Daniel Stern Salary survey

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EctopicFetus

EctopicFetus

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Anyone have the most recent survey? I used to get them for free but I missed this last yr.

PM me please
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Members don't see this ad :)
You don't need to post it. I already know what it says. It says that you are all rich, greedy, overpaid doctors, that don't work enough hours.

:)

(...and if you just agreed to make less, our healthcare woes would go away, the sick would be healed, the ice caps would stop melting, and the endangered African Rainbird would start signing again.)
 
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RustedFox said:
Post it! Post it!

:)
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I generally do, every year (not the entire thing, but a few figures from it.)
2007- http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/2007-em-compensation-data.399219/#post-5126497
2010- http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/daniel-sterns-is-out.729387/
2011- http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/compensation-survey.844596/#post-11371203
2012- http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/cant-reconcile-the-surveys.926007/#post-12696111

I can't seem to find my copy of the 2013 survey, but 2014 should be out soon. I think the average salary in it was $326K.
 
How is the MGMA survey viewed as a metric of incomes. Plenty of emergency docs polled there (though probably less than this one if it is EM specific)
 
I found my 2013 survey.. Thanks.
 
Just got my copy of the 2014 today. I think salaries went down 3-5%, but I can't find 2013 to compare directly.

50th% for total compensation:

Employees - $300K for 1700 hours, $170 an hour (yes, I know those figures don't actually work together, they're just what's reported and averaged)
Partners- $312,500 for 1582 hours, $185 an hour (surprised to see employees and partners so close together in this year's survey, even with the lower hours and higher hourly)
Independent contractors- $352,000 for 1769 hours, $200 an hour (also surprised to see contractors ahead of partners)

Guess I'll be grateful for what I've got.

Overall 10th% = $248K, $120 an hour, 90th% = $500K, $240 an hour

Lots of other info in there that might be worth buying if you're looking for a new job or looking to hire.
 
The White Coat Investor said:
Just got my copy of the 2014 today. I think salaries went down 3-5%, but I can't find 2013 to compare directly.

50th% for total compensation:

Employees - $300K for 1700 hours, $170 an hour (yes, I know those figures don't actually work together, they're just what's reported and averaged)
Partners- $312,500 for 1582 hours, $185 an hour (surprised to see employees and partners so close together in this year's survey, even with the lower hours and higher hourly)
Independent contractors- $352,000 for 1769 hours, $200 an hour (also surprised to see contractors ahead of partners)

Guess I'll be grateful for what I've got.

Overall 10th% = $248K, $120 an hour, 90th% = $500K, $240 an hour

Lots of other info in there that might be worth buying if you're looking for a new job or looking to hire.
Click to expand...

Of course contractors make more, because they many times don't get benefits and/or have to pay for their own malpractice insurance and things like that. So most EMs make 300-350k apparently, with those at the 90% percentile making 500k. Nothing shocking.
 
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Chickenandwaffles said:
Of course contractors make more, because they many times don't get benefits and/or have to pay for their own malpractice insurance and things like that. So most EMs make 300-350k apparently, with those at the 90% percentile making 500k. Nothing shocking.
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Whitecoat investor is pretty financially savvy (understatement). Not to put words in his mouth, but I don't think any of us were surprised to see independent contractors making more than employees. That's pretty standard and obvious as you pointed out in your post. What was surprising, was to see this survey showing independent contractors making more than partners. That's not even close to my experience in my area. Where I am, partners are making $250-$300 an hour and independent contractors are making $175-$225 an hour[/QUOTE]
 
Hercules said:
Whitecoat investor is pretty financially savvy (understatement). Not to put words in his mouth, but I don't think any of us were surprised to see independent contractors making more than employees. That's pretty standard and obvious as you pointed out in your post. What was surprising, was to see this survey showing independent contractors making more than partners. That's not even close to my experience in my area. Where I am, partners are making $250-$300 an hour and independent contractors are making $175-$225 an hour
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[/QUOTE]

I looked at the survey listing the different specialties and what they make and I'm sorry but those numbers seem highly inflated. It pretty much lists almost every specialty making at 75th% percentile over 400k, and the median at 300k + for most specialties. It seems highly inflated. I think that either benefits and other compensation things are going out, or something is out of whack.
 

