All Branch Topic (ABT) Class of 2015 Military Match Thread

[Snowdon48]

Anyone have info on how the AF Peds match went this year?

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[crabdoc4]

Can anyone post the selection list for the Navy? Or PM me the list? Thanks!!!

 

[KinesStudent]

Can anyone post the selection list for the Navy? Or PM me the list? Thanks!!!

Me too please!

 

[Chonal Atresia]

Just got the master list. Nobody matched to Navy PM&R again this year. Two alternates for NCC and one alternate for deferment. Alternate means "we liked you, but we didn't have a spot".

Be thankful. You can now escape military medicine and apply to the civilian match.

 

[Homunculus]

heard that no navy peds subs got picked up either. army had their typical complement it sounds like but i'm not sure how the individual specialties broke down. i feel bad for the navy folks but it may help them with their stay/GTFO decision.

--your friendly neighborhood was sad to cancel his civilian interviews back in the day caveman

 

[backrow]

I have heard from a couple people who were at the board that the fellowship selections were brutal this year on the Navy side. I have a feeling there were very limited opportunities although a couple friends have posted about their selection.

 

[j4pac]

Be thankful. You can now escape military medicine and apply to the civilian match.

LOL. Very true. I am currently in the civilian match and it looks like I have a fighting chance to match. I'm a military guy who always anticipated doing 20...so getting out does provoke a bit of anxiety. But I am sure that civilian life will grow on me.

Thanks.

 

[DrMetal]

I have heard from a couple people who were at the board that the fellowship selections were brutal this year on the Navy side. I have a feeling there were very limited opportunities although a couple friends have posted about their selection.

In what specialty? Medicine? (I know a few who got shafted)

 

[j4pac]

To summarize the Navy board...

If you want to do primary care...you're golden, especially after GMO.

If you want to do anything other than primary care...good luck, even coming off a deployment cycle. The same applies to Fellowship.

It is very clear to me that Navy Medicine is a sinking ship. It breaks my heart to say it but it's true. The leadership is failing significantly...from the top to the bottom. The Navy has steadily been cutting funding to scholarship programs which recruit prior service and instead have opted for increasing MCAT requirements for applicants and occasionally putting a signing bonus in front of students to bump numbers.

The problem with this strategy is that it will bring in a TON of 4 years and out type of applicants. Retention is going to continue to be awful.

The 95% get what they want line is BS. This year one person got selected to Neurology...two were alternates...and who knows how many were nonselects. And we are talking about frickin Neurology.

I know a guy who just came off an elected deployment after being an alternate for his field of choice last year. This year he was a nonselect...a guy right of med school got the spot.

 

[Coug]

To summarize the Navy board...

If you want to do primary care...you're golden, especially after GMO.

If you want to do anything other than primary care...good luck, even coming off a deployment cycle. The same applies to Fellowship.

It is very clear to me that Navy Medicine is a sinking ship. It breaks my heart to say it but it's true. The leadership is failing significantly...from the top to the bottom. The Navy has steadily been cutting funding to scholarship programs which recruit prior service and instead have opted for increasing MCAT requirements for applicants and occasionally putting a signing bonus in front of students to bump numbers.

The problem with this strategy is that it will bring in a TON of 4 years and out type of applicants. Retention is going to continue to be awful.

The 95% get what they want line is BS. This year one person got selected to Neurology...two were alternates...and who knows how many were nonselects. And we are talking about frickin Neurology.

I know a guy who just came off an elected deployment after being an alternate for his field of choice last year. This year he was a nonselect...a guy right of med school got the spot.

What you're advocating just perpetuates the awful GMO system. If you keep taking people with sub-par grades/scores into competitive specialties just because they spent time being a GMO/prior service over very competitive students, people aren't going to join Navy medicine at all. When students are thinking of applying for Navy medicine, and they find out they have to spend 2-4 years being a functional PA before they even have a chance, they won't apply. Merits not experience should dictate who gets a residency.

 

[pgg]

I have heard from a couple people who were at the board that the fellowship selections were brutal this year on the Navy side. I have a feeling there were very limited opportunities although a couple friends have posted about their selection.

I just skimmed through the list. No FTOS fellowships for anesthesia - expected but disappointing to see the trend continue.

There's some other oddness to it that I'm still trying to figure out. GME1 and GME2+ are jumbled together. It's also a PDF that I can't sort or import into Excel. Rumor has it ortho and ENT didn't fill their PGY2 classes this year.

