In oncology some 1st line treatments have a pretty much 100% cure rate. However the risk of a severe AE can run as high as 40% (and persist life long). Based on your argument, debilitating AE's are not worth the risk of treating to cure.

Ridiculous analogies? Maybe. At least I can admit they may not be perfect arguments, but use it to reflect on your uncompromising views.

I recall somewhere that you precept students. I hope you are open minded to dissenting viewpoints from your students, otherwise you are providing your students a great disservice.

 

[Unchained]

Okay, let's take this another direction. Unchained thinks that vaccines don't work and thinks that polio was wiped out because of hand hygiene. There is no point in listening to him.

BUT what do we tell our patients? The influenza vaccine is 23% effective and we have tot ell the truth, but what points do we offer them to convince them to take it?

I'm glad you asked this question. Our job is to give our patients this information so that they can make an educated decision. This is how we became one of the most trusted professions. We are losing that trust by becoming advocates of a medical procedure which frankly is not very effective or safe. Before the pharmaceutical companies won the right for us to give immunizations we told patients that the best way to prevent the flu was by washing your hands, keeping them away from your face and avoiding people with the flu. Fast forward to today and we are told we should answer the phone "Would you like a flu shot?". Pharmacists whether we realize it or not are being turned into pharmaceutical reps.

 

[Unchained]

Are you a salesperson? Why are you trying to convince people? Offer the service and recommend it. I think that concludes your job.

Are you a district manager or a pharmacist? Part of our job as a pharmacist is to cut through the TV ads and the hype and present our patients with knowledge so that they can make an educated decision. The patients who ask me if they need to get the flu shot are told how effective it is. I also tell them the other ways to prevent the flu. Most of them decide not to get the shot. We aren't supposed to be herding people like animals for the benefit of our capitalist overlords. Since when did one size fits all medicine become the standard?

 

[Unchained]

wtf?!?!?!? where did you get these stats??????????????????


CDC estimates that from the 1976-1977 season to the 2006-2007 flu season, flu-associated deaths ranged from a low of about 3,000 to a high of about 49,000 people.

That's quite a range there Dred Pirate. I'll take the low end. That works out to 100 per year. Do you know anyone who has died of the flu? Do you know anyone who knows anyone who has died of the flu? How about car accidents? How about heart attacks? The fact is that we spend billions of dollars per year on a procedure which does not save lives. Only the US gov't would fund such an operation. This money could be better spent on other health conditions.

 

[Unchained]

And 90% of the 100 children WERE NOT vaccinated. Since you just spout BS and don't respond when with any facts when challenged it's getting close to time to place you on the ignore list.

You are entitled to your own opinions, just not your own facts. Unless you provide some, your pretty useless.......

You actually took some time to look this up. I think if you were to look at this more closely you would probably find that those children had other risk factors such as an immunodeficiency. They are very careful to leave this out. You are not even considering the risk side of the equation. Cases of Guillian Barre are about 1.7 per million vaccinated. You are looking at around 250 cases per year. This is only one of the possible SE's. Old Timer considering risk vs benefit is a basic tenet of medicine. Please get back to being a pharmacist and not a shill for CVS and Bigpharma. Our patients should not be viewed as $$$$.

 

[Dred Pirate]

That's quite a range there Dred Pirate. I'll take the low end. That works out to 100 per year. Do you know anyone who has died of the flu? Do you know anyone who knows anyone who has died of the flu? How about car accidents? How about heart attacks? The fact is that we spend billions of dollars per year on a procedure which does not save lives. Only the US gov't would fund such an operation. This money could be better spent on other health conditions.

my friends healthy three year old daughter died from the flu this year - so I will gladly let you tell them nobody dies from the flu

 

[Dred Pirate]

That's quite a range there Dred Pirate. I'll take the low end. That works out to 100 per year.

and also dude - that was per year not total

 

[zelman]

You actually took some time to look this up. I think if you were to look at this more closely you would probably find that those children had other risk factors such as an immunodeficiency. They are very careful to leave this out. You are not even considering the risk side of the equation. Cases of Guillian Barre are about 1.7 per million vaccinated. You are looking at around 250 cases per year. This is only one of the possible SE's. Old Timer considering risk vs benefit is a basic tenet of medicine. Please get back to being a pharmacist and not a shill for CVS and Bigpharma. Our patients should not be viewed as $$$$.

You're pointing out that children with compromised immune systems didn't get the flu vaccine, and somehow that's an argument against vaccination? How am I supposed to take you seriously when anti-vaccine propaganda is probably to blame for that?

