COMLEX III

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DocEspana

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Just got back from being completely abused by the COMLEX III. I was warned by other residents who took it before me that it focuses on OMT much more than any of the previous COMLEX exams... but I want to be the first here to formally stress it.

There is A LOT of COMPLEX OMT on the COMLEX 3 as per multiple people's reports on it and my experience getting dragged out behind the metaphorical barn and beaten senseless with OMT questions.

I went through the first 200 questions and said "wow there is a lot of OMT on this." then the next 100 I said "oh damn and its hard".

I decided to record how many 100% OMT questions (so not counting ones where the facilitation was given but wasnt vital to getting the correct answer) were on my last 100 questions. 19-21! Depending on if you count questions that were OMT questions but the answer ended up being something akin to "time to call the surgeon". 19-21% (admittedly only quantitatively measured in my last 100 questions) of the test was this.

Grumble, grumble, something about diversity of topics, grumble, grumble.

So just heads up to anyone preparing to take it this year or early next year.

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mind you, im not saying the questions were in any way shape or form unfair. They were just so numerous and many with a surprising level of complexity.
 
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mind you, im not saying the questions were in any way shape or form unfair. They were just so numerous and many with a surprising level of complexity.

Hopefully it's the last time you'll ever have to deal with OMT.
 
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mind you, im not saying the questions were in any way shape or form unfair. They were just so numerous and many with a surprising level of complexity.

First congrats on being done with it!

Would you say Green book is enough? I'm thinking about taking it early next year, before forgetting everything about growing and raising little people, cutting and manipulating people.
 
First congrats on being done with it!

Would you say Green book is enough? I'm thinking about taking it early next year, before forgetting everything about growing and raising little people, cutting and manipulating people.

I would say you need to read the Green Book more thoroughly when you read it for any of the other ones. The level of complexity with the OMT questions is shocking.

For example, I had multiple questions on when you can do manipulation of any kind, as well as specific to hvla, on those with spondylolisthesis if various grades. Sacral belt vs counter strain vs hvla vs Muscle energy vs surgery.

As far as studying. If you take it early (abd remember any peds or ibgyn) study a lot of medicine. If you take it late, the medicine stuff will seem pretty easy, so study a lot of peds and obgyn.

Experience is the best tutor for step 3. Though I had no exoerience in OMT since 2nd year and it wasn't all Chapman points and facilitation. It was a lot of "you want to do OMT in this seriously ill and/or structurally debilitated person, what's the best technique.
 
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Thanks DocEspana, I haven't decided how early yet. Depending on my schedule, aiming for late summer or fall. How long did you study for it ? I'm doing a PC track so I think medicine part will be easy a few months in, everything else not so much.

OMM has been all but forgotten as of last June, at least it's only one day :)
 
when do people usually take this test? I'm just trying to figure out which length of test bank to get (6 vs. 12 month) and ive heard a lot of different timelines of when people take it. just curious
 
How much does COMPLEX scores matter if you end up doing well on USMLE and only apply to ACGME residencies?
 
So is the green book still the best and only resource for OMM studying? I'm only taking Comlex II, but I really want to study OMM well, so I'm wondering if there is something else out there that's recommended?
 
Yep, stick with the Green Book.
 
How much does COMPLEX scores matter if you end up doing well on USMLE and only apply to ACGME residencies?

Depends on your long term plans. If you are planning on completing residency and going on to fellowship then the step III score may have some effect... but for a lot of specialties people only care that you passed it. If you are planning on completing residency and going to work, then the score is meaningless as long as you pass.
 
Depends on your long term plans. If you are planning on completing residency and going on to fellowship then the step III score may have some effect... but for a lot of specialties people only care that you passed it. If you are planning on completing residency and going to work, then the score is meaningless as long as you pass.

Thanks for the response. Would a ACGME residency PD care about low COMPLEX step I and II scores if your USMLE step I and II are good?
 
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Thanks for the response. Would a ACGME residency PD care about low COMPLEX step I and II scores if your USMLE step I and II are good?

Yes they would (see scenario 3)

Here's the quandary that always comes up when DO students take both exams.

Scenario 1: you take both and do well on both.
Great, you've shown you know the information. So why did you take the second exam? Most programs only need one; the frequency of programs that insist on the USMLE is small (but not 0). Unless you're planning on applying to programs that insist on both, just take one of them.

Scenario 2: you take both, do well on COMLEX and poorly on the USMLE
Congrats, you've reinforced the impression that DOs can't hack it in the MD world to anyone who believes that sort of nonsense. But now a program isn't sure what to think. Was the COMLEX score a fluke? The USMLE score? Who knows. I'm not going to take a risk on the bad score being a fluke.

