Could I skip ECs and Research?

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rangerdad

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Opinions and advice welcome!,

After 10+ yrs of military service I have decide to change professions and become a doctor. This has been my long life dream and finally I'm taking the steps to earn it. I will complete my BS in Exercise Biology including all the pre-med requisites (freshman). My goal is to apply to MD/DOs in CA, IL, FL, GA, TX, VA and Puerto Rico.

Personal Data:
- 31 yrs old male married with one daughter (wife is planning to become a PA)
- Bi-lingual
- Served as a medic for 5 yrs (Surgical Tech, Urology Tech, Combat Medic) with a 1000+ hrs of clinic, administrative, OR, and field experience
- Served 8 yrs non-medical MOS (Rangers, aviation, artillery etc...)
- Deployed overseas 9 times including 6 combat deployments
- 20+ awards and excellent performance evaluations
- Certified Personal Trainer and CPR/AED
- 30 months left of GI BILL (pay for undergraduate and housing)
- 100+ hrs non-clinical volunteering
- Enough life experiences to write a decent PS.

Plan and questions:
- I will like to take 15+ credits a semester to maximize time and the GI BILL.

- I think my focus should be in the GPA and MCAT.

- If I exceed the 30 months I will have to start working and lower the credits per semester = LONGER ROUTE!

- Same with ECs and research

- Could I skip ECs and research in order to focus on school and still have a competing application (I KNOW GPA/MCAT pending!)

- Medical experiences were 8+ yrs ago, are they still good for the application?

- I know is a long road, but Urology or Emergency Medicine?

Thank you all and good luck!

PS
I hope someday to write in the "WHAT ARE MY CHANCES" forum.

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You definitely are an above average candidate. You also have non clinical volunteering, which is great. I'd say you'd be fine without more EC. I would recommend doing research if you're thinking about big name universities, but it's not absolutely necessary. Definitely no need for mid-tier or DO. However, Urology is extremely competitive and having a history of research, which you could arguably develop in medical school, would be in your best interest.
 
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I think you can skip research for now and pursue it in medical school if it interests you. Given your other experience no one is going to look at your application and go 'oh, we would totally accept this guy, if he had research'.

You should probably put in some recent shadowing, though, given that your medical experience is older and also in a military setting. Get some current exposure to civilian medicine to confirm your interest in being a doctor in the current environment.
 
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I don't look at DO schools as mid-tier or backup. I'm really interested in the osteopathic philosophy and unique techniques. Like everyone else I'll be honor to attend a top tier school, but my goal is to become a doctor (at any US School) and serve patients to the best of my ability.

As for Urology -I experienced the diversity it has to offer and I really enjoyed dealing with older patients ( old war vets are the funniest!) but I understand that with my age I could be training into my late 40s. I think I will enjoy EM because of the excitement, the variety of patients and diseases, and the shifts. After so many years of sleep depravation I think I could still enjoy working nights and under pressure.

I will look for research opportunities, but I'm more of in the moment gratification kind of person. We'll see!

Thank you for your advice, and good luck in all your endeavors!!!
 
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You can skip research, especially for DO. However, you'll still need shadowing and its highly suggested to have some community service.

Be aware that for top research schools (USNWR) you'll be expected to have at least some research experience.

Always focus on school and getting good grades first and foremost.
 
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Opinions and advice welcome!,

After 10+ yrs of military service I have decide to change professions and become a doctor. This has been my long life dream and finally I'm taking the steps to earn it. I will complete my BS in Exercise Biology including all the pre-med requisites (freshman). My goal is to apply to MD/DOs in CA, IL, FL, GA, TX, VA and Puerto Rico.

Personal Data:
- 31 yrs old male married with one daughter (wife is planning to become a PA)
- Bi-lingual
- Served as a medic for 5 yrs (Surgical Tech, Urology Tech, Combat Medic) with a 1000+ hrs of clinic, administrative, OR, and field experience
- Served 8 yrs non-medical MOS (Rangers, aviation, artillery etc...)
- Deployed overseas 9 times including 6 combat deployments
- 20+ awards and excellent performance evaluations
- Certified Personal Trainer and CPR/AED
- 30 months left of GI BILL (pay for undergraduate and housing)
- 100+ hrs non-clinical volunteering
- Enough life experiences to write a decent PS.

