MD & DO Chemistry Graduate Student-Gpa

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ChemKing01

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Hello everyone.

I'm currently getting my M.S. in organic chemistry. I am afraid my first semester will leave me with a 3.00 gpa. I was wondering what gpa would be fine for MD and DO schools, and if the standards for undergrad. and graduate school differ in terms of gpa. Do people get into medical school with a gpa between 3.0-3.3 for graduate school classes? Would I "need" an MCAT over 30 in this case?

Also, I want to know the difference in gpa for MD and DO concerning this topic. I know what the undergraduate standards are. Thanks!
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My graduate GPA is also significantly worse than my undergrad GPA. (3.4 vs 3.7).

My pre-med advisor and one MD/Ph.D who did med school interviews said it was not a positive sign, but also not a career ender. That 3.0 is quite a bit worse: can you explain why?
 
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Since most graduate programs will place students on academic probation for a semester below 3.0 (if they don't expel you from the program), you're in a very tough situation. I would be very concerned about your chances if you earn a 3.00 GPA from your work this semester.
 
I will probably have a 3.3-3.6 by the end of the year, but I will probably have near a 3.0 this semester because of advance organic chemistry, which serves as half my credits. I might obtain a C to C+ in there. The reason is because my research credits will go into effect by the end of spring/summer.
 
Doug Underhill said:
My graduate GPA is also significantly worse than my undergrad GPA. (3.4 vs 3.7).

My pre-med advisor and one MD/Ph.D who did med school interviews said it was not a positive sign, but also not a career ender. That 3.0 is quite a bit worse: can you explain why?
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I will probably have a 3.3-3.6 by the end of the year, but I will probably have near a 3.0 this semester because of advance organic chemistry, which serves as half my credits. I might obtain a C to C+ in there. The reason is because my research credits will go into effect by the end of spring/summer.
 
ChemKing01 said:
I will probably have a 3.3-3.6 by the end of the year, but I will probably have near a 3.0 this semester because of advance organic chemistry, which serves as half my credits. I might obtain a C to C+ in there. The reason is because my research credits will go into effect by the end of spring/summer.
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I believe that most medical programs will, in essence, ignore the grades that you have earned/will earn in your seminar courses and research credits since they know that they are courses in name only. It's the primary reason why graduate GPA is expected to rise because half of your credits are essentially guaranteed A's for seminar and research courses. The fact that your graduate GPA dropped will likely raise questions regarding your ability to handle challenging coursework.
 
His program may not have seminar/research grades. Mine didn't, although I was in one of the biomedical sciences instead of chemistry. Personally, I think the perception of graduate GPAs all being high is a crock: I had a course where the instructor was a grizzled old bastard who gave out roughly one A- every two years in a class of 30 and one A total throughout the time I was a Ph.D student. He told me my grade of C+ was something to be proud of. I doubt the adcoms will say the same.
 
Doug Underhill said:
His program may not have seminar/research grades. Mine didn't, although I was in one of the biomedical sciences instead of chemistry. Personally, I think the perception of graduate GPAs all being high is a crock: I had a course where the instructor was a grizzled old bastard who gave out roughly one A- every two years in a class of 30 and one A total throughout the time I was a Ph.D student. He told me my grade of C+ was something to be proud of. I doubt the adcoms will say the same.
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Though individual cases may belie the belief, it is a widely held opinion. That is why we counsel applicants that good Post grad grades do not remediate undergraduate performance. Weak post grad grades can hurt, however.
 
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I've heard "can hurt" before, but what would an adcom actually do when faced with a candidate whose graduate GPA was significantly lower than their undergrad GPA? Ask them to explain it in an interview? Laugh and throw their app in the trash before the interview? Interview them, but then use it as grounds to eliminate them from contention afterwards?

Who is worse off- a candidate with 3.7 uGPA and 3.4 gGPA, or a candidate with 3.6 uGPA and 3.6 gGPA?
 
Doug Underhill said:
I've heard "can hurt" before, but what would an adcom actually do when faced with a candidate whose graduate GPA was significantly lower than their undergrad GPA? Ask them to explain it in an interview? Laugh and throw their app in the trash before the interview? Interview them, but then use it as grounds to eliminate them from contention afterwards?

