D.O. friendly radiology programs

[oreosandsake]

I did do a search on this, was wondering if there was any update.

anyone care to chime in?

thanks

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[Entgegen]

I'm at TCOM here in Texas, so I can only speak for a few in the state. C/O 2008 had 4 people match into MD rads residencies here in TX: 1 at Baylor, 1 at UT Houston, 2 at UT San Antonio. That's all I got...

 

[kelaskov]

Applied this year, mostly in northeast. I don't think there are any DO friendly residencies. However, ones that will give you a fair chance- UMass, Baystate Medical Center, Albany Med, SUNY Upstate, University of Pittsburgh (PD is a DO), Pennsylvania Hospital, Drexel (PD is a DO), Temple, University of Minnesota, Dartmouth, Christiana Care, Cleveland Clinic, Maine Medical Center, Geisinger, NEOUCOM, University of Rochester. For any, you will need to have, in general, a stronger application than your US MD counterparts. Also, you will need to do well in the interviews. That said, I think there are some great programs here so if you do very well in med school you'll have a good chance.

 

[PistolPete]

All in all, would it be fair to say that the Northeast allo rads programs are more friendly to DO applicants than those in the Midwest, which are both friendlier than the South and West? Anyone know of any programs in the South/West that will give DO's a fair crack? I would wager that the allo texas programs mentioned above by Entgegen only took those DO's because they were from the area (TCOM).

 

[MikeTheGipper]

I was looking on the UMass Rads residency site and in one of their current classes there are four residents total and two are D.O.'s. I thought that was pretty encouraging.

 

[txguy]

I'm at TCOM here in Texas, so I can only speak for a few in the state. C/O 2008 had 4 people match into MD rads residencies here in TX: 1 at Baylor, 1 at UT Houston, 2 at UT San Antonio. That's all I got...

For whatever its worth, on the interview trail this year in Texas, I only met DO applicants at Baylor Houston and UT San Antonio. On my JPS TY interview, I met two DO interns who were going on to Radiology at UT San Antonio (likely the same 2 people referenced in the quoted post).

Good luck!

 

[emlopez2]

I know of at least 1 DO radiology resident at the University of Colorado and im not sure how many but I contacted Maricopa in Phoenix and they said some of their rads residents were DOs.

 

[travis]

http://radiology.matchapplicants.com/search.php


put in comlex score above 100 and you can see the DO applicants where they got interviews etc...

However, I dont think there is much 'bias' against DOs, I think if you score well on the USMLE you have just as much shot as anyone.

 

[kelaskov]

http://radiology.matchapplicants.com/search.php


put in comlex score above 100 and you can see the DO applicants where they got interviews etc...

However, I dont think there is much 'bias' against DOs, I think if you score well on the USMLE you have just as much shot as anyone.

I have to say that I know for a fact this is not true, was told by an attending at Brown "we don't interview DOs", I know from experience that UVM is historically unfriendly to DOs, however recently seems to be opening up. I know from talking to MD applicants with similar or weaker apps than mine (based on boards, clinical grades, research) that they got interviews at several places I had applied to, in my region, where I did not. The truth is that there is a bias against DOs and it's better to acknowledge this, and understand that you will have to work that much harder to make it. Please don't delude yourself into thinking that you have an even shot everywhere. I know that there are some places that will give you a fair shake, but many won't.

 

[docmd2010]

i'm an osteopathic student and haven't applied yet, so take my post with a grain of salt...

I can confidently say that there is significant D.O discrimination out there in the radiology world.

If you're a do, and even if u got a 255 on step 1, and have reserach pubs etc etc, i can almost guarantee you that you will not be ranked at a top ten institution to match.

you want to see how much bias there is? look at that radiology match applicants website, look at a do student with say a 240 and then an MD student with a 240 and look at how many and more importatnly where the interviews are coming from. you'll see that the do student has mainly community programs with a scatter of mid-tier programs and that the md student will have all university programs with even a couple interviews from top-notch programs. that tells you how potent the discrimination is...

h

this bias sucks (really bad) but unfort. it's certainly there.

