Clinical psychologist with over 200k in debt

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AnnoyedByFreud

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I have been doing research on student loan debt and came across this video of this woman (Psy D) w/over 200k in debt. I cannot seriously believe how naive this woman was and how screwed she let herself become. I seriously think any person who is looking to take out loans for graduate school should watch this video.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiCg92uKN5g[/YOUTUBE]

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If she bothered to read the documents she signed to get the loans (each and every time), then she would have known 99% of the things she said she did not or "did not think about it." Sigh...

I think its true that many people in that age group are financially naive, but I am not very accepting of the reasons they state for why they are so.
 
Wait! Did she just say that $1600 is a paycheck and 3rd for her?! You mean this woman makes 35k/year?!
 
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Surprised she's from IU-P and not an FSPS. Seriously, though, what 21 year-old thinks loans are "free money"?

Also, there's "nothing" you can do with an undergrad degree in psych, really? I know many people with psych bachelor's degrees who have jobs, both related to the field and not. Sure, it's not a specific career prep major, but most majors aren't.
 
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I have been doing research on student loan debt and came across this video of this woman (Psy D) w/over 200k in debt. I cannot seriously believe how naive this woman was and how screwed she let herself become. I seriously think any person who is looking to take out loans for graduate school should watch this video.

[YOUTUBE]
 
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I liked when she wonders why her degree isn't more marketable. Gee, I wonder why!
 
It is really frustrating that in about 5 minutes she blamed her professors, the financial aide people, and others for not telling HER about the financial side of her loans. Yay personal responsibility! :rolleyes:
 
The sheer lack of knowledge about outcomes and realistic opportunities in higher education is astounding. Even in my funded program, I was about the only person that had looked at the APA salary surveys and considered the income I would make once I graduated. I was the only one that made decisions about the course of my degree and areas of specialization based on job opportunities. Most of my colleagues chose this line to avoid dealing with finance and business issues. One of the things I learned from myfamily is that everything is a business, including healthcare, and going into healthcare does not mean you can avoid dealing with finances and overhead.
 
I respect the fact that she admits that she made a mistake and attempts to take accountability for it and warn others. She gets off course when she completely devalues graduate school and higher education as a whole. Graduate school requires a thorough cost-benefits analysis of both financial and personal resources, just like any other investment. The message to be conveyed to students is that she didn't do her homework and got burned, not "don't get a Psy.D." This is a mistake that is repeated throughout history.

Call me a bleeding heart victim-coddler, but IMHO, the blame lies with the academic institutions that have built their profit structure on superfluous government funding, naivete, desperation fueled by an unstable economy and fear-mongering media, and a blitz of "get an education" messages throughout grade school. The marketing departments of this institutions aren't exactly following the golden rule, either.
 
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I respect the fact that she admits that she made a mistake and attempts to take accountability for it and warn others. She gets off course when she completely devalues graduate school and higher education as a whole. Graduate school requires a thorough cost-benefits analysis of both financial and personal resources, just like any other investment. The message to be conveyed to students is that she didn't do her homework and got burned, not "don't get a Psy.D." This is a mistake that is repeated throughout history.

Call me a bleeding heart victim-coddler, but IMHO, the blame lies with the academic institutions that have built their profit structure on superfluous government funding, naivete, desperation fueled by an unstable economy and fear-mongering media, and a blitz of "get an education" messages throughout grade school. The marketing departments of this institutions aren't exactly following the golden rule, either.

I think you mean influence. The Ultimate responsibility/blame of course lies with the individual.
 
Poor judgement, but at least she was honest about the outcome. What she was saying about feeling like she is part of the working poor is very similar to what i've heard from other PHD/PsyD graduates who attended unfunded programs and are drowning in debt. I live in a state where there are more professional school graduates around so I hear this stuff all the time. She is accurate in that she would have been better off with her BA degree. She was saying that her criminal justice (not psychology) BA degree students land jobs for about 55K, and that she is earning 35K or so, but has 213K in debt to boot. That's why I feel the unfunded PsyD and PhD route can trap people into a life of near poverty.

The feeling of living paycheck to paycheck and barely getting by is how a lot of early career psychologists are feeling, particularly the ones with debt. I can understand why she regrets it.
 
