D.O. student trying to assess ACGME competitiveness

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InFactotum

EM Doc and CCM Fellow
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My apologies if these kinds of threads are not looked upon kindly! Let me know and I'll move along :)

I'm a third year D.O. student planning to apply to EM this Fall, primarily ACGME to have more options for fellowships. I am really uncertain of what level of programs I have a shot at. Some of my dream programs would include Highland, NYU, USC, UCSD. Here are some of my basic stats:

Preclinical: 2nd quartile
Clinical: Mostly H, one HP, expecting the same for my remaining 3 core rotations, shelf scores are average
USMLE Step 1: Mid 230's
COMLEX Level 1: ~600
Leadership: Held position in my local EM interest group, also leadership positions in another specialty interest group and student health clinic
Research: One surgery publication (1st author in smaller journal), one EM publication (2nd author in J.E.M.), poster presentations at 4 conferences, hoping for one more pub before ERAS
Other: Editor of a published book for medical students (non-EM related, I prefer to stay anonymous)... interests outside of medicine include SCUBA diving and racing my car around regional tracks

I expect to receive a SLOE from my home DO program in a couple months, and as of now plan to apply for an audition rotation at either Highland or NYU in order to receive a 2nd SLOE. Should I be focusing my applications on mid-tier programs? Do I have a shot at places like NYU or other top-tier programs?

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Speaking as a DO who is about to certify his rank list, I would check each programs websites and look to see if they have any DOs in their current batch of residents. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I don't think any of those highly competitive programs currently have any DOs. I believe USC may have had a DO or two a few years ago. Don't mean to burst your bubble but most of the "top tier" academic EM programs are not DO friendly. You should still apply cause you never know, but brace yourself in case they don't give you an invite.
 
I don't think USC, UCSD, or NYU are DO friendly at all. I don't think NYU EM has ever taken a DO before (not sure about this). I really do not recommend doing a rotation at NYU. In general, I would be reserved about doing rotations at only the very top residencies because the competition you will be facing will be intense. If you think you can manage, then more power to you. However if you f up even a single SLOE, it's going to be difficult for you.

I don't know how strong of a student you are in general but you should always apply broadly as a DO. That and always take Step 2.

There are top tier programs that are DO friendly. You just have to scout them out.
 
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This reminds me of that post in the "Osteopathic EM Programs" thread where someone got a great SLOE from Vanderbilt until the end when they say "Will not rank." Why risk that? Seems like you would be shooting yourself in the foot before you even get started.
 
This reminds me of that post in the "Osteopathic EM Programs" thread where someone got a great SLOE from Vanderbilt until the end when they say "Will not rank." Why risk that? Seems like you would be shooting yourself in the foot before you even get started.
That was me but I don't think it was in the Osteopathic EM thread... don't really ever post there unless my Alzheimers is flaring. I didn't do it because I thought I was going to earn my way into Vandy... I did it because I knew that a SLOE from Vandy would carry weight nationally (and it did) and that just about everyone that commented on my SLOE said how good it was and that they totally understood why it said "will not rank". That, along with the fact that the Vandy visiting elective is HEAVY on teaching and sends you out on the road well prepared really made it worth it for me. Unless one of these places you look to rotate carry those characteristics then I'd say skip and find a place that will actually help you come interview season, not hurt you. Despite my SLOE saying "will not rank" I still think that letter helped me a lot.

To the OPs question... I don't know that any of those programs are considered "top tier" (maybe Highland... I guess) as much as they are considered "competitive" due to location. I'll be honest with you... you're Step 1 is definitely good enough to match but will not be good enough to get a serious look from some of the top tier programs. Sure, there might be a few that are considered top tier that will look but for the most part the chances at top tier places are kinda left to the 250+ type crowd and even then you rarely see anyone match at them. Sure, some will say Indiana or some place like that and... sure... if you say so. Take it as you will I guess but there are definitely places out there that DOs such as yourself stand a good if not great chance. From your list of dream places I'm guessing geography is a main interest in terms of what you're looking for more than the actual program itself, am I right?
 
That was me but I don't think it was in the Osteopathic EM thread... don't really ever post there unless my Alzheimers is flaring. I didn't do it because I thought I was going to earn my way into Vandy... I did it because I knew that a SLOE from Vandy would carry weight nationally (and it did) and that just about everyone that commented on my SLOE said how good it was and that they totally understood why it said "will not rank". That, along with the fact that the Vandy visiting elective is HEAVY on teaching and sends you out on the road well prepared really made it worth it for me. Unless one of these places you look to rotate carry those characteristics then I'd say skip and find a place that will actually help you come interview season, not hurt you. Despite my SLOE saying "will not rank" I still think that letter helped me a lot.

