Clinical Psychology and Neuroscience of Psychopathology?

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So I wanted to ask if it is possible to get a PhD in Clinical Psychology but do research on psychopathology on the biological level ( neural systems, hormones, Using FMRI/ EEG/EKG to test biological expressions of things like perception)?

So is it possible to both have the comfort of the ability to practice clinical psychology and also study psychopathology biologically or is that best achieved through doing a neuroscience PhD? I ask because I thanks to a counseling psychology lab found myself really thinking that I love doing clinical work and that I would be doing mental health no matter what, but I also really like biology.

So... what would be the best path within psychology?

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[ResearchGirlie]

So I wanted to ask if it is possible to get a PhD in Clinical Psychology but do research on psychopathology on the biological level ( neural systems, hormones, Using FMRI/ EEG/EKG to test biological expressions of things like perception)?

So is it possible to both have the comfort of the ability to practice clinical psychology and also study psychopathology biologically or is that best achieved through doing a neuroscience PhD? I ask because I thanks to a counseling psychology lab found myself really thinking that I love doing clinical work and that I would be doing mental health no matter what, but I also really like biology.

So... what would be the best path within psychology?

You can absolutely study biological aspects of clinical psychology. In fact I'd argue that you almost have to study/understand biological aspects of psychopathology to be in the running for top jobs, funding sources, etc.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

What programs are letting clinical psychologists do biopsychology research for dissertations.
Can you be dually certified in neuroscience and clinical psychology?

 

[ResearchGirlie]

There are far too many university and faculty members to list so I'd suggest looking at the websites for clinical psychology graduate programs. You'll need to figure out your area of interest and then find people that do what you are interested in. Look for journal articles that interest you, see who wrote them and what university they are at and go from there.

 

[doggums]

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[AcronymAllergy]

Almost all of the ones I've looked at. And I'm not sure what you mean by "certified"? There's nothing to get certified in as far as I know... you get a PhD and then do research in whatever. Neuroscience is a fairly new field, so many top neuroscience researchers are actually just psychology or biology PhDs. I have my undergrad degree in neuroscience and not a single professor had a PhD in neuro... yet I worked with one doing psychopharmacological research, brain surgery on all sorts of rodents, electrolytic lesioning, testing at the neuronal level, etc.

This. There's generally nothing that's going to inherently prohibit anyone from doing biologically-based psychopathological reserach, assuming you have training/education in the relevant areas necessary for understanding these topics. The biggest limiting factor would probably just be access to the facilities/materials and participants.

I'm also confused by the "certified" comment. Mind you I didn't attend a neuroscience doctoral program, but I wasn't aware that neuroscience offered any sort of formal certification. For clinical psych, there's the issue of state licensure, which requires a doctoral degree in clinical, counseling, or school psych (thus a neuroscience doctorate wouldn't be eligible for licensure as a psychologist).

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

By certified I mean like dual doctorates, be both a neuroscientist and a clinical psychologist.

Like I know it is odd. But I want to do primarily affective/cognitive/perceptual neuroscience research if I do a PhD. But at the same time I want to have the oppertunity to practice clinical psychology. Likewise I'd also I were a professor want to be able to teach neuroscience courses, which I don't think I would be allowed to with a degree in clinical psychology.

 

[doggums]

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[AcronymAllergy]

Probably not then... to get doctorates in two areas you need to just... get separate doctorates in two areas.

That's not odd at all. In fact, a lot of psychologists do that kind of work. You are 100% allowed to teach neuroscience if your PhD is in clinical psychology, psychology, biology, hell, even physics sometimes. Again, I will restate that neuroscience is a relatively new field and even in a neuroscience PhD program, I doubt all the faculty would have a PhD in neuroscience. Think of everything you learn about famous neuroscience discoveries... I'm willing to bet almost none of those people had a degree in it.

For serious, just look up the work of some clinical psychologists, cognitive/perceptual/EEG/fMRI stuff is huge.

Agreed. Neuroscience is also such a somewhat ubiquitous and cross-disciplinary field that I'd be very, very surprised if some psychologists (particularly neuropsychologists) weren't teaching neuroscience courses and/or being housed in neuroscience departments.

What I will say is this--if you want to be licensed to provide clinical services as a psychologist, then it's going to be necessary to get your degree in clinical/counseling/school psychology. The only way to obtain licensure with a doctorate in neuroscience would be to complete a recertification program, which could almost end up taking as long as earning a second doctorate.

Conversely, the same is not necessarily true for teaching/researching in neuroscience. As doggums mentioned, there are plenty of clinical and cognitive psychologists (along with Ph.D.'s in other disciplines) working in neuroscience-related areas. You might consider looking at whether there are clinical psych programs that would let you perhaps minor in neuroscience. If not, then just look at getting as much neuroscience-related research and class experience as possible while in grad school.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Hmm interesting, well I'm going to need to do a little bit more research I guess. I've kinda been set on applying to med school up until I took a counseling skills lab class and remembered why I actually like psychology. But yah, I'll need to see how well I can blend my interests, i.e clinical/ neuroscience/ evolutionary psychology into the best plan.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

For serious, just look up the work of some clinical psychologists, cognitive/perceptual/EEG/fMRI stuff is huge.

There is definitely some interesting work being done w. various imaging mediums. There was a thread awhile back where I listed a couple of labs doing imaging + psych Dx work, so it may be worth doing a search for MRI and neuropsychology.