A lot of justified criticisms here about her thoughts and course of action in the past, but that is in the past. I am amazed at the amount of courage it takes for her to say some of the things she said as a non-tenured professor (e.g., her stating that she has to defacto lie to her students to keep them in their major, her feelings on the state of higher education, etc.). Very powerful. I wonder if any of her students or colleagues saw the video :scared:

I think you mean influence. The Ultimate responsibility/blame of course lies with the individual.
 
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It looks like she is including the loans from all of her schooling....community college, undergrad, and grad school. So, not just the PsyD program. She says that she was in the Marine Corps prior to going to community college, I wonder why she didn't use her Veterans Benefits to help pay for college. Or maybe she used it for tuition, but needed loans for cost of living?
 
I really empathize with her. I myself came from a family in which I am the first person to ever have gone to college. My mother was the sole income earner in the family of three I lived in. She couldn't afford to even pay my schooling, so, I had to resort to doing my first two years at a community college and the last at the university. I worked full time, commuted 45 minutes every way about three times a week. I got my diploma and a bill for $47,000. My B.A. is in sociology and psychology. I was smart enough to work my ass off to at least have the option of going to graduate school. I have since been accepted and will be attending my master's program. I am due to be married next week in Boston (I live in Dallas...we are homosexuals). My fiancee of four years has stood by my side in rough situations, and I have done the same for him. We also split our bills with our roommate we have. My first year in my master's degree I will be utilizing $24,700 in aid, of which, $20,500 are in loans. This will be used to pay for tuition and my bills. I do not have a job at the moment and my unemployment benefits run out, and I also have food stamps.

I figured I would use this money to make sure I do very well in the master's program and really get involved with research and labs. I had previously made a career change from being a broke classical musician to the social/ behavioral sciences. I spent 13 years of my life being a musician and teacher.

At the end of the day, getting an education should not be a game of weighing whether one's parents can afford it, or getting that basketball scholarship. There are many Americans who want and can be educated and contributing members to society, but, with this many obstacles and formalities, who would want to? Her point was, why would she "educate" her students to go down a path that is not as cut and paste as one would think. Essentially, if people are not getting degrees in accounting, business, engineering, etc. then employment prospects are very slim.

I do what I do because I do want to help people. It would be the same reason if I decided to go down the medical school path. At the end of the day, I want to provide a service of helping people with mental impairments to live a more optimal life. Whether I get a Ph.D., M.D., M.S.W, etc. to do so, I do want good pay. I am not one to take the biological epigenetic approach to mental treatment. I find the framework very useful but I prefer much of the non-pharmacological approaches and theories to helping people.

My $.02 is in...my sedative-hypnotic is kicking in, so, good night! (apologies for any incoherent sentences I may have typed...it's late).
 
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More than 50% come from training programs that cause 6 figure type debt now. We are populating our field with people who cannot think properly. Ethically and with respect to the future of our field, it is imperative that we stop this. This is why, at the internship program where I work, I have strongly recommended discarding any NCSPP program app. I don't think we should be supporting the model.

I agree with you that we have an ethical obligation to do something about debt levels in our field. This type of black and white thinking though is not going to be helpful. There are several programs on that list that are tougher to get into than many PhD programs, have small class sizes, and actually fund their students (at least partially) and provide excellent clinical training and research experience (Baylor, Rutgers as one example). These programs also have appox. 98% EPPP pass rates and average GPAs of 3.7. You are lumping together a group that is incredibly diverse on every measure. I'm sure your internship program did not agree with your assessment.
 
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. My first year in my master's degree I will be utilizing $24,700 in aid, of which, $20,500 are in loans. This will be used to pay for tuition and my bills. I do not have a job at the moment and my unemployment benefits run out, and I also have food stamps.

I also came from a family without financial resources, which is why I worked my ass off in college and made sure to go to a funded program and graduate without debt or no grad school for me. I will also likely be helping my parents financially. Your situation of taking out large amount of loans for an MA program may in fact keep you in poverty or near poverty ironically. Be careful. People who come from families without resources should be the most conservative when it comes to debt. If you cannot make one payment there is nobody to fall back on.
 
