Clinical psychologist with over 200k in debt

[partycorn]

While there is some very valuable information for future students to take away from this woman's experience and those in better circumstances, what practical advice would you give this professor or other students coming out of unfunded programs - minus "shoulda-coulda-woulda" stuff because hindsight isn't helpful in circumstances such as these.

What's done is done. How would those who have done their research handle this situation?

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[CheetahGirl]

The woman in the video presents several fallacies (i.e. you are never "forced to lie," the risks of having a family in your 30s, getting a doctorate in psychology is too cost prohibitive - uh, not in all cases, etc.). She's just ridiculous and creepy. What a waste of my 13 minutes.

While there is some very valuable information for future students to take away from this woman's experience and those in better circumstances, what practical advice would you give this professor or other students coming out of unfunded programs - minus "shoulda-coulda-woulda" stuff because hindsight isn't helpful in circumstances such as these.

What's done is done. How would those who have done their research handle this situation?

- Live frugally - - buy old, cheap cars, no cable/sattellite TV, don't pay too much in housing expenses
- move to a cheap cost of living area
- make sure your job adheres to the public loan forgiveness program as it currently stands (payment must meet criteria for minimum level, job must meet criteria specified), this could be a get out of jail card in 10 years
- Marry wisely (avoid someone with large debt, hopefully, they can also generate a nice income. If you do marry or share expenses with someone, communicate about the debt. If you can, divert as much of your income as possible to paying down your debt, the faster you pay it off, the lower the payments get. Let's say you net 40,000 and your SO nets 40,000. If you can live on 40,000, you could knock out 40K in a year. That's massive. Early, you might consider clearing as many expenses as possible (no kids, no new house, no trips, eat in, etc. . .). Pay off as much as possible while you don't have other obligations.
- Diversify your job experience - work multiple jobs, simultaneously (e.g., if you are a professor like this woman, do something else too like a private practice, or consultations on disability evals, or whatever).
- do not put your loans in forbearance ever. . .. at the very least, pay your interest, don't let new principle accumulate, amongst lots of stupidity, this was one of the more glaringly wrong things this person did
- make max contribution to IRA (probably Roth, unless your income is high. . . check the rules) monthly (~415 a month right now, I think)
- Lock in a low fixed interest rate, pay off high interest rate loans first, see about staggering your payments, (twice a month), if you can game the interest accrual a bit

This is great advice, Jon Snow.

I want to reiterate marrying wisely and focusing on debt as much as you can before starting a family. The U.S. Dept of Agriculture generates a report each year called the expenditures on children by families. The average cost of raising one child in dual-income family is approximately $14,000 USD. Having a bunch of bambinos of my own...it can be more or less, depending on where you live, if you need caregivers, private schools, summer camps, music lessons, sports equipment, etc.

(At least the creepy woman in the video waited to have kids...but she did say she had cats & dogs - more added expense.)

Not to put a damper on anyone's future, but it's just smart to be pragmatic.

 

[Sanman]

I think Jon Snow covered it pretty well. The problem is that the people who will take that advice likely would not take on debt to begin with and those that do are unlikely to heed such advice because it will not allow them to live the lifestyle to which they are accustomed. I have a colleague right now that is living paycheck to paycheck making 80k per year and I have managed to save 4k and pay off all my credit card debt making approximately half that as a post-doc. The difference is that I have a 10 year old car, few luxury items, and live very frugally. I also attended a fully funded program. She has a new car and tons of debt from argosy or Alliant. Her and her classmates all thought they would be buying BMWs and nice purses by now. She is supporting a blue collar SO that can't help much with bills. My SO is a professional with a six figure salary. She is a very nice person, but we have made different life decisions. Mine have allowed me a much more comfortable existence at least financially.

The issue here is a core values. I applied across the country to undesirable locales to gain acceptances to funded programs. Many people going to unfunded programs refuse to ever leave NY or CA. They refuse to be uncomfortable for the sake of financial security and deal with financial realities. Really, this is more about personal finance views than graduate school.

 

[CheetahGirl]

Many people going to unfunded programs refuse to ever leave NY or CA. They refuse to be uncomfortable for the sake of financial security and deal with financial realities. Really, this is more about personal finance views than graduate school.

Yes, sophomoric personal finance views.

 

[Sanman]

I think it's both. I think programs like Argosy, Alliant, and pretty much any professional school that uses loans as the main driver of their existence, survive on the heals of people who make poor financial decisions. In out field, the proliferation of graduate programs of that nature necessarily means we are recruiting and graduating a higher ratio of people who make questionable financial decisions. Lost of other bad things correlate with that tendency.