Plan and questions:
- I will like to take 15+ credits a semester to maximize time and the GI BILL.

- I think my focus should be in the GPA and MCAT.

- If I exceed the 30 months I will have to start working and lower the credits per semester = LONGER ROUTE!

- Same with ECs and research

- Could I skip ECs and research in order to focus on school and still have a competing application (I KNOW GPA/MCAT pending!)

- Medical experiences were 8+ yrs ago, are they still good for the application?

- I know is a long road, but Urology or Emergency Medicine?

Thank you all and good luck!

PS
I hope someday to write in the "WHAT ARE MY CHANCES" forum.
Throw in a bit of shadowing of non-military physicians, and I doubt adcoms at anything other than top research schools will find your application lacking. If you can have a little volunteering in a clinical setting to keep some "current" experience on your application, that would be a plus, but I agree that in your case, the ECs are not going to keep you out of medical school. Only bother with research if you really have your heart set on a top research institution.
 
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Update:
Currently in my second semester as Freshman. Completed Engr300, Geometry, Algebra, Chem300 got a B in Geometry. 3.706 GPA.
This semester CHEM400, Engr302, Trig, Sociology300 and Fitness. As so far in semester.
Also worked as a senator in the Student Council, Participated VFW events, and volunteer at the largest Pre-Health conference.
Everything is working out so far.
 
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Update:
Currently in my second semester as Freshman. Completed Engr300, Geometry, Algebra, Chem300 got a B in Geometry. 3.706 GPA.
This semester CHEM400, Engr302, Trig, Sociology300 and Fitness. As so far in semester.
Also worked as a senator in the Student Council, Participated VFW events, and volunteer at the largest Pre-Health conference.
Everything is working out so far.

Awesome that everything is going so well for you! Congratulations.
 
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Financially you may want to consider saving your GI bill for med school and take loans or pay out of pocket for undergrad. Med school is far more expensive and there are fewer scholarship/grant/subsidies
 
Update:
Currently in my second semester as Freshman. Completed Engr300, Geometry, Algebra, Chem300 got a B in Geometry. 3.706 GPA.
This semester CHEM400, Engr302, Trig, Sociology300 and Fitness. As so far in semester.
Also worked as a senator in the Student Council, Participated VFW events, and volunteer at the largest Pre-Health conference.
Everything is working out so far.
Just curious about the trigonometry....I do not think you need calculus for medical school...either way you are on an awesome path...SOME medical schools do require calculus though...Just letting you know in case you want to make the process faster...They will be using minimal trig and pre calc for physics and most departments have a review for that too and it is not really a requirement....hmmm also I do not know if you want to finish your degree....Your credentials are awesome and If I were you I would apply with 90 credits (minimal requirement) after taking all premed....This saves time and money.....Best of Luck and thanks for serving this country and standing up for our freedom and safety! :)
God Bless...

Edit also check the medical schools you want to apply to individually because some might have other funky requirements....

For example statistic replaces calculus in some medical schools....
 
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Thank you guys!

- As for the GI Bill I just received a letter for VA Disability so I will be applying for the Voc Rehab program six month and hopefully switching for the rest of the path.

- Trigonometry is kicking my butt, just bc my professor does not teach and its taking me a while to fully understand (Identities and Unit Circle etc.. is easy!!!!) everything else. I just finished taking a test and I either did really well or really bad because I feel very confident. Additionally, Trigonometry is a pre-requisite for my SCC plus I did not placed higher than Algebra II in the test. I do not mind because I want to be ready and prepare for Calculus. I switched the class to PASS/FAIL since it would not be transfer when applying yo a four-year institution but it could affect my cGPA. We'll see.

QUICK UPDATE:
- I learned and research a few programs that the top schools (including few Ivy Leagues) offer for Transfer Veterans. Should I transfer if accepted even though my GPA could lower than if I attend a state-school? Just wondering (I know I read all the threads about GPA and Ivy Leagues, still I think it would be a great experiences and privilege)
 
My experience in the Ivy League: wonderful experience, incredibly enriching environment, would do it again in a heartbeat, but yes, your grades do suffer.

To be honest, I would be concerned about your ability to compete with your peers if you are taking trig right now, unless you're planning quite a few more years preparing and you are rock solid in all of your classes. Classes are curved, so your grade is completely dependent on how well you do in comparison to others in your class.

