Compilation of top residency programs

Discussion in 'Allopathic' started by chronicidal, 04.22.12.

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  1. chronicidal

    chronicidal Scrub 5+ Year Member

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    I dug through specialty forums for a long time and compiled a list of the very top residency programs. These are not based on any objective criteria, but rather what people report to have a strong national reputation for quality clinical training, mentors who are leaders in the field, research, placements into fellowships, not being malignant, attracting competitive applicants, etc.

    NB: These lists are (mostly but not all) academics focused rather than clinical-only or community programs. Many of lists are very roughly rank ordered, as in there were many disagreements. These are not consensus lists, but what many people tended to agree on as the top of the tiers. Programs listed on the same line are considered equal. Some of them may have changed with time (faculty leave, program restructures). I'm not claiming these should be used to make personal rank lists or evaluate school match lists, but they could offer a useful starting place.

    Any strong revisions?

    Anesthesiology
    Hopkins, MGH, UCSF
    BWH, Stanford, Columbia, Duke
    And many others (Penn, Wash U, Michigan, U Washington, UAB, Mayo, Cornell, Wake Forest, UCLA, UVA)

    Dermatology
    Penn, UCSF, NYU; Harvard, Stanford
    Yale, Columbia, Michigan

    Emergency Medicine
    Indiana, Cincinnati, Denver, Hennepin, Carolinas, Pitt, Highland
    Chrisitiana, Vanderbilt, UCLA-Harbor, UCSD, Cook County

    ENT
    Hopkins
    MEEI, Pitt, U Washington, Iowa, Michigan
    Vanderbilt, Wash U, Mayo, UNC, Baylor

    General Surgery
    MGH, Hopkins
    Penn, Duke, BWH, Wash U, UCSF, Michigan, U Washington
    Pitt, Columbia, UCLA, Stanford, Vanderbilt, Cornell

    Internal medicine
    Hopkins, MGH, BWH, UCSF (big four)
    U Penn, Columbia, Duke, U Michigan, Wash U, Stanford, U Washington
    And many others (UCLA, U Chicago, UTSW, BIDMC, Cornell, Mayo, Mt Sinai, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Yale, Pitt)

    Neurology
    Partners (MGH/BWH), UCSF; Hopkins, Columbia, Penn
    WashU, Mayo, UCLA, BIDMC, Stanford

    Neurosurgery
    MGH, Columbia, Hopkins, UCSF, Mayo, Barrow Neurological Institute (though not academic)
    BWH, Cleveland Clinic, U Washington, Wash U, Penn, UVA, Stanford, Baylor, Pitt, USC

    Ob/Gyn
    BWH, UCSF
    Pitt/Magee, Northwestern, UTSW/Parkland

    Ophthalmology
    Bascom Palmer/Miami, Wilmer/Hopkins, Wills/Jefferson
    MEEI/Harvard, Jules Stein/UCLA, Iowa
    Duke, Beckman/UCSF

    Orthopedic Surgery
    HSS, Mayo, Harvard
    Jefferson, Wash U, Iowa
    NYU-HJD, Pitt, Rush, Cleveland Clinic, U Washington, Duke, Penn, UCSF

    Pathology
    BWH, Hopkins, UCSF, Stanford
    MGH, Penn, UVA, Duke, Wash U, U Chicago, U Washington

    Radiology
    MIR/WashU, MGH, UCSF, Penn
    Hopkins, Duke, Michigan, BWH

    Pediatrics
    CHOP, Hopkins, Boston Children’s
    UC Denver/Children’s Colorado, Baylor/Texas Children’s, Cincinnati Children’s
    Case Western/Rainbow Babies, UTSW, CHLA, Chicago Children’s, U Washington/Seattle Children’s, Pitt, DC Children’s National
    And many others (Columbia, Cornell, Yale, Children’s Mercy in Kansas, Arkansas, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Utah, Emory, Indiana, Ohio State, UCSF, Stanford, U Michigan)

    Plastic Surgery - Integrated
    Penn, Pitt, NYU, Harvard, U Washington, UTSW, Hopkins/UMD, U Michigan
    Wash U, Baylor, Northwestern, UCSF

    PM&R
    RIC/Northwestern, TIRR/Baylor, Mayo, U Washington, Kessler/UMDNJ, Spaulding/Harvard

