College Decisions

[Gogetterr]

So here's the deal, my grades, test scores, and my high school profile are good enough to get me to some top schools; however, I think I would be happier attending my state university (UGA). I've heard and have come to believe that the undergrad you go to isn't really a factor in medical school decisions, which has further pushed me in the direction of attending UGA (provided I get in). Basically, if I were to get into top tier schools of sorts, should I still stick with UGA, save money, and likely be happier, or should I consider the "top tier school?"

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[SpeedySavior]

Happiness and money > prestige and valor

Grades and test scores > prestige and valor (To an extent)

Georgia is a great school.

 

[Stagg737]

What school you go to does play some role in getting into med school, it's just not as much as most undergrad schools would say. For example, a 3.5 from Harvard might be seen as equivalent to a 3.75 from state school. With that being said, as long as you do well in undergrad (get a 3.75+), do well on the MCAT, and get some decent extracurriculars in then going to a school that's not prestigious isn't going to hurt your med school applications. Literally thousands of students from state schools or liberal arts colleges are accepted every year. So go to a school where you'll enjoy your undergrad time as much as possible and just make sure you take care of business while you're there.

 

[Gingerbread_Man]

I think stagg737 said it well, I’d just add that going to a school where you aren’t happy can lead to burnout which can lead to lower grades thus offsetting any advantage the prestige may have given you. So go where you’ll be happy, as long as your numbers are good you will be fine.

 

[efle]

Undergrad selectivity matters a ton to private med schools (as much as GPA and MCAT, all under "highest importance").

That said, DO NOT go somewhere you think you'll be unhappy. What matters most is being sane and happy

 

[Gingerbread_Man]

That is a VERY misleading chart. The adcoms rated those criteria from 1 to 4 and the top of the chart lumps 3’s and 4’s making them seem equal. I can pretty much guarantee you that GPA, MCAT and school prestige are NOT viewed equally. MCAT and GPA are always the most important. Perhaps a friendly neighborhood adcom can clarify.

 

[efle]

That is a VERY misleading chart. The adcoms rated those criteria from 1 to 4 and the top of the chart lumps 3’s and 4’s making them seem equal. I can pretty much guarantee you that GPA, MCAT and school prestige are NOT viewed equally. MCAT and GPA are always the most important. Perhaps a friendly neighborhood adcom can clarify.

They are mean importance ratings. Of course nothing is going to have a 4. Using the 3-4 bin for a mean weighting of high importance makes sense. The chart was assembled by the AAMC in the way they thought would be most clear and helpful to applicants. Adcoms on this site differ greatly in their personal views on school prestige, but there really is no denying that on aggregate, private schools heavily factor in alma mater.

 

[Gingerbread_Man]

They are mean importance ratings. Of course nothing is going to have a 4. Using the 3-4 bin for a mean weighting of high importance makes sense. The chart was assembled by the AAMC in the way they thought would be most clear and helpful to applicants. Adcoms on this site differ greatly in their personal views on school prestige, but there really is no denying that on aggregate, private schools heavily factor in alma mater.

Obviously they’re the mean otherwise N=1, you missed my point. The top of the chart has everything that averages at 3 or above, that’s a huge range on a 4 point scale. If most adcoms rated something as 4 but a few rated it as 3 it would average in the high 3’s (3.8, 3.9, etc.) on the contrary if something was mostly rated as a 3 with a few 4’s sprinkled in it would rate in the low 3’s. Those are two significantly different valuations yet this chart equates them. It’s like saying someone with a 3.8 GPA is basically the same as someone with a 3.2 GPA.


Is a Harvard grad preferred over a Podunk U. grad all other things being equal? Obviously, yes. However at the end of the day, MCAT and grades matter more than anything and as such going to a school where you can be happy and thrive overcomes any advantage a prestigious school can give you (assuming you’re miserable there). My intent was to clarify that GPA/MCAT and school prestige are not weighted equally. Anyway I believe we both made the same point about going wherever the OP is happiest so I’ll leave it at that and not derail the thread further.