Who is worse off- a candidate with 3.7 uGPA and 3.4 gGPA, or a candidate with 3.6 uGPA and 3.6 gGPA?
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Every application is a constellation of variables.
A low graduate gpa moves the the needle down from wherever it may have been. Thus, depending on where the candidate was located on the mental scale of the screener, any of your scenarios could occur.
 
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Doug Underhill said:
His program may not have seminar/research grades. Mine didn't, although I was in one of the biomedical sciences instead of chemistry. Personally, I think the perception of graduate GPAs all being high is a crock: I had a course where the instructor was a grizzled old bastard who gave out roughly one A- every two years in a class of 30 and one A total throughout the time I was a Ph.D student. He told me my grade of C+ was something to be proud of. I doubt the adcoms will say the same.
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I believe that the OP stated that his GPA would be higher in the spring semester due to research and seminar grades (Post #6 of this thread).
 
chemguy79 said:
I believe that the OP stated that his GPA would be higher in the spring semester due to research and seminar grades (Post #6 of this thread).
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My program will have roughly 9-12 course credits, 2 seminar credits, and about 15 research credits. However, during my first semester, I have 6 credits, which 3 credits is allocated to an advanced chem. class where I *could* receive a C if I don't do well. Overall, that would put me at a 3.0. Although, I would definitely increase this grade with research credits over time.

I guess my overall question is, how important is my overall graduate gpa to adcoms, and furthermore, how important are the grades I receive in the courses? Lastly, how do these compare to both MD and DO schools. Thanks everyone for the feedback!
 
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ChemKing01 said:
My program will have roughly 9-12 course credits, 2 seminar credits, and about 15 research credits. However, during my first semester, I have 6 credits, which 3 credits is allocated to an advanced chem. class where I *could* receive a C if I don't do well. Overall, that would put me at a 3.0. Although, I would definitely increase this grade with research credits over time.

I guess my overall question is, how important is my overall graduate gpa to adcoms, and furthermore, how important are the grades I receive in the courses? Lastly, how do these compare to both MD and DO schools. Thanks everyone for the feedback!
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A C in a graduate course is very detrimental to your chances.
 
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IMO, when your 3.5+ graduate GPA incorporates 15+ hours of coursework (out of 30) where you are guaranteed to make an A (research and seminar hours), your GPA will not provide nearly as much assistance to your medical school application as one would think.

The bottom line is that if you make a C in a graduate school course, it's going to hurt your application.
 
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My pre-med advisor said that a subpar grad school GPA lowers your odds of acceptance by one box down from what it would otherwise be on AAMC Table 25. (For example, if your GPA would be within 3.6 to 3.79, your odds of acceptance are though it was 3.4-3.59 instead.)

Not sure what SDN would think of that.

 
Doug Underhill said:
My pre-med advisor said that a subpar grad school GPA lowers your odds of acceptance by one box down from what it would otherwise be on AAMC Table 25. (For example, if your GPA would be within 3.6 to 3.79, your odds of acceptance are though it was 3.4-3.59 instead.)

Not sure what SDN would think of that.
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Do you guys think that a 30+ on the MCAT, with a 3.5+ gpa, and one C in grad. school would be still too low for medical schools?
 
Doug Underhill said:
3.5/30 sounds like at least one DO school would bite.
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Thats good news then!
So even with research(publications), TA positions, a 30+ on the MCAT, and a 3.5+ Ggpa, an MD school wouldnt bite? I can understand its below average for sure, but i figure half of the applicants are below the average line. Im not looking for a top MD or anything, just wondering if I had a shot for a reasonable one.
 
AAMC Table 25 says "you have a shot". It's impossible to say "you have no chance whatsoever" with certainty unless you are technically ineligible (with something like a felony conviction). If you go by Table 25 and the rule my advisor used, you have a 34% chance of a MD acceptance with those stats, which isn't great.
 
Doug Underhill said:
AAMC Table 25 says "you have a shot". It's impossible to say "you have no chance whatsoever" with certainty unless you are technically ineligible (with something like a felony conviction). If you go by Table 25 and the rule my advisor used, you have a 34% chance of a MD acceptance with those stats, which isn't great.
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Interesting, I didnt know that table existed. Thanks for your help. I hope I get accepted somewhere!
 
chemguy79 said:
IMO, when your 3.5+ graduate GPA incorporates 15+ hours of coursework (out of 30) where you are guaranteed to make an A (research and seminar hours), your GPA will not provide nearly as much assistance to your medical school application as one would think.