 

[Unchained]

and also dude - that was per year not total

The CDC says on their website that "they don't know exactly how many people die per year from the flu". If you want the real #'s you have to go to the National Vital Statistics data where they actually look at what was on the death certificate. Take for instance the year 2010. Only 500 people died from influenza per their death certificate. Since tests are only performed in 15-20% of deaths per suspected influenza the number of dead is likely much lower. That year of 2010 saw more deaths from ulcers (2977) and hernias(1832) than flu.

The CDC is in the business of selling vaccines. It's hard to sell vaccines if only 100 people per year are dying. The public wasn't taking flu vaccination very seriously back in 2003. The manufacturers were getting stuck with 100 million doses at the end of the season. In an effort to increase vaccination rates the manufacturers employed the media to create panic. Your 5 o'clock news guy telling you to get a vaccination for the flu season is a paid advertisement. I have to give it to them. They are very clever.

 

[PolarPop]

The CDC says on their website that "they don't know exactly how many people die per year from the flu". If you want the real #'s you have to go to the National Vital Statistics data where they actually look at what was on the death certificate. Take for instance the year 2010. Only 500 people died from influenza per their death certificate. Since tests are only performed in 15-20% of deaths per suspected influenza the number of dead is likely much lower. That year of 2010 saw more deaths from ulcers (2977) and hernias(1832) than flu.

The CDC is in the business of selling vaccines. It's hard to sell vaccines if only 100 people per year are dying. The public wasn't taking flu vaccination very seriously back in 2003. The manufacturers were getting stuck with 100 million doses at the end of the season. In an effort to increase vaccination rates the manufacturers employed the media to create panic. Your 5 o'clock news guy telling you to get a vaccination for the flu season is a paid advertisement. I have to give it to them. They are very clever.

There are more things to consider than just the death certificate. Patients die from other causes. Are you just conveniently ignoring the multiple reports that show a reduction in all cause and cause specific mortality and other complications for patients with chronic diseases?

 

[Dred Pirate]

The CDC says on their website that "they don't know exactly how many people die per year from the flu". If you want the real #'s you have to go to the National Vital Statistics data where they actually look at what was on the death certificate. Take for instance the year 2010. Only 500 people died from influenza per their death certificate. Since tests are only performed in 15-20% of deaths per suspected influenza the number of dead is likely much lower. That year of 2010 saw more deaths from ulcers (2977) and hernias(1832) than flu.

The CDC is in the business of selling vaccines. It's hard to sell vaccines if only 100 people per year are dying. The public wasn't taking flu vaccination very seriously back in 2003. The manufacturers were getting stuck with 100 million doses at the end of the season. In an effort to increase vaccination rates the manufacturers employed the media to create panic. Your 5 o'clock news guy telling you to get a vaccination for the flu season is a paid advertisement. I have to give it to them. They are very clever.

I see you completely ducked my response about my friends daughter

 

[BidingMyTime]

I am so reminded of what the late President Abraham Lincoln said: "“85% of quotes on the Internet are made up."

As for "selling people" on the flu shot, I just tell people what the CDC recommends and why. It is there choice to make thereafter. I would be more adamant in trying to convince someone to get a vaccine like the TDAP or MMR--I believe the evidence shows this to be high benefit/low risk (as opposed to the flu shot which is low benefit/low risk.)

As for herd immunity....I think the evidence shows that its real, but the evidence also shows that vaccines work (for the most part), whether or not anybody else is getting them. I feel safe in knowing that my children are fully vaccinated (confession, they did not get the flu vaccine, for no other reason than I didn't want to make a special trip to the doctor for them to get it.) While ideally everyone should be vaccinated, I'm not going to lose any sleep over people who choose not to--it is theirselves that they are putting at greatest danger, not my family.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I am so reminded of what the late President Abraham Lincoln said: "“85% of quotes on the Internet are made up."

As for "selling people" on the flu shot, I just tell people what the CDC recommends and why. It is there choice to make thereafter. I would be more adamant in trying to convince someone to get a vaccine like the TDAP or MMR--I believe the evidence shows this to be high benefit/low risk (as opposed to the flu shot which is low benefit/low risk.)

As for herd immunity....I think the evidence shows that its real, but the evidence also shows that vaccines work (for the most part), whether or not anybody else is getting them. I feel safe in knowing that my children are fully vaccinated (confession, they did not get the flu vaccine, for no other reason than I didn't want to make a special trip to the doctor for them to get it.) While ideally everyone should be vaccinated, I'm not going to lose any sleep over people who choose not to--it is theirselves that they are putting at greatest danger, not my family.