Scenario 3: you take both, do poorly on COMLEX and well on the USMLE
As above, I'm not sure what to make of this. Which one of the scores is the fluke? I don't know. I'm setting your application aside.

Scenario 4: you take both, do poorly on both
Money wasted. Track record proven.

So... what I always recommend is take the COMLEX (because you're going to need it to graduate), and if you know you're going to apply to programs that will not accept the COMLEX, then assess the risk of taking the USMLE and decide then.
 
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It's in the title of the thread and everything!
howdareyoun.gif

Pretty much my my face every time I read COMPLEX in a COMLEX thread.

Also props to DocE for being the only person ever to properly use the word COMPLEX in all caps in a COMLEX thread.
 
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1) I attempt to be correct. Auto correct attempts to foil me at all costs.

2) an update: I passed. With a score that equilibrates to "IDGAF", I am free of the COMLEX.

In the words of MLK jr: lets all join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, I'm free at last"

FreeAtLast.jpg
 
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Yes they would (see scenario 3)

Here's the quandary that always comes up when DO students take both exams.

Scenario 1: you take both and do well on both.
Great, you've shown you know the information. So why did you take the second exam? Most programs only need one; the frequency of programs that insist on the USMLE is small (but not 0). Unless you're planning on applying to programs that insist on both, just take one of them.

Scenario 2: you take both, do well on COMLEX and poorly on the USMLE
Congrats, you've reinforced the impression that DOs can't hack it in the MD world to anyone who believes that sort of nonsense. But now a program isn't sure what to think. Was the COMLEX score a fluke? The USMLE score? Who knows. I'm not going to take a risk on the bad score being a fluke.

Scenario 3: you take both, do poorly on COMLEX and well on the USMLE
As above, I'm not sure what to make of this. Which one of the scores is the fluke? I don't know. I'm setting your application aside.

Scenario 4: you take both, do poorly on both
Money wasted. Track record proven.

So... what I always recommend is take the COMLEX (because you're going to need it to graduate), and if you know you're going to apply to programs that will not accept the COMLEX, then assess the risk of taking the USMLE and decide then.

This is actually horrible advice for many fields. If you're going into FM, peds, psych, or PMR, you can afford to take only the COMLEX. If you're applying to anything else (even IM at an academic center), you're much better off taking the USMLE IF you can do well on it. Contrary to this post, many ACGME residency programs (esp the competitive ones) want a USMLE score. If you do well on it, you're likely to get twice as many interviews.
 
This is actually horrible advice for many fields. If you're going into FM, peds, psych, or PMR, you can afford to take only the COMLEX. If you're applying to anything else (even IM at an academic center), you're much better off taking the USMLE IF you can do well on it. Contrary to this post, many ACGME residency programs (esp the competitive ones) want a USMLE score. If you do well on it, you're likely to get twice as many interviews.

And for that matter I know of a few AOA programs (in urology and EM) that flat out asked for my USMLE score in the interview and others that "strongly suggested" that everyone send in their USMLE score report manually to the program (since ERAS disabled the ability to send AOA programs your usmle this year).

As a matter of fact, I only know of one AOA program in the two fields that I interviewed in that did NOT directly ask for my USMLE score.
 
If you're talking about taking USMLE Step 3 as a DO, I HIGHLY doubt any DO's do this. Why? Because as a pre-requisite to even register to take USMLE Step 3, you have to have taken and passed USMLE Step 2 CS.

While I'm sure there are exceptions, I have never heard of any DO's taken both the COMLEX-PE and the USMLE equivalent, the CS.
 
This is actually horrible advice for many fields.

Horrible advice?
It's advice... nothing more or less. And it's an opinion, nothing more or less.
Very few people are presenting their comments in the form of results from a randomized controlled trial. Anything said by anyone on here should be construed as a personal opinion.

you're much better off taking the USMLE IF you can do well on it.

If a program requires it then yes, you're stuck and you have to take it. If it's not required then, as I said (but I will now restate in different words), you are gambling. If you do well, fine, but the program didn't need that score in the first place. If you take it and do badly on it, now you've just shot yourself in the foot.

Contrary to this post, many ACGME residency programs (esp the competitive ones) want a USMLE score. If you do well on it, you're likely to get twice as many interviews.
{Citation needed}

While this may be a widely held belief from the med-student side of the table, it is not as prevalent a view from the program side of the table
 
If you're talking about taking USMLE Step 3 as a DO, I HIGHLY doubt any DO's do this. Why? Because as a pre-requisite to even register to take USMLE Step 3, you have to have taken and passed USMLE Step 2 CS.