Agreed and the problem extends to undergraduate education, allied health programs, law schools and goes beyond for-profit institutions. In the last ten years, plenty of brick and mortar universities added graduate and law programs simply to bolster a budget. This transcends our field and goes to the fact that the higher education system is broken and a noble idea is being taken advantage of by those that learned to game the system. That is why I disagreed that the internship imbalance was a completely bad thing. It is the only bottleneck that stopped us from facing the fate of lawyers/law schools currently. I can agree it is a problem of higher education reform as well as personal finance. However, even when people are warned on here, we see how many ignore those protestations and do as they do as they please. The question becomes whether we, as a society, allow people to be taken advantage of financially and see it as their freedom to be ignorant or limit positions and require funding, thus removing their chance to make it their career. Either way, I really don't feel that badly for people that do not do their homework and got the short end of the stick.

 

[CheetahGirl]

I feel badly for them because I think many come from backgrounds where they simply don't have good financial sense. However, I don't want them in my field through that trajectory. I feel like it lowers the quality of our field in terms of people in it and contributes to a decrease in the average quality of life of people that become clinical psychologists by saddling the average one with a lot of debt, and it also creates pressures that wouldn't otherwise be there that affect training and career decisions in ways that shouldn't happen.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Say no more.

 

[Sanman]

I feel badly for them because I think many come from backgrounds where they simply don't have good financial sense. However, I don't want them in my field through that trajectory. I feel like it lowers the quality of our field in terms of people in it and contributes to a decrease in the average quality of life of people that become clinical psychologists by saddling the average one with a lot of debt, and it also creates pressures that wouldn't otherwise be there that affect training and career decisions in ways that shouldn't happen.

I absolutely agree and I do think that many who chose this path do so because they do not have someone giving them the financial sense that I was lucky enough to gain at an early age. Yet, any time I have attempted to aid friends and colleagues about this, they get angry and defensive. More than a few have come to me later with regrets. I personally think giving someone hope and a giant handicap is mean, but I also believe in the freedom to make your own mistakes (especially if you get pissed at me for trying to help).

 

[priorities2]

Agreed and the problem extends to undergraduate education, allied health programs, law schools and goes beyond for-profit institutions. In the last ten years, plenty of brick and mortar universities added graduate and law programs simply to bolster a budget. This transcends our field and goes to the fact that the higher education system is broken and a noble idea is being taken advantage of by those that learned to game the system. That is why I disagreed that the internship imbalance was a completely bad thing. It is the only bottleneck that stopped us from facing the fate of lawyers/law schools currently. I can agree it is a problem of higher education reform as well as personal finance. However, even when people are warned on here, we see how many ignore those protestations and do as they do as they please. The question becomes whether we, as a society, allow people to be taken advantage of financially and see it as their freedom to be ignorant or limit positions and require funding, thus removing their chance to make it their career. Either way, I really don't feel that badly for people that do not do their homework and got the short end of the stick.

It sounds like the internship crisis in psychology is similar to the preceptor shortage for NP schools. There are a lot of online, distance NP programs that don't provide the required preceptor and clinicals for students - without this, a person can't graduate. So, if an NP student can't find a preceptor on their own, they have to wait another year or just give up and not graduate. I do think it's kind of a good thing as it prevents an explosion in the number of NPs. And, it's all the better for people who go to high quality enough schools that do provide clinical placement.

 

[cara susanna]

Yes, the bottleneck is better placed at internship than at post-docs, jobs, etc. But being at internship is still awful. It'd be best if it was at admission into a program because if you don't get into a program, you have other choices. But if you don't match, you're kind of stuck.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Yes, the bottleneck is better placed at internship than at post-docs, jobs, etc. But being at internship is still awful. It'd be best if it was at admission into a program because if you don't get into a program, you have other choices. But if you don't match, you're kind of stuck.

I completely agree. I'd honestly rather have the bottleneck at internship than not at all, but ideally it'd occur on the front end rather than at the back end (which has been said numerous times before). Unfortunately, we as a field have done a horrible job of ensuring that this is the case, so now we're having to play catch-up for (as another poster put it) those in APA leadership roles putting off acknowledging this problem and having this problem for a good 10 years.

 

[priorities2]

Yeah, I guess for NP programs you can place your own personal bottleneck at the front end by insisting on attending a school that provides clinical placement. It's too bad that the quality psych schools can't somehow ensure internships for their students.

But isn't it kind of the same thing for psychology... could you insist on going to a school with a 90%+ match rate?