Not exactly true. It does put others at risk. There are people who legitimately cannot be vaccinated. Babies, the immunocompromised, people who have had real vaccine reactions. Those people have no choice but to rely on herd immunity. And people who don't vaccinate **** that up for the rest of us. Case in point - my son had pertussis as an infant. And, even though my husband and I were fully vaccinated (and had recent boosters) with him coughing in our faces 24/7, we both got it. The unvaccinated put everyone at risk by allowing VPD to get a foothold in the community. No vaccine is 100% effective. We need herd immunity.

 

[Unchained]

I see you completely ducked my response about my friends daughter

I want to see the obituary and death certificate. I'd also like to know if she was immunized. Did they perform a test to see what type or if it was influenza?

 

[zelman]

I want to see the obituary and death certificate. I'd also like to know if she was immunized. Did they perform a test to see what type or if it was influenza?

You first. Show us the death certificates and medical records of every patient accounted for in the figures you cited. Also Obama's long form birth certificate.





...tool

 

[Unchained]

Not exactly true. It does put others at risk. There are people who legitimately cannot be vaccinated. Babies, the immunocompromised, people who have had real vaccine reactions. Those people have no choice but to rely on herd immunity. And people who don't vaccinate **** that up for the rest of us. Case in point - my son had pertussis as an infant. And, even though my husband and I were fully vaccinated (and had recent boosters) with him coughing in our faces 24/7, we both got it. The unvaccinated put everyone at risk by allowing VPD to get a foothold in the community. No vaccine is 100% effective. We need herd immunity.

I wish I could manufacture a product which didn't work and people would continue buying it. The reason you both got pertussis is because the pertussis vaccine is not effective. You even had boosters and it didn't work.

One thing the medical community has done when a vaccine doesn't work is to rename the disease. When someone presents to the ER with a whooping cough they reference their vaccine record. When they see that they have been vaccinated against pertussis they assume it can't be whooping cough. They then call it croup.

I've already addressed the vaccine stimulated herd immunity fallacy. Even if you believe that vaccines are an effective method to prevent disease and you believe in the concept of herd immunity it does not apply to influenza because you will never eradicate influenza even at 100% vaccination rate.

Giving your child 46 injections by age 6 with vaccines which are not effective, are against diseases which no longer are a threat, and against diseases which are not deadly is a bad idea. The CDC is in the business of selling vaccinations and not protecting your child.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

We had much shorter courses of pertussis... a week compared to weeks or months. The kid actually recovered faster. Again, no vaccine works 100% of the time, but those who are vaccinated typically have a shorter and milder form of the disease. I consider it a victory. We had pertussis but no one died, my baby didn't end up in the ICU, and we were all OK after a few weeks.

And you're totally wrong about what happens when a child presents in the ER with a cough. There is a protocol now to screen for possible whooping cough.

Basically, you just don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Dred Pirate]

I want to see the obituary and death certificate. I'd also like to know if she was immunized. Did they perform a test to see what type or if it was influenza?

http://www.ohdefuneralhome.com/memsol.cgi?user_id=1488405

here you go - I will let you contact him for the death certificate -it is a small town - I am sure you can contact him and prove you are the royal jerk you sound like.

yes - both type A and B

PS watch the video and tell me you don't have a tear in your eye no matter how tough any of you are,

 

[BidingMyTime]

Not exactly true. It does put others at risk. There are people who legitimately cannot be vaccinated. Babies, the immunocompromised, people who have had real vaccine reactions. Those people have no choice but to rely on herd immunity. And people who don't vaccinate **** that up for the rest of us. Case in point - my son had pertussis as an infant. And, even though my husband and I were fully vaccinated (and had recent boosters) with him coughing in our faces 24/7, we both got it. The unvaccinated put everyone at risk by allowing VPD to get a foothold in the community. No vaccine is 100% effective. We need herd immunity.

Very good points.

 

[Dred Pirate]

I think unchained may have finally shut up - been logged on but no replies -

 

[KARM12]

Good.

Sorry to hear about your friend's daughter.

 

[Pharmavixen]

:troll:

 

[Pharmavixen]

I have successfully talked a couple of fence-sitters into getting a flu shot this year, despite the controversy over its crappy effectiveness. I tell them that it's 100% ineffective if you don't get the shot, you don't get as sick if you get the flu, and it offers robust protection against H1N1.

 

[Dred Pirate]

:troll:

think he got the hint

 

[Deja]

wtf, i just read this thread, why is unchained keep telling everyone to provide source and documents while not providing any himself? all I read from him is spewing out some data and then tell OTHER people to look it up, wtf, if you expect other people to provide source for what they wrote (which alot of people did), why didn't you?!

BUT my major concern is that unchained is a preceptor?! holy cow...

