Cookies, Doughnuts, Cakes, and Fakes?

[Wordead]

That...and I generally find that students who do rotations at those hospitals tend to use the "we get such great hands on experience" as a crutch to try and make themselves feel better about being at a lower ranked school. It's a defense mechanism, similar to DOs trying to say they are more holistic.

Well you're a surg resident I believe. You disagree? My surg mentors have told me to make sure I try to go to a program with a VA or county hospital because you have more autonomy and higher case loads.

I don't really think it makes any difference as a med student. I didn't know Cook had such a poor reputation though; what I've heard is just hearsay that it was a great place to to residency.

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[SouthernSurgeon]

Well you're a surg resident I believe. You disagree? My surg mentors have told me to make sure I try to go to a program with a VA or county hospital because you have more autonomy and higher case loads.

I don't really think it makes any difference as a med student. I didn't know Cook had such a poor reputation though; what I've heard is just hearsay that it was a great place to to residency.

I think it's a rather hollow truism that one type of institution automatically gives superior training. I do think that VAs and public hospitals in general give more autonomy, largely due to the fact that they are chronically understaffed. And along with that understaffing comes a consequent increase in non-educational scutwork. The year I was interviewing, Emory in particular (which always highlights the Grady training experience) had just been cited by the ACGME for an "inappropriate service to education ratio" and the residents told us all the night before that the hospital was "hellish".

That said...I love our VA. And when I was interviewing, I wanted a balance between the different types of hospitals so I ended up ranking highly places that had a big quaternary referral center and some exposure to community/VA practice.

I also was speaking more to med students in my prior post. I just frequently see this logic cited among pre-meds that they are going to get amazing clinical experience because there will be no residents around or because they are spending time at the local knife and gun club. And yet, I've worked with a lot of students, from all types of institutions (since they come to us for away rotations as M4s). I've yet to see this magical Navy Seal-esque med student who is a clinical badass because they rotated at Cook County (or wherever). I think in particular for medical students, getting thrown to the wolves with minimal supervision is not a guaranteed recipe for success. It might make you really good at drawing blood or wheeling patients to radiology...but I'm not sure that's what a med student needs at that point in their clinical training.

 

[DermViser]

I think it's a rather hollow truism that one type of institution automatically gives superior training. I do think that VAs and public hospitals in general give more autonomy, largely due to the fact that they are chronically understaffed. And along with that understaffing comes a consequent increase in non-educational scutwork. The year I was interviewing, Emory in particular (which always highlights the Grady training experience) had just been cited by the ACGME for an "inappropriate service to education ratio" and the residents told us all the night before that the hospital was "hellish".

That said...I love our VA. And when I was interviewing, I wanted a balance between the different types of hospitals so I ended up ranking highly places that had a big quaternary referral center and some exposure to community/VA practice.

I also was speaking more to med students in my prior post. I just frequently see this logic cited among pre-meds that they are going to get amazing clinical experience because there will be no residents around or because they are spending time at the local knife and gun club. And yet, I've worked with a lot of students, from all types of institutions (since they come to us for away rotations as M4s). I've yet to see this magical Navy Seal-esque med student who is a clinical badass because they rotated at Cook County (or wherever). I think in particular for medical students, getting thrown to the wolves with minimal supervision is not a guaranteed recipe for success. It might make you really good at drawing blood or wheeling patients to radiology...but I'm not sure that's what a med student needs at that point in their clinical training.

Yup, getting to do more stuff and hands on experience, more seems to be a byproduct of chronic understaffing, rather than something purposefully done.

 

[VisionaryTics]

Well you're a surg resident I believe. You disagree? My surg mentors have told me to make sure I try to go to a program with a VA or county hospital because you have more autonomy and higher case loads.

I don't really think it makes any difference as a med student. I didn't know Cook had such a poor reputation though; what I've heard is just hearsay that it was a great place to to residency.

I always heard the same re: "Have a VA or county."