I was a very average student at my college. I had taken Calc 3, AP Bio, AP Chem, and AP Physics in high school, gotten As in all of them, and I had a 1590 SAT. I also had all 5s (the highest score) on my AP exams. By the time I was a freshman in college I had taken 8 college courses at a local college (while I was still in high school) and got a 4.0 in those. I had also done two years of research at a large biomedical research center. And this all was very average for students at my college. I'm not saying this to brag; I'm giving you a context for what I'm going to say next: I did not get As in my intro Bio/Chem/Physics courses in college. In fact, after all of that, my GPA in college was low enough to keep me out of med school, and I've spent the past two years trying to make up for that.

Your peers will have taken trig/pre-calc in 9th grade and found it easy. If you take Calc I in college (which you'll have to if you major in a science), you'll be competing with people who aced Calc 3 in high school.

I'm not saying this to discourage you, but unfortunately in the med school admissions game, grades are king. My GPA in undergrad was sub-par, and I've spent the past two years making up for this. Don't make the same mistake I made! If you know you want to go to medical school, go to a place where you know you can get As. As admissions committee members here will tell you, a B at an Ivy is NOT the same as an A at a state school; a B is a B, and an A is an A.

Admitting veterans is a big thing in the Ivies right now, and the bar is typically much lower for them to get in. So you may very well be admitted, but being admitted does not necessarily mean you'll be able to emerge competitive for medical school. Again, I really don't mean to be discouraging, but I do want to help you avoid getting yourself into a mess you can't get out of. You've worked too hard for this! Get As. Period.
 
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Your peers will have taken trig/pre-calc in 9th grade and found it easy. If you take Calc I in college (which you'll have to if you major in a science), you'll be competing with people who aced Calc 3 in high school.

I'm not saying this to discourage you, but unfortunately in the med school admissions game, grades are king. My GPA in undergrad was sub-par, and I've spent the past two years making up for this. ...Again, I really don't mean to be discouraging, but I do want to help you avoid getting yourself into a mess you can't get out of. You've worked too hard for this! Get As. Period.

I have to agree with jamcat. I have two friends (brilliant people) who went to difficult undergrad programs. One went to Brown. The other went to a pre-med program that was supposed to automatically get him admitted to medical school. Both struggled for years to get into medical school due to low grades from ultra-competitive programs. They are both practicing physicians now, which to me shows they had the intelligence all along but were hindered by poor undergrad grades.

Don't make the mistake of putting yourself in a program just for a cool experience. If you want to go Ivy League try to get into one for medical school. You aren't where you need to be yet. Get your feet under you by getting prereqs at a state school.

There are a lot of threads on SDN about ivy league vs state, because too many smart people had their dreams delayed by a big name school.

You have awesome experience as a medic that will get you ahead of the game in some aspects of medical school and will help you even get accepted, but only if you have the numbers medical schools look for.

And I agree with saving the GI bill. Go to a yellow ribbon state school and get loans for the rest. Save your GI bill for medical school (saves you $250k vs $40k). Having extra potential loan money available in medical school, plus the living expenses provided by the GI bill, will help you support your family during the 4 years it's really hard to work.
 
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Depends on the Ivy league school and the classes you plan on taking.

Some are notorious for grade inflation, while others are completely opposite.

I'd try for Harvard or Yale and steer clear of Princeton.

In the end the boost in school name will likely balance out a small drop in GPA.

The main question to need to ask yourself is whether you're up for the challenge or not.

(FWIW I'm an ex AF medic who took postbacc courses at Harvard before med school)
 
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[Edit: You added that you took post-bacc courses at Harvard. That would be Harvard Extension, which is NOT Harvard undergrad. Not even remotely.]

And have you personally attended Harvard or Yale? (And not the summer classes, which are notoriously easy? And not Harvard Extension, which is not "Harvard"?) I see a bunch of people who have never been to Ivies freely comment that Ivies are notorious for grade inflation. If you haven't personally attended an Ivy, you really have no basis for evaluating them.

"Small drop in GPA?" Well personally, after attending two Ivies and a few state schools for my post-bacc, I have about a 0.8 difference in my Ivy vs. state school GPA. I don't know whether you consider that a "small" drop; adcoms sure don't.