 

[Dred Pirate]

wtf, i just read this thread, why is unchained keep telling everyone to provide source and documents while not providing any himself? all I read from him is spewing out some data and then tell OTHER people to look it up, wtf, if you expect other people to provide source for what they wrote (which alot of people did), why didn't you?!

BUT my major concern is that unchained is a preceptor?! holy cow...

yup - and all of a sudden - nothing..........

 

[priapismfordays]

Most of you people sound like everyone who thinks immunizations cause autism. When do they formulate the flu vaccine? March, April, May, June... When is the flu season? Around August to March. Formulating the flu shot for the year is an educated guess as to which strains, including new, undetected strains. This year they happened to miss a strain of the virus. It's not like all the other flu strains have stopped circulating. What I am trying to say is stop complaining! They did their best and protected us against many viruses causing the flu and I appreciate it completely and am very thankful I received my flu shot this year.

 

[priapismfordays]

Most of you people sound like everyone who thinks immunizations cause autism. When do they formulate the flu vaccine? March, April, May, June... When is the flu season? Around August to March. Formulating the flu shot for the year is an educated guess as to which strains, including new, undetected strains. This year they happened to miss a strain of the virus. It's not like all the other flu strains have stopped circulating. What I am trying to say is stop complaining! They did their best and protected us against many viruses causing the flu and I appreciate it completely and am very thankful I received my flu shot this year.

Sorry, I guess I should have read all the posts. Sounds like most of us are on the same page

 

[Dred Pirate]

Sorry, I guess I should have read all the posts. Sounds like most of us are on the same page

most? all except one!

 

[Dred Pirate]

I want to see the obituary and death certificate. I'd also like to know if she was immunized. Did they perform a test to see what type or if it was influenza?

so - you ever contact him to spread your quackery?

 

[Pharmgrlnxdor]

I am a big proponent and every year push the flu shots but with my previous employer tracking the numbers and telling us when we had not reached goal all the time it became such a chore, so thank you for posting this, awful as it is, for it will remind me of why I always give a quick flu shot spiel to those that seem on the fence telling them that their actions most certainly somewhere down the line will save someone's life. A young child, someone's beloved Grandmother, etc. A person unknown to them but still alive because they had the foresight to get vaccinated and not be a part of the chain of illness that will reach someone who will be unable to fight it off.

http://www.ohdefuneralhome.com/memsol.cgi?user_id=1488405

here you go - I will let you contact him for the death certificate -it is a small town - I am sure you can contact him and prove you are the royal jerk you sound like.

yes - both type A and B

PS watch the video and tell me you don't have a tear in your eye no matter how tough any of you are,

 

[Unchained]

I am a big proponent and every year push the flu shots but with my previous employer tracking the numbers and telling us when we had not reached goal all the time it became such a chore, so thank you for posting this, awful as it is, for it will remind me of why I always give a quick flu shot spiel to those that seem on the fence telling them that their actions most certainly somewhere down the line will save someone's life. A young child, someone's beloved Grandmother, etc. A person unknown to them but still alive because they had the foresight to get vaccinated and not be a part of the chain of illness that will reach someone who will be unable to fight it off.

Congrats Big Pharma now owns you. Do you understand that despite mass flu vaccination efforts during the last 15 years the mortality statistics have not changed? The CDC even says on their website that their is no vaccine effectiveness established for senior citizens. You want to give it to protect someone's beloved grandmother?

If this story of the death is true it is sad. The flu vaccine if she received it did not work. It likely would not have worked if she had received it. The CDC claims it was only 23% effective this past season. This is by the lower standard of vaccine effectiveness and not Vaccine Efficacy (VE). The flu vaccine simply is not an effective way to prevent the flu.

 

[Dred Pirate]

If this story of the death is true it is sad. The flu vaccine if she received it did not work. It likely would not have worked if she had received it. The CDC claims it was only 23% effective this past season. This is by the lower standard of vaccine effectiveness and not Vaccine Efficacy (VE). The flu vaccine simply is not an effective way to prevent the flu.

IF? WTF? IF it is true????? Do you think I made it up? Her family was on CNN, is that made up???? You were so cold and showed your true jerk colors when you asked a copy of the death certificate, do you want me to walk out to the cemetery and post a picture of her grave stone while I am at it? If I truly said what I feel right now I would get banned for life from here, and it is not worth when not a single person on here agrees with you.

I pm'd you after you made that post but you were to afraid to respond. You disappeared for a couple months after I replied to your post and I was hoping you would never come back.

 

[Dred Pirate]

I am officially signing off of this thread and not responding and wasting megabytes responding. If you have anything else you want me to read, PM me.