 

[thewesternsky]

But isn't it kind of the same thing for psychology... could you insist on going to a school with a 90%+ match rate?

You can, and we try to encourage undergraduate students who post here to do that (or at least we recommend they restrict their applications to schools with match rates above about 75 or 80%). Unfortunately, good personal decisions by a handful of applicants are not going to improve the situation for the field as a whole.

 

[cara susanna]

I've noticed that a lot of people who apply to schools with poor match rates tend to think "Well, I'll be the exception." Or that's how it seems to me, anyway.

 

[PHD12]

There is probably a subset that is "doctoral psych or bust." as we've seen in this thread (I may or may not have a roof over my head). I bet some prospective students feel trapped with poor job prospects in general (psychology undergrad) and not much idea about what to do. Professional psych schools are really rather easy to get into and that makes it a path of least resistance option.

Agreed. There is definitely a trend of desperation. I've noticed that many of the applicants to professional schools who post on this forum seem to be in very stressful life circumstances, such as serious health problems, $$ issues, dropped out of 4th tier law school, or took out 50-100K in loans to attend an undergrad program with no good job prospects.

 

[Sanman]

Agreed. There is definitely a trend of desperation. I've noticed that many of the applicants to professional schools who post on this forum seem to be in very stressful life circumstances, such as serious health problems, $$ issues, dropped out of 4th tier law school, or took out 50-100K in loans to attend an undergrad program with no good job prospects.

As I have mentioned before, I think this has to do with the way the system is setup and our differences from the typically British system many other countries tend to use. Here, almost anyone can attend college (whether they should is another question) and if you struggle, you are left on your own rather than being given guidance. The pressure is to 'make something of yourself' and no one at that age wants to be in the bottom or the middle, so they will not accept their own limitations. Instead, they will continue to struggle and the bottom tier of schools in any number of professions will be happy to scoop them up and give them a degree. Then, they end up poor or out of work professionals and people do not understand how this can happen. The answer is simple, you can be anything you want in this country, we just do not guarantee any level of success or comfort.

I do question whether the academic differences mentioned in another thread contribute to the career planning differences seen and the struggles all along the way. I have a chronic medical condition that makes it difficult to deal with prolonged levels of high stress. It did affect me in some ways, but I still did well enough to attend a fully funded clinically oriented program, planned areas of specialty that pay well clinically and gained experience in 4 of them. Finishing up my post-doc now, I have yet to field a job offer of less than 70k for no more than a 40-50hr work week. The job I will likely take is closer to 80k. However, I did my research and planned my career accordingly.

 

[PsychBoxe]

Maybe. I think the answer is there is some diversity here. But, common reasons I think are:

- Want to be a clinician, not a researcher (this is a misconception but I think common)

- Do not have the background to get into a funded program

- Want to go to graduate school NOW

- Went to undergrad in psychology, clinical psychology is the most well known applied psychology discipline. Undergrad psych doesn't directly lead to any particular job and graduate school in clinical psychology is the most obvious next step to continue in the field.

I think this is a great summary of what I occasionally observe at visiting days for my program. There are often several potential applicants that "just want to do therapy" and are unprepared to support their rationale for not pursuing a masters degree (e.g. LICSW/MFT/LCMHC). I have had several difficult conversations with potential applicants where I felt the need to offer a reality check as to what it requires to apply, become accepted to, and do well in a doctoral program.

Do others experience potential applicants as being unaware of what a doctoral degree in psychology entails?

 

[derekream]

-

 

[LauraH8214]

Hello, I have posted before on this issue but as the first day of school gets closer, the issue is still nagging me. I was accepted into a clinical psychology program that is about 40k for the first 3 years and 25k the fourth year. Most people usually only get about 10k off tuition each year. My husband will be working and making a decent living. We could likely make some payments on the loans but regardless I am guessing we would owe about 80k to 100k in debt when I am done. The school is in a state with one of the highest costs of living in the USA so I am guessing much of his income would go to living even with him making 70k. The school is great and it was my dream to become a psychologist but the money bothers me DAILY. I know we should follow our dreams and all but I am wondering if I will feel this way in 10 years when I spent all that time in school and now have such a high amount of debt over my head. I see a lot of people on here post about debt that high being too much when you are single but what if I am married? Like say my husband makes about 70k a year when I graduate and I am making 60-70k? Would we be okay? I love psychology but I want a family and family vacations. I do not need to be rich but I do want to retire one day and be happy. Any advice?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Hello, I have posted before on this issue but as the first day of school gets closer, the issue is still nagging me. I was accepted into a clinical psychology program that is about 40k for the first 3 years and 25k the fourth year. Most people usually only get about 10k off tuition each year. My husband will be working and making a decent living. We could likely make some payments on the loans but regardless I am guessing we would owe about 80k to 100k in debt when I am done.