 

[backrow]

In what specialty? Medicine? (I know a few who got shafted)

All of them from what I heard

 

[Perrotfish]

It is very clear to me that Navy Medicine is a sinking ship. It breaks my heart to say it but it's true. The leadership is failing significantly...from the top to the bottom. The Navy has steadily been cutting funding to scholarship programs which recruit prior service and instead have opted for increasing MCAT requirements for applicants and occasionally putting a signing bonus in front of students to bump numbers.

The problem with this strategy is that it will bring in a TON of 4 years and out type of applicants. Retention is going to continue to be awful.

One of the advantages (to the Navy) of the GMO system is that it effectively keeps people in for longer before they first have the option to get out, which means that at the first opportunity people have to get out they'll be at the same point in their 20 year career as a prior service guy would be in another branch of service.

 

[DJBee]

One of the advantages (to the Navy) of the GMO system is that it effectively keeps people in for longer before they first have the option to get out, which means that at the first opportunity people have to get out they'll be at the same point in their 20 year career as a prior service guy would be in another branch of service.

Can't people do a GMO tour for say 2-3 years and get an extensive to fulfill their 4 year obligation and if they cannot get a residency in the military, then have the option to go to civilian?

 

[j4pac]

What you're advocating just perpetuates the awful GMO system. If you keep taking people with sub-par grades/scores into competitive specialties just because they spent time being a GMO/prior service over very competitive students, people aren't going to join Navy medicine at all. When students are thinking of applying for Navy medicine, and they find out they have to spend 2-4 years being a functional PA before they even have a chance, they won't apply. Merits not experience should dictate who gets a residency.

I am curious about your background. Resident, staff...?

 

[Perrotfish]

Can't people do a GMO tour for say 2-3 years and get an extensive to fulfill their 4 year obligation and if they cannot get a residency in the military, then have the option to go to civilian?

Yes, they can. They can't force you to go to residency if you don't want to. However the residency spots for returning GMOs do generally fill.

 

[Coug]

I am curious about your background. Resident, staff...?

Such snark... My statement still stands. You should not get all of the neurodermaradiologic surgery spots if you were a below average student who struggled, just because you were a flight surgeon for 8 years. Never ending cycle if you do that. 1 tour isn't enough. Then 2 isn't. And so on.

 

[colbgw02]

Such snark... My statement still stands. You should not get all of the neurodermaradiologic surgery spots if you were a below average student who struggled, just because you were a flight surgeon for 8 years. Never ending cycle if you do that. 1 tour isn't enough. Then 2 isn't. And so on.

This is specious reasoning. The GMO system exists, regardless of branch, because it's more convenient and expediant to continue it than otherwise, not because "below average" students are stealing all of the spots from highly qualified MS4s. This decision is made at the "Big Army" or "Big Navy" level because they need warm bodies for their operational positions. In other words, if all of the Navy's GMOs collectively decided to separate prior to residency, thereby freeing up every single GME spot for graduating medical students, then there would still be GMOs. Why? Because the Navy wants them.

 

[Homunculus]

This is specious reasoning. The GMO system exists, regardless of branch, because it's more convenient and expediant to continue it than otherwise, not because "below average" students are stealing all of the spots from highly qualified MS4s. This decision is made at the "Big Army" or "Big Navy" level because they need warm bodies for their operational positions. In other words, if all of the Navy's GMOs collectively decided to separate prior to residency, thereby freeing up every single GME spot for graduating medical students, then there would still be GMOs. Why? Because the Navy wants them.

i think his concerns have some level of legitimacy, but it's kind of like social welfare programs. yes, there are going to be a small fraction of people who abuse the system, but does that make the program bad? i've seen some sub-par people get fellowships that otherwise wouldn't have without the "extra credit" operational time confers, but this is more due to lack of applicants than them being rewarded unjustly. residency slots i'm not as sure-- but i also feel like the difference between an MS4 and PGY1 applicant isn't as great as coug suggests. i've seen poor students and poor PGY1s turn things around, and likewise have seen strong paper applicants fall on their faces. using an "n" of 1 year to effectively block a GMO from returning makes as much sense as blocking poor students from matching.

the vast majority of GMOs are not bottom of the barrel below average applicants. and since the services have basically told congress to F off after being told to do away with GMO's over a decade ago (or so) it's the only way they can maintain the system-- and as colbgw02 says, the GMO system isn't going anywhere. i am 99% sure they are contractually obligated to complete your training if they send you out. this came up several years ago when some GMO's sent out ofter their intern year had the scenario where they may not have had a residency to return to in order to complete years 2-3.

the issue is not with rewarding GMO/operational time, the issue is applicant selection in the first place-- which will always be a crapshoot. in my opinion that's where it falls on the program directors to separate the wheat from the chaff.