The bottom line is that if you make a C in a graduate school course, it's going to hurt your application.
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I scored a B- for the course (average). Is that a big deal? Thanks.
 
I think that @Goro and @gyngyn will provide better feedback, but a B- in a graduate school course is exponentially better than a C. Advanced Organic Chemistry courses are ridiculous in graduate school (I had to take 5 of them myself); Therefore, I don't think that a B- will ruin your chances where as a C would have had a substantial impact.

With respect to non-seminar courses, how many will you take in your program? For example, if you are only taking 5 "actual courses" in your program, you may want to consider taking an additional course (an undergrad course in Biology, for instance) to show that you can handle the coursework. I know that it can be a pain to balance research hours with coursework external to your department, but I took an undergraduate biochemistry course and a statistics course during graduate school to improve my BCMP GPA while I was performing research.
 
OP is not doing as well as he should be. C's and B-'s are on the road to wait lists.


chemguy79 said:
I think that @Goro and @gyngyn will provide better feedback, but a B- in a graduate school course is exponentially better than a C. Advanced Organic Chemistry courses are ridiculous in graduate school (I had to take 5 of them myself); Therefore, I don't think that a B- will ruin your chances where as a C would have had a substantial impact.

With respect to non-seminar courses, how many will you take in your program? For example, if you are only taking 5 "actual courses" in your program, you may want to consider taking an additional course (an undergrad course in Biology, for instance) to show that you can handle the coursework. I know that it can be a pain to balance research hours with coursework external to your department, but I took an undergraduate biochemistry course and a statistics course during graduate school to improve my BCMP GPA while I was performing research.
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Goro said:
OP is not doing as well as he should be. C's and B-'s are on the road to wait lists.
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gyngyn said:
..or worse.
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Thanks for the feedback!

I would imagine that MD/DO programs would recognize that seminar and research hours are basically considered GPA fluff hours, so I was far too optimistic on your chances OP.
 
chemguy79 said:
I think that @Goro and @gyngyn will provide better feedback, but a B- in a graduate school course is exponentially better than a C. Advanced Organic Chemistry courses are ridiculous in graduate school (I had to take 5 of them myself); Therefore, I don't think that a B- will ruin your chances where as a C would have had a substantial impact.

With respect to non-seminar courses, how many will you take in your program? For example, if you are only taking 5 "actual courses" in your program, you may want to consider taking an additional course (an undergrad course in Biology, for instance) to show that you can handle the coursework. I know that it can be a pain to balance research hours with coursework external to your department, but I took an undergraduate biochemistry course and a statistics course during graduate school to improve my BCMP GPA while I was performing research.
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I plan on taking 3 more "actual" courses for the program. I wouldn't be surprised if they all ended with a B or higher grade. Advanced Orgo here is said to be the most difficult. I may have scored the highest on the Final though. Thanks a lot for your feedback!
 
Goro said:
OP is not doing as well as he should be. C's and B-'s are on the road to wait lists.
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chemguy79 said:
Thanks for the feedback!

I would imagine that MD/DO programs would recognize that seminar and research hours are basically considered GPA fluff hours, so I was far too optimistic on your chances OP.
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I would agree that research hours and seminar hours are fluff grades, but many majors (English,history, etc.) have far more fluff classes than science majors, even though both take the necessary pre-reqs. I went to see a medical school adviser a year or two ago, and he mentioned that a Masters in public safety major with a 3.9 gpa is more competitive than a Masters with a 3.1 gpa in chemical engineering.

Fluff classes or not, medical school seem to have a habit of wanting high GPAs, just as long as youve had the pre-reqs at some point.

At either point, I scored the highest or second highest Advanced Orgo grade for the final in my graduate class. Its just how the class is at our University. I dont even think anyone scored an A or A-. I scored an A in orgo 2 in undergrad. Its hard to believe my chances are bad at acceptance, considering I know people who scored C's and B' in undergrad. orgo and went to medical school, which is considerably easier.

Opinions? Thoughts? I appreciate it guys!
 
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ChemKing01 said:
I would agree that research hours and seminar hours are fluff grades, but many majors (English,history, etc.) have far more fluff classes than science majors, even though both take the necessary pre-reqs. I went to see a medical school adviser a year or two ago, and he mentioned that a Masters in public safety major with a 3.9 gpa is more competitive than a Masters with a 3.1 gpa in chemical engineering.