$145k in tuition (not counting tuition hikes, school fees, etc) is a lot of money because of compound interest. Even if you pay down the interest and leave with just the principle..that is still a lot. Unless you have guaranteed funding, you really shouldn't count on it every year.

The school is in a state with one of the highest costs of living in the USA so I am guessing much of his income would go to living even with him making 70k. The school is great and it was my dream to become a psychologist but the money bothers me DAILY. I know we should follow our dreams and all but I am wondering if I will feel this way in 10 years when I spent all that time in school and now have such a high amount of debt over my head.

…on top of the ~$150k in tuition, yikes. $70k in a place like NYC/LA/SF is not a lot of money. Here is an article talking about LA…the gist is a person needs to make $33/hr (~$69k/yr) to afford to have a 1BR apt in LA. That's the bare minimum.

If you have concerns on a daily basis, that should tell you something.

I see a lot of people on here post about debt that high being too much when you are single but what if I am married? Like say my husband makes about 70k a year when I graduate and I am making 60-70k? Would we be okay? I love psychology but I want a family and family vacations. I do not need to be rich but I do want to retire one day and be happy. Any advice?

Talk to a financial advisor. Most likely they will say NO. Can people do it…maybe. Should they…probably not.

 

[WisNeuro]

IMO, any clinical psychology program that charges anywhere near 6 figures in tuition is not worth it. Not even close. Those programs also tend to have the worst match and EPPP pass rates.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Most all of us end up having over $100,000 and closer to $200,000 in student loans. In my circumstance I took out the maximum amount allowed so I have more student loans to pay back than the average. I am now two-years out since finishing my program and I am fully licensed. My loans are in forebearance and I was just approved for NHSC loan repayment of $50,000 for a two-year commitment that may be extended every two-years until my loans are paid off.

I am doing part-time private practice and full-time employment at an approved NHSC site with potential annual income over $150,000 per year. I am doing DDA evals one-day per week with 5-8 evals per day and can make between $800 to $1200 per week doing these evals.

My two-cents opinion is to not let cost of program or amount of student loans interfere with your goals. There will continue to be a shortage of psychologist with the retirement of the Baby Boomer generation and your lifetime income will be expanded by 20-40x by having the doctoral degree over the MS licensure degree.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

If by "most of us" you mean Psy.D. students, then this might be accurate. However, it is far from the truth of a modal Ph.D. student. Can you please start fact checking yourself? You continue to make assertions in the complete absence of any supporting evidence.

Uh... I know many PhD students and Psychologist. My predoc supervisors were all PhD and were in the NHSC program for three to five years to pay back their over $100,000 in student loans. Heck one of my supervisor completed three-years toward his MD before switching to a PhD program in Clinical Psychology. I have met only one psychologist (PsyD or PhD) in the last ten-years who has not had to pay back student loans.

Even with out-of-state tuition waiver and teaching assistantship student loans are needed for living expenses and internship. Some take out $30,000 to $50,000 alone during internship.

Do you know any psychologist who graduated scot free without any student loans to pay back? I seriously doubt it unless their parents or spouse was wealthy. I know of one women whose husband was CEO of his own Multi National Company with offices in Europe, Australia, and the USA who paid cash for tuition and did not need student loans. They lived in a two million plus home in North Texas and he had his own private jet. Now this is the exception to the rule. She finished her degree and now has a private practice in San Francisco, California while her husband is jetting between countries and getting home about twice a month.

 

[LauraH8214]

Uh... I know many PhD students and Psychologist. My predoc supervisors were all PhD and were in the NHSC program for three to five years to pay back their over $100,000 in student loans. Heck one of my supervisor complete three year toward his MD before switching to a PhD program in Clinical Psychology. I have not met one psychologist (PsyD or PhD) in the last ten-years who has not had to pay back student loans.

Thanks for the advice and I am certainly not doubting you. However, I must say I have asked so many people about my problem and you are the first to say it would be okay. Most look very scared for me and tell me that even if it is a great program (which I feel it is) I will not come out in a good position. My mentor encourages me to go and swears her classmates are all okay. However, when I do the math I am confused as to how that can be. The thing is, I want to move back home closer to my family when I am done and I am guessing to get one of those government deals you need to be geographically flexible?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Most all of us end up having over $100,000 and closer to $200,000 in student loans.