"Whether you're up for the challenge" is irrelevant if somebody is incapable of the challenge. I, for one, am incapable of getting a 4.0 at an Ivy. I'll freely admit that. Whether I'm "up for the challenge" or not is irrelevant. I can easily get a 4.0 at a state school, as demonstrated in the past two years.

I think your post is way off base. Even if you did indeed attend Harvard or Yale, we have absolutely zero idea what magnitude the OP's GPA would drop and what the definition of academic challenge is for him/her. So far, we know that trig is currently an academic challenge. That being the case, s/he would get absolutely eaten alive at an Ivy at the moment. Nothing to do with not being up for a challenge. All to do with just taking a different life path and not being ready for that intensity right now.
 
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First off, many thanks to you for your service to our country.
If anyone could be cut some slack, it would be you. Non-trads as a whole get cut some slack on getting research experience.


- Could I skip ECs and research in order to focus on school and still have a competing application (I KNOW GPA/MCAT pending!)

I would say so.
- Medical experiences were 8+ yrs ago, are they still good for the application?

I suggest that you get into medical school before thinking about specialty.
- I know is a long road, but Urology or Emergency Medicine?

Thank you all and good luck!
 
My experience in the Ivy League: wonderful experience, incredibly enriching environment, would do it again in a heartbeat, but yes, your grades do suffer.

To be honest, I would be concerned about your ability to compete with your peers if you are taking trig right now, unless you're planning quite a few more years preparing and you are rock solid in all of your classes. Classes are curved, so your grade is completely dependent on how well you do in comparison to others in your class.

I was a very average student at my college. I had taken Calc 3, AP Bio, AP Chem, and AP Physics in high school, gotten As in all of them, and I had a 1590 SAT. I also had all 5s (the highest score) on my AP exams. By the time I was a freshman in college I had taken 8 college courses at a local college (while I was still in high school) and got a 4.0 in those. I had also done two years of research at a large biomedical research center. And this all was very average for students at my college. I'm not saying this to brag; I'm giving you a context for what I'm going to say next: I did not get As in my intro Bio/Chem/Physics courses in college. In fact, after all of that, my GPA in college was low enough to keep me out of med school, and I've spent the past two years trying to make up for that.

Your peers will have taken trig/pre-calc in 9th grade and found it easy. If you take Calc I in college (which you'll have to if you major in a science), you'll be competing with people who aced Calc 3 in high school.

I'm not saying this to discourage you, but unfortunately in the med school admissions game, grades are king. My GPA in undergrad was sub-par, and I've spent the past two years making up for this. Don't make the same mistake I made! If you know you want to go to medical school, go to a place where you know you can get As. As admissions committee members here will tell you, a B at an Ivy is NOT the same as an A at a state school; a B is a B, and an A is an A.

Admitting veterans is a big thing in the Ivies right now, and the bar is typically much lower for them to get in. So you may very well be admitted, but being admitted does not necessarily mean you'll be able to emerge competitive for medical school. Again, I really don't mean to be discouraging, but I do want to help you avoid getting yourself into a mess you can't get out of. You've worked too hard for this! Get As. Period.

Wow! Thank you for your sincere post. Very honest and eye opening.
 
First off, many thanks to you for your service to our country.
If anyone could be cut some slack, it would be you. Non-trads as a whole get cut some slack on getting research experience.


- Could I skip ECs and research in order to focus on school and still have a competing application (I KNOW GPA/MCAT pending!)

I would say so.
- Medical experiences were 8+ yrs ago, are they still good for the application?

I suggest that you get into medical school before thinking about specialty.
- I know is a long road, but Urology or Emergency Medicine?

Thank you all and good luck!

Goro,
I understand there seems to be a strong believe in SDN that undergraduates should not worry about residency or anything pass Medical School Admission. I disagree. In my experience having short and long terms goals and learning and researching about every single detail prepares you for when the time comes.
I have been dreaming about undergraduate and medical school since I was a private in the military. I didn't know it was going to take me 14 yrs before I began the journey but everything I learned is helping me right now.
For example, I know of others in my position that don't know about the internship programs, scholarships, military benefits, government grants, SDN etc...and are having difficulty balancing school and work. In the contrary I am able to focus on school 100% because I asked WAY AHEAD OF TIME about everything.

