Army Cost to resign commission

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turkish

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In relation to my previous thread about being forced into a brigade surgeon spot, I found out today that they've let people resign their commission for this reason (skill atrophy causing inability to practice in the field/training for which you owe time).

Does anyone know the formula they use to calculate the money you would owe if you get out early?

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Less than the cost of being a brigade surgeon. I would be very interested in knowing what you find out.
 
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As am I. I'm intrigued, but skeptical.

Agreed. I highly doubt this is even a legitimate recourse for a disgruntled Brigade Surgeon. I had a COL from HRC in Fort Knox come to my MTF last year to give a positive spin on the benefits of operational medicine. He said with a straight face that a military medicine's primary focus is operational support. In the 90s the military seriously considered getting rid of MEDCOM. They looked at farming out all work to the local economy. However, they realized they would always have a need for AD military physicians to deploy and support line units. Not many civilian physicans would be willing to put up with the joys of deployment or working as a brigade/battalion physician.
 
Simple formula for four years of HPSP is that you take the total scholarship amount spent, divided into the number of days of ADSO to come up with a per-day dollar figure. Then subtract the number of ADSO days paid back leaving X amount of days still owed at X amount of dollars per day.

Scholarship (tuition, fees, books and stipend) = ~$250k
Four year scholarship is 365 days X 4 = 1460 days
250K divided by 1460 = ~$171.25 per day spent

Now, if after training, you have paid back say exactly two years of ADSO, you still owe 730 days, but you have burned $125K worth of paid entitlements. So, 730 days multiplied by the 171.25 owed will equal approximately the 125K still owed in entitlements. Again, this is an over simplification. There are always odd days. It is never exactly one or two years it is always one year, two months and 13 days or some such, not to mention you are paying back time until the date on your separation order.

We must also consider GMO or F/S time before residency as payback, and the number of days owed is reduced accordingly. If you add in Service Academy time, or ROTC it will change the formula. The first obligation incurred is the first paid back. So, if after training, you owe for Service Academy or ROTC, that obligation must be considered before the HPSP obligation/money.

The Army Auditing Agency has recently completed a study concerning the recoupment of funds for ROTC, USMA and HPSP, I am assuming that ROTC and USMA were able to provide some sort of a per day dollar figure. On the other hand, the only thing I’ve ever seen from USUHS is a very old article in Time Magazine that basically states the cost of attending is some sort of secret.

http://nation.time.com/2012/06/22/usuhs-no-wonder-some-pronounce-it-useless/
 
Simple formula for four years of HPSP is that you take the total scholarship amount spent, divided into the number of days of ADSO to come up with a per-day dollar figure. Then subtract the number of ADSO days paid back leaving X amount of days still owed at X amount of dollars per day.

Scholarship (tuition, fees, books and stipend) = ~$250k
Four year scholarship is 365 days X 4 = 1460 days
250K divided by 1460 = ~$171.25 per day spent

Now, if after training, you have paid back say exactly two years of ADSO, you still owe 730 days, but you have burned $125K worth of paid entitlements. So, 730 days multiplied by the 171.25 owed will equal approximately the 125K still owed in entitlements. Again, this is an over simplification. There are always odd days. It is never exactly one or two years it is always one year, two months and 13 days or some such, not to mention you are paying back time until the date on your separation order.

We must also consider GMO or F/S time before residency as payback, and the number of days owed is reduced accordingly. If you add in Service Academy time, or ROTC it will change the formula. The first obligation incurred is the first paid back. So, if after training, you owe for Service Academy or ROTC, that obligation must be considered before the HPSP obligation/money.