While I'm sure there are exceptions, I have never heard of any DO's taken both the COMLEX-PE and the USMLE equivalent, the CS.

I was referring to step one and two as far as my comment quoted. Programs won't ask for step or level three because no student had them done at that point.

On the other hand I do know of a small number of people who do both parts of step 2 and three, but that's a very rare program request and it has, from my anecdotes, only been asked of accepted candidates when a program is being weird and wants everyone to do the full step sequence for residency graduation, never as a requirement for application.
 
Yes they would (see scenario 3)

Here's the quandary that always comes up when DO students take both exams.

Scenario 1: you take both and do well on both.
Great, you've shown you know the information. So why did you take the second exam? Most programs only need one; the frequency of programs that insist on the USMLE is small (but not 0). Unless you're planning on applying to programs that insist on both, just take one of them.

Scenario 2: you take both, do well on COMLEX and poorly on the USMLE
Congrats, you've reinforced the impression that DOs can't hack it in the MD world to anyone who believes that sort of nonsense. But now a program isn't sure what to think. Was the COMLEX score a fluke? The USMLE score? Who knows. I'm not going to take a risk on the bad score being a fluke.

Scenario 3: you take both, do poorly on COMLEX and well on the USMLE
As above, I'm not sure what to make of this. Which one of the scores is the fluke? I don't know. I'm setting your application aside.

Scenario 4: you take both, do poorly on both
Money wasted. Track record proven.

So... what I always recommend is take the COMLEX (because you're going to need it to graduate), and if you know you're going to apply to programs that will not accept the COMLEX, then assess the risk of taking the USMLE and decide then.

Terrible advice. 98% of decent programs want a USMLE step 1 score. Many programs would like to see a USMLE step 2 score too if possible. COMLEX matters nil to them. Best way to ruin your dreams in this day and age? Skip USMLE step 1.
 
Terrible advice. 98% of decent programs want a USMLE step 1 score. Many programs would like to see a USMLE step 2 score too if possible. COMLEX matters nil to them. Best way to ruin your dreams in this day and age? Skip USMLE step 1.

Which subject on the USLME do you think most students struggle with? Thanks
 
Horrible advice?

Yes, horrible advice.

It's advice... nothing more or less. And it's an opinion, nothing more or less.

Just because it's advice doesn't mean it's not horrible.

If a program requires it then yes, you're stuck and you have to take it. If it's not required then, as I said (but I will now restate in different words), you are gambling. If you do well, fine, but the program didn't need that score in the first place. If you take it and do badly on it, now you've just shot yourself in the foot

No one said otherwise. However, telling people "if the program requires it..." is a huge problem because 99% of med students will not have done program-specific research at the end of second year (the time when most would take the USMLE). A lot of them don't even know which field they're going into yet. I would say that if you haven't ruled all fields except FM, psych, peds, PMR, and maybe neuro, then take the USMLE IF you can do well on it. Take plenty of practice tests and make sure your score is above average before you sit for the real thing.

While this may be a widely held belief from the med-student side of the table, it is not as prevalent a view from the program side of the table

Check out the NBME's program director survey. It tells you how many care about a USMLE score in each specialty. And by the way, it's not a "belief" when it comes from someone who's been through the match process. At that point, it becomes reality based on experience.

Terrible advice. 98% of decent programs want a USMLE step 1 score.

I wouldn't go that far, unless you're talking about a competitive specialty. I wouldn't say 98%, but certainly 50% in the less competitive specialties.

Which subject on the USLME do you think most students struggle with? Thanks

Depends on the student. A lot of my classmates struggled with biochem.
 
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If a program requires it then yes, you're stuck and you have to take it. If it's not required then, as I said (but I will now restate in different words), you are gambling. If you do well, fine, but the program didn't need that score in the first place. If you take it and do badly on it, now you've just shot yourself in the foot.

This is absolutely not correct, but you're military (where the two exams are apparently considered equal) so I'll spot you that.

If you apply to my academic (upper middle tier) ACGME IM program without a USMLE score, you will not be getting an interview. This is not at all unusual among even mid-tier academic ACGME IM programs. They want a USMLE score. Period. The portion of these programs that will take a COMLEX score is in fact in the minority.
 
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This is absolutely not correct, but you're military (where the two exams are apparently considered equal) so I'll spot you that.