So now, TELL ME ABOUT UROLOGY!!! Jk :)
 
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If you are still looking for help with the Unit Circle - this is something I made when Pre-Cal was breaking my brain. Maybe it will help... (hint: only click it when it says to... sometimes it is a little slow I think, but clicking through will make you miss out on information)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/44168525/unit circle.ppsx

Feel free to share :)
 
Pre-meds don't know anything about Medicine, medical school, or what residency is like. It's OK to like something, but it's very common for people to change their minds.

Most of my 3rd year students only know what they DON'T want to do!

Or, let's put this another way. You''re all gung-ho about urology...you finally get to be a urology resident, and then discover that you hate it.

So better to keep an open mind.


Goro,
I understand there seems to be a strong believe in SDN that undergraduates should not worry about residency or anything pass Medical School Admission. I disagree. In my experience having short and long terms goals and learning and researching about every single detail prepares you for when the time comes.
I have been dreaming about undergraduate and medical school since I was a private in the military. I didn't know it was going to take me 14 yrs before I began the journey but everything I learned is helping me right now.
For example, I know of others in my position that don't know about the internship programs, scholarships, military benefits, government grants, SDN etc...and are having difficulty balancing school and work. In the contrary I am able to focus on school 100% because I asked WAY AHEAD OF TIME about everything.

So now, TELL ME ABOUT UROLOGY!!! Jk :)
 
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Goro,
I understand there seems to be a strong believe in SDN that undergraduates should not worry about residency or anything pass Medical School Admission. I disagree. In my experience having short and long terms goals and learning and researching about every single detail prepares you for when the time comes.
I have been dreaming about undergraduate and medical school since I was a private in the military. I didn't know it was going to take me 14 yrs before I began the journey but everything I learned is helping me right now.
For example, I know of others in my position that don't know about the internship programs, scholarships, military benefits, government grants, SDN etc...and are having difficulty balancing school and work. In the contrary I am able to focus on school 100% because I asked WAY AHEAD OF TIME about everything.

So now, TELL ME ABOUT UROLOGY!!! Jk :)
As an older applicant as well, I'm all about long term goals and researching as much as you can in preparation. But from my time here and in my own research, it seems that specialty selection is SUCH a subjective thing that the only way to get most of the information you need to make a decision is to actually experience it for yourself. So for those of us at this stage who try to decide on a specialty, we're basically trying make a decision with only a small fraction of the required information. I believe that's why those who have been through this (like @Goro) suggest keeping an open mind about it. Best to be patient and wait until we get as much valid information as we can before finalizing a direction. Don't get me wrong, I have my list of top specialties as well but I just know that these are most likely going to change over the next four years.

25 meter target. You don't want to be like one of those kids trying to figure out how they're going to trick out their weapon when they get to a "special" team, before they've even gone to boot camp... ;)
 
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[Edit: You added that you took post-bacc courses at Harvard. That would be Harvard Extension, which is NOT Harvard undergrad. Not even remotely.]

And have you personally attended Harvard or Yale? (And not the summer classes, which are notoriously easy? And not Harvard Extension, which is not "Harvard"?) I see a bunch of people who have never been to Ivies freely comment that Ivies are notorious for grade inflation. If you haven't personally attended an Ivy, you really have no basis for evaluating them.

"Small drop in GPA?" Well personally, after attending two Ivies and a few state schools for my post-bacc, I have about a 0.8 difference in my Ivy vs. state school GPA. I don't know whether you consider that a "small" drop; adcoms sure don't.

"Whether you're up for the challenge" is irrelevant if somebody is incapable of the challenge. I, for one, am incapable of getting a 4.0 at an Ivy. I'll freely admit that. Whether I'm "up for the challenge" or not is irrelevant. I can easily get a 4.0 at a state school, as demonstrated in the past two years.

I think your post is way off base. Even if you did indeed attend Harvard or Yale, we have absolutely zero idea what magnitude the OP's GPA would drop and what the definition of academic challenge is for him/her. So far, we know that trig is currently an academic challenge. That being the case, s/he would get absolutely eaten alive at an Ivy at the moment. Nothing to do with not being up for a challenge. All to do with just taking a different life path and not being ready for that intensity right now.

Lol

You do realize I used to volunteer on my med school's adcom?

I'm well aware of how grading difficulty varies between schools. And, yes we do adjust GPAs based on the undergrad.