The Army Auditing Agency has recently completed a study concerning the recoupment of funds for ROTC, USMA and HPSP, I am assuming that ROTC and USMA were able to provide some sort of a per day dollar figure. On the other hand, the only thing I’ve ever seen from USUHS is a very old article in Time Magazine that basically states the cost of attending is some sort of secret.

http://nation.time.com/2012/06/22/usuhs-no-wonder-some-pronounce-it-useless/

to quote spock-- "fascinating"

it can't be this simple. a couple of years ago we had a staff who was prepping for their civilian job whose hospital system offered to "buy out" the remaining time they owed. this particular instance it was navy, but it had a snowball's chance in hell from what this person said when they brought it up to their personnel folks. if this were the case every surgical subspecialist would simply resign, walk away, and repay the money owed once their income triples... and the headhunters would be running amok. so i am assuming the key point is "unable to practice." i'd be interested to know the details of turkish's contacts. if this is true at face value (i can't practice X because i am so rusty and now i'm getting out and paying my debt off) it would have the potential of derailing the whole thing. in this case, if you claim you can't practice, get out, and go to work on the civilian side doing the job you claimed you couldn't, there probably would be some very interested JAG officers paying you a visit.

details man, details! lol

--your friendly neighborhood send my repayment bill to CHOP caveman
 
In relation to my previous thread about being forced into a brigade surgeon spot, I found out today that they've let people resign their commission for this reason (skill atrophy causing inability to practice in the field/training for which you owe time).
I strongly doubt this scenario. There are always unsubstantiated rumors swirling in MEDCOM. If they did, there would be a huge exodus, and they would simply have to stop brigade surgeoning us
 
My individual situation is that I'm boarded in my specialty, and in a subspecialty category that limits where I can work (needs a supporting lab). I could potentially stay credentialed in my field of primary training, but not in the subcategory, as it's too specialized. As of the end of the brigade surgeon tour, I'll have paid back my adso for my residency, but not the fellowship. The fellowship subspecialty is what I would not be able to stay credentialed in while brig surg. This is the situation in which they've let people out.

*edited to clarify
 
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I hope it works out for you.

On a personal level, I don't understand why people choose to do specialized fellowships through the military, knowing that your new skills would be unused, misused, or ignored (a la brigade surgeon). Having said that, I am sure you did have your reasons at the time.
 
Agree with all the posts above - you are not going to be able to "buy out" of your ADSO unless incapacitated. We all were duped by this disaster of an organization. I am so disgruntled at this point that I have turned down my ETS award of an ARCOM. I feel like it is a slap in the face after serving the military for 12 years. My rater wasn't too happy but the great thing at this point is I don't give a da..! T-31 days till freedom.
 
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In relation to my previous thread about being forced into a brigade surgeon spot, I found out today that they've let people resign their commission for this reason (skill atrophy causing inability to practice in the field/training for which you owe time).

Does anyone know the formula they use to calculate the money you would owe if you get out early?

Come people let's be reasonable for a minute? Let us say that you get a free ticket out of the military due to skill atrophy. Wonderful! So, let me ask you, which civilian hospital is then going to credential you under those circumstances?
 
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to quote spock-- "fascinating"

it can't be this simple. a couple of years ago we had a staff who was prepping for their civilian job whose hospital system offered to "buy out" the remaining time they owed.

---and nobody, I mean nobody in the civilian sector hands out cash unless it is in the form a forgiveable loan.

Let us pretend for a moment that any branch agrees to cut you loose for say a $250K check and a hospital groups wants you so bad that they pay out. Before they pay out, you will agree that the money is a loan to be forgiven in exchange for your services. Now first off, it isn't going to happen! No hospital or large group will take those risks. Perhaps some might consider this if it is part of a practice start up package but then you'd be indebted for anywhere from 3 to 5 years. Okay, so maybe you would not have to wear a uniform and deploy, but you still lose your freedom. That is the key here folks. This is not about deployment, skill atrophy, this is about losing your freedom to do what you trained to do.

Suck it up! Get done! Leave on amicable terms! Then life goes forward and never look back!
 
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I remember an Air Force neurosurgeon who couldn't sit for boards because he had so few cases and asked to get out and then was gone. Whether they let him out or
he is in a secret CIA prison in Romania, not sure. Any neurosurgeons out there to comment?
 
---and nobody, I mean nobody in the civilian sector hands out cash unless it is in the form a forgiveable loan.

Let us pretend for a moment that any branch agrees to cut you loose for say a $250K check and a hospital groups wants you so bad that they pay out. Before they pay out, you will agree that the money is a loan to be forgiven in exchange for your services. Now first off, it isn't going to happen! No hospital or large group will take those risks. Perhaps some might consider this if it is part of a practice start up package but then you'd be indebted for anywhere from 3 to 5 years. Okay, so maybe you would not have to wear a uniform and deploy, but you still lose your freedom. That is the key here folks. This is not about deployment, skill atrophy, this is about losing your freedom to do what you trained to do.