One has to wonder what the perceived return on investment is for people in this situation. Assuming one knows the financial rewards are unlikely, then the individual's perveived reward must be nonmonetary and nonrational.

object petit a.
 
One has to wonder what the perceived return on investment is for people in this situation. Assuming one knows the financial rewards are unlikely , then the individual's perveived reward must be nonmonetary and nonrational.

object petit a.

I think it has more to do with believing that while unlikely, they will be the exception. We see this play out anecdotally on SDN all of the time.

Person 1: "I want to attend Program X."
Person 2: "Ok. Did you know that Program X only has a 15% APA-acred. match rate?"
Person 1: "Well...I'll be one of that 15% that matches."
Person 2: "That is really hard to do these days with the imbalance."
Person 1: "Well...I know I can do it."
Person 2: *face palm*

ps. I believe it is "objet petit a", though my French is quite rusty.
 
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Some do (agree with my assessment), but I agree with you, I doubt that they will uniformly not consider students from any program on the list (some programs, yes, but not all). For what its worth, I did have other reasons for the recommendation. I am a strong advocate for scientific thinking in our clinical practice, thus I favor students from clinical scientist and scientist practitioner model programs. I am lumping together programs, I agree. I think they (e.g., Baylor/Rutgers) should divorce themselves from affiliation with that group.


Some have done so, the Virginia Consoetium program is now a PHD program and always provided funding. Ironically, Adelphi and Yeshiva both offer phD programs and Adelphi is only PhD if I am not mistaken.
 
I also wonder about her practicum and internship training and its effects on her ability to secure other types of employment/make a larger income. Why would a new grad opt to take a teaching position in criminal justice? Was this her only option? I attend an unfunded program, which forces me to be very vigilant about my practicum placements and internship searches. I can't imagine undertaking that level of debt without having some focused, concrete plan about how to finance it.
 
I also wonder about her practicum and internship training and its effects on her ability to secure other types of employment/make a larger income.

I also was curious about that, so I looked it up. Her internship was APA-accredited.
 
t4c,

mon dieu!

Assuming your formulation is correct, this is an objet petite a. The unlikeliness is the necessary conditionto prove exception. However, the ease of proving the exception in this situation is a lot like Kramer in karate class.

Which means just about nothing, other than to convey my own narcissim and inability to communicate in two languages.
 
Everyone is looking for a big problem here. However, she works in Upstate NY. An assistant professor or lecturer position there will be about $50-60k on average. That works out to about $35-40k after taxes. There is a reason why Phd programs are generally funded... Being a university professor at a smaller college does not make one rich. If this woman wanted to be an academic, she picked the wrong type of program. Then again, I find the majority of academia to be the equivalent of indentured servitude (r1, AMC, VA, etc are exceptions). Why she would not choose to do some clinical work for additional income I do not know. Perhaps she did not choose to pursue a license and accrue post-doc hours. In any event, it is a lesson to us all. She is not a bottom of the barrel candidate and probably underwent good training. The issue is that paying such large sums for an education is untenable nevertheless. Would it make a difference if she accrued this debt to go to a second or third tier law school and was making $60k (as most of the lawyers from decent state schools I know are making)? The issue is that the cost of education in this country is spiraling out of control And one needs to plan appropriately to achieve career goals and not go broke. Remember that debt is th enemy of freedom of choice.
 
I think in this case in particular we have an example of a person who grossly mismanaged her education. IUP is reputable, public, and (until this year, but that's another story) provides at least half tuition remission + a stipend of a few thousand dollars. Many students get full remission and a stipend closer to 10k. There are other avenues to reduce the cost further. Debt free? No... But it can be done including the masters and living expenses for much less than a quarter of this woman's total debt. Something else is amiss here. She could also be supplementing her income in a variety of ways, it seems she isn't terribly motivated?
 
I think in this case in particular we have an example of a person who grossly mismanaged her education. IUP is reputable, public, and (until this year, but that's another story) provides at least half tuition remission + a stipend of a few thousand dollars. Many students get full remission and a stipend closer to 10k. There are other avenues to reduce the cost further. Debt free? No... But it can be done including the masters and living expenses for much less than a quarter of this woman's total debt. Something else is amiss here. She could also be supplementing her income in a variety of ways, it seems she isn't terribly motivated?