Fwiw, actually having rotated through Stroger and talked with residents from different surgery residencies at my med school who operate there, yeah it's supposed to be a scutty ****show, but everyone valued the experience a lot. They were the same people who said "Make sure you match somewhere with a place like County."

Also, I don't think its fair to characterize all the hospitals that have med students from different med schools as crappy, as @DermViser said.

I did rotations at County, the Jesse Brown VA, Christ, and Illinois Masonic where I was with other students. All were great educational experiences as a student and 2/4 are some of the best hospitals in Chicago.

 

[DermViser]

I always heard the same re: "Have a VA or county."

Fwiw, actually having rotated through Stroger and talked with residents from different surgery residencies at my med school who operate there, yeah it's supposed to be a scutty ****show, but everyone valued the experience a lot. They were the same people who said "Make sure you match somewhere with a place like County."

Also, I don't think its fair to characterize all the hospitals that have med students from different med schools as crappy, as @DermViser said.

I did rotations at County, the Jesse Brown VA, Christ, and Illinois Masonic where I was with other students. All were great educational experiences as a student and 2/4 are some of the best hospitals in Chicago.

If you notice, the crappy hospitals who are understaffed are ones in which AMG residents stay away from. It's one thing to be there as a med student another thing to be there as a resident. See the Cook County IM thread.

 

[Nasrudin]

I'd say an intangible benefit of rotating through hostile county like facilities is just that you know what they're like. And your expectations for rational work flow are appropriately nonexistent.

 

[DermViser]

I'd say an intangible benefit of rotating through hostile county like facilities is just that you know what they're like. And your expectations for rational work flow are appropriately nonexistent.

Also to get an accurate view of what Chinese sweat shop labor looks like.

 

[Nasrudin]

Also to get an accurate view of what Chinese sweat shop labor looks like.

True that sir! I was on the look out for resident morale on my interview trail precisely for that reason.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

If you notice, the crappy hospitals who are understaffed are ones in which AMG residents stay away from. It's one thing to be there as a med student another thing to be there as a resident. See the Cook County IM thread.

One of the Emory residents told us at the night before dinner about "dot days" at Grady. Apparently on certain days of the week the general surgery call is taken by residents/staff from another, less academic programs in Atlanta that notoriously fills with FMGs. He thought the moniker was hilarious; the several Indian students at the dinners jaws all dropped

 

[DermViser]

One of the Emory residents told us at the night before dinner about "dot days" at Grady. Apparently on certain days of the week the general surgery call is taken by residents/staff from another, less academic programs in Atlanta that notoriously fills with FMGs. He thought the moniker was hilarious; the several Indian students at the dinners jaws all dropped

And he thought it was absolutely hilarious to mention it even in front of AMG applicants of Indian ethnicity. Yup, and they say racism is over.

 

[Anastomoses]

One of the Emory residents told us at the night before dinner about "dot days" at Grady. Apparently on certain days of the week the general surgery call is taken by residents/staff from another, less academic programs in Atlanta that notoriously fills with FMGs. He thought the moniker was hilarious; the several Indian students at the dinners jaws all dropped

I'm not Indian and that would have made my jaw drop.

 

[Top Gun]

And he thought it was absolutely hilarious to mention it even in front of AMG applicants of Indian ethnicity. Yup, and they say racism is over.

That would have been a great way to get me to NOT rank that program.

 

[Brain Bucket]

One of the Emory residents told us at the night before dinner about "dot days" at Grady. Apparently on certain days of the week the general surgery call is taken by residents/staff from another, less academic programs in Atlanta that notoriously fills with FMGs. He thought the moniker was hilarious; the several Indian students at the dinners jaws all dropped

Totally fine with it, so long as they don't mind reciprocity.

 

[evilbooyaa]

One of the Emory residents told us at the night before dinner about "dot days" at Grady. Apparently on certain days of the week the general surgery call is taken by residents/staff from another, less academic programs in Atlanta that notoriously fills with FMGs. He thought the moniker was hilarious; the several Indian students at the dinners jaws all dropped

While that is pretty funny, it isn't something I would tell potential residency applicants.