 

[efle]

Obviously they’re the mean otherwise N=1, you missed my point. The top of the chart has everything that averages at 3 or above, that’s a huge range on a 4 point scale. If most adcoms rated something as 4 but a few rated it as 3 it would average in the high 3’s (3.8, 3.9, etc.) on the contrary if something was mostly rated as a 3 with a few 4’s sprinkled in it would rate in the low 3’s. Those are two significantly different valuations yet this chart equates them. It’s like saying someone with a 3.8 GPA is basically the same as someone with a 3.2 GPA.


Is a Harvard grad preferred over a Podunk U. grad all other things being equal? Obviously, yes. However at the end of the day, MCAT and grades matter more than anything and as such going to a school where you can be happy and thrive overcomes any advantage a prestigious school can give you (assuming you’re miserable there). My intent was to clarify that GPA/MCAT and school prestige are not weighted equally. Anyway I believe we both made the same point about going wherever the OP is happiest so I’ll leave it at that and not derail the thread further.

Ah, we agree then. The chart does say that things are listed in order of mean rating, so what we actually know is that:

• MCAT and sGPA are king, and alma mater comes after your numbers, but it is entirely speculation how far apart within 3-4 these lie;
• Alma mater still falls between "important" and "very important", which places it higher than research experience, SES, race, secondary responses, "all other" (nonscience) GPA, and several other things SDN often misguidedly champions as being more crucial factors than where you went to school

 

[Gogetterr]

So say, hypothetically, if I were to get into Yale and UGA, and I was left to choose between the two, considering the fact that I would be happier at UGA and probably end up with a higher GPA there, would it be wise to turn down Yale? (Lets say money isn't a factor)

 

[Gogetterr]

Another situation, Vanderbilt or UGA? Assuming the same circumstances outlined above.

 

[goldy490]

I went to a top 20 and have a lot of friends who went to our state school (Bama) so I think Ive got a pretty good whack at this one. Schools like Vandy will provide you with an incredible education, amazing opportunities, and excellent access to professors. So you will likely have a better science basis for your MCAT, greater ease in getting involved with research and campus leadership, and much easier time getter strong rec letters. The catch is these schools are hard, so you'll be busting your butt for a 3.6 and may not have time to pursue all those opportunities. At UGA a strong GPA (3.8-4.0) is much easier to get, and you'll have more free time to pursue stuff outside the class room but getting involved will be more challenging. For example I had no problem getting strong recs, a great MCAT, and a bunch of campus involvement...but at the expense of a low GPA. My friends at Bama got excellent GPAs and were able to spend tons of hours doing stuff outside the classroom, but all struggled with the MCAT and had a really hard time getting involved in leadership. 2 guys couldn't apply because they couldn't get letters of rec even though they'd aced almost every class. So pick you're poison I guess. Cant go wrong either way if you work hard and stay on target.

 

[efle]

Another situation, Vanderbilt or UGA? Assuming the same circumstances outlined above.

I was incredibly impressed by Vandy. Look up some of their student happiness ratings, they're through the roof (in fact I believe they were happiest campus according to Princeton Review's college surveys). What makes you so sure UGA will be a much happier experience than Vandy?

In the end:
A more elite college does give you an important boost, and comes with a lot of opportunity (especially landing research positions with some seriously productive and connected labs, and getting to know big-name professors in smaller classes).
A more elite college hugely increases your odds of never applying; at these schools they assemble a thousand valedictorians, national merit scholars etc and tell them only a third can have good grades, which results in weeding out of many many people who would have been just fine at their state option. Make sure you're ready to risk it against a bunch of other top of their class students, because you have to come out above average.

 

[22031 Alum]

I went to a top 20 and have a lot of friends who went to our state school (Bama) so I think Ive got a pretty good whack at this one. Schools like Vandy will provide you with an incredible education, amazing opportunities, and excellent access to professors. So you will likely have a better science basis for your MCAT, greater ease in getting involved with research and campus leadership, and much easier time getter strong rec letters. The catch is these schools are hard, so you'll be busting your butt for a 3.6 and may not have time to pursue all those opportunities. At UGA a strong GPA (3.8-4.0) is much easier to get, and you'll have more free time to pursue stuff outside the class room but getting involved will be more challenging. For example I had no problem getting strong recs, a great MCAT, and a bunch of campus involvement...but at the expense of a low GPA. My friends at Bama got excellent GPAs and were able to spend tons of hours doing stuff outside the classroom, but all struggled with the MCAT and had a really hard time getting involved in leadership. 2 guys couldn't apply because they couldn't get letters of rec even though they'd aced almost every class. So pick you're poison I guess. Cant go wrong either way if you work hard and stay on target.