Her debt level even though it sounds absurd is not unusual for PsyD programs. She had 40K in undergrad deb so her total PsyD debt is 173K. IUP is about 20K per year in tuition alone in state, and 26K per year for out of state. If you include living expenses for at least 4 years, It completely makes sense. From what i've heard from students, IUP does not provide half tuition remission to everyone so I don't think it's uniform. Most people underestimate the debt they will owe when they sign up for any of these programs.
 
Her debt level even though it sounds absurd is not unusual for PsyD programs. She had 40K in undergrad deb so her total PsyD debt is 173K. IUP is about 20K per year in tuition alone in state, and 26K per year for out of state. If you include living expenses for at least 4 years. It completely makes sense. From what i've heard from students, IUP does not provide half tuition remission to everyone so I don't think it's uniform. Most people underestimate the debt they will owe when they sign up for any of these programs.

You can check their website for stats or read their brochure. Every student got half remission plus a small stipend at a minimum. The most an out of state person could have paid a few years back would have been something like 35 or 40k minus 15k in stipend money, for all four years. Everyone was eligible for half tuition remission plus the stipend, I see one person over 7 years that didn't take it (her? lol). As I mentioned, some get full remission plus around 35k in stipend money or better...

Point is her IUP cost couldn't have been more than about 20 or 25k plus books... That's it. A two person apartment there is like $3,600 a year per person. She had other life expenses to be sure, but $173k!? No, it makes no sense.
 
What's this $2,000/year she is talking about? Can we all get that? lol
 
The issue is that the cost of education in this country is spiraling out of control And one needs to plan appropriately to achieve career goals and not go broke. Remember that debt is th enemy of freedom of choice.

Good point. Did you know though that median debt for PsyD (greater than 120K) has surpassed median law school debt while median salaries for lawyers are significantly higher (median of 120K)? Cost-benefit ratio while not good for law school, it's still better than an unfunded PsyD, and that doesn't include the time to completion differences. The PsyD starting salaries are actually very similar to average BA degree starting salaries.
 
You can check their website for stats or read their brochure. Every student got half remission plus a small stipend at a minimum. The most an out of state person could have paid a few years back would have been something like 35 or 40k minus 15k in stipend money, for all four years. Everyone was eligible for half tuition remission plus the stipend, I see one person over 7 years that didn't take it (her? lol). As I mentioned, some get full remission plus around 35k in stipend money or better...

Point is her IUP cost couldn't have been more than about 20 or 25k plus books... That's it. A two person apartment there is like $3,600 a year per person. She had other life expenses to be sure, but $173k!? No, it makes no sense.

You know I tend to sometimes be skeptical on SCD because there is a tendency for people to provide misinformation, particularly when it is about their own PsyD program and they have an incentive to make the program look good. Often times it is also unintentional. You've posted many times before about IUP...what is your agenda?

Also, when I checked the website, the funding issue is not in line with what your are saying above and what i've heard from current students. The website says that the assistantships are selectively awarded and there is nowhere on the website that says that every student gets at least half tuition remission.

Here is what they say:

Assistantships, Fellowships, and Other Funding Available

The below funding is dependent on funding available for each academic year.

We have to this point been able to provide some funding for all students in the program. This situation could change.



Assistantships

Graduate assistantships at IUP are selectively awarded to highly qualified graduate students who have been admitted to degree programs. Assistantships are awarded on the basis of academic excellence rather than financial need.


What about the above indicates that everyone gets 50% tuition remission plus a stipend at minimum? Maybe it changed drastically in the past year.
 
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I've been trying to fight student loans from the beginning. I've been successful overall (eighteen graduate credits currently), but by the time my enlistment is up, I will have little money saved. I am hoping to get an HPSP slot next year. I still have my GI bill as well.

I want to say thanks to all of you, because I did not realize the various assistantship (apprenticeship, teaching aid, etc...) options that are out there. I originally was planning to take some debt because the GI bill only lasts for 36 months. Now I know I have more options.
 