To the OPs question... I don't know that any of those programs are considered "top tier" (maybe Highland... I guess) as much as they are considered "competitive" due to location. I'll be honest with you... you're Step 1 is definitely good enough to match but will not be good enough to get a serious look from some of the top tier programs. Sure, there might be a few that are considered top tier that will look but for the most part the chances at top tier places are kinda left to the 250+ type crowd and even then you rarely see anyone match at them. Sure, some will say Indiana or some place like that and... sure... if you say so. Take it as you will I guess but there are definitely places out there that DOs such as yourself stand a good if not great chance. From your list of dream places I'm guessing geography is a main interest in terms of what you're looking for more than the actual program itself, am I right?

Ok, see this makes more sense. Like you said, you weren't trying to earn your way in, but use the letter as weight for other places. Not gonna lie, I think I got a pang of chest pain at the end when the SLOE said "Will not rank." This is a better strategy I think than trying to force your way into the ivory towers. Glad to hear you think it helped you out in the end though. Did you do ACGME only?
 
Ok, see this makes more sense. Like you said, you weren't trying to earn your way in, but use the letter as weight for other places. Not gonna lie, I think I got a pang of chest pain at the end when the SLOE said "Will not rank." This is a better strategy I think than trying to force your way into the ivory towers. Glad to hear you think it helped you out in the end though. Did you do ACGME only?
Yeah, just ACGME. The "will not rank" on the SLOE was only really a question of whether they were going to be honest or if they were gonna fib to make me/us look better. They chose the honest answer and I don't really have a problem with that... just wish there could have been something written in the comments (and maybe there was... I doubt it but I didn't see the letter) as to why that was put in but in the end I think anyone familiar with the place kinda knew why so it wasn't a big deal really.
 
I don't think USC, UCSD, or NYU are DO friendly at all. I don't think NYU EM has ever taken a DO before (not sure about this). I really do not recommend doing a rotation at NYU. In general, I would be reserved about doing rotations at only the very top residencies because the competition you will be facing will be intense. If you think you can manage, then more power to you. However if you f up even a single SLOE, it's going to be difficult for you.

I don't know how strong of a student you are in general but you should always apply broadly as a DO. That and always take Step 2.

There are top tier programs that are DO friendly. You just have to scout them out.
USC has taken one in the past, UCSD tells me they interview 2/year but have not taken one yet, NYU maybe never has. You're definitely right that they aren't exactly DO friendly. I guess my idea of rotating there was getting an sloe from a very well known program would look good, and if I want any chance at all of matching there that I would have to rotate.

That said, it's sounding like a bad idea from the responses so far. I think I can hold my own, and am generally well liked by residents on my rotations, but I understand my step 1 is not as high as many of my competitors at such programs.

What acgme programs in major metro areas that are DO friendly would you recommend? I believe there are some in Chicago and NY, but I'm on my phone so don't have access to the list I made right now.
 
This reminds me of that post in the "Osteopathic EM Programs" thread where someone got a great SLOE from Vanderbilt until the end when they say "Will not rank." Why risk that? Seems like you would be shooting yourself in the foot before you even get started.
Well, I honestly wasn't really aware of that risk, which one of the major reasons I'm posting here so I can gain some of that insight. What kind of programs would you recommend?
 
That was me but I don't think it was in the Osteopathic EM thread... don't really ever post there unless my Alzheimers is flaring. I didn't do it because I thought I was going to earn my way into Vandy... I did it because I knew that a SLOE from Vandy would carry weight nationally (and it did) and that just about everyone that commented on my SLOE said how good it was and that they totally understood why it said "will not rank". That, along with the fact that the Vandy visiting elective is HEAVY on teaching and sends you out on the road well prepared really made it worth it for me. Unless one of these places you look to rotate carry those characteristics then I'd say skip and find a place that will actually help you come interview season, not hurt you. Despite my SLOE saying "will not rank" I still think that letter helped me a lot.

To the OPs question... I don't know that any of those programs are considered "top tier" (maybe Highland... I guess) as much as they are considered "competitive" due to location. I'll be honest with you... you're Step 1 is definitely good enough to match but will not be good enough to get a serious look from some of the top tier programs. Sure, there might be a few that are considered top tier that will look but for the most part the chances at top tier places are kinda left to the 250+ type crowd and even then you rarely see anyone match at them. Sure, some will say Indiana or some place like that and... sure... if you say so. Take it as you will I guess but there are definitely places out there that DOs such as yourself stand a good if not great chance. From your list of dream places I'm guessing geography is a main interest in terms of what you're looking for more than the actual program itself, am I right?
Geography is a huge factor, you gathered correctly. For personal reasons I need to be within 30 minutes of a major metro area, which is essentially limited to LA, SF, Chicago, Boston, NYC, D.C. off the top of my head. And, I want to be at a program that will give me excellent training with a large volume that will set me up to get into a fellowship. I really don't want to be at a small program. I will be applying AOA as well, especially in the NYC and Chicago region, but my big concern is lack of fellowships. Any and all suggestions will be much appreciated.
 
Add Philly to your list. Morristown NJ is DO friendly, good teaching, has some fellowships. Cooper has at least one DO I know. Try Jefferson.
 
