Clinical psychologist with over 200k in debt

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Not sure data wise but overall probability there are many more PhD trained psychologists than PsyD and I believe APPIC data probably has the ratio of PhD/PsyD. In most States there are more PhD psychologists than PsyD who are licensed.

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[NeuroTrope]

Not sure data wise but overall probability there are many more PhD trained psychologist than PsyD and I believe APPIC data probably has the ratio of PhD/PsyD. In most States there are more PhD psychologist than PsyD who are licensed.

I don't really have anything to contribute to this threat but I have to ask, WHY WHY WHY do you always refer to psychologists in the singular? It is distracting and it drives me up the wall. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!

 

[erg923]

l'll tell you how - from the peers who got in: they wooed the researcher they wanted to be a slave to. The only way to set yourself apart (from other stellar applicants of same caliber) is to court a researcher who is accepting students the incoming fall, for lack of better words. That prof will then vouch for you in the selection commitee. All things being equal, the only way to get "noticed" is to become noticeable. Although i had 7 publications at time of my masters, once in position to move on to the doc, I had no desire to kiss up (I can't find any other expression) and to someone for whom I'd give good lab hours for, even if I was interested in their reasearch or furthering their career. Im not saying this last point is common everywhere, but I do have a dozen horror stories I've heard.

I settled for a PsyD at a well rspected school and could not be happier, ..it lead to a nuero psych research at the va and the rest is history.

Perhaps the other "how" of stellar candidates getting in... is just sheer luck and maybe a 1600 on the gre

Ok. I fail to see what wrong with any of that, even if it were how it really worked....which its not.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

There were around 300 more PhD applicants last year to PsyD applicants for the match:

10
8.8%
5
4.4%
113
ALL PROGRAMS
Ph.D. / Ed.D.
1,934
86.3%
210
9.4%
97
4.3%
2,241
Psy.D.
1,635
81.5%
226
11.3%
145
7.2%
2,006
TOTALS
3,569
84.0%
436
10.3%
242
5.7%
4,247
NOTE: Students seeking Ed.D. degrees were included in the Ph.D. category in order to prevent individuals from being identified.

 

[Pragma]

Thanks for saying what I've been wanting to for awhile! (Re: plural form of psychologist)

 

[clinpsyc87]

That isn't how my program works.

Didn't you go to und? Maybe he's exaggerating but I'm in a PhD and yeah I would basically say you do have to be in contact with one particular professor to sponsor you for their research. Every place I interviewed was exactly like that. Again, he's blowing it out of proportion, but what he's approximating is not totally imaginary

 

[cara susanna]

Didn't you go to und? Maybe he's exaggerating but I'm in a PhD and yeah I would basically say you do have to be in contact with one particular professor to sponsor you for their research. Every place I interviewed was exactly like that. Again, he's blowing it out of proportion, but what he's approximating is not totally imaginary

Some PhD programs don't do admissions that way. Mine is one of them.

 

[clinpsyc87]

Some PhD programs don't do admissions that way. Mine is one of them.

I actually talked to a faculty member at und. Supposedly for all they say about the "cohort model" of the whole faculty ranking applicants, in real life that gets thrown out the window when a core faculty insists on having one particular student only despite the other faculty rankings. I was told there are students admitted because the whole committee loved them, but one can get accepted either way.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Didn't you go to und? Maybe he's exaggerating but I'm in a PhD and yeah I would basically say you do have to be in contact with one particular professor to sponsor you for their research. Every place I interviewed was exactly like that. Again, he's blowing it out of proportion, but what he's approximating is not totally imaginary

I don't know about UND (or if cara goes there), but I know lots of balanced programs that don't admit by POI. It's more common than you think. You still have to show some fit, of course, but admissions are done "wholesale," by program and not by POI.

Also, I think that a lot people in this thread have some really "off" assumptions about what PhD programs look like. I've honestly never felt like a "slave" to any faculty I've worked with, nor a "glorified research assistant." I've PI'd multiple projects during grad school. including papers with multiple faculty and collaborators from other places. Both my masters and PhD programs were very focused on making us independent investigators and good collaborators, not just RAs.

 

[cara susanna]

I actually talked to a faculty member at und. Supposedly for all they say about the "cohort model" of the whole faculty ranking applicants, in real life that gets thrown out the window when a core faculty insists on having one particular student only despite the other faculty rankings. I was told there are students admitted because the whole committee loved them, but one can get accepted either way.

Well yeah, it's always good to have a faculty member back you. But the post to which I replied said that was the only way, and my point is that's not true for all programs.

 

[clinpsyc87]

Well yeah, it's always good to have a faculty member back you. But the post to which I replied said that was the only way, and my point is that's not true for all programs.

Agreed, my point was just that there is a solid amount of truth to it for the average program, and the director of my ms program would say exactly that just as strongly as a way of preparing us for the difficult process of finding a sponsor. I'm pretty sure he also used the term slave. But more as a teaching approach.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I actually talked to a faculty member at und. Supposedly for all they say about the "cohort model" of the whole faculty ranking applicants, in real life that gets thrown out the window when a core faculty insists on having one particular student only despite the other faculty rankings. I was told there are students admitted because the whole committee loved them, but one can get accepted either way.