I looked at the survey listing the different specialties and what they make and I'm sorry but those numbers seem highly inflated. It pretty much lists almost every specialty making at 75th% percentile over 400k, and the median at 300k + for most specialties. It seems highly inflated. I think that either benefits and other compensation things are going out, or something is out of whack.[/QUOTE]

And again the 250-300$ an hour fits roughly with the 500k range annually. Those who are at the 90% percentile are likely to be partners, which are likely to be the ones making the most in general. Recently employed new docs are not likely to be partners or 90 percentile earners, so it's reasonable that they are the ones making the least.
 
brk81144 said:
So 1700 hours is average?
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Good gravy I hope not. That's 142 hours per month, or 33.8 hours per week every week of the year. Which, if I'm not mistaken, is actually more like 51 hours per week after applying the Birdstrike Formula. Seems entirely unsustainable.
 
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I beat the average by a good bit of change... and no waaay did I average 142 a month. I'd have shot myself.
 
RustedFox said:
I beat the average by a good bit of change... and no waaay did I average 142 a month. I'd have shot myself.
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I would not brag about how little you work for whatever you make. That has happened to a lot of specialties and reimbursement has been cut. Do you guys get paid for the hours worked or do you get paid for 40 regardless of what you work? I guess I never got that. I've seen a lot of EM docs work 32 or 36 weeks. Do you get paid for 40 regardless?
 
Chickenandwaffles said:
I would not brag about how little you work for whatever you make. That has happened to a lot of specialties and reimbursement has been cut. Do you guys get paid for the hours worked or do you get paid for 40 regardless of what you work? I guess I never got that. I've seen a lot of EM docs work 32 or 36 weeks. Do you get paid for 40 regardless?
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EM docs generally get paid an hourly rate. Nothing more, nothing less. The more hours you work, the more you get paid. What you have to understand is that working a 40 hour EM week would be like doing 70 or 80 hours in many other fields. The total lack of breaks on shift, stress level, circadian changes and wildly vacillating schedules, and various other demands are something you have to experience to understand. Honest to goodness, as a resident my 80 hour ICU weeks are way, and I mean WAY easier on my body than my 50 hour ER weeks. No contest.

Oh, you also have to consider that an 8 hour ED shift often means an 8 hour shift plus 2 hours of charting afterwards, which you are not paid for. Often there is not any time for charting on shift.
 
Mr. Hat said:
EM docs generally get paid an hourly rate. Nothing more, nothing less. The more hours you work, the more you get paid. What you have to understand is that working a 40 hour EM week would be like doing 70 or 80 hours in many other fields. The total lack of breaks on shift, stress level, circadian changes and wildly vacillating schedules, and various other demands are something you have to experience to understand. Honest to goodness as a resident, my 80 hour ICU weeks are way, and I mean WAY easier on my body than my 50 hour ER weeks. No contest.
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Yes I realize they get paid an hourly rate. But many places state "3 12 hr shifts". So you get paid for 36 hrs? Many nurses for example get paid for 40 when they work 36 so I'm just asking. I don't really know.

Why do oyu think that working a 40hr EM week is like 70 or 80 in other medical fields? there are plenty of stressful medical specialties.
 
Chickenandwaffles said:
Yes I realize they get paid an hourly rate. But many places state "3 12 hr shifts". So you get paid for 36 hrs? Many nurses for example get paid for 40 when they work 36 so I'm just asking. I don't really know.
Why do oyu think that working a 40hr EM week is like 70 or 80 in other medical fields? there are plenty of stressful medical specialties.
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We just get paid for what we work. As for comparison to other fields, see my above post. Others may chime in too.
 
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Chickenandwaffles said:
Yes I realize they get paid an hourly rate. But many places state "3 12 hr shifts". So you get paid for 36 hrs? Many nurses for example get paid for 40 when they work 36 so I'm just asking. I don't really know.

Why do oyu think that working a 40hr EM week is like 70 or 80 in other medical fields? there are plenty of stressful medical specialties.
Click to expand...

I think you just have to experience it for yourself.

In undergrad, med students would say the pace is so much faster - and most wouldn't believe. Residents say that the work is harder, some also chose to not believe.

I've learned to just respect those with 10 years more experience and just assume they are right.

In reality, once you get there if it's easier for you then great. But no amount of explaining is going to simulate the reality. Just like you can't explain medical school to a high school student.

Some people are paid hourly, some are on annual contracts, some are contracted and hourly - there's all different ways to pay people. Just like many other careers.
 
@JackShephard said:
I think you just have to experience it for yourself.

In undergrad, med students would say the pace is so much faster - and most wouldn't believe. Residents say that the work is harder, some also chose to not believe.

I've learned to just respect those with 10 years more experience and just assume they are right.

In reality, once you get there if it's easier for you then great. But no amount of explaining is going to simulate the reality. Just like you can't explain medical school to a high school student.