--your friendly neighborhood TGIF caveman

 

[colbgw02]

i think his concerns have some level of legitimacy, but it's kind of like social welfare programs. yes, there are going to be a small fraction of people who abuse the system, but does that make the program bad? i've seen some sub-par people get fellowships that otherwise wouldn't have without the "extra credit" operational time confers

Seems like you're making a distinct, albeit related, point. To wit, that operational assignments permit unqualified applicants to get into training programs occasionally that they would otherwise never sniff. That is frustrating, particularly as someone who has to deal with people that fit this description daily, although I agree with you that it's not sufficiently egregious to justify the wholesale dismantling of the GMO system.

I was addressing Coug's assertion that the selection of GMOs for GME positions is somehow responsible for the perpetuation of the GMO system. It's not. The warfighters are going to get their GMO positions filled irrespective of what happens vis-a-vis GME until there is a top-down, enforceable mandate to change it.

 

[Homunculus]

I was addressing Coug's assertion that the selection of GMOs for GME positions is somehow responsible for the perpetuation of the GMO system. It's not. The warfighters are going to get their GMO positions filled irrespective of what happens vis-a-vis GME until there is a top-down, enforceable mandate to change it.

totally agree. and in researching this a bit, check this out: http://www.tricare.mil/tma/congress...130755-Military Medical Recruiting SIGNED.pdf specifically, page 13. they cite SDN as a source! JFC lol

--your friendly neighborhood maybe they'll cite this thread too caveman

 

[Homunculus]

this is the thread they cited: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/anyone-actually-done-a-navy-gmo-tour.77416/

fascinating.

--your friendly neighborhood wondering what SDN's impact factor is now caveman

 

[pgg]

Ah, that's great, no, it's awesome. A thread with MedicalCorpse posting got cited by The Man. LOL.

 

[ChimRichalds]

Some excellent points.

This topic is brought up every year, and remains the same in content. Individuals are not selected and they feel that some sort of injustice has occurred. Many times this is true, and I am empathetic for those people. However, more often than not, the applicant is not competitive. Just because someone "puts in the time," his/her academic shortcomings should not be overlooked because he/she did two GMO tours... If a person is not competitive for Anesthesia/Derm/etc, they should be guided to a less competitive field.

If your board scores suck, think of a different field. If they are less than what would be considered average for the civilian match, publish papers and max your research points.

I wish you all the best of luck, and congrats to those who matched!

 

[deuist]

Nothing short of amazing that SDN got referenced by Congress.

 

[j4pac]

Such snark... My statement still stands. You should not get all of the neurodermaradiologic surgery spots if you were a below average student who struggled, just because you were a flight surgeon for 8 years. Never ending cycle if you do that. 1 tour isn't enough. Then 2 isn't. And so on.

You didn't answer my question. I want to make sure I am talking intelligently to someone with a clue of how military medicine works before proceeding. You sound like someone with a great deal of knowledge about military medicine, so I would like to know your background.

 

[chronick]

Just got the master list. Nobody matched to Navy PM&R again this year. Two alternates for NCC and one alternate for deferment. Alternate means "we liked you, but we didn't have a spot".

Do you know how many were picked up for derm at San Diego?

 

[j4pac]

Do you know how many were picked up for derm at San Diego?

I will let you know when I get back to my office on Monday.

 

[Kilgoretrout 65]

"it falls on the program directors to separate the wheat from the chaff"

Yep. I sympathize with the program directors because I have seen a recent shift - a 180 turn really - where
current interns and GMOs are not given respect for the time they have put in, the maturity they may have gained,
and the knowledge of medicine and our system. Lets face it, med students, if they rotate at all are not given
the responsibility the other groups are and are not tested in the trenches. The PDs have to decide whether to
take that med student they have seen for a couple weeks based on mostly test taking skills versus someone who has
proven they can be relied on to show up on time, get along with others, and not kill too many patients along the way.