 

[docmd2010]

also, a good way to judge if the bias is startening to loosen up is to look at the match results that will come out in 3 weeks. last year 37 osteopathic students matched allo rads.

if this number increases, things are looking good. my prediction is that this year, 50+ d.o. students will match into allo rads.

good luck

 

[predodoc]

also, a good way to judge if the bias is startening to loosen up is to look at the match results that will come out in 3 weeks. last year 37 osteopathic students matched allo rads.

if this number increases, things are looking good. my prediction is that this year, 50+ d.o. students will match into allo rads.

good luck

There are at least 3 people in my class going for allo Rads(out of 78). They are all real good appicants. Just like others said, in April or so, look at how many DOs matched into Rads and where.
From what I have seen, there is a bias in all specialties but just not all programs. I think this is partly due to our past and having our own residencies that they cannot apply for. Once a program decides to let one of us in and sees that we are just as good and there is no real difference, this decreases the bias. Other programs of the same caliber see that their competition is open to DOs, so they decide to be also. Ultimatly it will be the top teir programs that decide to open up last.

 

[PublicEnemy]

docmd2010 is right on the money. as a 4th year DO student going through this right now, i'm one of those people he described with good boards, significant research, good letters etc. i'm fortunate to have a large number of interviews ~30, with several from strong academic university programs but i definitely did not receive many interviews from elite programs but my colleagues with similar stats from allopathic schools literally had interviews from everywhere including the top programs.

docmd2010 is also right about the number of DO's matching increasing. this year i've encountered many absolutely solid DO's on the interview trail. my school alone has 8 very well qualified people going for rads this year out of about 90 or so.

the only comment i'd like to add is that while there are programs that do not appear to overtly discriminate against DO's. the last poster's thinking while very idealistic is not exactly the norm. the truth is, DO students often match into places where they have significantly higher stats than their allopathic counterparts, and they're often star residents and PD's and people at these programs do notice and they obviously don't have bias against DO's on a professional level but its just far more complicated than that, and the selection bias against DO's has other reasons.

see PD's also realize that from the outside looking in, people may take a look at a program and see there are several DO's and just assume its not a strong program and that the most competetive allopathic candidates must have thought it was weak and didn't rank it in order for a DO or FMG to get those spots. this can result in the next waves of competitive applicants steering clear of a program or having less interest in it and no PD wants that. the PD's of "DO Friendly" places walk a fine line between attracting and ranking the absolute best candidates, and while many places do not mind at all about matching a DO here and there, most do not want to suddenly match more than half their class or even be known as "DO Friendly"

radiology however is slowing becoming more infiltrated with DO's. i think in rads we're still several years away from seeing the kind of success DO's have with anesthesiology and pm&r. in GAS there are many DO's in academic positions, chairs, PD's and each year DO's make it into the most elite of programs. this will eventually happen in radiology as well so long as we keep doing as well as possible, get good stats, push the envelope with applications and interviews, go to the best possible places we can, do excellent fellowships and take on academic roles down the road. it's just a trickle now but we'll turn it into a gusher.

 

[kelaskov]

Well said, and very important for those of us who do make it to continue to work hard. All it will take is one bad DO resident and that program will probably be lost for the rest of us. Kind of funny, if they get a bad MD resident, it's just a bad resident, but if it's a bad DO resident then it usually means all DOs must be bad.

 

[docmd2010]

most certainly agree. a d.o. in an allo rads program most certainly can have a trickle down effect. a stellar performance can open the doors for us later in the future, but a sub-par one would almost certainly close the door for us.

it's like eating at a restaurant that you've heard isn't that good. if you give it a chance one time, and get a dish that isn't to your liking, then that restaurant is done for in your book, despite the fact that out of all the dishes you chose the one poorly made one.

we all need to work together-work very hard, get academic positions when we get out, become PD's and help our youngers.

best of luck to you all.

 

[jumpingjax]

How about applying to Osteopathic radiology programs.