    Psychiatry
    MGH/Mclean, Columbia
    Cornell, UCSF, UCLA, Yale
    Wash U, Hopkins, Pitt, Stanford, NYU, Penn, Harvard Longwood, Cambridge Health Alliance

    Radiation Oncology
    MD Anderson, Memorial Sloan-Kettering, Harvard
    Stanford, UCSF, U Chicago, U Michigan, Penn, Wash U, Yale, Duke, Wisconsin, Hopkins

    Urology
    Hopkins, Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, UCSF, Vanderbilt, U Michigan
    Penn, Columbia, BWH, Baylor, Duke
    UCLA, Northwestern, Cornell, UTSW, Emory, Pitt, Wash U
     
    Last edited: 04.03.14
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  3. jdh71

    jdh71 epiphany at nine thousand six hundred feet 7+ Year Member

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    looks about right for the general gestalt and consensus with regards to IM

    we've done ranking to death over in the IM forum, to the point that when anyone brings it up we start laughing about it, but what you've got there are the names that come up on everyone's list and the top 4 are kind of the top 4 on everyone's list
     
  4. KinasePro

    KinasePro Das it mane 5+ Year Member

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    I think this thread will get a lot of haters in a short amount of time, but I'll play along.

    Top Academic: HSS, Harvard, Mayo, UW, NYU-HJD, Iowa, WashU, Pitt, Rush, Jefferson
    Top Clinical Training: Brown, Emory, Carolinas, Utah, Campbell Clinic (UTHSC), Rochester, Vanderbilt, UCSF, Wisconsin, UPenn
    [Notice the omission of cleveland clinic and duke. ]

    These lists are consistent with what I've heard from 4th yrs. All of these programs are very competitive to match into.

    further discussion/pissing contest here: http://www.orthogate.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4232
     
  5. dr zaius

    dr zaius 7+ Year Member

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    I thought I had heard UAB had a top IM program. Your thoughts?
     
  6. jdh71

    jdh71 epiphany at nine thousand six hundred feet 7+ Year Member

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    They do. Great program. Awesome tradition. Excellent clinical training. Hard to go there and not be impressed (I was). UAB's "big problem" is being in Birmingham. It's hard to recruit there. Folks from the south shrug - whatever. But you can't get the costal boys to give them serious consideration.

    The list above BTW is a very short list, lots of other awesome IM programs that didn't get posted.
     
  7. KinasePro

    KinasePro Das it mane 5+ Year Member

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    Should add Emory.

    Add UC Denver.
     
  8. BigRedBeta

    BigRedBeta Why am I in a handbasket? 7+ Year Member

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    I don't have much insight into most specialties, but looking at your lists, you have a HEAVY East Coast Bias to your lists. That's the major problem with the list overall across all specialties.

    I can only speak with knowledge about Peds, but your list is, in my opinion, completely off base. Particularly, leaving off Texas Children's (Baylor), Denver and Cincinnati while including Cornell and Columbia are egregious errors. Yale is not on the same level as the others and should not be listed. And the "many others" list you failed to include for peds should include places like UTSW, Children's Mercy in Kansas City, Arkansas, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Utah, Seattle (UDub), Emory, Indiana, and Ohio State among others.

    I'd argue that in many fields, many off the radar locations are ridiculously strong in particular sub-specialties, which can have a sizable impact on fellowship chances. One of my favorite facts is that Arkansas Children's Hospital did more pediatric heart transplants than any other hospital in the country in 2011. If you're interested in peds cardiology or peds critical care that might be a huge draw and that sort of reputation will help with fellowship matching.
     
    Last edited: 04.23.12
  9. dr zaius

    dr zaius 7+ Year Member

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    Ahh, thanks. I guess to us country bumpkins Birmingham might as well be NYC. Sure felt that way when I moved there. I plan on trying to move back after my mil obligation.
     
  10. Slack3r

    Slack3r Sicker than your average Gold Donor 7+ Year Member

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    Ya also thought it strange you left off Cinci for peds.
     
  11. bad virus

    bad virus 7+ Year Member

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    You left off the following for Emergency medicine:

    King's County, UNM, Maricopa, UofA, UofM and the grand daddy of the county programs: USC-LAC
     
  12. Phenytoin

    Phenytoin 2+ Year Member

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    I'd put Jeff and WashU in top clinical and Brown, Rochester and UPenn in academic
     
  13. drizzt3117

    drizzt3117 chick magnet 7+ Year Member

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    I'd add Wisconsin here, first anesthesia residency program and very competitive.

