Credibility of the PsyD

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PhDHopeful89

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Before getting offended of what I am about to write, I am only basing this topic on what I've heard from other psychologists.

I don't understand the purpose of obtaining a PsyD when many organizations will not justify as a reputable degree.

When I first began my pursuit into improving my CV for graduate school, I was actually considering to apply to PsyD programs because I was more interested in clinical work than research.

However, when I asked a clinical psychologist, who I do research for and works at a very reputable children's hospital, she advised against it and informed me that this hospital does not accept PsyD applicants because they are not perceived as well-trained as PhDs.

When I heard this, I was shocked to hear that PsyDs would not get hired in the exact type of setting that I want to work at after graduate school. Therefore, I switched my focus towards obtaining a PhD and have slowly began to enjoy research more.

She told me that PsyD programs are like business schools, they accept too many applicants so that they can earn a lot of profit. While some of the students accepted are very good, some are also mediocre and were only accepted for more financial gain. She then explained to me that, because of the immense amount of PsyD students, a good portion do not find internships after graduation because there are too many students for too few internships that PhDs get first dibs on.

I asked many other psychologists that I knew about their opinions on PsyD programs and they all expressed similar opinions. I want to note that they did not do it in an arrogant manner, they explained their reasoning to me with factual and statistical evidence. For example, 10% of PhD applicants are accepted vs. 40% or more of PsyD applicants are accepted. Some psychologists mentioned that the PsyD degree is a major reason why the psychology market is flooded.

Overall, based on the information that many professionals and advisors have told me, shouldn't the PsyD be avoided if possible? If PsyD applicants cannot get hired in all of the places that PhD applicants can, can get accepted into their graduate program much more easily than PhDs, have trouble finding internships, and are not certified to do research. Then why do people decide to enroll into PsyDs? I know a psychologist who is in charge of admissions for a PsyD program but she is a PhD. Doesn't that imply something about the degree?

Once again I did not want to express any harmful comments for this topic. However, I do want to question what others think about the reality of how credible a PsyD program is.

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Both PhDs and PsyDs are granted by professional schools. In addition, PhDs and PsyDs are granted by universities. In other words, PhDs can be earned at low-ranked professional programs like Fielding, Pacific Graduate School of Professional Psychology and Argosy but are predominantly conferred by well-respected universities. At the same time, PsyDs are sometimes granted at well respected universities (Rutgers, Baylor) but are more commonly granted by professional schools. Therefore, It is not the type of degree (PhD versus PsyD) that commands respect, but it where the degree is earned (professional school versus university).

Thus, in general,

1 - A degree from a professional school, either a PhD or a PsyD, is less respected.
2 - A degree from a university, either a PhD or a PsyD, commands more respect.

Keep in mind: professional schools are not ridiculed in ALL settings. However, degrees obtained from universities are respected in all setting. Thus, overall, the best degree from a career standpoint is one earned from a university whether it's a PhD or a PsyD.

Personally, I don't have any less respect for professional school degrees, but my advisor in graduate school. as well as other professors in my university, refused to work with persons who earned their degrees from professional schools.
 
I've heard all the same things you have, Hopeful, and it wasn't until I got involved with these forums that I started hearing pro-PsyD arguments. I now realize that there are several PsyD programs that are respected, along with some PhD programs that aren't, but I still would advise my fellow applicants to go the PhD route. Plus, you have a much better chance of getting fully-funded and a better internship if you go to a good PhD program vs. a good PsyD program. (Not saying there isn't good funding for SOME PsyD programs, but it's more the exception than the norm!)
 
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It definitely depends on the setting. I'm currently at a VA, and there are 28 Ph.D's and 4 Psy.D's on staff. There is no more/less respect for the different degree holders, as that seems to be reserved for their professional abilities.
 
I can't let your post go without responding. First, let me preface that I attend a PsyD program. I'd also admit it is generally considered one of the best PsyD programs out there (small, low acceptance rate, university-based, trains students in analysis of research, very good internship match rate). So what I'm going to say comes with my bias, I guess. Still, take it for what it's worth -- a counterbalance to some other opinions out there (especially those given by PhDs in the field).