There are data available about this….17% of Psy.Ds have debt over $200k.

Here are data from 2011 about average debt load of Ph.D. and Psy.D. students.

Please consider that if you are re-locating/living in one of the most expensive cities in the country, it will most likely negatively impact your overall debt load.

 

[WisNeuro]

Uh... I know many PhD students and Psychologist. My predoc supervisors were all PhD and were in the NHSC program for three to five years to pay back their over $100,000 in student loans. Heck one of my supervisor completed three-years toward his MD before switching to a PhD program in Clinical Psychology. I have met only one psychologist (PsyD or PhD) in the last ten-years who has not had to pay back student loans.

Seriously, please stop blatantly lying about these things. This data is available and directly conflicts what you are saying. Most PhD's have well under 100k in graduate debt.

 

[LauraH8214]

Thanks guys

 

[WisNeuro]

Thanks guys and I think regardless of what the data shows it is more about would it be possible to take out 100k and still live life comfortably. My program happens to be a private phD but how is it that so many psyds take out all that debt and still live?

Depends on what comfortable means to you and whether or not you can get some loan reimbursement options. It usually just means giving up a lot in the short and intermediate term to make that loan payment (e.g., that loan payment could be a car payment+, or a good down payment on a house, etc).

 

[erg923]

Thanks for the advice and I am certainly not doubting you. However, I must say I have asked so many people about my problem and you are the first to say it would be okay. Most look very scared for me and tell me that even if it is a great program (which I feel it is) I will not come out in a good position. My mentor encourages me to go and swears her classmates are all okay. However, when I do the math I am confused as to how that can be. The thing is, I want to move back home closer to my family when I am done and I am guessing to get one of those government deals you need to be geographically flexible?

Lauren, OneNeuroDoctor is: 1. likely not a psychologist. 2. possibly a recruiter for a school similar to yours. 3. was previously banned from this board for his deceptive and ill informed posting.

 

[erg923]

Thanks for the advice and I am certainly not doubting you. However, I must say I have asked so many people about my problem and you are the first to say it would be okay. Most look very scared for me and tell me that even if it is a great program (which I feel it is) I will not come out in a good position. My mentor encourages me to go and swears her classmates are all okay. However, when I do the math I am confused as to how that can be. The thing is, I want to move back home closer to my family when I am done and I am guessing to get one of those government deals you need to be geographically flexible?

While I would pretty staunchly assert that doing this is irrational and shows a immaturity about finances, its a personal decision. It will be important to think about the following.

1. Do you want to own a home? Student debt WILL count in your debt to income ratio when you apply for a mortgage.

2. What other debt do you have, or will you likely have. Car loans? credit cards?

3. Kids? How many? Private schools?

4. Do you want to be one of those people that is dependent, quite literally, and the government for your financial viability/security of the rest of your life? Or would you prefer to have financial independence?

 

[Lurking Oracle]

To address the assertion from an earlier poster that no one in clinical psychology gets out of grad school without student loan debt... WRONG. I did, as did my classmates, and many classes thereafter. Fully funded PhD programs with teaching/research assistantships, which is what I attended, work that way. Heck, even my classmate who was married to a surgeon still had full tuition remission and a stipend from being a TA! Granted, with the proliferation of FSPS programs the proportion of debtors to debt-free will likely shift, but that does not change the reality that it is still possible to become a clinical psychologist without taking on massive debt or having family wealth.

 

[WisNeuro]

To address the assertion from an earlier poster that no one in clinical psychology gets out of grad school without student loan debt... WRONG. I did, as did my classmates, and many classes thereafter. Fully funded PhD programs with teaching/research assistantships, which is what I attended, work that way. Heck, even my classmate who was married to a surgeon still had full tuition remission and a stipend from being a TA! Granted, with the proliferation of FSPS programs the proportion of debtors to debt-free will likely shift, but that does not change the reality that it is still possible to become a clinical psychologist without taking on massive debt or having family wealth.

Likewise, the most grad level debt I knew about from my program was 20k. And this was because the student took a good amount out to live in very nice apartments during grad school. I carried 0 debt from grad school, and actually side jobs allowed me to contribute to IRA accounts through grad school. Taking out loans is not a necessity. Taking out 6 figure loans is absurdity. Big changes coming to the healthcare world in the next two decades. I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of those loans if our reimbursement rates keep dropping.

 

[Lurking Oracle]

While I would pretty staunchly assert that doing this is irrational and shows a immaturity about finances, its a personal decision. It will be important to think about the following.