    Would add UCLA to this.

    Would add Harvard/BWH and maybe NYU to the academic programs.

    I would add Yale and UVA to at least the 2nd tier.

    I would add Emory and UCLA and probably drop Stanford from the list.

    Would add Wash U.

    UCSF should be here.

    Would add UCLA and maybe USC.

    Mayo should be on this list.

    Should add UCLA, Washington, NYU, and Stanford to the second group.

    Cincinnati, Rainbow Babies, UTSW, CHLA, Chicago Childrens', and Seattle Childrens aren't on this list, I'm not sure I'd have any of the schools in the second tier listed at at all instead of these.

    UCLA and Stanford?

    No MGH on the urology rankings? I would probably have BWH and MGH in the first tier and Vandy and Michigan in the second tier. I know people are concerned about the chairman change at BWH but it's definitely the most operative urology program.
     
    Last edited: 04.23.12
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  14. JackShephard MD

    JackShephard MD

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    Good thread. I've always been interested in someone compiling something better than the US News rankings, which also omit a lot of specialties.

    :thumbup:
     
  15. GladifImakeit

    GladifImakeit Banned 2+ Year Member

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    It's hard for me to derive much meaning from this list without better understanding your ranking system. A lot of it seems rather vague or highly susceptible to subjective bias. Some thoughts: 1) who is a competitive applicant and how do you know where they go 2) how do you determine if a program is malignant 3) how do you know which mentors are considered leaders 4) regarding research, is it dollars, # pubs, impact 5) how do you determine quality of training and 6) is national reputation fair to programs that aren't such "big name" places?

    I suggest you spell out in detail how you derived these rankings. Also, you might want to find and include objective data, such as specialty boards pass rates, number who go onto academic careers, or even survey data of resident satisfaction. "What people report" is too vague for me to impute much meaning. Who are these people? Are they anonymous posters online or chairs of departments? How many are there? Were they asked specifically to offer an opinion or are you just speculating from prior statements?

    Finally, these rankings, as is well established, say little as to what the best program for any given individual is. Nonetheless, I think what you're doing is a good idea and thank you for the dedication.
     
    Last edited: 04.23.12
  16. sirenomelia

    sirenomelia Banned

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    Hopkins is a great place to train if you like standing aside as a PGY5 and holding hooks while the chief and 18 fellows battle for carotids and fem-pops; they were on probabtion in the recent past because their trainees were so technically inept but watever. You also seem obsessed with duke on most your lists for no real merit. CH is as good or better in most things and will actually see a patient even if they dont carry AAAA* premium insurance.
     
  17. MeatTornado

    MeatTornado 7+ Year Member

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    if you can't derive any meaning from these lists then just move on to another thread. OP clearly said that these are just a compilation of opinions found on SDN without any objective data whatsoever. most/all of the data you are talking about is most likely not available.
     
  18. chronicidal

    chronicidal Scrub 5+ Year Member

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    These are anonymous posters online in specialty forums on SDN, orthogate, uncleharvey, urologymatch, otolaryngologyresidencyapplicants.yuku. Also the Ophthalmology Times survey of program directors.

    In some cases these people claim to be reporting a list they received from their chair or advisor who is in the field. Most cases they say it is their gestalt after talking to people on the interview trail, meeting residents, doing their own research, or talking to faculty.

    I can't give you a number, but I included programs on this list only if several posters listed it as a top tier program.

    Usually someone started a thread specifically asking what the rankings in a specialty are, or what are the elite programs, or what are the top tier programs, what are the highest quality programs, what have the best reputation, etc.
     
  19. Rendar5

    Rendar5 10+ Year Member

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    honestly, I wouldn't even put a list for EM up there. when the "top list" gets to be over 30 long (which it easily could), you start to realize that in EM there isn't really a top program, just programs that originated the field and programs with a large number of nationally-recognized speakers.
     
  20. drizzt3117

    drizzt3117 chick magnet 7+ Year Member

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    I think EM is a tough specialty to evaluate because you start getting into relationship between trauma surgery and the emergency department, facilities, indigenous patient population, etc. Obviously the ED at the Brigham and that at LAC-USC or Grady will see drastically different patient populations, with far more Farber patients with complications of malignancy in the former group and far more trauma in the latter two. There's also a divide of programs between ones that are 3 years and ones that are 4 years...
     