Many PsyD programs are more lax in their standards than the typical PhD program. That said, it is not a given the PsyD = substandard training or fewer employment opportunities. In my experience, there are some hospitals and the like that preference the PhD, but not that many. Psychologists usually know the good PsyD programs from the bad ones and judge accordingly. This is not to say that you shouldn't go for the PhD if you enjoy the research and this training model is what you want. There are definite financial advantages to Phd programs that are fully funded (not all PhD programs offer this, even though it's more common than in PsyD programs). Just don't forget that the PsyD is a newer degree and many psychologists who graduated a while ago are unfamiliar with the training offered to PsyDs and make prejudiced, uninformed judgments about competency. Do your own research on individual programs as well as listening to the opinions of others, even those of us on this forum.

Wishing you luck in the application process.:luck:
 
However, when I asked a clinical psychologist, who I do research for and works at a very reputable children's hospital, she advised against it and informed me that this hospital does not accept PsyD applicants because they are not perceived as well-trained as PhDs.

When I heard this, I was shocked to hear that PsyDs would not get hired in the exact type of setting that I want to work at after graduate school.

If PsyD applicants cannot get hired in all of the places that PhD applicants can, can get accepted into their graduate program much more easily than PhDs, have trouble finding internships, and are not certified to do research.

Unfortunately there is a lot of bias out there. While there are people who will not hire a PsyD and/or a professional school student it is not impossible to get jobs in traditional PhD settings. You may have to prove yourself a bit more, but to make blanket statements that you can not get hired in all the places a PhD can is simply untrue. You will also come across people who are incredibly narrow minded and will not consider you even if your CV is stellar. I ran into that when applying to internships and was told "don't bother, so and so won't even consider a PsyD." I chalked it up to their loss versus questioning the validity of my training.

Full disclosure: PsyD from a professional school working on a 2 year 50% research, 50% clinical post-doc at a prestigious academic medical center in a rather competitive city for psychology grads. I am running 3 of my own studies while working on a U01 multicenter grant. I did an APA accredited internship at a VA in the same city. So yes, it is possible to "do what a PhD can do." Whatever that means exactly.
 
Does anyone else have any input on this field?

It's not Psy.D. vs Ph.D., as others have said it's not such a simple dichotomy. There are great Psy.D. programs, there are great Ph.D. problems, finally there are bad Ph.D. and Psy.D. programs. If the program has lax entry requirements, poor outcomes, and charges a lot of money... you would want to be very thorough before deciding to attend such a program.

Mark
 
The only place the differentiation matters is in Research I academic institutions. You have little to no shot of getting a position in a major research university with a PsyD. But then again, why would you want one if you get a PsyD? In clinical practice, the only thing that matters is that you are licensed or license-eligible. Beyond that, it's up to you as the individual to demonstrate your competence and ability as a psychologist.

And, don't assume that getting a PsyD puts you at a disadvantage for predoctoral internship. I am faculty at an APA-accredited, CMHC-based internship program, and we routinely find that many of the best applicants are from PsyD programs. But, yes, there is a noticeable difference (generally speaking) between PsyD applicants from university-based programs and those from the freestanding schools as well as those applicants from heavily research-based PhD programs with little clinical training.
 
hasn't held me back at all.

still have the busiest practice in the area. have a reputation as the one to go to for complicated cases.

still get asked to give presentations at conferences.
 
I second what most others have said. I'm on internship now at a state hospital. There are 4 interns -- 2 are psyd and 2 are phd candidates. There's no difference in how we approach our work or in our levels of preparedness. I'm in a psyd program. I know it was the correct choice for me. It is not at a freestanding professional school; it's university based. I do think that all psyd programs are not created equal. Stick to the better ones, and as long as you don't have your heart set on a research-heavy career, you should be fine.
 
Both PhDs and PsyDs are granted by professional schools. In addition, PhDs and PsyDs are granted by universities. In other words, PhDs can be earned at low-ranked professional programs like Fielding, Pacific Graduate School of Professional Psychology and Argosy but are predominantly conferred by well-respected universities.

Gosh, I didn't know my school was "low ranked."
 
Gosh, I didn't know my school was "low ranked."

73B, this is random, but I see you're at Gordon - there isn't by chance a Dr. Ross still working at the OPMH center is there? She would probably be a Colonel...
 
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73B, this is random, but I see you're at Gordon - there isn't by chance a Dr. Ross still working at the OPMH center is there? She would probably be a Colonel...

I'll PM you.
 