Geography is a huge factor, you gathered correctly. For personal reasons I need to be within 30 minutes of a major metro area, which is essentially limited to LA, SF, Chicago, Boston, NYC, D.C. off the top of my head. And, I want to be at a program that will give me excellent training with a large volume that will set me up to get into a fellowship. I really don't want to be at a small program. I will be applying AOA as well, especially in the NYC and Chicago region, but my big concern is lack of fellowships. Any and all suggestions will be much appreciated.
Ok, lets see... out of the places listed your best chances are probably in Chicago. UIC, Resurrection, and to a lesser extent Cook County have and will take DOs, Christ hasn't to my knowledge, Northwestern is pretty much a no go, and I think U of C is the same way. As for Boston, that's pretty much a no go. Some of the most competitive programs in the country are there and I can't think of any that would ever take a DO (with the Harvard connection or mentality prevailing in many). The exceptions would be Umass and Baystate but both are not in Boston but a good ways outside of it... more than 30 min. NYC... yeah, there are a few and honestly I can't remember any off the top of my head except Downstate and Staten Island but I do know there are like 3 or 4 that consider DOs. D.C... can't help ya there as I only know what I've seen on resident lists but I don't think there are too many DOs in that market from what I remember. That brings me to LA and CA as a whole... good luck. Yes, there are a couple of places in CA that take DOs (Kaweah and either Fresno or Davis... forget which) but outside of Kaweah which was new last year I don't think any ACGME CA program has more than one I believe. The question you have to ask yourself is this... why does USC and these other places only have ONE... why not more?

The answer can be a number of reasons but I'll tell you the few that I have actually been told by advisers and residents from various programs (and no, they weren't talking about why they don't take DOs in their OWN program... just about why they had heard DOs weren't taken in many places that had just one and that's it). First, a connection. Sometimes these DOs that were the "one taken awhile ago" type people had nepotism, perhaps worked for the hospital before school, had a close friend that was a resident or attending that advocated for them, etc. The point is that they had an "in" and the DO part was kinda overlooked. The biggest question is... why didn't they take another DO AFTER that first one? I mean if they were now open to DOs that makes sense, right? Most times there is a reason. The ones I've heard were these... An ex-Pitt resident told me his PD refused to consider DOs anymore because of an experience they had with their first (and I'm told only) DO resident. It was a nightmare and he said "no more". Supposedly it wasn't a competence issue, but a personality one (which makes you think he/she would recognize that DOs were fine... it was just a personal thing) but no matter the case the one chance that DOs got the bridge got burned. Truth to the story? Possibly... guess we'll see if they ever take a DO. Another reason is that the DO might have been selected by a PD/chair that is no longer there. Leadership changes can open and close programs instantly depending on what the leaderships opinions are about DOs and just cuz they had one 2 or 3 years ago and not sense does not necessarily mean they are "friendly".

Finally the sad but realistic truth... they don't have to take DOs. Most programs now are inundated with apps from stellar to great MD candidates and that means you have to shine that much brighter as a DO to stand a chance. For PDs, MD education is a known commodity that they don't have to question (too much) what kind of schooling or rotations the person did but DO... well, they aren't as familiar with that. Yes, everyone knows DOs are taught the same stuff as MDs (for the most part) and that many kill the boards as a result but what PDs wonder is what your DO rotations were like compared to the MD standards they are used to. Basically, some are willing to gamble on this if they think they have a great person on the table but others are not and just prefer to go with a more familiar commodity cuz, frankly, it's easier and there are plenty of good MD candidates that they don't "have to" dip into the DO pool to find a good applicant to fill their roster. Still, some like having the diversity that a DO or 2 bring to their staff, some see no difference, and those are the places you should be targeting. CA as a whole has been historically DO unfriendly for the most part and I think the big part you have to consider is why you think your chances would be any better than any DO in the past who has tried and failed to get into CA. Lets remember, there are several hundred DOs a year trying to get ACGME spots and every year they come up dry in CA (and Boston and some of the other places you mentioned) outside of one or two outliers... in history. Why do you think that is? Do you think you are that much better than every previous DO applicant? I can guarantee you that I know of applicants with 250+ boards that did not match and were very CA centric and got a lot of interviews and great letters... can you beat them? Maybe... but odds are against you. Now let me say I'm definitely not trying to be condescending towards you or DOs at all... just trying to pass along the reality of this as un-sugarcoated as possible so I apologize if it comes across brusk or harsh.