You know I tend to sometimes be skeptical on SCD because there is a tendency for people to provide misinformation, particularly when it is about their own PsyD program and they have an incentive to make the program look good. Often times it is also unintentional. You've posted many times before about IUP...what is your agenda?

Also, when I checked the website, the funding issue is not in line with what your are saying above and what i've heard from current students. The website says that the assistantships are selectively awarded and there is nowhere on the website that says that every student gets at least half tuition remission.

Here is what they say:

Assistantships, Fellowships, and Other Funding Available

The below funding is dependent on funding available for each academic year.

We have to this point been able to provide some funding for all students in the program. This situation could change.



Assistantships

Graduate assistantships at IUP are selectively awarded to highly qualified graduate students who have been admitted to degree programs. Assistantships are awarded on the basis of academic excellence rather than financial need.


What about the above indicates that everyone gets 50% tuition remission plus a stipend at minimum? Maybe it changed drastically in the past year.

I don't have an agenda... I'm not sure what you think it could be? I applied there and have friends who recently graduated...I visited the campus, got the scoop from current students and staff. I'm very familiar with the program.

As I alluded to in my first post the the situation did in fact change. Starting with this years incomings students, no remission or stipend. $0 relief. All other students still have what I detailed. Supposedly everyone will have it again in 14 (tea party governor problems). Who knows? With regard to our friend in the video who cares? She got it.

I appreciate your skepticism. It's probably healthy. I also don't really care if you believe me or not, I just wanted to point out for those willing to hear it this ladies story is quite odd considering her programs costs.
 
I don't have an agenda... I'm not sure what you think it could be? I applied there and have friends who recently graduated...I visited the campus, got the scoop from current students and staff. I'm very familiar with the program.

As I alluded to in my first post the the situation did in fact change. Starting with this years incomings students, no remission or stipend. $0 relief. All other students still have what I detailed. Supposedly everyone will have it again in 14 (tea party governor problems). Who knows? With regard to our friend in the video who cares? She got it.

I appreciate your skepticism. It's probably healthy. I also don't really care if you believe me or not, I just wanted to point out for those willing to hear it this ladies story is quite odd considering her programs costs.

Like I have said before and like I will say again, you have to manage your debt load wisely and you have to make any accredited degree work for you.
 
Like I have said before and like I will say again, you have to manage your debt load wisely and you have to make any accredited degree work for you.

When 98% of PsyD programs do not provide any funding, how is this an issue of mismanaging debt as the core problem? The issue is making a decision to get a PsyD overall. There is currently only 1 PsyD program in the entire country that provides full funding so the likelihood of graduating with 6 figure debt is going to be a fact for over 90% of PsyD students who do not have wealthy families to help them. Everyone who finishes an MD graduates with 150K in debt. Are they also mismanaging debt?
 
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Instead of attacking our own (other psychologists) the outrage should be that persons with PhDs are taking jobs that pay $35K
 
Does anyone have the link to the video since it was removed?
 
Instead of attacking our own (other psychologists) the outrage should be that persons with PhDs are taking jobs that pay $35K

My understanding is that she finished internship and graduated in 2012 so she is not licensed yet and this is her first job out of school. I agree that the salary is very low, but I believe she said it's more like 50K. Isn't that in line with starting salaries for assistant professor positions at a very small 4 year public college? I have never heard of her school before and she is in the criminal justice department at The College at Brockport in upstate NY.
 
What she did is she took the heavily marketed, easiest path to getting an "education." She applied to the programs that would accept her without doing her due diligence to figure out what the alternative paths were and what the field was about. What I'd like to do is make it much harder to do that.

I got through undergrad and graduate school with no debt. I paid no tuition. I worked in undergrad to support my living expenses (played in bands and other sorts of odd jobs). On internship and postdoc, early on, I lived in a big city and living expenses were tough so I worked as a musician to pay my grocery bills. When I made my decisions, I was always cognizant of the finances. I got into some very well thought of schools for undergrad. I was offered some financial assistance to attend all institutions applied to including things like waiving out of state tuition, music scholarships, and so on. I chose a lesser ranked in-state school that offered me a full academic scholarship. I would not have gone to graduate school in clinical psychology if I had to pay for it. Too risky. That's a lot of time and opportunity cost for an uncertain payoff. And, another note for thought, I went to a clinical science program. I effectively make 3 times what this woman makes. Same field? Sorta. These programs are selling borrowed prestige and putting people into social work. Which can also be a poor financial decision.