Fluff classes or not, medical school seem to have a habit of wanting high GPAs, just as long as youve had the pre-reqs at some point.

At either point, I scored the highest or second highest Advanced Orgo grade for the final in my graduate class. Its just how the class is at our University. I dont even think anyone scored an A or A-. I scored an A in orgo 2 in undergrad. Its hard to believe my chances are bad at acceptance, considering I know people who scored C's and B' in undergrad. orgo and went to medical school, which is considerably easier.

Opinions? Thoughts? I appreciate it guys!
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The fact remains that AdComs recognize that graduate seminar classes and graduate research hours are guaranteed A's unless you fail to attend or destroy a piece of equipment. I would imagine that they will recalculate your GPA with respect to the actual courses that you're taking versus the guaranteed A's in seminar and research hours.

Frankly, I would trust the judgement of @Goro and @gyngyn when they say that they are wary of your chances given that they are AdComs at medical schools. Whether or not you find it hard to believe is a moot point.

Doug Underhill said:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...on-traditional-student.1015233/#post-14181633

This student had a 3.35 gGPA, Goro said they were fine, and they were accepted somewhere for the 2013-2014 app cycle.
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Two comments:
1. Said applicant was strictly shooting for DO programs; The OP was inquiring about MD and DO programs.
2. This applicant had a 3.35 gGPA, so the applicant was not making C or B-'s in their program. In addition, the applicant has a PhD, 2 years as a post-doc, 5 years as a graduate research fellow, adjunct professor, etc.

The situations are completely different.
 
I guess I will ask this question then. Would a B really have made that big of a difference compared to a B-? I feel like if I would have gotten a B, then the adcoms here would be seeing that as a huge difference?
 
chemguy79 said:
2. This applicant had a 3.35 gGPA, so the applicant was not making C or B-'s in their program. In addition, the applicant has a PhD, 2 years as a post-doc, 5 years as a graduate research fellow, adjunct professor, etc.

The situations are completely different.
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ChemKing says he'll have somewhere between a 3.3 and a 3.6 when he completes his program. That applicant was just used as an example of a sub 3.5 grad GPA not excluding a person from medical school. It sounds like if he has a competitive undergrad GPA, a competitive MCAT, good ECs, and the ability to interview well, the subpar grad GPA is not going to doom him.
 
Doug Underhill said:
ChemKing says he'll have somewhere between a 3.3 and a 3.6 when he completes his program. That applicant was just used as an example of a sub 3.5 grad GPA not excluding a person from medical school. It sounds like if he has a competitive undergrad GPA, a competitive MCAT, good ECs, and the ability to interview well, the subpar grad GPA is not going to doom him.
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Thanks for the optimism. One of the DO schools in my state has an average of 3.48 sGPA, and an MCAT average of 26.

Lets say I have a 3.33 gpa in my Chemistry Masters, an MCAT score of 29(I take it in the summer, but Ive had practice scores in the 30s), a publication or two, helped start a successful club at my college based on Global Health(complete success), volunteered helping animals/homeless citizens, was part of the American Chemical Society, was a lab instructor for general chemistry class labs, nurses chemistry labs, teacher assistant for organic chemistry lab, and had excellent LORs.

Would I have a decent shot?
 
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Course content also counts. I'm impressed with doing well in Anatomy, Physiology, Micro, etc courses than I would be in "Organic Synthesis" or "Modifying and Nucleophilic Reactions"


chemguy79 said:
Thanks for the feedback!

I would imagine that MD/DO programs would recognize that seminar and research hours are basically considered GPA fluff hours, so I was far too optimistic on your chances OP.
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Goro said:
Course content also counts. I'm impressed with doing well in Anatomy, Physiology, Micro, etc courses than I would be in "Organic Synthesis" or "Modifying and Nucleophilic Reactions"
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Is that because those courses are mostly related to Medical School? It can't be due to difficulty. I scored an A+ in Immunology in undergrad. and it was one of the easiest courses I've ever taken in science, despite biology majors who told me it wasn't a good idea because I was mostly a chemistry major. The average in many biology courses I took were around B+, while many of the chemistry courses I've taken, the average was closer to B-.

I have been a lab instructor for nurses chemistry, which includes organic chemistry and general chemistry kind of mixed together.