 

[kelaskov]

Always an option, note that you will be primarily limited to doing your residency in the Detroit area. Also, I have heard secondhand that the quality of the training does not rival almost any of the allo programs. I believe one program, maybe more, does not have a full time MRI but a few days a week gets a mobile unit. In this day and age, and with more and more concerns about ionizing radiation exposure in medicine, you'd better be very comfortable with MR when you finish.
If you want to pursue AOA programs, you absolutely need to rotate at some.

 

[Dr.D-man]

my school alone has 8 very well qualified people going for rads this year out of about 90 or so.

What does this number represent? Graduating students applying for residency? Or rads applicants from your school? The latter seems crazy, but I really don't know.

 

[PublicEnemy]

8 applicants out of a class of 90. Pretty big increase from 1 each of the last 3 years at my school.

Don't get me wrong, 10% of a class going for radiology is not a big deal at all. Many allopathic schools have around 20% of their class going for rads. I just think the increase in my class is representative of a national trend of increased interest in radiology. We'll see in a week and a half when we get the match results but I have a feeling there was a very sizable increase in the total number of applicants applying for radiology this year. Many of the programs indicated that they got record breaking numbers of applicants this year, with more than 20% more applications than last year.

 

[docmd2010]

agree with public enemy. an increase by 20% in apps is huge. that's a huge hike in competition. I think that in the upcoming years if you don't have a 99 on step 1, you probably aren't going to be given serious consideration...

on the contrary, i do believe that there are a lot more fmg's applying every year as fmg's as many realize that practicing radiology in the united states seems to be very attractive. i'm very anxious to see the match statistics this year.

good luck to you publicenemy!

 

[travis]

I have to say that I know for a fact this is not true, was told by an attending at Brown "we don't interview DOs", I know from experience that UVM is historically unfriendly to DOs, however recently seems to be opening up. I know from talking to MD applicants with similar or weaker apps than mine (based on boards, clinical grades, research) that they got interviews at several places I had applied to, in my region, where I did not. The truth is that there is a bias against DOs and it's better to acknowledge this, and understand that you will have to work that much harder to make it. Please don't delude yourself into thinking that you have an even shot everywhere. I know that there are some places that will give you a fair shake, but many won't.

Thanks, let me clarify, I meant that many places, possibly even a majority, view DOs as relatively equal candidates. There are places that discriminate, Monmouth, for example, will not interview DOs and there are other examples, but my point is that if one applies broadly a DO and MD applicant have pretty similar shots at 'getting a spot', even though the MD may have an advantage at a few certain programs.

I just dont want to discourage DOs who score well on USMLE, or even comlex, to not consider MD rads, because if you score high enough you will get a spot, DO or not.

 

[docmd2010]

Travis,

I applaud your efforts to provide future osteopathic applicants such as my self with reknowned sense of courage and hope. However, to say that "if you have good board scores you'll match DO or not" is completely inaccurate. last year there were over 100 DO applicants (i called ERAS and got this number) that applied MD radiology, and only 37 total matched. that's a 37% match rate. you're tellin me that over 60 people had crappy board scores? please..

these people aren't going to commit themselves to the match in rads if they don't think that they won't match. this sucks for us d.o.'s.

let's hope that we break 50 this year in the total amount. i think that would be a great sign...

 

[Entgegen]

Travis,

I applaud your efforts to provide future osteopathic applicants such as my self with reknowned sense of courage and hope. However, to say that "if you have good board scores you'll match DO or not" is completely inaccurate. last year there were over 100 DO applicants (i called ERAS and got this number) that applied MD radiology, and only 37 total matched. that's a 37% match rate. you're tellin me that over 60 people had crappy board scores? please..

these people aren't going to commit themselves to the match in rads if they don't think that they won't match. this sucks for us d.o.'s.

let's hope that we break 50 this year in the total amount. i think that would be a great sign...

Not to say that there's any equality in the matching of DOs in MD rads, but I wonder how many of those 63 applicants matched into DO rads programs. After all, since the DO match happens before the MD match and an applicant is automatically withdrawn from the MD match upon matching DO, wouldn't that withdrawal count as "not matching" MD even though they still applied MD?