If you are not able to get scholarships and your parents are not wealthy or not willing to pay (mine were wealthy, I didn't want them to pay), the fiscally responsible answer, if you want to go to college, is go get an AA degree from community college and then do two years at a state school while working to minimize debt. There's no reason to graduate from undergrad with 50K in debt. I'd have been pissed if I got out of graduate school with 50K in debt. I am not unique. Lots of people work through school and minimize debt. There is a former student from our lab (an undergraduate volunteer) who made it through 4 years of undergrad with no debt (all at a 4 year state institution, no community college) by working at a grocery store.


Financial decisions are something people need to know about. Talk about money.

I come from a family that provides no support in my education. I went to a community college for my first two years of undergrad and worked full time and commuted to live in a cheaper area...you do the best with what you can. Many people have affordances that not everyone will have. I had good grades, I certainly did not have scholarships. After I graduated, I often asked myself what things could I have done differently, and the answer is: I'm sure a lot, but when you don't know, you don't know.

I worked full time during my undergraduate career, I didn't have the time available to conduct research as an undergraduate student. I know plenty of people who had this issue as well, as I am sure there are people whom had the opposite experience. I worked my ass off so I could go onto a career as a psychologist. I was a professional classical musician before this, I changed careers. Behind all of this, I knew that if I wanted a college degree, I would need financial assistance. My parents sure as hell wouldn't pay for it, my job covered my living expenses, I even had my fiancee chip in a lot of his earnings to help me. This whole idea that a certain percent of people who come from families that can afford to put their child through school, or have an affordance to get a scholarship is an exception, not the rule.

With my accolades and grades, I would have thought that I could get scholarships, but unfortunately I didn't. At the end of the day, I got a college education for the sake of educating myself, to not become another desk jockey like I had been doing, and what my mother has been doing for 35 years. I went this route to pursue a Ph.D. in psychology to become a psychologist. With my undergraduate stats that I have right now, I am not exactly sure if I would get into a program (I have good stats, 3.75, UNT, no publications or research experience). So, I wanted to take the more productive and logical route of getting into a master's program to help strengthen my attractiveness to be competitive for Ph.D. programs. This program does not offer funding, but it is one of the best experimental psychology master's programs in the state of Texas. The faculty, the course work, research opportunity and affiliations UT-Dallas has makes the debt seem worth it.

Dropping out of the program is something I wouldn't want to do. It would mean I would either need to select a new career path, or find some means of having someone else pay for this (I am all ears for options). I envy those who don't have to pay a dime for college tuition or fees, I didn't have that luxury, but I sure as hell wanted to become an educated person with a college degree. I hear the words "return on investment" as the sole or primary unit of measurement, and I would say there is so much more to having a financial/ monetary return of investment to rationalize getting an education.

I plan on working my ass off in this master's program, apply to Ph.D. programs afterwards and do what I can. I will either have the money to pay my loans, or I won't.
 
I plan on working my ass off in this master's program, apply to Ph.D. programs afterwards and do what I can. I will either have the money to pay my loans, or I won't.

That's kind of like saying "I will have a roof over my head or I won't", "I'll be able to enjoy a middle class life or I'll be a slave to Sallie Mae"... I mean, you do have some power over this. It isn't something that's just going to happen to you.
 
Yeah, and the idea of research experience being prohibitive is not really clear IMO. I mean, I worked 30 hours a week and went to school FT in UG, but still managed to volunteer in a lab. Some labs are open to you doing different kinds of work. I kept volunteering after I graduated and worked as well. Just gotta do what it takes. Better than going for something that is easier too get into but costs 200k.
 
That's kind of like saying "I will have a roof over my head or I won't", "I'll be able to enjoy a middle class life or I'll be a slave to Sallie Mae"... I mean, you do have some power over this. It isn't something that's just going to happen to you.

good points. That line of thinking is what leads many people to default on loans and more likely to stay in poverty. Would be better off sticking to the college degree over an MA with lot's of debt.
 