I did undergrad at Ivy and had no trouble getting solid grades (as did many of my med school classmates). If you truly had an SAT that high (mine was less than 1500) then you were either lazy or didn't know how to study. Also, as I'm sure you're aware, not all state schools created are equal. There's a huge difference between Berkeley and Arizona State. Saying you have a 4.0 at stateU means nothing beyond your n=1 story.

The bottom line is that if you can't handle "the intensity" of an Ivy class then I'd be worried about doing well in medical school as it is since at that stage you'll be competing with the brightest students from the best colleges (including 3.9/39 students from ivy schools).
 
Guys,
I'm aware I'm not selecting a specialty right now these are just two options. Jus like saying when I was a kid and wanted to be a Doctor or a Lawyer, but I finished been an Army Ranger. There are many variables, it does not mean that I'm OUT OF PLACE for asking.
Why Urology or ER? I worked as an Urology and Surgical Tech for the Navy for 5 years and I really liked the field. ER because as an experience Marine Corpsman and Army Ranger I think I will be good at high intensity and crazy schedule work environment, but like you say EVERYTHING COULD OR WILL change.
 
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Update:

It has been a while since my last post. Life has been busy and joyful. Currently I'm at my second year of undergraduate. A lot of things have changed and many stayed the same.
I am very busy with school and I am about to complete my last Gen Eds this spring semester. I have been going back and forth of what to do and if medical school is the right path. In college I have learned that I enjoy classes in the philosophy, sociology and business department (they are easy). I also work part-time as a personal trainer, compete as an NPC bodybuilder, volunteer as the chess instructor for my daughter's school, and working on opening a business. As for science I completed all my General Chem (B and A), by .19% so mad at myself. I decided to change my major to Business Administration in order to acquire a degree that will bring me broader opportunities. I will be completing my Calc and Org Chem series, plus my AA in BA at my CA community college. Then, I will be transferring to UF online program BSBA and also complete my last premed requisites at a local college in Jacksonville, FL (family is moving to our home in FL). I've learned that I enjoyed online classes for subjects that are not science specific and that I can work ahead of schedule. Additionally I love the flexibility it provides me to do everything, specially bodybuilding which its my therapy.

GPA: 3.80
UC Davis Pre-health conference
Veterans Foreign Wars member
PHI THETA KAPPA
Student Senator
Chemistry Student of the Year
Emerging Leaders Award
4 scholarships with a value of $2000
Many volunteer hours in things I love.

Note:
Still need to shadow a civilian doctor but that can wait. Not worry about getting rejected due to an online degree. I know I'll succeed in anything I decide to pursue. DO, MD, International it doesn't matter I just keep pushing.

THANKS FOR THE COMMENTS!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
First,

Rangers Lead the Way.

Thanks for your service. I was in for 10 myself during the 2000s.


Let me tell you man, do some shadowing. In fact, see if you can get into a Level I ED. Also, consider looking into pediatrics. Do some diverse shadowing, and you'll know if this is the path for your or not. Your GPA is outstanding, and once you're done with your pre-reqs, I'm sure you'll attack the MCAT with the same level of dedication that you did with your military career. It's kind of the way of our people. I scored pretty well on it, and I'll be happy to PM you my plan of attack for that damned test.

For what its worth, I know that 'research experience' can be important for 'some' schools, and helps to demonstrate another aspect of academic competency and proficiency with a key component of many programs. But certainly not all.

Make absolutely sure that schools you apply to recognize 'online' classes. Many do not. I think you'll find a lot more friendliness with that in DO programs than MD. (UC Davis laughed at me when I asked).

Feel free to message me if you want.
 
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Brancer thank you for the motivation and advice. Great to know that there are Rangers out there following a similar path. I'm busy right now but I am very sure that I want your plan of attack for the MCAT!!! Good luck in all your endeavors.
RLTW!


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I cannot believe that has been almost 4 yrs since I posted this thread. I was getting out of the military at that moment and life seem kind of grey at best. After some many ups and downs (for real), I am less than a year to finish my BS in Biomedical Science (3.97 GPA). I started prepping for the MCAT; connecting with my LOR writers; and will conduct a few 'check the block' shadowing.
I am hoping to convince my Voc Rehab counselor to allow the government to pay for my full ride med journey (fingers crossed), and we will see!
 
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