My program worked on a full-fledged mentorship model; folks were selected solely by their POI, who then forwarded his/her list along to the department. Each professor was allotted a certain number of acceptance slots based on funding, their needs and interests, etc.

This, of course, represents an n of 1.

I suppose this counts as courting a researcher, but it's more that you apply to work with a specific individual rather than to the department as a whole. Beyond that, I never felt like a "slave" to my advisor. But again, n = 1.

 

[WisNeuro]

Not sure data wise

Ah, so it was a made up bit of misinformation. Just clarifying.

Also, by using your same assumption of the APPIC data, you could also look at debt load and easily see that many of those PhD applicants wouldn't need to use the loan repayment options given that they carry much less debt, on average.

Long story short. Don't assert things as facts when you obviously have no idea about the veracity of the statement.

 

[MCParent]

Beyond that, I never felt like a "slave" to my advisor.

Never once, here, either. I don't pick students to be my slaves either--I want them to have jobs, and that means they have to have interests that diverge somewhat from my own, that they will become better at than I am.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Ah, so it was a made up bit of misinformation. Just clarifying.

Also, by using your same assumption of the APPIC data, you could also look at debt load and easily see that many of those PhD applicants wouldn't need to use the loan repayment options given that they carry much less debt, on average.

Long story short. Don't assert things as facts when you obviously have no idea about the veracity of the statement.

My point is it isn't a PhD versus PsyD scenario as either degree allows for licensure and this is required for loan repayment. Not all PhD programs are funded. Some PhD programs are now in Professional Psychology programs. Many University Programs now have both PhD and PsyD programs so it seems naive to imply all PhD or all PsyD programs fall under a Black/White type of scenario. This mind set is bogus and full of holes in current day psychology training models. Some people still have antiquated reasoning that PhD training is only adequate to work in research/academic setting when under current day training models PhD has vibrant clinical experiential training. Conversely, others are so misinformed and believe PsyD training has no psychometric, research, or teaching experiences and think these are Diploma Mills with only practicum experiential training similar to MSW programs.

 

[WisNeuro]

I think most of us would just prefer if when you made "points," you didn't make up "facts" to support your points.

 

[chicandtoughness]

[deleted]

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

I think most of us would just prefer if when you made "points," you didn't make up "facts" to support your points.

Broad generation "most of us" when this is a message board with vast diversity of opinions representing multiple training models, not just PhD. Facts frequently are influenced by biases without any reality orientation. Psychologists and psychologists training models have many shades of gray without being Black/White worldviews.

 

[WisNeuro]

Oh, no. Based on others' reactions, I think "most of us" is a pretty apt description. Many people have called you out for posting misleading and patently false information as fact, multiple times. Often, these are readily verifiable data, not solipsistic rubbish. The more established of us know better, but we would rather spare the new students the follies of that false and misleading data at times.

 

[Shooter]

Of the people I know who have paid off this level of debt, there has been a general pattern of characteristics I’ve observed, of which I’ve outlined below. I can’t stress enough that this is anecdotal, and will most definitely not apply to therapist-only clinicians that have chosen to attend FSPS and non-accredited internships.

1. Don’t be just a therapist. Get training in a variety of arenas in which psychologists can provide input. Unless you’re providing a therapy service that not many clinicians are involved with and choose not to be (i.e., sex-offender treatment) and you can control your rate, being a therapist alone is not a viable financial decision. Get involved in assessment/consultation. It’s where the cash flow is at.
   
   
2. During grad school, network like crazy with people who are clearly successful financially. Be likeable. Exhibit hard-work and ethical characteristics to people whom you knowing will benefit you and your career down the line. Train under folks who know their **** and are also clearly pulling in capital. *Note: this is going to be much more difficult to accomplish if you’re at a school with a cohort of 50+ and there is a much higher competition for resources.
   
   
3. Pardon this statement, in that it might come across as a pejorative, but don’t be a Cluster B mess; and if you are, work on it. It’s usually not attractive in the long-term to potential employers, and it will almost always rear its head and cause problems in these important future business relationships.
   
   
4. Always be open to feedback. Always.
   
   
5. Make sure you procure an accredited internship. For real, make sure you procure an accredited internship. If anything, this has been the only thing I have seen attorneys consistently and successfully use to discredit someone on voire-dire, and I imagine that it extends and generalizes to other areas of practice.
   
   
6. Secure yourself a job with solid benefits/pay that you can live off of, preferably one that allows for flexibility.
   
   
7. More importantly, make sure said job does not limit your livelihood and prohibit you from engaging in PP.
   
   
8. Procure PP employment through aforementioned contacts made networking during grad school/ internship.
   
   
9. Get a good accountant and investment broker.
   
   
10. Get in 10-15 hours of billable time per week in said practice that you were able to join through the aforementioned successful networking. Even with 30-35% overhead, if you’re billing at a respectable rate, you’ll be all good.
    