Certainly a lot of anecdotal "I did it why couldn't she" stories. You'd think a group of psychologists would know better than to judge someone based on their own situations. She's freely admitting she effed up. Does talking about how you don't have as much debt as her make you feel superior?
 
My understanding is that she finished internship and graduated in 2012 so she is not licensed yet and this is her first job out of school. I agree that the salary is very low, but I believe she said it's more like 50K. Isn't that in line with starting salaries for assistant professor positions at a very small 4 year public college? I have never heard of her school before and she is in the criminal justice department at The College at Brockport in upstate NY.

I am at a "nearly" R1 level university in the south, and I believe the CJ TT professors begin at ~$55K. Psychology TT professors begin at ~$65K.
 
Certainly a lot of anecdotal "I did it why couldn't she" stories. You'd think a group of psychologists would know better than to judge someone based on their own situations. She's freely admitting she effed up. Does talking about how you don't have as much debt as her make you feel superior?

I was responding to the derekream JS exchange. Basically, saying you don't have time to get research experience is what irked me, coming from sounded like a similar financial background. Of course I am going to encourage people to avoid programs that don't require research experience. I don't think those programs should exist.
 
I was responding to the derekream JS exchange. Basically, saying you don't have time to get research experience is what irked me, coming from sounded like a similar financial background. Of course I am going to encourage people to avoid programs that don't require research experience. I don't think those programs should exist.

I'm not pointing out anyone in particular. They know who they are. Im talking about those who specifically say "I worked really hard and dont have debt, she shouldve too." You know you're not part of that group. And I agree those programs are predatory. In fact, I'm confused how someone who was in the marines could have student loan debt when they have the GIBill. In the meantime, I just don't understand how a group that knows so much about judgment, personal situations and other social factors can be so harsh on someone who clearly knows what they did wrong and is trying to educate others who follow in their footsteps. </soapbox>
 
She doesn't seem to be aware of other options. She advises people not to go into the field because she seems to be believe it is not possible to do it in any way differently than what she did. She places all of the fault externally, on the student loan programs, on the school, just kind of society in general rather than taking responsibility for irresponsible financial behavior. The gi bill only covers a few years, max. And you can take out loans in addition. Her situation is what I think is one of the bigger problems in psychology. Because we are attracting people who aren't researching the field because it is too easy to take the route she did to get into a program AND we are attracting people with no financial sense. Why do we want that? It's not about compassion. What kind of field do we want? She is right, the current situation is predatory and these programs gather their prey carefully. But, she also has responsibility for buying into it, kind of like falling for a Nigerian scam. It's not reasonable to say everyone can get through school without debt. But, I think it is reasonable to say no one should get through a doctorate in clinical psych with 200K+ of school related debt. This isn't about feeling superior. Do we want our field to be modal 100k+ debt just for graduate school with average income at 60k? That is not very appealing, more like appalling. But, now more than 50 percent of our grads come from programs like this woman's. Because of this, we have people advocating that we lower standards (licensure without internship/postdoc, ignore APA standards). People call it elitism to advocate that we maintain a minimum set of standards. Is lowering them going to help us? In my opinion no. We are our lowest common denominator. As a field, if we lower standards, that is who we will attract (this woman). Why should we expect high pay? Why should we expect respect from other fields? Why should we expect to be trusted and treated as experts if we populate our field with people who are stone cold average academically and don't research the field? But yes, by all means, blame it on a motivation to feel superior. Accept everyone. Doctorates for all. Let's get a government bailout (as this woman implies she deserves). Lets fund any program that wants to call itself a doctoral program with taxpayer money. We can graduate 20,000 psychologists a year and pay them all 200,000 dollars a year as they deserve. Detroit logic. Oops, they ran out of other people's money.

I agree with most of what you said here. Until towards the end, when you had to go and get all partisan. You offer several lines of politically charged taunting (how is this going to help people understand your point of view?) before trotting out a senseless analogy (Detroit's situation is far more complicated than the very simple view of "ran out of other people's money") the political undertones are so off putting you harm the rest of your posts message.
 
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