One thing to add to this: if you can get a "named" scholarship to a state school- usually a full ride with Honors college status, special seminars, research opportunities and other perks throughout your four years- then take that every time. Those programs cancel out most of the huge state school issues. I have never interacted with a colleague who was in one of those programs and wasn't setting the world on fire in med school and beyond.

 

[efle]

then take that every time.

Not every time. I turned one of these down, my sister took one. I've been very happy with the challenge and the nerdy tryhard peers I have, and she's felt miserable and dissimilar to her student body. I'm not a big believer in there being one school that fits you, but there probably is a type of school that fits.

So OP, think about the massive differences youd see between the school types. Do you want huge greek life? Big athletics? A big party scene (and good looking people?)? Small classes you can interact with profs, or big lectures you can skip and stream? Courses to kick your ass and push you vs be very manageable? And so on

 

[KinesiologyNerd]

I followed my happiness, but that happened to be at Michigan. I don't know really know where UGA ranks, but also consider that your school/major may be significantly higher held than the university at large. At the end of the day though, I'd always go where you'll be happiest. Gotta take care of yourself before you take care of others.

 

[22031 Alum]

I've been very happy with the challenge and the nerdy tryhard peers I have, and she's felt miserable

I have a hard time believing that there were zero other "nerdy tryhards..." at a school with an undergrad student body numbering in the tens of thousands, but I can't speak from experience. I will concede that they were probably harder to find, but that's why I am a fan of programs that create a smaller community of scholars.

 

[efle]

I have a hard time believing that there were zero other "nerdy tryhards..." at a school with an undergrad student body numbering in the tens of thousands, but I can't speak from experience. I will concede that they were probably harder to find, but that's why I am a fan of programs that create a smaller community of scholars.

She's actually at a LAC, I meant only to speak about named scholarships to schools with different types of student bodies, can't comment specifically on scholarship to State. I bet it's much easier if you're in an Honors college somewhere huge

 

[Gogetterr]

@KinesiologyNerd Uga ranks 20th for public schools, around 62nd nationwide, and 42nd for Biology (my intended major). Thoughts?

 

[efle]

@KinesiologyNerd Uga ranks 20th for public schools, around 62nd nationwide, and 42nd for Biology (my intended major). Thoughts?

They rank undergrad majors now?

Uga will be a notable step down academically from the likes of Vandy/Yale but still a very solid school. What makes you think UGA will make you happiest? If it really will, choose it and don't look back. Happiness gained >> Top 20 prestige

 

[ComputerGuy365]

So here's the deal, my grades, test scores, and my high school profile are good enough to get me to some top schools; however, I think I would be happier attending my state university (UGA). I've heard and have come to believe that the undergrad you go to isn't really a factor in medical school decisions, which has further pushed me in the direction of attending UGA (provided I get in). Basically, if I were to get into top tier schools of sorts, should I still stick with UGA, save money, and likely be happier, or should I consider the "top tier school?"

Go to the school that you can achieve the Highest GPA. If you have a 4.0/38, schools are not going to care if you went to a no name school.

 

[efle]

Go to the school that you can achieve the Highest GPA. If you have a 4.0/38, schools are not going to care if you went to a no name school.

I'd rephrase it as, "go to the best school you can achieve a high GPA at".

But above all, make sure you're headed somewhere you can be happy. I still want to hear OPs reasons for thinking he will be happiest at UGa

 

[KinesiologyNerd]

@KinesiologyNerd Uga ranks 20th for public schools, around 62nd nationwide, and 42nd for Biology (my intended major). Thoughts?

Pfft yeah so to my Ohio ears I was like UGA is a great school who cares? And obviously from that it definitely is. For comparison my hometown U is open enrollment haha.

I would go to UGA and never look back, personally. It's a great education and will get you into medical school. Besides... sports at Yale? Weak.