  21. JackShephard MD

    JackShephard MD

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    Would you like to make suggestions for the General Surgery list then?


    Good point. Some hospitals don't let EM do anything, while others have EM covering all types of procedures.
     
  22. username456789

    username456789 SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor 7+ Year Member

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    I was under the impression that Penn/Scheie was a top Ophtho program.
     
  23. Hemichordate

    Hemichordate Peds 7+ Year Member

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    Well, not top enough to be included in chronicdal's list.
     
  24. sirenomelia

    sirenomelia Banned

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  25. SlickNickMD

    SlickNickMD 7+ Year Member

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    The top ortho program is whichever one that takes me:rolleyes:
     
  26. Phyozo

    Phyozo 7+ Year Member

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    No love for Stanford internal med, Drizzt? =)
     
  27. chronicidal

    chronicidal Scrub 5+ Year Member

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    Are you referring to neurosurgery or to IM?

    Yea UCLA came up often but it has a traditional 2yr-post-GS program rather than an integrated program so it didn't feel right putting it with the rest.
     
  28. drizzt3117

    drizzt3117 chick magnet 7+ Year Member

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    Neurosurg. Stanford has really low volume. It has good research and Steinberg and a few other people are top notch, but as a training program, I think places like USC are better. Ucla has the reputation of being a little malignant and Martin isn't the most charismatic chairman but they are very good, especially at endovascular.

    Ucla has its own brand new orthopedic hospital right by the ocean. It has the nicest facilities of any program in the country.
     
  29. mmmcdowe

    mmmcdowe Duke of minimal vowels Gold Donor SDN Moderator 7+ Year Member

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    Columbia doesn't make top ten for optho, ENT, AND ortho? Optho is especially surprising to me given the Columbia-Cornell powerhouse dual residency that it is. And NYU isn't in the top rads?
    Agree that Stanford isn't all that good for neurosurg except for non-clinical academia. Maybe this was just me, but I was under the impression that Penn > MGH.
     
    Last edited: 04.23.12
  30. chronicidal

    chronicidal Scrub 5+ Year Member

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    Oops I meant the part for plastic surgery.
     
  31. chronicidal

    chronicidal Scrub 5+ Year Member

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  32. medicsb

    medicsb 7+ Year Member

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    It'd probably be easier to compile a list of bad programs - if people were to talk about them; otherwise, the list of top programs will be LONG (E.g. I'd add Temple University to the top programs list).
     
  33. KinasePro

    KinasePro Das it mane 5+ Year Member

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    I've heard operative experience is poor, orthogate residency reviews also mention this.

    That said, if you plan to do a fellowship anyway and enjoy research, I'm sure the program is great.
     
  34. Mortal_Lessons

    Mortal_Lessons H.Perowne 10+ Year Member

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    As someone who matched in neurosurgery and interviewed at all three places, I would argue that Stanford not only is an academic powerhouse but that its clinical volume is on par with East Coast programs but doesn't compare to UCSF. However, there's no way Penn is better than MGH, either clinically or academically; Jefferson is much stronger than Penn clinically.
     
  35. Skinceutical

    Skinceutical

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    UCLA doesn't belong on the list.

    Yale should probably move up to the first tier.
    Stanford should probably be in the second tier, and should definitely be joined by Mayo Rochester, Miami, and Emory. You could probably make a case for including UT Southwestern and Northwestern as well.
     
  36. drizzt3117

    drizzt3117 chick magnet 7+ Year Member

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    I mean, it's not one of the original UH big six, but this stuff is all tough because the programs are so different. HMS, Hopkins, and Columbia all have relatively low operative experience compared to Mayo, Barrow, NW, and USC, but academically are extremely strong. My friends tell me if there's a "best" program, it's probably UCSF, but then again, it just depends what you want. It has good clinical training and research, but HMS/JHU probably has better research and BNI/Mayo/NW are probably better clinically. When programs are small and so different, it's really about what an individual applicant is looking for.
     
  37. drizzt3117

    drizzt3117 chick magnet 7+ Year Member

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    I mean, I suppose one could say Stanford's gross volume is comparable to Columbia/MGH/Hopkins, but i'm not sure the complex volume is quite as high as MGH. Certainly it has lower volume than BNI, Mayo, CCF, USC, UCSF, etc.
     