Now I'm not saying that all 63 of those applicants matched DO (I don't think there are than many DO rads spots anyway...), or that they even applied DO for that matter, but just because 63 DOs didn't match MD doesn't necessarily mean that those 63 didn't match at all.

 

[docmd2010]

yeah that is certainly true. i think there are some 22-25 d.o. spots. I guess most applicants apply d.o. and md as I know that huron valley, an osteopathic radiology program, gets about 120 applicants (similar to the amount entering the allopathic match). so maybe around ~60% or so matched, still leaves 40 of us unmatched. a staggering number compared to the ~10 percent of US MD's.

 

[osli]

I happen to think that the board scores are playing a huge role there. I have no first-hand knowledge, but I'd think that a DO with USMLE step 1 of 245+ would have a pretty good change at an allo spot (much better than 37% if applying intelligently). However, all MDs with 245+ would likely find a spot somewhere unless there was something else very wrong with their application. It's that "average" 230-235 range that is going to hurt DO's. Why take a DO with "average" (for rads) scores when there are plenty of MD applicants on the list to choose from? I'm sure some get in, but many won't. That's heavily biasing the statistics. If you have a great step 1 score, apply with confidence.

 

[docmd2010]

certainly agree with osli...

i'm worried about my 238 enough to take step II early, whereas my MD counterpart with a 238 certainly is not.

a 245+ does put a d.o. up above the average applicant.

so in september I am applying with caution, should be an interesting 5 to 6 months albeit very stressfull...

 

[stud247]

Always an option, note that you will be primarily limited to doing your residency in the Detroit area. Also, I have heard secondhand that the quality of the training does not rival almost any of the allo programs. I believe one program, maybe more, does not have a full time MRI but a few days a week gets a mobile unit. In this day and age, and with more and more concerns about ionizing radiation exposure in medicine, you'd better be very comfortable with MR when you finish.
If you want to pursue AOA programs, you absolutely need to rotate at some.

so what happens if you do a DO residency? will you have trouble getting into a m.d. fellowship or getting employement afterwards?

 

[Angio]

so what happens if you do a DO residency? will you have trouble getting into a m.d. fellowship or getting employement afterwards?

This is my concern. I haven't even applied to medical school, but I am worried about where I apply now, because I have a strong interest in IR and don't want anything to get in my way of getting there.

 

[box29]

FWIW, the senior residents at my program did not have a problem obtaining fellowships, and neither have the past residents.

 

[Angio]

FWIW, the senior residents at my program did not have a problem obtaining fellowships, and neither have the past residents.

This does make me feel better... I am truly hoping for a spot in my home state, as It simply would be easier, considering all my family is here, not to mention my house

Not to say that I want to forfeit a spectacular education in lieu of location, but there are several great DO schools here.

 

[nvshelat]

Does this place interview/take DOs?

 

[skatertudoroga]

What about the military? If you score well on step1 and do a tour as a gmo are you basically on the same footing as anybody else applying for a military residency?

 

[obamacaresux]

As a current applicant for this season, I definitely feel the heat from the hike in applications. With a 245+ score and solid app, I was hoping to sit at a good spot with at least 12 invites, but its not even close. Its for sure a numbers game and a regional preference. I also agree that being a DO applicant is challenging because my friend from an MD school applying to rads with the same score/app has gotten way more invites.

It really stinks with this upcoming 25% cut in health care next year may be effecting this increase in competitiveness.

For the aspiring future radiologists, really work hard on your apps. A good friend of mine (who happens to be an IR attending) said that radiology goes in cycles. Unfortunately, its on the down at the moment in terms of jobs. Hopefully it will cycle for the better when we finish.

While I do agree that using matchapplicants.com can be a useful guide, there were a few programs this year that historically did not gave invites to DO applicants so apply broadly. Good luck all

 

[DdrumbumD]

dang, hang in there! Hopefully more invites will be coming soon for you. Way less than 12 invites? How many programs did you apply to, 40+ ?