 

[Gogetterr]

@efle I have a lot of family and friends that I'm close with that are planning to attend (although I am definitely planning on branching out and meeting a lot of new people), I have a brother currently attending and one that graduated, from the visits I've come to love the campus and feel, and most importantly, I'm a work hard play hard kind of guy, I take care of business but I also want a prominent social scene. Furthermore, I wanna have time to do things other than merely school work. Lastly, I realize that the medical path will be burdensome and most definitely would not like to burn out before medical school. It's a long road; I don't wanna be struggling the whole way.

 

[goldy490]

A more elite college does give you an important boost, and comes with a lot of opportunity (especially landing research positions with some seriously productive and connected labs, and getting to know big-name professors in smaller classes).
A more elite college hugely increases your odds of never applying; at these schools they assemble a thousand valedictorians, national merit scholars etc and tell them only a third can have good grades, which results in weeding out of many many people who would have been just fine at their state option. Make sure you're ready to risk it against a bunch of other top of their class students, because you have to come out above average.

Couldn't have said it better...Take this advice to heart

 

[efle]

@efle I have a lot of family and friends that I'm close with that are planning to attend (although I am definitely planning on branching out and meeting a lot of new people), I have a brother currently attending and one that graduated, from the visits I've come to love the campus and feel, and most importantly, I'm a work hard play hard kind of guy, I take care of business but I also want a prominent social scene. Furthermore, I wanna have time to do things other than merely school work. Lastly, I realize that the medical path will be burdensome and most definitely would not like to burn out before medical school. It's a long road; I don't wanna be struggling the whole way.

I think the "work hard play hard" mentality is actually at its biggest at some of the Ivy type schools, but your points about being close to family and wanting a less intense undergrad experience are great reasons to choose UGa. Sounds like your decision is already made! Good luck, and do your best to win some merit aid - if you're the type to get in to Yale, you'll probably have a good shot at some UGa scholarships.

 

[Gogetterr]

@efle Ya it's a lot to think about. Thanks for your feedback on everything though. I really appreciate it! May I ask where you attended and of your experiences?

 

[efle]

@efle Ya it's a lot to think about. Thanks for your feedback on everything though. I really appreciate it! May I ask where you attended and of your experiences?

Washington University in St. Louis. It's been absolutely wonderful for me because I was seeking a new environment far from home, nerdy peers and a challenge and have come through with a strong GPA. It also took me very little effort to land a full time research gig, and I got to have wonderful small classes in my topics of interest with profs that have decades of medical/clinical experience. I'm not big on the popular sports so I didn't care about the lack of giant state football/basketball/baseball experience but some of my friends wish we had more spirit and big sports games. There is plenty of partying (like multiple things going on weeknights), which is true of almost all universities. The students have been very happy (similar to Vandy) and collaborative, unlike some more depressed and cutthroat schools like Johns Hopkins. But, 2/3 premeds here are weeded out during the prereqs. So I saw good friends with top 1-2% SATs and straight As in high school struggle for a year or two, fail to be above the medians because being top 1% isn't special any more, and eventually drop premed aspirations for PhD or non-science degrees instead. It can be a big gamble if you've got your heart set on MD.

 

[mw18]

.

 

[efle]

Vandy isn't much of a middle ground. They (like Wustl ) actually have test scores higher than Stanford, Duke, Hopkins and the majority of the Ivies. They're an academically intense bunch. Do agree that UGA should be chosen without hesitation if being close to family is a big factor for happiness

 

[mw18]

.

 

[efle]

Ah then maybe next time don't call it middke ground right after a statement on uncertainty of good grades atYale !

 

[mw18]

.

 

[efle]

I mean UGa is a well regarded school too its all relative!

 

[Dreamstoo]

So here's the deal, my grades, test scores, and my high school profile are good enough to get me to some top schools; however, I think I would be happier attending my state university (UGA). I've heard and have come to believe that the undergrad you go to isn't really a factor in medical school decisions, which has further pushed me in the direction of attending UGA (provided I get in). Basically, if I were to get into top tier schools of sorts, should I still stick with UGA, save money, and likely be happier, or should I consider the "top tier school?"