It would be kind of ironic that scoring higher(A- to A) in a class I teach could mean more than scoring decently(B- to B+ is realistic for this class) in a graduate chemistry course.

I guess Im slightly frustrated and discouraged, because people are suppose to score between B- and B+ in these classes. An A- is only handed out to maybe one student a year for the class. Do you just see the class, as another B- science grade? Do all Adcoms see it only as this?
 
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Yeah, the B- isn't going to kill you, but you should still try to ace every other course and do well on the MCAT just to prove that it's the exception to the rule.
 
Doug Underhill said:
Yeah, the B- isn't going to kill you, but you should still try to ace every other course and do well on the MCAT just to prove that it's the exception to the rule.
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Thats the thing though, there are still 6 credits of classes left in my M.S. program where no one will likely score an A. Thats the nature of the program. The professors are wanting us to get ready for a Ph.D in chemistry, so to them, the highest grade is often a A- or B+, not an A. However, I am confident I can score at least a B in those courses. Add the research credits and another 4 credit course Im taking, and they should all average together to get me at worst a 3.3, and at best a 3.6, and most realistically a gpa of 3.4-3.55 at the end of the program.

Basically, I feel like I will end with a gpa between 3.3 and 3.6, and MCAT score of a 29-33. (very realistic)
 
ChemKing01 said:
Thanks for the optimism. One of the DO schools in my state has an average of 3.48 sGPA, and an MCAT average of 26.

Lets say I have a 3.33 gpa in my Chemistry Masters, an MCAT score of 29(I take it in the summer, but Ive had practice scores in the 30s), a publication or two, helped start a successful club at my college based on Global Health(complete success), volunteered helping animals/homeless citizens, was part of the American Chemical Society, was a lab instructor for general chemistry class labs, nurses chemistry labs, teacher assistant for organic chemistry lab, and had excellent LORs.

Would I have a decent shot?
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I hope you realize that the current MCAT scoring system will be defunct by February 2015. If you take it next summer, you'll be graded on an entirely different scale. If you wish to be graded on a 0-45 scale, you need to take it in January (it's scheduled for January 8, 10, and 13), as the exam will be changing after that.
 
Goro said:
Yes.
Is that because those courses are mostly related to Medical School?


Yes.

Do you just see the class, as another B- science grade? Do all Adcoms see it only as this?
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Thanks for the honesty!

The level of difficulty of the course or the degree does not matter?

If the science course doesnt matter, then research credits should surely be viewed nearly as significant as courses.

The fact I scored an A in Organic II in undergrad. doesnt matter?

Being a general chemistry lab instructor and being an organic chemistry T.A. doesnt dilute grades such as B- or Bs? (Being that teaching and grading my own chemistry classes would show some academic ability).
 
jb94mg said:
I hope you realize that the current MCAT scoring system will be defunct by February 2015. If you take it next summer, you'll be graded on an entirely different scale. If you wish to be graded on a 0-45 scale, you need to take it in January (it's scheduled for January 8, 10, and 13).
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Ok thanks! I will probably take the 2015 MCAT, as physics was usually my undoing on the first MCAT, its now diluted.
 
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You've already taken the MCAT? What was your original MCAT score?

That's another piece of the puzzle that may help/hinder your application. Some schools will average your MCAT scores.

For @gyngyn @Goro
How will your program viewing applicants who have taken the "old" MCAT and the "new" MCAT? Are you guys standardizing the score of the "new" MCAT to the "old" MCAT scale? Will taking both versions of the MCAT hurt your application since retakes are usually viewed as a scenario where your score must improve in order for it to be valuable?
 
I havent taken the old MCAT, I was talking about practice MCATs. I take the new MCAT in the summer, and hopefully get a publication during that time.
 
To tell the truth, we have no idea of what the new MCAT scores will look like and get a feel for what's a"good score" for a few years. At least we'll have the percentiles.


chemguy79 said:
You've already taken the MCAT? What was your original MCAT score?

That's another piece of the puzzle that may help/hinder your application. Some schools will average your MCAT scores.

For @gyngyn @Goro
How will your program viewing applicants who have taken the "old" MCAT and the "new" MCAT? Are you guys standardizing the score of the "new" MCAT to the "old" MCAT scale? Will taking both versions of the MCAT hurt your application since retakes are usually viewed as a scenario where your score must improve in order for it to be valuable?
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