This would be a monumental task for you to match into one of the CA programs or Boston programs or most of the NYC programs or a few of the Chicago programs (NWtern, U of C, Christ), or many of the places you asked about. If you want some pure honest advice I would say this... find programs that have taken 2 or more DOs in the last 2-3 years and target them. That's where your chances are. Find the program you think you like the best and try to rotate there... and make sure you absolutely kill it. Get a great letter and use it to open doors to other places once interview season starts. If you aren't severely limited in the number of EM rotations you can do I'd suggest 3... your home to use as a "primer" and get you all good and taught up before you head on the road, THEN do your dream program next that fits the criteria above and go out and kill it. I say this because you will probably never be more ready to tackle the challenge than your second rotation as you'll know a good bit, still need to learn a lot so will come off as teachable, and will still be super enthusiastic. By the third one, believe it or not, you will be starting to wear down a bit. For your third I'd suggest a solid program that may not exactly be the best fit geographically but that you can accept and that you know takes DOs. Consider these to be mid tier type places in bigger cities or "smaller" big cities such as some of your upstate NY, AZ, IL, OH, MI, etc. These will provide you with a good safety net and possibly even a better fit than you expected or got from the bigger programs.

Finally, apply broadly... and I mean broadly. People will tell you "oh, you only need to apply to 30 or 40" and that might be true... but do you want to put stock in "what they say" and risk the unknown? I say apply to as many as you can financially manage. That's a personal opinion and some don't agree but that's just me. Here's my philosophy... you only get one chance to do this (hopefully, lol) so do you want to try and do it as cheaply as possible and save some cash or do you want to finish this off in the end and say "I did everything I possibly could to match at the place I wanted to and left no stone unturned"? I know my answer. This may mean applying to 60... 70... 80... maybe more places and just see how the invites shake out. Just because you get invited doesn't mean you have to accept but would you rather have more options and be able to turn some down or pick and choose your places to apply limit the number and then hope you get a fair response from only a few places just to make your numbers? Again, you can decline interviews if things are going great or you can cancel interviews if you get a much better response than you expected but you can NEVER get more interviews after you applied to too few. Just a personal choice you'll have to make. Yes, you should apply to all those CA, Boston, and NYC places that you want but when it comes to interview time consider all of those "reach" type programs and schedule you interviews with about 1/2 reach programs at the most and 1/2 more likely (or safety) programs. Really, it should be more like 1/4 reach and 3/4 safety/reasonable places but I know it would be hard to convince you or anyone to turn down invites from dream programs even if you know it's a long shot.
Holy shiot.... that's a wall of text. I apparently don't like paragraphs much but I think that should answer a lot of your questions. Others who have or are going this route feel free to chime in with agreements or disagreements to all for the OP. Best of luck.
 
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Downstate has taken three DOs for categorical spots in its history. A few were taken for em/im. Staten island, maimonides, queens, jacobi, Methodist, Beth Israel all have and take DOs.
 
Ok, lets see... out of the places listed your best chances are probably in Chicago. UIC, Resurrection, and to a lesser extent Cook County have and will take DOs, Christ hasn't to my knowledge, Northwestern is pretty much a no go, and I think U of C is the same way. As for Boston, that's pretty much a no go. Some of the most competitive programs in the country are there and I can't think of any that would ever take a DO (with the Harvard connection or mentality prevailing in many). The exceptions would be Umass and Baystate but both are not in Boston but a good ways outside of it... more than 30 min. NYC... yeah, there are a few and honestly I can't remember any off the top of my head except Downstate and Staten Island but I do know there are like 3 or 4 that consider DOs. D.C... can't help ya there as I only know what I've seen on resident lists but I don't think there are too many DOs in that market from what I remember. That brings me to LA and CA as a whole... good luck. Yes, there are a couple of places in CA that take DOs (Kaweah and either Fresno or Davis... forget which) but outside of Kaweah which was new last year I don't think any ACGME CA program has more than one I believe. The question you have to ask yourself is this... why does USC and these other places only have ONE... why not more?

The answer can be a number of reasons but I'll tell you the few that I have actually been told by advisers and residents from various programs (and no, they weren't talking about why they don't take DOs in their OWN program... just about why they had heard DOs weren't taken in many places that had just one and that's it). First, a connection. Sometimes these DOs that were the "one taken awhile ago" type people had nepotism, perhaps worked for the hospital before school, had a close friend that was a resident or attending that advocated for them, etc. The point is that they had an "in" and the DO part was kinda overlooked. The biggest question is... why didn't they take another DO AFTER that first one? I mean if they were now open to DOs that makes sense, right? Most times there is a reason. The ones I've heard were these... An ex-Pitt resident told me his PD refused to consider DOs anymore because of an experience they had with their first (and I'm told only) DO resident. It was a nightmare and he said "no more". Supposedly it wasn't a competence issue, but a personality one (which makes you think he/she would recognize that DOs were fine... it was just a personal thing) but no matter the case the one chance that DOs got the bridge got burned. Truth to the story? Possibly... guess we'll see if they ever take a DO. Another reason is that the DO might have been selected by a PD/chair that is no longer there. Leadership changes can open and close programs instantly depending on what the leaderships opinions are about DOs and just cuz they had one 2 or 3 years ago and not sense does not necessarily mean they are "friendly".