I personally would choose UGA. Great sports school/ big student body/very social and decent academics. I've heard their pre med program is pretty solid too. I think the average GPA is also pretty high at UGA as a whole. The better the GPA in undergrad the better it would look once you apply to medical school.

Once again, this is all on you OP. We shouldn't influence you too much. College decisions is a fun time and enjoy it.

 

[doc05]

UGA is a very good school. But don't sell yourself short -- if you can get into a top place like Yale, go for it.

 

[efle]

UGA is a very good school. But don't sell yourself short -- if you can get into a top place like Yale, go for it.

Re #3: the people getting cut for being average at Princeton would probably kick ass and make it through at State. If one is worried about making their dream happen they should avoid Ivy caliber schools

 

[PREDOCSIMP]

So here's the deal, my grades, test scores, and my high school profile are good enough to get me to some top schools; however, I think I would be happier attending my state university (UGA). I've heard and have come to believe that the undergrad you go to isn't really a factor in medical school decisions, which has further pushed me in the direction of attending UGA (provided I get in). Basically, if I were to get into top tier schools of sorts, should I still stick with UGA, save money, and likely be happier, or should I consider the "top tier school?"

This is the exact question I faced. Here is the important part, do your best wherever you go. It dosent matter where you do your undergrad. The physicians I know came from all over the place . Prestige of a school is very hard to define, it is more a respect of endowment. The only reason I initially thought about attending a higher university is the access to research;however, they don't let undergrads do much research across the board. I am attending my state school due to financial reasons. I won't have as much undergrad debt as going out of state. Go to the place that you want to go. It will not impede your success as physician as long as you do your best.

P.S
Hopkins is not in the ivy league conference, nor is Duke. I don't believe in none of that advertising scheme of undergrad schools trying to get in on the ivy league action.

 

[efle]

This is the exact question I faced. Here is the important part, do your best wherever you go. It dosent matter where you do your undergrad. The physicians I know came from all over the place . Prestige of a school is very hard to define, it is more a respect of endowment. The only reason I initially thought about attending a higher university is the access to research;however, they don't let undergrads do much research across the board. I am attending my state school due to financial reasons. I won't have as much undergrad debt as going out of state. Go to the place that you want to go. It will not impede your success as physician as long as you do your best.

P.S
Hopkins is not in the ivy league conference, nor is Duke. I don't believe in none of that advertising scheme of undergrad schools trying to get in on the ivy league action.

According to the AAMC survey undergrad selectivity is of highest importance (like GPA and MCAT) to private schools.

Undergrads absolutely can do productive research on their own projects. I know many people with impressive honors theses.

Not sure what you're saying about that last bit, like that schools like Stanford and MIT are not actually prestigious or elite since they aren't in the Ivy athletic conference...?

 

[PREDOCSIMP]

According to the AAMC survey undergrad selectivity is of highest importance (like GPA and MCAT) to private schools.

Undergrads absolutely can do productive research on their own projects. I know many people with impressive honors theses.

Not sure what you're saying about that last bit, like that schools like Stanford and MIT are not actually prestigious or elite since they aren't in the Ivy athletic conference...?

Can I see that link?
I am saying it is not an important factor, it will not hinder his acceptance to medical school. Considering the massive percent of diversity in medical students. I am sorry, I was referring to an inside joke. Some author wrote a paper on undergrad ivy league schools, which is absurd. He was clearly paid to write the paper.

 

[efle]

Can I see that link?
I am saying it is not an important factor, it will not hinder his acceptance to medical school. Considering the massive percent of diversity in medical students. I am sorry, I was referring to an inside joke. Some author wrote a paper on undergrad ivy league schools, which is absurd. He was clearly paid to write the paper.

Sure thing, here

Depends where he wants to go to MD school! For the Top 10-20, 90-95% of accepted students have research experience according to the MSAR, with some schools even at 96-97% acceptees having research!

What like trying to boost Ivy rep even more by criticizing the top non-Ivy schools? Gonna be tough to convince people Duke isn't a damn good school lol

 

[PREDOCSIMP]

Sure thing, here

Depends where he wants to go to MD school! For the Top 10-20, 90-95% of accepted students have research experience according to the MSAR, with some schools even at 96-97% acceptees having research!