I predict we will see more and more professionalism issues from giving the doogie howser types too much credit
for their board scores and GPA. As staff in a training program, I would rather work with a resident who needs a little
work on medical knowledge than someone who can't be trusted to tell the truth or can't get along with the support staff because they are "beneath them" somehow in their make believe world that revolves around themselves.

Or maybe it is just time for me to retire.

 

[pgg]

I predict we will see more and more professionalism issues from giving the doogie howser types too much credit
for their board scores and GPA.

Wha???

PGY1s who go straight to PGY2 are "doogie howser" types with professionalism problems?

How oh how does the civilian world get by without GMOs?


Don't get me wrong, former GMOs are often super motivated and have picked up some judgment and experience during that 2-3 period of fending off the wolves they were tossed to, but let's not get carried away and start pretending there's something WRONG with taking a June 30th intern and making him a PGY2 resident on July 1st.

 

[Slevin]

Does anyone have info on residency spots for EM that were held for GMO's and how many applicants there were for those spots and what the overall select rate was?

Army doesn't usually supply that info to us


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[j4pac]

I really don't have a dog in the fight. I am heading to the civilian sector soon. I have been a med school applicant, internship applicant, and now a FS applicant for residency...and I have been competitive every time, but there just weren't spots open for my choice residency. I can live with that.

I don't believe that an applicant should be able to scrap by in medical school...barely pass the boards...and land Dermatology. I do believe that med school grades and board scores should be considered by residency boards...but there is no question that fleet experience should be apart of the calculation.

Why do I say this? Because as I interview at esteemed civilian programs such as Texas Medical Center and Mayo Clinic...THEY THINK THAT MY FLIGHT SURGEON EXPERIENCE IS VALUABLE. I am competitive for civilian programs because I have shown competence in med school, internship, and now on my fleet tour.

If competitive civilian programs find my clinical/leadership experience important...then shouldn't a military residency program?

 

[j4pac]

Does anyone have info on residency spots for EM that were held for GMO's and how many applicants there were for those spots and what the overall select rate was?

Army doesn't usually supply that info to us


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Slevin...

I would call your Army GME coordinator. The Navy coordinator was very willing to provide me that information.

If that fails, I would find your match list...go on global and email each of the folks who got positions. People are usually pretty willing to be helpful.

 

[colbgw02]

that's where it falls on the program directors to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I don't believe that an applicant should be able to scrap by in medical school...barely pass the boards...and land Dermatology. I do believe that med school grades and board scores should be considered by residency boards...but there is no question that fleet experience should be apart of the calculation.

I'm thinking that you meant "a part" rather than "apart". Otherwise, I'm confused as to which side of this issue you're on. But assuming that I'm reading you right, then I wholeheartedly agree. GMO experience is important and should be given due consideration, but it should not be used to cover up for an otherwise deficient application. Unfortunately, I've seen just that happen - substandard applicants taken after having completed multiple GMO tours.

To boot, the cases I'm familiar with came against the wishes of the program director, meaning that the national GME office overruled the local PD. It's why I also quoted to Homunculus, to point out that it's sometimes beyond the control of the PD. This is wrong on a lot of levels, and it's something that would be very difficult or impossible to do in civilian GME. Not surprisingly, these bad applicants turn out to be bad residents, but also, it's harder to kick someone out than it is to exclude them from entering. Not to mention that the bureaucracy of the military and ACGME seems to have a synergistic effect on this front, virtually assuring that these high-drag individuals will receive a residency diploma.

86 days...

 

[j4pac]

I'm thinking that you meant "a part" rather than "apart". Otherwise, I'm confused as to which side of this issue you're on. But assuming that I'm reading you right, then I wholeheartedly agree. GMO experience is important and should be given due consideration, but it should not be used to cover up for an otherwise deficient application. Unfortunately, I've seen just that happen - substandard applicants taken after having completed multiple GMO tours.

To boot, the cases I'm familiar with came against the wishes of the program director, meaning that the national GME office overruled the local PD. It's why I also quoted to Homunculus, to point out that it's sometimes beyond the control of the PD. This is wrong on a lot of levels, and it's something that would be very difficult or impossible to do in civilian GME. Not surprisingly, these bad applicants turn out to be bad residents, but also, it's harder to kick someone out than it is to exclude them from entering. Not to mention that the bureaucracy of the military and ACGME seems to have a synergistic effect on this front, virtually assuring that these high-drag individuals will receive a residency diploma.