Finally the sad but realistic truth... they don't have to take DOs. Most programs now are inundated with apps from stellar to great MD candidates and that means you have to shine that much brighter as a DO to stand a chance. For PDs, MD education is a known commodity that they don't have to question (too much) what kind of schooling or rotations the person did but DO... well, they aren't as familiar with that. Yes, everyone knows DOs are taught the same stuff as MDs (for the most part) and that many kill the boards as a result but what PDs wonder is what your DO rotations were like compared to the MD standards they are used to. Basically, some are willing to gamble on this if they think they have a great person on the table but others are not and just prefer to go with a more familiar commodity cuz, frankly, it's easier and there are plenty of good MD candidates that they don't "have to" dip into the DO pool to find a good applicant to fill their roster. Still, some like having the diversity that a DO or 2 bring to their staff, some see no difference, and those are the places you should be targeting. CA as a whole has been historically DO unfriendly for the most part and I think the big part you have to consider is why you think your chances would be any better than any DO in the past who has tried and failed to get into CA. Lets remember, there are several hundred DOs a year trying to get ACGME spots and every year they come up dry in CA (and Boston and some of the other places you mentioned) outside of one or two outliers... in history. Why do you think that is? Do you think you are that much better than every previous DO applicant? I can guarantee you that I know of applicants with 250+ boards that did not match and were very CA centric and got a lot of interviews and great letters... can you beat them? Maybe... but odds are against you. Now let me say I'm definitely not trying to be condescending towards you or DOs at all... just trying to pass along the reality of this as un-sugarcoated as possible so I apologize if it comes across brusk or harsh.

This would be a monumental task for you to match into one of the CA programs or Boston programs or most of the NYC programs or a few of the Chicago programs (NWtern, U of C, Christ), or many of the places you asked about. If you want some pure honest advice I would say this... find programs that have taken 2 or more DOs in the last 2-3 years and target them. That's where your chances are. Find the program you think you like the best and try to rotate there... and make sure you absolutely kill it. Get a great letter and use it to open doors to other places once interview season starts. If you aren't severely limited in the number of EM rotations you can do I'd suggest 3... your home to use as a "primer" and get you all good and taught up before you head on the road, THEN do your dream program next that fits the criteria above and go out and kill it. I say this because you will probably never be more ready to tackle the challenge than your second rotation as you'll know a good bit, still need to learn a lot so will come off as teachable, and will still be super enthusiastic. By the third one, believe it or not, you will be starting to wear down a bit. For your third I'd suggest a solid program that may not exactly be the best fit geographically but that you can accept and that you know takes DOs. Consider these to be mid tier type places in bigger cities or "smaller" big cities such as some of your upstate NY, AZ, IL, OH, MI, etc. These will provide you with a good safety net and possibly even a better fit than you expected or got from the bigger programs.

Finally, apply broadly... and I mean broadly. People will tell you "oh, you only need to apply to 30 or 40" and that might be true... but do you want to put stock in "what they say" and risk the unknown? I say apply to as many as you can financially manage. That's a personal opinion and some don't agree but that's just me. Here's my philosophy... you only get one chance to do this (hopefully, lol) so do you want to try and do it as cheaply as possible and save some cash or do you want to finish this off in the end and say "I did everything I possibly could to match at the place I wanted to and left no stone unturned"? I know my answer. This may mean applying to 60... 70... 80... maybe more places and just see how the invites shake out. Just because you get invited doesn't mean you have to accept but would you rather have more options and be able to turn some down or pick and choose your places to apply limit the number and then hope you get a fair response from only a few places just to make your numbers? Again, you can decline interviews if things are going great or you can cancel interviews if you get a much better response than you expected but you can NEVER get more interviews after you applied to too few. Just a personal choice you'll have to make. Yes, you should apply to all those CA, Boston, and NYC places that you want but when it comes to interview time consider all of those "reach" type programs and schedule you interviews with about 1/2 reach programs at the most and 1/2 more likely (or safety) programs. Really, it should be more like 1/4 reach and 3/4 safety/reasonable places but I know it would be hard to convince you or anyone to turn down invites from dream programs even if you know it's a long shot.
Holy shiot.... that's a wall of text. I apparently don't like paragraphs much but I think that should answer a lot of your questions. Others who have or are going this route feel free to chime in with agreements or disagreements to all for the OP. Best of luck.


Agree with most of this.
 
QuackDO said:
wall of text

Firstly, thanks. I appreciate the substantive reply.

Again on my phone so limited in my response. I 100% agree my focus should be on places that have a history of taking DO's. What do you think of Hopkins? They have a decent history and an assistant PD is a DO. Are they a very strong program outside of their name? It's close enough to D.C. that I could split the driving distance.

Your theories on Cali programs sound like what I had suspected as well. I've heard things through the grapevine about these programs that make me believe I have basically no chance of being accepted... But I will probably apply anyways hoping for a miracle. Only way I have a chance is to apply and see if for some reason they really like me. I'm not so arrogant as to think I'm any better than the hundreds of other applicants, I can only hope I have a unique fit for the program that others don't. I doubt it, but who knows right?