 

[node of ranvier]

There are definitely many options out there for a dual degree in Clinical and Neuro. It really depends on what area of psychopathology you're most interested in. Two that I know off the top of my head are CU-Bolder and Temple University. Good luck!

 

[Ollie123]

I don't know of dual degree programs per se, but its not hard at all to find clinical psychologists doing neuroscience type work. I applied almost exclusively to places that did this within a very narrow field. My thesis and dissertation are a fusion of cog neuro, pharmacology, and traditional clinical psychology. You'd be hard-pressed to find a major research institute that DIDN'T have at least one person doing neuroscience work, though it may not be in your particular population of interest.

My main motivation for choosing clinical was that it was the more general degree. As a clinical psychologist I'd be able to do most anything I was interested in within other fields without anyone raising an eyebrow, but the inverse was not always true.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

And these programs allow for a student to actually be admitted to obtain both degrees? Just because a department houses two specialties, does not mean they offer dual degrees. I imagine this would also take forever to finish the requirements of both degrees.

Seems like they allow for even triple doctorates in neuroscience fields. Maybe they could allow for Psych as well.
Either way it's something I would be interested in I think.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I don't know of dual degree programs per se, but its not hard at all to find clinical psychologists doing neuroscience type work. I applied almost exclusively to places that did this within a very narrow field. My thesis and dissertation are a fusion of cog neuro, pharmacology, and traditional clinical psychology. You'd be hard-pressed to find a major research institute that DIDN'T have at least one person doing neuroscience work, though it may not be in your particular population of interest.

My main motivation for choosing clinical was that it was the more general degree. As a clinical psychologist I'd be able to do most anything I was interested in within other fields without anyone raising an eyebrow, but the inverse was not always true.

Do you feel disadvantaged at university settings? Like I know getting a neuro degree from a bio department is going to make it easier to work in either, but a neuro from a cognitive psych program will make things more difficult.
Do you know if the same can be said for you? Do you think doing a clinical degree will disadvantage you in the long run if your interests are fundamentally in neuroscience paradigm work?

 

[MBellows]

Do you feel disadvantaged at university settings? Like I know getting a neuro degree from a bio department is going to make it easier to work in either, but a neuro from a cognitive psych program will make things more difficult.
Do you know if the same can be said for you? Do you think doing a clinical degree will disadvantage you in the long run if your interests are fundamentally in neuroscience paradigm work?

Have you looked at the MD/Ph.D. routes?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Have you looked at the MD/Ph.D. routes?

Not particularly, I think MD alone might be sufficient along with a residency in Neuro or Psych.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Not particularly, I think MD alone might be sufficient along with a residency in Neuro or Psych.

To do research.....no. You will be ill prepared to do your own research without having significant training and mentorship in doing research. Technical knowledge you gain as a clinician is useful, but if you don't know how to properly design, implement, and execute a research endeavor, then you'll be blowing in the wind rather quickly. I'm an N=1, but I've worked at two of the premier research uni's in the country and the vast majority of researchers sharpened their skills in formal training programs and/or under the mentorship of senior researchers. There just isn't the time or the resources to "learn on the job" in that kind of a setting. Maybe it is different at other institutions, but there is enough competition to cull the best from the best before you get through the door. Doing small studies as a clinician are definitely a worthwhile approach, but to be a full-time researcher....you'll need formal training.

FWIW...I considered some MD/Ph.D. programs, but I wasn't sold on the research training gained at the handful of programs I looked at during my travels. The Ph.D. training took a back seat to all of the medical training, and deadlines were driven by the calendar, not by the training. There are probably some wonderful training programs out there that can prepare a person to be an excellent clinical scientist, but it is far from a done deal to assume you'll get that training just because you understand the applied science end of things.

 

[nessa34]

There are several degree routes to doing clinical neuroscience research, and the exact degree you get is not as important as the content of your research. I'd focus on refining your research interests, finding potential grad school advisors doing work in that area, and going to whatever program will enable you to do that kind of research. A clinical vs. purely experimental degree has its tradeoffs- you may be eligible for more jobs but you also have more demands on your time in grad school. Along similar lines, I would recommend against a dual degree unless it does not add significant coursework. People will be more impressed with the extra publication you had time to publish vs. extra degrees on your CV. An MD is also an option, but T4C is right in that you would have to seek out opportunities for formal research training. There are a few MD programs with an emphasis in research, but even those programs make it take a backseat to clinical training.

 

[Ollie123]

Do you feel disadvantaged at university settings? Like I know getting a neuro degree from a bio department is going to make it easier to work in either, but a neuro from a cognitive psych program will make things more difficult.
Do you know if the same can be said for you? Do you think doing a clinical degree will disadvantage you in the long run if your interests are fundamentally in neuroscience paradigm work?

Not on the market yet, but for my goals I think if anything it will work to my advantage. However, I am eyeing 100% research jobs in academic medicine or traditional professorships at research heavy institutes. Would I be disadvantaged applying to a molecular neuroscience department housed within a biology department? Almost certainly, but then again my research and experiences really don't fit in that kind of setting so I wouldn't be any more inclined to apply to those sorts of jobs than I would to an opening in the comparative literature department. My interests are in clinical populations - I imagine I will be in a clinical department, but I imagine an appropriate experimental or behavioral/cognitive neuroscience department wouldn't be completely out of the question if the fit was right.

I think the answer is to simply look for people doing the sort of work you want to do. Let that guide what degree you are looking for. From your original post, it sounded like clinical programs could fit perfectly. If you want to study slices of pigeon brains under a microscope, that would be much harder to find in a clinical program.