Some people are paid hourly, some are on annual contracts, some are contracted and hourly - there's all different ways to pay people. Just like many other careers.
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I was just curious, that is all. I'm not in EM so I can't say one way or the other. And I think residency is far better than med school. Residency makes sense and it's great taking care of actual people. Med school is an artificial, and frequently pointless environment filled with pointless requirements and crap that really don't matter in the long term.
 
Hercules said:
What was surprising, was to see this survey showing independent contractors making more than partners. That's not even close to my experience in my area. Where I am, partners are making $250-$300 an hour and independent contractors are making $175-$225 an hour
Click to expand...
[/QUOTE]

That was my point. Not sure what happened with this year's survey, unless a bunch of partnerships did terribly.

I agree that ICs should be paid at least 10% more than employees due to lack of benefits and having to pay both halves of payroll taxes.
 
Chickenandwaffles said:
I was just curious, that is all. I'm not in EM so I can't say one way or the other. And I think residency is far better than med school. Residency makes sense and it's great taking care of actual people. Med school is an artificial, and frequently pointless environment filled with pointless requirements and crap that really don't matter in the long term.
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?

Weird. I took care of people both in med school and residency. At times, both were a bit pointless with pointless requirements and crap that really didn't matter. I'm not sure I would generalize to say that one was dog poo and the other was all butterflies and rainbows.
 
Chickenandwaffles said:
Yes I realize they get paid an hourly rate. But many places state "3 12 hr shifts". So you get paid for 36 hrs? Many nurses for example get paid for 40 when they work 36 so I'm just asking. I don't really know.
Click to expand...

Who do you think is paying you? I pay myself out of my earnings after my expenses. I assure you that insurance companies and patients don't pay me for 4 hours critical care time when I only do 32 minutes. The question you should be asking is why someone is paying a nurse for hours they don't work.
 
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Are these numbers with or without benefits included?
 
The White Coat Investor said:
Who do you think is paying you? I pay myself out of my earnings after my expenses. I assure you that insurance companies and patients don't pay me for 4 hours critical care time when I only do 32 minutes. The question you should be asking is why someone is paying a nurse for hours they don't work.
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Oh I agree with you completely. I don't think they should be paid for more hours than they work for. But I was under the impression that you guys worked in that fashion as well. I guess I was wrong, sorry about that!
 
The White Coat Investor said:
?

Weird. I took care of people both in med school and residency. At times, both were a bit pointless with pointless requirements and crap that really didn't matter. I'm not sure I would generalize to say that one was dog poo and the other was all butterflies and rainbows.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying that, just personally, I found residency to be much better than med school. I don't generalize to everyone, just my experience. I felt med school involved a never-ending level of tests, requirements, meetings, etc. Residency is the real deal - you are the doctor, you are the one really taking care of the patient, etc.
 
Chickenandwaffles said:
Oh I agree with you completely. I don't think they should be paid for more hours than they work for. But I was under the impression that you guys worked in that fashion as well. I guess I was wrong, sorry about that!
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Gonna have to ask for proof that they're paid hours they don't work.
Every hospital I've worked at, full time nurses work 7 of 14. They get 36 hours one week, 48 the next (including overtime). I've never seen them paid for 40 when they work 36.
 
Chickenandwaffles said:
I'm not saying that, just personally, I found residency to be much better than med school. I don't generalize to everyone, just my experience. I felt med school involved a never-ending level of tests, requirements, meetings, etc. Residency is the real deal - you are the doctor, you are the one really taking care of the patient, etc.
Click to expand...

Wait, what residency are you in (or completed)?
 
Hercules said:
Whitecoat investor is pretty financially savvy (understatement). Not to put words in his mouth, but I don't think any of us were surprised to see independent contractors making more than employees. That's pretty standard and obvious as you pointed out in your post. What was surprising, was to see this survey showing independent contractors making more than partners. That's not even close to my experience in my area. Where I am, partners are making $250-$300 an hour and independent contractors are making $175-$225 an hour
Click to expand...
[/QUOTE]

My guess (assuming it's not a giant typo) is that it's a regional thing. The highest paying regions tend to be in the South, where ICs are the dominant form of ED staffing. Within a region partners may pay more than ICs, but there is a disproportionate representation of ICs in the higher paying regions and partnerships in the lower paying regions.
 
Chickenandwaffles said:
I'm not saying that, just personally, I found residency to be much better than med school. I don't generalize to everyone, just my experience. I felt med school involved a never-ending level of tests, requirements, meetings, etc. Residency is the real deal - you are the doctor, you are the one really taking care of the patient, etc.
Click to expand...