My school allows up to 4 rotations in EM. I can only complete 2 while taking 4 weeks for board studying and finish auditions before interview season. It would be bad to be an audition and have to leave for interviews right?

So my new thought is to do an audition at Hopkins... Decently DO friendly and could hopefully net a letter from a well known place. Then rotate at one mid-tier... And if I somehow have time or take the risk of being on an audition during November go to one top tier. I'll be doing my home rotation during third year so I'll be relatively fresh for an audition after that I hope.
 
USC has taken one in the past, UCSD tells me they interview 2/year but have not taken one yet, NYU maybe never has. You're definitely right that they aren't exactly DO friendly. I guess my idea of rotating there was getting an sloe from a very well known program would look good, and if I want any chance at all of matching there that I would have to rotate.

That said, it's sounding like a bad idea from the responses so far. I think I can hold my own, and am generally well liked by residents on my rotations, but I understand my step 1 is not as high as many of my competitors at such programs.

What acgme programs in major metro areas that are DO friendly would you recommend? I believe there are some in Chicago and NY, but I'm on my phone so don't have access to the list I made right now.

For NYC, there is Jacobi, Beth Israel, Maimonides, and Downstate are all excellent and DO friendly.

The thing is, is that most residents will generally like their medical students. It's how much they and the attendings like you more compared to everyone else that matters. I strongly suggest you apply to what you consider middle tier and not be overconfident of your abilities. It's best to be cautious and almost paranoid than to blow it.
 
For NYC, there is Jacobi, Beth Israel, Maimonides, and Downstate are all excellent and DO friendly.

The thing is, is that most residents will generally like their medical students. It's how much they and the attendings like you more compared to everyone else that matters. I strongly suggest you apply to what you consider middle tier and not be overconfident of your abilities. It's best to be cautious and almost paranoid than to blow it.
My hesitation with Maimo, Beth Israel and downstate is their lack of trauma. I haven't looked into detail about their rotations, but I'm sure they get experience at outside sites, and I think I'd prefer a place that is a dedicated trauma center, like Jacobi/Bellevue/Barnabas/Kings county, etc, so that I don't rely on outside rotations for experience. Maimo is excellent medically though, I'll give you that.

I didn't mean to come off as overconfident. I will be trying to find more middle tier programs.
 
If you don't mind living in Las Vegas, they're known to be DO friendly.
 
My hesitation with Maimo, Beth Israel and downstate is their lack of trauma. I haven't looked into detail about their rotations, but I'm sure they get experience at outside sites, and I think I'd prefer a place that is a dedicated trauma center, like Jacobi/Bellevue/Barnabas/Kings county, etc, so that I don't rely on outside rotations for experience. Maimo is excellent medically though, I'll give you that.

I didn't mean to come off as overconfident. I will be trying to find more middle tier programs.

Lack of trauma at BI and Kings County? You for real? I'm pretty sure Kings County is Downstate.

Trauma is cookbook dude, don't focus so much on it. Bellevue is terrible for trauma so I don't know why you even considered it then.
 
My hesitation with Maimo, Beth Israel and downstate is their lack of trauma. I haven't looked into detail about their rotations, but I'm sure they get experience at outside sites, and I think I'd prefer a place that is a dedicated trauma center, like Jacobi/Bellevue/Barnabas/Kings county, etc, so that I don't rely on outside rotations for experience. Maimo is excellent medically though, I'll give you that.

I didn't mean to come off as overconfident. I will be trying to find more middle tier programs.

Kings county and Downstate are the same residency program. No lack of trauma there.
 
My hesitation with Maimo, Beth Israel and downstate is their lack of trauma. I haven't looked into detail about their rotations, but I'm sure they get experience at outside sites, and I think I'd prefer a place that is a dedicated trauma center, like Jacobi/Bellevue/Barnabas/Kings county, etc, so that I don't rely on outside rotations for experience. Maimo is excellent medically though, I'll give you that.

I didn't mean to come off as overconfident. I will be trying to find more middle tier programs.

I was very impressed with Maimo. And they go to Shock for trauma.

Just want to emphasize the importance of having at least 1 SLOE in by the time ERAS opens. Having two solid ones gets you a huge jump. You'll definitely want at least one from an ACGME program. So technically you can do auditions up until interviews, but give yourself plenty of time to get the rotations completed and letters written.

A whole month of board prep is overkill in my opinion.
 
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If you don't mind living in Las Vegas, they're known to be DO friendly.
Can't live in Vegas, they don't have the required industry for my significant other. :bored:

I was very impressed with Maimo. And they go to Shock for trauma.

Just want to emphasize the importance of having at least 1 SLOE in by the time ERAS opens. Having two solid ones gets you a huge jump. You'll definitely want at least one from an ACGME program. So technically you can do auditions up until interviews, but give yourself plenty of time to get the rotations completed and letters written.

A whole month of board prep is overkill in my opinion.
I will get an SLOE from my home DO program, and one from my first audition rotation. I'm very much stressing about WHERE to do that audition rotation though that will net me a good letter and is a program I have a shot at.