  38. pinarello

    pinarello

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    Agreed on the additions by BigRed. However, I think it's worth subdiving the categories into those that are clinically strong, academically strong, and both clinically and academically strong.

    This is my attempt at sorting things, which I'm sure will get some push-back:

    Clinically+Academically:
    CHOP, Boston Childrens, UMichigan, Utah, UWashington (Seattle), UColorado (Denver), Hopkins

    Clinically:
    Arkansas, CHLA, Texas Children, UTSW, Rainbow Babies (Case Western, University Hospital)

    Academically:
    UCSF, Stanford
     
    Last edited: 04.23.12
  39. winkleweizen

    winkleweizen 5+ Year Member

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    UCSD is a top EM program? Nope
     
  40. SouthernSurgeon

    SouthernSurgeon Lifetime Donor 7+ Year Member

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    You complain about residents holding hook and fighting fellows for cases and bring up the Cleveland Clinic as a top program?

    Or about hospitals discriminating against patient's with bad insurance and bring up Mayo?
     
  41. jdh71

    jdh71 epiphany at nine thousand six hundred feet 7+ Year Member

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    I love these kind of threads
     
  42. ZagDoc

    ZagDoc Ears, Noses, and Throats 7+ Year Member

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    What distinguishes a "top tier" from a "second tier" program, honestly? What's the endpoint you are using for comparison? Most active research? Most NIH money? Most faculty in leadership positions on the national level? Most patient volume? Best patient outcomes? Board pass rates? Most name recognition from the lay public? The problem is that "top" is completely subjective.

    As other's have already said - if you are looking at compiling a list of programs where you will receive excellent training and have strong options available after residency for employment or fellowship, you list is going to be very, very long. In my field (ENT) nearly every program fits into that category (and yes, I'm training at one of the programs on 'the list' and could care less about that).

    I'd argue the the best program is the one that it is best aligned with your own personal and professional goals. Do you want to be a clinician scientist with a 50-50 practice? There's programs better suited for that. Do you just want to receive good training at a place close to family and to where you ultimately want to practice to make good professional connections? There's programs better suited for that. This whole "programs/tiers/etc" discussion just seems like a lame exercise in arguing whose **** is bigger.
     
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  43. drizzt3117

    drizzt3117 chick magnet 7+ Year Member

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    I sort of got into this with the discussion on neurosurgery; having an idea of the relative strengths and weaknesses of specific programs is important, but an actual "rank" is less so.

    Some lists on various forums in ranking programs in terms of clinical training, academic productivity, research, exposure to top faculty, etc, can potentially be useful, though.

     
  44. JackShephard MD

    JackShephard MD

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    I largely agree, although, not every field is like ENT. Just like others have mentioned, some EM programs are excellent and others are awful. Therefore, having such a list may be helpful in some instances. Yet, I agree with your overall statement. It's very individual and this can turn into an unproductive pissing match more often than not.


    agreed.
     
  45. jcu

    jcu should have been dr. who 7+ Year Member

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    Where's FM? :smuggrin:
     
  46. gasblaster

    gasblaster ASA Member 2+ Year Member

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    :laugh:
     
  47. Slack3r

    Slack3r Sicker than your average Gold Donor 7+ Year Member

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    No Jefferson for neurosurg/neurology?

    Joking aside, I'd be curious to see if there actually are programs that stick out above the rest in FM.
     
  48. mmmcdowe

    mmmcdowe Duke of minimal vowels Gold Donor SDN Moderator 7+ Year Member

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  49. mmmcdowe

    mmmcdowe Duke of minimal vowels Gold Donor SDN Moderator 7+ Year Member

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    That's very interesting and demonstrates the departmetal bias that shapes my opinin
     
  50. NickNaylor

    NickNaylor Daisy the Dog Lifetime Donor 7+ Year Member

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    Jeez, man, you haven't even started medical school yet and you're already doing all of this? It's good information, but this isn't the kind of crap you should be worrying about. Hell most second years don't even care about this at that point in the game. I appreciate the effort, but relax.
     
  51. sirenomelia

    sirenomelia Banned

    Joined:
    08.30.10
    Messages:
    439
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Verified
    Physician
    The CL clinic trained colleagues ive worked with have been great.
    Mayo is actually an elite referral center; dook is not.
    Sabiston was an overated attention whore goon. I havent yet met anyone trained by him that wasnt mentally unstable, inherently or because of that experience.
     

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