1. Do you want to own a home? Student debt WILL count in your debt to income ratio when you apply for a mortgage.

2. What other debt do you have, or will you likely have. Car loans? credit cards?

3. Kids? How many? Private schools?

4. Do you want to be one of those people that is dependent, quite literally, and the government for your financial viability/security of the rest of your life? Or would you prefer to have financial independence?

Erg is spot on here. By having no debt from grad school (or undergrad; I was fortunate to have an academic scholarship), I was able to become a homeowner at 28 (twenty eight) and live nicely even on what an early career psychologist earned. There are too many other things in the world to worry about. Don't let absurd debt - and its consequences - be one of them.

 

[Goobernut]

So to tell you my story. I was a non-traditional student who had a child and husband. I was able to graduate undergrad with only $2k in debt. For many reasons, I decided to go to a master's program instead of a PhD. Harder to get your masters paid for, so I had to review the debt load very seriously. My hubs was military at the time, so we weren't broke, but made a decent living. So I worked my butt off for stipends scholarships etc, got half my program paid for. This has allowed me to take my time choosing jobs and is going to allow us to get a great house and afford private school if necessary. If I'd gone to a non-funded PsyD program, or non-funded PsyD program, and had the $150k in debt, none of those things would be possible. In a state with low cost of living! My master's classmates have $150k in debt from undergrad and grad, and they are having to specifically look for jobs with loan payback because they finally realized those payments are killing them, even banking on the 10 year public service plans. They end up taking demotions to work in public service for loan repayment benefits.

So again anecdotes here, but my undergrad mentor who was a PsyD (from FIT) said "don't go into that much debt, it's a struggle, and I got 1/2 of mine paid for because I got a work-study job." She went on to say that those programs are "doable" but that it was hard and affected her career choices. We had another PsyD come in and sub for a class from that same university and literally just talked to us for 1/2 the class about how difficult it was to live with that kind of debt.

I personally think that the debt load is "doable" through struggling and sacrifices. But why? Over and over again I hear more experienced people in the field counseling something I've nick-named "professional patience" and is probably really just delayed gratification. If you can do it for free a different way, but it will take you longer to do it that way -- have patience and do it the free way.

 

[LauraH8214]

So to tell you my story. I was a non-traditional student who had a child and husband. I was able to graduate undergrad with only $2k in debt. For many reasons, I decided to go to a master's program instead of a PhD. Harder to get your masters paid for, so I had to review the debt load very seriously. My hubs was military at the time, so we weren't broke, but made a decent living. So I worked my butt off for stipends scholarships etc, got half my program paid for. This has allowed me to take my time choosing jobs and is going to allow us to get a great house and afford private school if necessary. If I'd gone to a non-funded PsyD program, or non-funded PsyD program, and had the $150k in debt, none of those things would be possible. In a state with low cost of living! My master's classmates have $150k in debt from undergrad and grad, and they are having to specifically look for jobs with loan payback because they finally realized those payments are killing them, even banking on the 10 year public service plans. They end up taking demotions to work in public service for loan repayment benefits.

So again anecdotes here, but my undergrad mentor who was a PsyD (from FIT) said "don't go into that much debt, it's a struggle, and I got 1/2 of mine paid for because I got a work-study job." She went on to say that those programs are "doable" but that it was hard and affected her career choices. We had another PsyD come in and sub for a class from that same university and literally just talked to us for 1/2 the class about how difficult it was to live with that kind of debt.

I personally think that the debt load is "doable" through struggling and sacrifices. But why? Over and over again I hear more experienced people in the field counseling something I've nick-named "professional patience" and is probably really just delayed gratification. If you can do it for free a different way, but it will take you longer to do it that way -- have patience and do it the free way.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

My advice is that if you're already having concerns about it, those concerns aren't going to get any smaller while you're in school, so you should probably listen to them.

Is it possible to live with $200k in debt on a psychologist's typical salary with the existing repayment programs? Sure, but realize that even with something like IBR (which includes spousal income in its calculation), you're likely to be pay anywhere from $600-1000/month on those loans. When making, say, $80k/year, this won't mean you can't afford a place to live (depending on geographic region), or to put food on the table. But just think what else that money could buy.

 

[Lurking Oracle]

My advice is that if you're already having concerns about it, those concerns aren't going to get any smaller while you're in school, so you should probably listen to them.

Is it possible to live with $200k in debt on a psychologist's typical salary with the existing repayment programs? Sure, but realize that even with something like IBR (which includes spousal income in its calculation), you're likely to be pay anywhere from $600-1000/month on those loans. When making, say, $80k/year, this won't mean you can't afford a place to live (depending on geographic region), or to put food on the table. But just think what else that money could buy.