4 weeks is too much? I really want to score higher than my 235 to show an improvement. I took 5 dedicated weeks for Step 1 plus studying during classes, but feel I don't have the same amount of time to study while on rotations for Step 2.
Lack of trauma at BI and Kings County? You for real? I'm pretty sure Kings County is Downstate.

Trauma is cookbook dude, don't focus so much on it. Bellevue is terrible for trauma so I don't know why you even considered it then.
Ahh.. didn't mean to offend anyone lol. I have personal experience from being a medic in NYC a few years back, I wasn't aware Kings was a site for Downstate. I didn't personally transport much to Bellevue (I was mostly in Brooklyn and the Bronx), but I was told from other medics they got decent trauma.
Kings county and Downstate are the same residency program. No lack of trauma there.
My mistake.
 
downstate's program has kings county as its main site and it is probably the best place for trauma in NYC. jacobi is probably the only other knife/gun club in NYC. but like I said, downstate is not very DO friendly (3 in 19 years by my count, but I'm not counting the few EM/IM DO's).

beth israel is now a part of the icahn/mt. sinai network and you rotate at elmhurst in queens for trauma, which is a pretty good place for it from what I hear. but yes, BI and maimo lack real trauma when you aren't on your trauma rotations. also, shock trauma has a sexy name but apparently rotations there are overrated according to attendings I have spoken to. they have so many residents from all over the country rotating there, UMEM kind of owns it, and outside residents generally don't get much autonomy.

NY's trauma designations are changing though in the near future and maimo will do whatever it takes to be a level 1 trauma center so they can increase their trauma numbers.

but as someone pointed out, residents and attendings do say trauma is pretty cookbook so any program will give you adequate training in that regard.

as for where you should do your away rotation, i'd pick a place that has at least 1 DO per class in a location you find desirable. programs tend to know each other so the SLOE you get from there will get your foot in the door in that region. cali is really the toughest region to break into though so bear that in mind. if you're feeling adventurous do 1 away in chicago and 1 in cali and 1 in NYC. diversify!
 
I will get an SLOE from my home DO program, and one from my first audition rotation. I'm very much stressing about WHERE to do that audition rotation though that will net me a good letter and is a program I have a shot at.

4 weeks is too much? I really want to score higher than my 235 to show an improvement. I took 5 dedicated weeks for Step 1 plus studying during classes, but feel I don't have the same amount of time to study while on rotations for Step 2.

Ahh.. didn't mean to offend anyone lol. I have personal experience from being a medic in NYC a few years back, I wasn't aware Kings was a site for Downstate. I didn't personally transport much to Bellevue (I was mostly in Brooklyn and the Bronx), but I was told from other medics they got decent trauma.

My mistake.

If you want to show that you are willing to move, you should at least 1 audition in a different state. In addition, I'm not sure how much a DO SLOE is worth but you definitely want one from an ACGME residency.

The amount of time you need for Step 2 depends on how much you learned during clinicals. If you studied well throughout, then 3-4 is all you need. In terms of improvement, you want to do at least 5-10 points. I did a little better on Step 2 than 1 and I got asked why didn't I get a 10 point jump (wtf).

I am absolutely not offended lol, I just wanted you to know.
 
I ran into DOs while interviewing at UArizona and at Christiana, so I'm assuming those are both DO friendly, and they both seemed like really strong programs to me. Christiana is nearish to Philly, and some of the residents said they commute. I doubt Tucson has this secret "industry," but maybe Philadelphia does.
 
downstate's program has kings county as its main site and it is probably the best place for trauma in NYC. jacobi is probably the only other knife/gun club in NYC. but like I said, downstate is not very DO friendly (3 in 19 years by my count, but I'm not counting the few EM/IM DO's).

beth israel is now a part of the icahn/mt. sinai network and you rotate at elmhurst in queens for trauma, which is a pretty good place for it from what I hear. but yes, BI and maimo lack real trauma when you aren't on your trauma rotations. also, shock trauma has a sexy name but apparently rotations there are overrated according to attendings I have spoken to. they have so many residents from all over the country rotating there, UMEM kind of owns it, and outside residents generally don't get much autonomy.

NY's trauma designations are changing though in the near future and maimo will do whatever it takes to be a level 1 trauma center so they can increase their trauma numbers.

but as someone pointed out, residents and attendings do say trauma is pretty cookbook so any program will give you adequate training in that regard.

as for where you should do your away rotation, i'd pick a place that has at least 1 DO per class in a location you find desirable. programs tend to know each other so the SLOE you get from there will get your foot in the door in that region. cali is really the toughest region to break into though so bear that in mind. if you're feeling adventurous do 1 away in chicago and 1 in cali and 1 in NYC. diversify!
Great advice, thanks.