The med school at which I did my residency didn't allow their med students to do much, so they probably felt similarly. As a med student, I worked 120 hour weeks, wrote all the notes, was the first call for the nurses on my Sub-Is (3-4 med students and a resident on that rotation, no interns), did LPs and lacs etc etc. Other schools don't even let the med studs write the notes.
 
The White Coat Investor said:
The med school at which I did my residency didn't allow their med students to do much, so they probably felt similarly. As a med student, I worked 120 hour weeks, wrote all the notes, was the first call for the nurses on my Sub-Is (3-4 med students and a resident on that rotation, no interns), did LPs and lacs etc etc. Other schools don't even let the med studs write the notes.
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120 hr weeks!?:dead:

Not even sure how that's possible. Our busiest trauma surgeons don't work that much.
 
The White Coat Investor said:
The med school at which I did my residency didn't allow their med students to do much, so they probably felt similarly. As a med student, I worked 120 hour weeks, wrote all the notes, was the first call for the nurses on my Sub-Is (3-4 med students and a resident on that rotation, no interns), did LPs and lacs etc etc. Other schools don't even let the med studs write the notes.
Click to expand...

Same. I worked 100+ hours on some rotations in med school. I got plenty of tubes, lines, lac repairs, etc. At my residency program, med students are lucky if they graduate with a handful of CVLs - and that's if they're aggressive about it.
 
Going by everything I've read, I figured 50th percentile partner would be at least $200. That's disheartening.
 
@JackShephard said:
120 hr weeks!?:dead:

Not even sure how that's possible. Our busiest trauma surgeons don't work that much.
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Wow! How the world has changed that this seems impossible. Here is how it is possible. You go to work/school at 5 am on Monday. You leave at 5 pm on Tuesday. That's 36 hours. You then go to work/school at 5 am on Wednesday and leave late at 8 pm Wednesday. We're up to 51. You go in on Thursday at 5 am and leave at 5 pm on Friday. That's another 36 hours, we're up to 87 hours and we haven't even hit the weekend yet. Saturday you're on for 12 more hours (99) and then Sunday you're on call again for another 17 hours (116.) Not quite 120, and I certainly didn't do that every week or even every rotation, but I did it enough to know I didn't want to do it the rest of my life.

There are still plenty of attending trauma surgeons who have "weekend calls" who go to work at 5 am on Friday and are on call until 5 am on Monday, 72 hours in one shift. Add in a few more shifts during the week and it's easy to clear 100 hours.

I much prefer my 27 hours/week average.
 
The White Coat Investor said:
Wow! How the world has changed that this seems impossible. Here is how it is possible. You go to work/school at 5 am on Monday. You leave at 5 pm on Tuesday. That's 36 hours. You then go to work/school at 5 am on Wednesday and leave late at 8 pm Wednesday. We're up to 51. You go in on Thursday at 5 am and leave at 5 pm on Friday. That's another 36 hours, we're up to 87 hours and we haven't even hit the weekend yet. Saturday you're on for 12 more hours (99) and then Sunday you're on call again for another 17 hours (116.) Not quite 120, and I certainly didn't do that every week or even every rotation, but I did it enough to know I didn't want to do it the rest of my life.

There are still plenty of attending trauma surgeons who have "weekend calls" who go to work at 5 am on Friday and are on call until 5 am on Monday, 72 hours in one shift. Add in a few more shifts during the week and it's easy to clear 100 hours.

I much prefer my 27 hours/week average.
Click to expand...

That's basically how my experience with surgery went every time I did surgery (4 months). They had us in at 5 and we left between 6 and 7. And one day a week (Mon-Thursday) you pulled a 37 hour shift. And you either did a 24 Friday, a 24 Saturday or a 37 Sunday.

The only solace I had is that most residents didn't wake up the med student after 10 or 11pm unless there was a surgery to go to. Which at one hospital there almost never was and at the other was a fact of life.
 
Hmm..any reason the averages are down this year? Similar people surveyed? How/why is this a loss from last year?
 
Keep in mind, these surveys are not scientific by our standards, no matter how much the companies say they are. They are exactly that: surveys.

Don't assume they are gospel, and take note that can have large variations from survey company to survey company.
 
Acep #s usually look inflated because they show total compensation (base + benefits + moonlighting + admin pay + everything else).

But this isnt what most people think of when they are looking for a job. Most people think of base salary.

Your base may be 325, 400 after bonuses and/or moonlighting, and then 450-500 once you include benefit package. But when you are strictly looking at hourly rate and base work hours, then base salary will look less than aceps average looking at total compensation.

All that being said, our specialty is making more money than I ever dreamed when I graduated 8 years ago. Its hard to believe how quickly salaries shot up.
 
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