Suck it up! Get done! Leave on amicable terms! Then life goes forward and never look back!

the person i was mentioning had a year left, and the hospital system wanted them badly. they trained there and had several "ins." the navy didn't even entertain the idea. i personally had a contact at a large healthcare system ask me the same thing-- if my obligation could be bought out. i saved the AMEDD from laughing at me and didn't ask about it, lol. for some people now it *is* about skill atrophy via BDE surgeon taskings. many people would take the more money and stability for 3 years in the civilian world over the uncertainty in the .mil.

the bigger issue to me is what you mentioned about being let go due to skill atrophy then getting credentialed in the civilian world to perform that atrophied skill.

Agree with all the posts above - you are not going to be able to "buy out" of your ADSO unless incapacitated. We all were duped by this disaster of an organization. I am so disgruntled at this point that I have turned down my ETS award of an ARCOM. I feel like it is a slap in the face after serving the military for 12 years. My rater wasn't too happy but the great thing at this point is I don't give a da..! T-31 days till freedom.

an ARCOM for 12 years? damn. i would have told my rater to shove it as well. most likely they missed the deadline (due to needing higher ranking people sign off) for an MSM. or they are really just that inept. a very slim potential exists that maybe you are a doofus but i give people here the benefit of the doubt and you've been here awhile and i would be shocked if that were the case, lol

--your friendly neighborhood "here's your certificate of appreciation, thanks for your service, doctor" caveman
 
Prolly could have landed that MSM with a short 2 year stint in a brigade surgeon spot. People don't think about the benefits of this thing. Imagine how much better your life would have been After the Army (AA).
 
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I remember it being explained to me very clearly: The Navy is not a lending institution. They don't want your money, they want your time.

I'm sure the same applies to the Army

27 days.
 
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Come people let's be reasonable for a minute? Let us say that you get a free ticket out of the military due to skill atrophy. Wonderful! So, let me ask you, which civilian hospital is then going to credential you under those circumstances?

None...that's the point. I'll either have to retrain or abandon the skill.

Suck it up? Keep paying back years for training in a subspecialty I can no longer practice?
 
How do you feel about your primary field as compared to your subspecialty? That is, would you be willing to practice it, at least temporarily, as a civilian? Are there any opportunities outside of the Army to regain your subspecialty's skill set?

Given the ridiculousness of the situation the Army has put you in, your best course may be to separate immediately after the BDE surgeon tour (assuming they permit it) and find a civilian job in your primary specialty just to pay the bills while rehabilitating your fellowship-level acumen.

This crap makes my blood boil. As if this whole thing isn't crazy enough already, but it just keeps getting worse as you peel back the layers. I'm sorry. If you end up staying in because it's the smart thing, then you're a better man than I, because in a similar situation I wouldn't give them a single nanosecond beyond what I had to.
 
None...that's the point. I'll either have to retrain or abandon the skill.

Suck it up? Keep paying back years for training in a subspecialty I can no longer practice?

I too was once a medical specialist that had to take off for a year as a GMO. I did not like this any more than the next guy but I survived. I was STILL able to practice my specialty after deployment. I am now out of the Army and my past with the Army is in my rear view mirror.

This will not kill you. You can sit around pouting "why me" all you want but if you do, your leadership will gladly retort, "why not you?"

I would urge to not press these issues of trying to get out. It WILL backfire on you!
 
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In relation to my previous thread about being forced into a brigade surgeon spot, I found out today that they've let people resign their commission for this reason (skill atrophy causing inability to practice in the field/training for which you owe time).

Does anyone know the formula they use to calculate the money you would owe if you get out early?

This is from Chapter 3 of the HPSP handbook. But when referenced in Chapter 10, it seems like this recoupment scenario is in relation to contractual default or medical disqualification other than HIV.

The HPSP contract is pretty clear that you can't voluntarily exit the program, but I suppose anything is possible.
 

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