Moreover, think about what putting away that $1,000 each month for 15+ years would yield (factoring in compound interest, of course). Maybe I'm just strange, but I would rather have $300K+ in savings kicking around than to have shelled out megabucks for a degree that yields (hopefully, eventually, often after many EPPP attempts) the same license and income that many others were able to earn without going into mega-deep hock for it.

 

[WisNeuro]

Just to add on, because I don't have student loan bills, I can afford to max out my 401k at 17.5k a year. For one thing, it lowers my taxable income, and that money will compound mightily over the next 30+ years until retirement. As other have intimated, I would crunch the numbers, look at amortization tables, and consider how you will need to be incredibly geographically flexible to make this work.

 

[PsychPhDone]

I agree with the others about speaking with a financial planner, and I'll add taking a long, hard look at your career and general life goals. I can't offer much else, as I only applied to fully funded phd programs (and graduated with zero debt). I hope you can find a way to achieve your goals, even if it's in a different way.

 

[LauraH8214]

Just to add on, because I don't have student loan bills, I can afford to max out my 401k at 17.5k a year. For one thing, it lowers my taxable income, and that money will compound mightily over the next 30+ years until retirement. As other have intimated, I would crunch the numbers, look at amortization tables, and consider how you will need to be incredibly geographically flexible to make this work.

Thanks

 

[WisNeuro]

Question. My mentor told me that several of her friends who had no help from their parents paid for this 40k a year program and lived in NY and that they are doing fine finically. I am so confused because I have spoken with so many people that say we would not be "fine". We would get by yes but things would be tight until those loans were paid off. To me thats a lot of time to spend in school struggling and living in a crappy apartment to get out and just be getting by. Am I right?

Depends on your level of comfort with "just getting by." I lived in cities that were very affordable, and 40k a year would have been a no go even in those cities. Everyone's risk for debt is different. I personally, am debt avoidant, and treated my search as such. Despite that, I would never recommend anything close to 6 figures of debt knowing average salaries for psychologists, and a very real possibility that those salaries stagnate or even decrease in future years.

 

[LauraH8214]

Depends on your level of comfort with "just getting by." I lived in cities that were very affordable, and 40k a year would have been a no go even in those cities. Everyone's risk for debt is different. I personally, am debt avoidant, and treated my search as such. Despite that, I would never recommend anything close to 6 figures of debt knowing average salaries for psychologists, and a very real possibility that those salaries stagnate or even decrease in future years.

 

[WisNeuro]

I mean I would like a car but it does not need to be new. Maybe a mid size house (3 bedrooms). I would also like to have a kid when I am finished around age 30. I would like to be able to take this kid on a vacation in the summer and plan for the future (i.e. save money each month for kids college and retirement). I just do not know if this kind of debt fits with me as a person considering those are my goals.

That's where a good running of the numbers comes in. Look at how much debt you will accrue (I recommend estimating up) and what those payments will look like, what your living costs will be in a desired location, and what your realistic salaries will be. Far too few people do this analysis, and are stunned when they are struggling to pay the monthly loan bill amid other life expenses. It's doable for some, but just spend some time on the front end looking at those numbers so that you have a realistic expectation for what life will look like when you are finally working.

 

[erg923]

Question. My mentor told me that several of her friends who had no help from their parents paid for this 40k a year program and lived in NY and that they are doing fine finically. I am so confused because I have spoken with so many people that say we would not be "fine". We would get by yes but things would be tight until those loans were paid off. To me thats a lot of time to spend in school struggling and living in a crappy apartment to get out and just be getting by. Am I right?

Why rely on others? Have you run the numbers yourself?

Estimate salary and monthly income (after taxes) based on market numbers for your area. Calculate monthly loan repayment. Subtract "3 bedroom" mortgage and 2 car payments, insurance (car and health), retirement contribution, food, gas/transportation. Whats left? Does what's left meet your definition of "fine?"

 

[futureapppsy2]

Lauren, OneNeuroDoctor is: 1. likely not a psychologist. 2. possibly a recruiter for a school similar to yours. 3. was previously banned from this board for his deceptive and ill informed posting.

Mod note: On the last point, this user is not connected to any previously banned user. The mod staff (@AcronymAllergy and I and others) have looked into this due to concerns reported by members. Making a new account after banning is against SDN policy, so any users who are found to have done this are heavily penalized. Please report any users or content that you have concerns about via the official report system. While we cannot publicly discuss moderator decisions, we really do look into every report. Also, please keep in mind that you can ignore posts from specific users by using the "ignore" function (the one exception is that you can't ignore posts from moderators or administrators).