    
11. While paying off higher interest loans, invest excess capital in areas that will allow for passive income streams.

Solutions

 

[smalltownpsych]

Just wanted to correct some misinformation that was posted earlier about the NHSC loan repayment program. Yes, it was a max of 50k for two years last year and not all sites qualify for the max. Also, each year the max amount can vary. Also, and this is where the misinformation was, it is not 50k for the next two years. After two years you can reapply on an annual basis and the amount they pay goes down each year. I forget the exact dollar amounts, but do know that after 5 years it ends and the total compensation is under 100k. I don't even know if I will do the last year because it is only 10k. It is still a good program and it will really help me pay off the higher interest loans so that I can stop the bleeding, but it is not quite the solution to massive debt that OND was painting.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

I just started NHSC and the Clinical Director at this site said they had a number who work 8 to 10 years to pay off their 200 thousand plus loans. Depending on the site score influences the amount of money the psychologist receives. Score of 15 or above allows for 25,000 per year for two year commitment. One of the other psychologist started in 2008 after gaining licensure and PhD from University based program and will finally have her loans paid off next year. She started off in the Federal Corrections but had to move because husband was in the military. The amount you receive is fixed based on the site score rating and whether you are Full time or part time.

The director at my site indicated that most leave for better paying jobs after paying back their loans. That is one problem in that rate of pay may range from 50,000 to 70,000 but some of the AMC pay up to 100,000 but these position are more competitive.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I wish it stayed at 25k per year. I would stay here till they were all paid off. Read the info from the NHSC about renewal of your contract, it's all spelled out in there.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Many University Programs now have both PhD and PsyD programs

No, no, they don't.

 

[WisNeuro]

No, no, they don't.

It's a old game we like to play here on SDN. 10 lies and a truth. OND usually hosts.

 

[erg923]

Exactly 3 traditional universities in this country have both.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I guess it all depends on how you define "many". Kind of reminds me of when Bill Clinton was parsing definitions of sex. In all seriousness, part of my training as a psychologist was in being precise in my communications. I do get a bit sloppy on the board from time to time, as do we all, it isn't a scientific journal. Nevertheless, I try to be specific about what is data and what is personal experience and observations and what is just my personal opinion. I like what my opthamologist friend, who is extremely data driven by the way, told my wife when she was questioning his findings. "No, I just make this stuff up as I go along." Unfortunately, too many people in our field do exactly that.

 

[deleted106747]

VA also has loan repayment for some positions. I have nowhere near $200K but have more than I would care to admit, and have full student loan repayment at my job. It's very nice, and the VA is (with some difficulties) overall a good place to work with good growth opportunities in terms of career trajectory.

 

[Koogy]

Not sure data wise but overall probability there are many more PhD trained psychologists than PsyD and I believe APPIC data probably has the ratio of PhD/PsyD. In most States there are more PhD psychologists than PsyD who are licensed.

That cant be completely accurate. You have to list the states and their ratios. Don't generalize based on your own hunches. Send the stats and the source. From my personal anecdotal experience, its getting to be pretty even, depending on what state you are in.

 

[bmedclinic]

I have over 200k in debt, if you count my house.
But Im applying to be a HSP right now, and seriously considering NHSC positions after that.

 

[SmithPsy24]

VA also has loan repayment for some positions. I have nowhere near $200K but have more than I would care to admit, and have full student loan repayment at my job. It's very nice, and the VA is (with some difficulties) overall a good place to work with good growth opportunities in terms of career trajectory.

In addition to VA's own program, there's also the Public Sector Loan Forgiveness program (which also applies to non-profit and Tribal work). The PSLF program has several contingencies - first off being 120 on-time payments while employed full-time by a qualifying organization on an income-based or contingent plan, and it only covers Direct Loans. However, they haven't actually forgiven any loans yet since it's not scheduled to kick in until 2017, and I imagine that politics could scuttle it at some point.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

and I imagine that politics could scuttle it at some point

I will be pretty shocked if it ends up happening longitudinally. With the 10 year deal, although people are paying some of it back over the 10 year period, I know many folks that are specifically choosing to pay the bare minimum and are banking on it all being forgiven, as it's written now-tax free, and just not worrying (i.e., actively not thinking/avoiding) about the accruing interest (They're also not betting on it being capped at 57.5). I could potentially see policymakers trying to make it for those that took out the loans during the relevant period allowed, like now. But I'm not up to speed at all on these issues. Do the feds have precedent with reneging on these types of policy issues? Either way, there's probably going to be a lot of whining from one side or the other come 2017.

 

[PikminOC]

I have been doing research on student loan debt and came across this video of this woman (Psy D) w/over 200k in debt. I cannot seriously believe how naive this woman was and how screwed she let herself become. I seriously think any person who is looking to take out loans for graduate school should watch this video.

[YOUTUBE]

The video is private now. You need permission from her to see it.