Sorry to repeat myself, but do you have an opinion about Johns Hopkins program? If you were to pick only 1 Chicago and 1 NYC program that was DO friendly, which would it be? After all this great advice, I will rotate at one DO friendly program as my first rotation to get an SLOE in time for ERAS. Then I'll study and take boards (my school has an early requirement to take Step 2). Then attempt one more rotation in whatever city I didn't rotate in initially, and maybe a third rotation in January at a Cali program just for the hell of it (I have family in the area anyways so it will be cheap), to gain more experience and give them a second look at me assuming I received an interview.

So, my order:
1) SLOE/Audition at NYC, Chicago or Hopkins
2) Boards
3) Audition at NYC, Chicago or Hopkins (whatever I didn't do)
4) Easy elective so I can go on interviews
5) Audition at Cali program and hope it could affect their rank list? I dunno
 
I ran into DOs while interviewing at UArizona and at Christiana, so I'm assuming those are both DO friendly, and they both seemed like really strong programs to me. Christiana is nearish to Philly, and some of the residents said they commute. I doubt Tucson has this secret "industry," but maybe Philadelphia does.
lol... the industry is hedge funds. Thanks for the info.
 
If you want to show that you are willing to move, you should at least 1 audition in a different state. In addition, I'm not sure how much a DO SLOE is worth but you definitely want one from an ACGME residency.

The amount of time you need for Step 2 depends on how much you learned during clinicals. If you studied well throughout, then 3-4 is all you need. In terms of improvement, you want to do at least 5-10 points. I did a little better on Step 2 than 1 and I got asked why didn't I get a 10 point jump (wtf).

I am absolutely not offended lol, I just wanted you to know.
Yes, I absolutely will do one on the East Coast or Midwest to show I am willing to move. That was my main reasoning for choosing that part of the country for my SLOE actually. Although I have lived in NYC before so it probably won't be too hard to convince them I'm ready to come back. That's pretty bizarre about the 10 point question, maybe they were just trying to see how you handled the question?
 
Personally, I think it's best to get your boards out of the way ASAP. I took mine in june and then I never had to worry about them again. I think programs expect a solid jump because the mean score on step 1 when i took it was 224 and for step 2 it was 237. So if the average jumps by 13 points, they expect your score to do the same. It's daunting, but it's doable.

I know this doesn't really answer your question but I think any of the programs we mentioned would be great choices. You should look into them more individually to find which one might appeal more to you. You can't really go wrong with any of them. The deciding factor may just be whichever program is easier to set up a rotation with (least amount of paperwork).

I'm not too familiar with Hopkins EM, but I'm going to assume they have a great program since it's Hopkins. It isn't classically listed among the "top" EM programs, but I see no reason why it wouldn't be highly regarded. Good location, tons of resources, very academic, and lots of in-house fellowships.
 
Great advice, thanks.

Sorry to repeat myself, but do you have an opinion about Johns Hopkins program? If you were to pick only 1 Chicago and 1 NYC program that was DO friendly, which would it be? After all this great advice, I will rotate at one DO friendly program as my first rotation to get an SLOE in time for ERAS. Then I'll study and take boards (my school has an early requirement to take Step 2). Then attempt one more rotation in whatever city I didn't rotate in initially, and maybe a third rotation in January at a Cali program just for the hell of it (I have family in the area anyways so it will be cheap), to gain more experience and give them a second look at me assuming I received an interview.
Really can't answer about Hopkins other than what others have kinda said... good program but not necessarily "top tier" despite the Hopkins name. I think it carries a bit of weight but not sure how well known the PD/faculty are known on the national scene. Hopkins EM is NOT Hopkins IM in terms of name recognition. With that said, Hopkins has 3 DOs... 2 4th years and 1 first year so yeah, they've taken DOs but uncertain how "friendly" that is but at least there is a chance. I do know of a great guy from a year ago who was in the 240+ range (DO of course) that rotated there, got honors on the rotation and a great SLOR, ranked it first and did not match there. May mean nothing, may mean something... just food for thought. The other factor that we haven't mentioned that is pertinent to this particular program and to others as well is that Hopkins is a 4 yr program. To some that's a no go, to others it's ok... just your feel for that.
As for Chicago, if you're going to rotate there I'd suggest Resurrection or UIC. Resurrection doesn't use VSAS (or didn't last year) so you need to hit them EARLY (read that as like now) or they will fill up and UIC lets you rotate and any one of their 4 sites you choose... if there is room. They also don't participate in VSAS (again, didn't last year, not sure about this year) so you can find their info on their website as far as application deadlines and stuff and site choices. If you want the "most" bang for your buck in terms of Chicago you might want to look at Cook County. You will literally work your ass off and learn a lot and it may give a leg up getting in there. Downside is (so I have heard from people who rotated there... I didn't) they don't put a lot of emphasis on the comments section of your SLOE so it tends to be kinda underwhelming to read, BUT an honors from Cook is kinda like a nice stamp of approval just about any program in the country will notice. It's a toss up.
 
Really great info, thank you both. This has been incredibly helpful for me.
 
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