If you apply to my academic (upper middle tier) ACGME IM program without a USMLE score, you will not be getting an interview. This is not at all unusual among even mid-tier academic ACGME IM programs. They want a USMLE score. Period. The portion of these programs that will take a COMLEX score is in fact in the minority.

What about just having a step 2 score? Is that enough for an interview?
 
What about just having a step 2 score? Is that enough for an interview?

I can't answer for that particular program, but I can tell you that a few of my classmates who didn't take Step 1 ended up taking Step 2. Some programs WILL accept a Step 2 score in lieu of Step 1, given their experience, but they still think they would have been more competitive had they taken Step 1 or both.
 
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This is absolutely not correct, but you're military (where the two exams are apparently considered equal) so I'll spot you that.

Well that's something

dozitgetchahi said:
If you apply to my academic (upper middle tier) ACGME IM program without a USMLE score, you will not be getting an interview. This is not at all unusual among even mid-tier academic ACGME IM programs. They want a USMLE score. Period. The portion of these programs that will take a COMLEX score is in fact in the minority.

If you say so. I can only speak to EM programs... I don't do applicant reviews for any IM programs. In addition to the ACGME military program I am currently at, this was not the case at the civilian ACGME program I was at before.

<shrug>

I'm not going to continue to argue my position; to do so would be pointless. I stated my case, there are dissenting positions. If after doing your due dilligence you feel it is in your best interest to take the exam then do so.
 
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EM is competitive and I don't know of a single DO candidate who matched ACGME EM without taking the USMLE this year. Doctor Bob, you're at a military program, so that explains your experience. Your information about the civilian world is outdated. It is not like this in the civilian world now.
 
I'm reminded of that scene from Godfather III... every time I think I'm out, they pull me back in

EM is competitive and I don't know of a single DO candidate who matched ACGME EM without taking the USMLE this year.

I know 3 just off the top of my head. I'm not so far removed from med school that I don't still have friends making their way through the system.

Doctor Bob, you're at a military program, so that explains your experience. Your information about the civilian world is outdated. It is not like this in the civilian world now.

Back in my day... you darn kids... get off my lawn! <shakes cane>
The world has changed so much in the last 2 years since I came to the military world.

Look for one, you're not going to be able to change my opinion just as I'm not going to be able to change yours. And that's fine. Neither of us is "right" and neither of us is "wrong"; we're just both envisioning different scenarios and taking a stance based on that.

But we're not actually making wildly different arguments. The differences in what we're both suggesting are filled with "ifs".
If I understand your position right you're saying if you are applying to a non-competitive specialty and if you are going to do well on it, then take the USMLE. That's fine, I agree with that.
My position is if you don't need to take the exam (based on whatever your circumstances), then don't take it because it's not worth the gamble.
 
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Your position came with an inaccurate and potentially harmful tidbit of information. You said that the number of programs that require the USMLE is small. This is just not true, unless you're going for FM. And yes, the civilian world must have changed substantially since you were last with us since you're giving such wrong information.
 
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EM is competitive and I don't know of a single DO candidate who matched ACGME EM without taking the
USMLE this year. Doctor Bob, you're at a military program, so that explains your experience. Your information about the civilian world is outdated. It is not like this in the civilian world now.

I can't really make any statements about this year but I matched it was only with comlex at an allopathic program (graduated 2012). My assumption would be that with more DO friendly programs this may still be possible.
 
I can't really make any statements about this year but I matched it was only with comlex at an allopathic program (graduated 2012). My assumption would be that with more DO friendly programs this may still be possible.

No one said there weren't friendly DO programs out there. What we're saying is that advising people not to take the USMLE because only a small number of programs want it is plain inaccurate.
 
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This should be a warning for those candidates going into osteopathic residencies. How do those programs emphasize and teach osteopathic principles during residency. Run away if they blow it off,,,
 
This should be a warning for those candidates going into osteopathic residencies. How do those programs emphasize and teach osteopathic principles during residency. Run away if they blow it off,,,

Why?
 
Hey guys,
I just took step 2 last week, and I am a 4th year med student. I was thinking about doing my step 3 soon... Possibly before christmas because I might need it for VISA reasons. Is that a good idea? And, is studying out of mtb and questions enough?

Btw, Is the format like step 1 and 2?
 
Hey guys,
I just took step 2 last week, and I am a 4th year med student. I was thinking about doing my step 3 soon... Possibly before christmas because I might need it for VISA reasons. Is that a good idea? And, is studying out of mtb and questions enough?

Btw, Is the format like step 1 and 2?

Have to have graduated before taking step 3
 
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