 

[Goobernut]

I mean I would like a car but it does not need to be new. Maybe a mid size house (3 bedrooms). I would also like to have a kid when I am finished around age 30. I would like to be able to take this kid on a vacation in the summer and plan for the future (i.e. save money each month for kids college and retirement). I just do not know if this kind of debt fits with me as a person considering those are my goals.

If the thought of doing all that by hand is daunting, there are salary "need" estimators (I think payscale.org) and student loan repayment estimators all over the web. I highly encourage you to run the numbers yourself and see what you will be comfortable with.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

You would likely be okay in that you would not starve. But, your standard of living would be necessarily affected by that level of debt. Just for a mentality check (not advocating it, just a different thought process in terms money),

Agreed. This simply comes down to standard of living. This is more important to some than to others. For some, doing the work is the standard, and for others it's living comfortably while doing meaningful work. I rarely see this acknowledged in the many discussions about this topic. The assumption that it is not rational ignores other values driving these decisions. Are there those who didn't think through the ramifications of taking on such debt, but there are those who have and are leading enjoyable lives.

 

[deleted343839]

Agreed. This simply comes down to standard of living. This is more important to some than to others. For some, doing the work is the standard, and for others it's living comfortably while doing meaningful work. I rarely see this acknowledged in the many discussions about this topic. The assumption that it is not rational ignores other values driving these decisions. Are there those who didn't think through the ramifications of taking on such debt, but there are those who have and are leading enjoyable lives.

Well said. I returned to graduate school married and somewhat used to a dual-earner middle-class income. Looking back, that "lifestyle adjustment" was responsible for a certain, regrettable portion of my debt. I also took on debt to compensate for a couple of (planned) interruptions in my spouse's employment for continuing education and child care, respectively. I'm still paying for it, but I only really regret about half of the debt I took on. We all make mistakes. I'm just thankful that I didn't make 200K worth of mistakes.

 

[randomguy87]

The Army Reserve pays 250,000 debt. I have little of either sympathy for those in debt or judgment for those who take it. If they wanted to get it paid that badly they could

 

[docjohng]

I wouldn't view this as an all or nothing proposition (as most things in life are rarely so black and white). Graduating from a PhD or PsyD program with some debt is perfectly fine for most people, and anything under $50k won't likely impact your lifestyle much.

But you must absolutely take responsibility for every financial decision you make, even as a young adult. To believe -- without bothering to learn about it or run the numbers for yourself -- that your income will support a large, medical-school-type 6-digit debt load may be irrational and not supported by your future job.

As a general rule, anything above $100k, and I think you're probably in the wrong profession. Psychologist salaries haven't suddenly become on par with being a family physician over the past decade.

 

[Lurking Oracle]

I wouldn't view this as an all or nothing proposition (as most things in life are rarely so black and white). Graduating from a PhD or PsyD program with some debt is perfectly fine for most people, and anything under $50k won't likely impact your lifestyle much.

But you must absolutely take responsibility for every financial decision you make, even as a young adult. To believe -- without bothering to learn about it or run the numbers for yourself -- that your income will support a large, medical-school-type 6-digit debt load may be irrational and not supported by your future job.

As a general rule, anything above $100k, and I think you're probably in the wrong profession. Psychologist salaries haven't suddenly become on par with being a family physician over the past decade.

Agreed. The basic rule of thumb (and yes, there are exceptions... and they are called exceptions because they are exceptionally uncommon) is that you should not take on more total student loan debt than you will REALISTICALLY make in your first year post-training. "Realistically" = based on published, large N, reputable data, not what one person or FSPS recruiter needs to have you believe, for whatever reason(s). So, even though the "poorest" of MD starting salaries (i.e., Family Practice and Pediatrics; ccording to the AAMC) are pegged at $160K, taking out $160K in student loans (which is modal for MDs/DOs) would be OK. To take out the same amount or more for a PsyD when one is facing a REALISTIC max starting salary in the $65,000 (or even less) to (maybe) very low 80,000-ish range just strains logic (unless you married well, or were already to-the-manor-born, or don't understand personal finance, or just don't care). Oh, and yes, sorry, but only PsyD programs appear to reach that price point. The PhD programs at the Ivies, Big 10, and state universities are virtually all fully or mostly funded to being with. (No, I am not a PsyD hater: I have hired and will continue to hire PsyDs... from the established, APA-accredited programs, of course. I just think that it is important to reinforce fiscal realities).