86 days...

Who invited the grammar police?

You understood me correctly. I don't have a side. I believe that there are folks on both side of the coin who get screwed.

 

[colbgw02]

Who invited the grammar police?

You understood me correctly. I don't have a side. I believe that there are folks on both side of the coin who get screwed.

I wasn't trying to be snarky. I was legitimately confused, and I know it's easy to have autocorrect change what you type. But, hey, you gotta be you.

 

[Kilgoretrout 65]

Wha???

PGY1s who go straight to PGY2 are "doogie howser" types with professionalism problems?

How oh how does the civilian world get by without GMOs?


Don't get me wrong, former GMOs are often super motivated and have picked up some judgment and experience during that 2-3 period of fending off the wolves they were tossed to, but let's not get carried away and start pretending there's something WRONG with taking a June 30th intern and making him a PGY2 resident on July 1st.

Re-read my post. I mentioned current interns (PGY-1s).

And yes the civilian world gets by just fine without GMOs but what I am seeing is some perfectly good GMOs
are not getting credit for being successful GMOs when it comes selection board time.

 

[j4pac]

Re-read my post. I mentioned current interns (PGY-1s).

And yes the civilian world gets by just fine without GMOs but what I am seeing is some perfectly good GMOs
are not getting credit for being successful GMOs when it comes selection board time.

You're on point. People forget that most people who go on to do GMO/FS/UMO aren't underqualified applicants. Most are highly qualified and the reason they are going GMO/FS/UMO is because they are gunning for a residency other than primary care. The mass majority of people who want to go straight through in the primary care specialties can. It's the folks trying to get competitive residencies who are typically on GMO/FS/UMO tours.

It is NOT uncommon for military GMO/FS/UMO folks to not match military, then get out and get into a great civilian residency in their choice field.

I am interviewing at places like Mayo Clinic and Texas Medical Center...and they think that my military experience and work experience are a significant plus. If elite civilian residencies consider GMO/FS/UMO tours a significant plus...then why not the military? You would think that high evaluations in the fleet would be important for a military officer and physician...but I believe that is becoming less true.

The problem is that there is such a significant need for PCMs that it you can be the most competitive applicant in the world and it may not work out well for you if you want a non-primary care residency. Many applicants have to just decide to settle for primary care, or get out. I'm doing the later.

 

[doctorpurple]

Happy story here. Army branch and initially matched for my 2nd choice in Internal Medicine in Madigan. Did the rebuttal and now just got a confirmation that I got my first choice and I'm going to Water Reed for Internal Medicine! So happy that my husband and I can finally be together for residency.

 

[me83]

Does anyone know who we should contact to get a formal letter that states future income and start date of residency? I'm looking to get the ball rolling with a house mortgage. Thank you!!

 

[j4pac]

Happy story here. Army branch and initially matched for my 2nd choice in Internal Medicine in Madigan. Did the rebuttal and now just got a confirmation that I got my first choice and I'm going to Water Reed for Internal Medicine! So happy that my husband and I can finally be together for residency.

I am happy to hear that. I was also blessed with Walter Reed IM years ago with co-location issues. I loved the program. Onc is a beast. Enjoy.

 

[j4pac]

Does anyone know who we should contact to get a formal letter that states future income and start date of residency? I'm looking to get the ball rolling with a house mortgage. Thank you!!

It is incredibly easy to calculate your income based on the pay scales. Base pay + BAS + BAH + VSP. You can even plug your gross income into an online calculator and it will spit out your net income per month.

 

[Slevin]

When you figure out your net income don't include BAH or BAS into the total you give it to the calculator since those aren't taxed

 

[TurtleDO2012]

To help with mortgage applications and proof of expected income you should contact the head GME office at your next duty station. Usually the secretary there will produce a letter indicating your expected monthly income and the loan officer typically accepts this a means to confirm your expected monthly income.

 

[WanderingDO]

Just got the master list. Nobody matched to Navy PM&R again this year. Two alternates for NCC and one alternate for deferment. Alternate means "we liked you, but we didn't have a spot".

Would you be willing to share the list, please?

 

[j4pac]

.

 

[j4pac]

Would you be willing to share the list, please?

Check your inbox

 

[bulldogmed]

Check your inbox

can you send that to me as well? Thanks.

 

[j4pac]

can you send that to me as well? Thanks.

Check your inbox

 

[Slevin]

Does anyone have the match list for the army?