I understand that doing research is pretty difficult with a PsyD, but what about teaching at the university level?
 
I understand that doing research is pretty difficult with a PsyD, but what about teaching at the university level?

I think it's doable, but takes some effort. I know of several Psyds from my program who teach at the university level, as well as some who teach as adjuncts or regular faculty in doctoral programs (typically the psyd grad programs, but not exclusively).
 
I think it's doable, but takes some effort. I know of several Psyds from my program who teach at the university level, as well as some who teach as adjuncts or regular faculty in doctoral programs (typically the psyd grad programs, but not exclusively).
i agree...i know lots of psyD's who teach as adjuncts at the graduate and undergraduate level.
 
My percpetion is that being an "adjunct" is quite the rip-off, when considering the time imvestment involved.

Being responsible for an entire class(s) (which is enormously time consuming) for relatively low payment at most schools and with no benefits......
 
My percpetion is that being an "adjunct" is quite the rip-off, when considering the time imvestment involved.

Being responsible for an entire class(s) (which is enormously time consuming) for relatively low payment at most schools and with no benefits......

All the adjuncts I know have practices outside of the university they're affiliated with and only teach because they enjoy it or because they receive benefits from the university.
 
My percpetion is that being an "adjunct" is quite the rip-off, when considering the time imvestment involved.

Being responsible for an entire class(s) (which is enormously time consuming) for relatively low payment at most schools and with no benefits......

Yeah, adjuncts don't usually do it for the money. Personally, I'd consider doing it as an adjunct to my practice, mainly because it keeps work interesting and provides professional connections and marketing opportunities.
 
Yeah, adjuncts don't usually do it for the money. Personally, I'd consider doing it as an adjunct to my practice, mainly because it keeps work interesting and provides professional connections and marketing opportunities.
and dont forget all the lovely free books!!! thats really the only draw for me to teach. lol
 
I'd teach just for library access if I didn't have it through some other route. I'm planning on a primary academic appointment so its not an issue, but for those who aren't it must be a big problem. Med centers may have their own, but a private or small group practice definitely will not. I can't imagine functioning without it.
 
I'd teach just for library access if I didn't have it through some other route. I'm planning on a primary academic appointment so its not an issue, but for those who aren't it must be a big problem. Med centers may have their own, but a private or small group practice definitely will not. I can't imagine functioning without it.

One of my supervisors was just talking about access to online journals today, and how we now have better access to them through the VA. I'm so accustomed to using my university access, I don't know what I'd do if I couldn't jump on and pull stuff up! :eek:

I plan on working in an academically affiliated position, so hopefully with that comes access.
 
it does make me quite sad to know that i will soon be on my own for library access...i only use online databases, but i wont have that privilege for much longer...
 
One of my supervisors was just talking about access to online journals today, and how we now have better access to them through the VA. I'm so accustomed to using my university access, I don't know what I'd do if I couldn't jump on and pull stuff up! :eek:

I plan on working in an academically affiliated position, so hopefully with that comes access.

All the places I know of offer library access for pretty much anyone even remotely affiliated (i.e. teach one class every couple years, or even have a "zero-time" courtesy appointment and you will retain library access).

I get frustrated enough when we don't actually have online access because the journals are older/brand new/somewhat obscure, and I have to order them and wait a couple days for them to be emailed to me. I have no idea how anyone can function without library access, but on the topic of the research-practice gap, how about the fact that anyone in private practice would have to pay thousands of dollars every year in order to even have the OPTION of keeping up on the research literature, let alone the time to do so effectively.

Between groups like Cochrane, and clinical practice/treatment guidelines we are starting to see some improvements but good lord was that a dysfunctional system if I've ever seen one.
 
that is a good point...i know that during the course of my practicums and internships, ive kind of been used for my student id number when it comes to research....i suppose as long as i work at a place that takes interns/practicum students, i will always have access!
 
that is a good point...i know that during the course of my practicums and internships, ive kind of been used for my student id number when it comes to research....i suppose as long as i work at a place that takes interns/practicum students, i will always have access!
Some colleges/universities will leave ID numbers active for years. I had access to my undergrad for a number of years after I graduated. I'm not sure if they did this as a courtesy, or if they just never got around to changing the permissions.

I hope I can keep my university access, as I can navigate the databases in my sleep now. :laugh:
 
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