What like trying to boost Ivy rep even more by criticizing the top non-Ivy schools? Gonna be tough to convince people Duke isn't a damn good school lol

Being an ivy league school does not mean that you are a good school. It is only a sports conference. I never said any school is good or bad. Please reread my post. I am reading the link. One second.

 

[efle]

Please tell me which ivy is not a good school ?

 

[22031 Alum]

Please tell me which ivy is not a good school ?

It's not that any of the Ivies isn't a good school, it's the point that "Ivy League" is truly just a sports conference, despite many people using it as a term to mean "the best schools." So in the most literal sense, aiming for "an Ivy" is the same as aiming for a Big East school or a Mountain West school.

 

[efle]

It's not that any of the Ivies isn't a good school, it's the point that "Ivy League" is truly just a sports conference, despite many people using it as a term to mean "the best schools."

It originally was such. Now its synonymous with a sample of the most selective schools in the nation. It is true that being ivy means a good school.

 

[PREDOCSIMP]

Alright, as I predicted the

Please tell me which ivy is not a good school ?

Being an Ivy league school= does not automatically produce a successful school. I don't think you understand my point. Moving on...

I looked at the survey, and as predicted found conflicting information .

I went further and did not any information regarding the importance versus the lack of importance. Maybe you can help me out?

 

[22031 Alum]

It originally was such. Now its synonymous with a sample of the most selective schools in the nation. It is true that being ivy means a good school.

No, it's still just the eight schools that make up an athletic conference. If they ever stopped participating in athletic events as such, then what you said would be true. They are top schools, but being a good school doesn't make you an Ivy, being in the athletic conference does.

 

[PREDOCSIMP]

No, it's still just the eight schools that make up an athletic conference. If they ever stopped participating in athletic events as such, then what you said would be true. They are top schools, but being a good school doesn't make you an Ivy, being in the athletic conference does.

Just save it for later. I don't think he or she knew about the conference.

 

[efle]

Alright, as I predicted the


Being an Ivy league school= does not automatically produce a successful school. I don't think you understand my point. Moving on...

I looked at the survey, and as predicted found conflicting information .
View attachment 193844
View attachment 193845



I went further and did not any information regarding the importance versus the lack of importance. Maybe you can help me out?

Just save it for later. I don't think he or she knew about the conference.

Private medical schools rated undergrad prestige highly important, note in my original post how I said it was rated highest importance by private schools. Public medical schools don't care where you went to undergrad - they instead rate instate residency as highly important. It states on that very same page the (private) vs (public) difference.

As predicted from your inability to understand the chart, you have a tenuous grasp of verbal reasoning. When you state that "Being an ivy league school does not mean that you are a good school," you are stating that the Ivy league schools are not a subset entirely contained within "good schools." However, as I pointed out, Ivy is a subset entirely included within "good schools" and thus if someone says they went to an Ivy, it does mean they went to a good school. It's as if you said "Being in B does not mean A" when every member of B does have A. You'll benefit from a 100 level phil class if you can squeeze that in.

Perhaps what you meant to say was, "the Ivy leagues are all good schools but derive their name from their athletic conference rather than their shared high quality". A parent of mine went back to school at an Ivy while I was a kid, I'm very aware of the athletic conference...

 

[PREDOCSIMP]

Private medical schools rated undergrad prestige highly important, note in my original post how I said it was rated highest importance by private schools. Public medical schools don't care where you went to undergrad - they instead rate instate residency as highly important. It states on that very same page the (private) vs (public) difference.

As predicted from your inability to understand the chart, you have a tenuous grasp of verbal reasoning. When you state that "Being an ivy league school does not mean that you are a good school," you are stating that the Ivy league schools are not a subset entirely contained within "good schools." However, as I pointed out, Ivy is a subset entirely included within "good schools" and thus if someone says they went to an Ivy, it does mean they went to a good school. It's as if you said "Being in B does not mean A" when every member of B does have A. You'll benefit from a 100 level phil class if you can squeeze that in.

Perhaps what you meant to say was, "the Ivy leagues are all good schools but derive their name from their athletic conference rather than their shared high quality". A parent of mine went back to school at an Ivy while I was a kid, I'm very aware of the athletic conference...

I am only applying to public medical schools.