Datex-Ohmeda vs Narkomed

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Noyac

Noyac

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Ok, let's hear it. Which one is your favorite and why?
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Have both at work. Both get the job done but I prefer the Ohmeda simply for the ventilator with more than one mode. On the Narkomed your options are volume control or volume control. That and it irritates me that changing the flows on the Narkomed changes your tidal volumes.
 
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Noyac said:
If they had the same modes would you still prefer the Ohmeda?
Click to expand...

If they had the same modes and you got rid of the flows affecting the TV's on the Narkomed then I really wouldn't have a preference one way or the other.

I don't know what it is, but you old farts really love those ancient Narkomeds for some reason.
;):poke:
 
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Where I work I think they have 3 different machines. All I know is that I hate, hate HATE the GE AISYS machines. HAAAAATTTEEEE!!!!!!

Everything is friggin electronic. EVERYTHING!!! You want to add nitrous? You have to click a bunch of buttons. Want to adjust flows? Click a bunch of buttons. Want to adjust vaporizer settings? Click a bunch of buttons. And the vaporizers are these cartridges that you have to pop out and then fill and then pop back in. The worst.

I actually find them dangerous. First of all, there's no knobs, so that intuitive touch feel you get from turning the O2/Air/Nitrous knobs is gone as well as the vaporizer dials. There's something so simple as turning the vaporizer clockwise/counter clockwise and adjusting the knobs that you can't get touching a computer screen. It becomes second nature and you can almost do it without looking or thinking. I had one pediatric case where I was giving a break, and I look at the chart and I see that there is nitrous going. When the CRNA came back I asked why they decided to use nitrous, and they said "Oh I thought you wanted it to stay on. This was one of the first time using the machine, and I didn't realize that the nitrous had to be turned off. So when on the screen I dialed the Fi02 down to 40%, I thought it was O2/Air, but it was actually O2/nitrous since we had started off with an inhaltaion induction. So then you have to click on air flow menu and click off nitrous and click on air/O2. It's so annoying.

I sound like an old man with this rant, but this is almost useless technology.
 
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We have Aisys machines too. While I don't think they are dangerous, they are irritating AF for all the reasons you mentioned. At least they kept the simple lever for vent/spont. On the Drager Apollos you have to hit 2 buttons to switch and that drives me nuts.
 
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SaltyDog said:
If they had the same modes and you got rid of the flies affecting the TV's on the Narkomed then I really wouldn't have a preference one way or the other.

I don't know what it is, but you old farts really love those ancient Narkomeds for some reason.
;):poke:
Click to expand...

I cut my teeth on Narkomed in the 1990s. There was no sweeter feel than the German click of throwing the lever to go from bag to vent. Resembled the gearshift feel on a fine sports car. And the pistol-grip and thumb-scroll on the info screen was fun. Haven't seen one of these machines in years.
 

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Monty Python said:
I cut my teeth on Narkomed in the 1990s. There was no sweeter feel than the German click of throwing the lever to go from bag to vent. Resembled the gearshift feel on a fine sports car. And the pistol-grip and thumb-scroll on the info screen was fun. Haven't seen one of these machines in years.
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The best machine EVER!
 
SaltyDog said:
Call me crazy, but I prefer a modern reliable machine that doesn't require frequent troubleshooting.
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Even one without most of the knobs the old ones had? I can't stand those. The latest generation GEs I have worked on were like that, and all the self-testing in the world could not compensate for the daily frustrations.

An anesthesia machine should be like a DSLR camera , with easily accessible knobs/buttons for all pro-level settings. One shouldn't have to wade through menus for frequent stuff, such as setting gas concentrations. It shouldn't feel like trying to manually set up a photo on a point and shoot camera.
 
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FFP said:
Even one without most of the knobs the old ones had? I can't stand those. The latest generation GEs I have worked on were like that, and all the self-testing in the world could not compensate for the daily frustrations.

An anesthesia machine should be like a DSLR camera , with easily accessible knobs/buttons for all pro-level settings. One shouldn't have to wade through menus for frequent stuff, such as setting gas concentrations. It shouldn't feel like trying to manually set up a photo on a point and shoot camera.
Click to expand...

Dude, you really have to read the whole thread. I've already mentioned how I find the newest generation of machines like the Aisys and Apollo irritating and cumbersome. Just give me a machine with traditional twisty top vaporizers, real flow tubes/knobs, a nice fat lever to switch from bag to vent, modern vent modes, and devoid of antiquated flaws (like TV changing when I adjust the flows) and I'll be a happy camper. The model of GE/Ohmeda's just before they came out with the Aisys casette monstrosity is my favorite.
 
Also with the GE Aisys, I find filling the desflurane cartridge so cumbersome. When you lift the bottle it lifts the carridge cause it is so light... I dunno just seems like a PITA to me...

vaporizers.jpg
 
sigrhoillusion said:
Where I work I think they have 3 different machines. All I know is that I hate, hate HATE the GE AISYS machines. HAAAAATTTEEEE!!!!!!

Everything is friggin electronic. EVERYTHING!!! You want to add nitrous? You have to click a bunch of buttons. Want to adjust flows? Click a bunch of buttons. Want to adjust vaporizer settings? Click a bunch of buttons. And the vaporizers are these cartridges that you have to pop out and then fill and then pop back in. The worst.

I actually find them dangerous. First of all, there's no knobs, so that intuitive touch feel you get from turning the O2/Air/Nitrous knobs is gone as well as the vaporizer dials. There's something so simple as turning the vaporizer clockwise/counter clockwise and adjusting the knobs that you can't get touching a computer screen. It becomes second nature and you can almost do it without looking or thinking. I had one pediatric case where I was giving a break, and I look at the chart and I see that there is nitrous going. When the CRNA came back I asked why they decided to use nitrous, and they said "Oh I thought you wanted it to stay on. This was one of the first time using the machine, and I didn't realize that the nitrous had to be turned off. So when on the screen I dialed the Fi02 down to 40%, I thought it was O2/Air, but it was actually O2/nitrous since we had started off with an inhaltaion induction. So then you have to click on air flow menu and click off nitrous and click on air/O2. It's so annoying.

I sound like an old man with this rant, but this is almost useless technology.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you need a good orientation to the machine. I spent a couple hours with the rep going through all the ins and outs with a demo machine before I ever used it in the OR. Knowing how to adjust flows and select gases is pretty basic and fundamental knowledge of this machine. Mistaking/mixing up air and nitrous isn't easy if you're paying attention since the flows and indicators are the appropriate green, blue, and yellow depending what's in use. We use Aisys machines exclusively at one of our facilities. They've become second nature to those of us who actually use them every day, and we actually hate going to other places with the older Aestiva machines. Aisys machines are far more versatile with vent modes and user configuration, and are designed to allow accurate low flows.
 
jwk said:
Sounds like you need a good orientation to the machine. I spent a couple hours with the rep going through all the ins and outs with a demo machine before I ever used it in the OR. Knowing how to adjust flows and select gases is pretty basic and fundamental knowledge of this machine. Mistaking/mixing up air and nitrous isn't easy if you're paying attention since the flows and indicators are the appropriate green, blue, and yellow depending what's in use. We use Aisys machines exclusively at one of our facilities. They've become second nature to those of us who actually use them every day, and we actually hate going to other places with the older Aestiva machines. Aisys machines are far more versatile with vent modes and user configuration, and are designed to allow accurate low flows.
Click to expand...

It took me about 5 minutes to figure out the ins and outs of the machine, like I said, I noticed the nitrous was on while giving a break but kept it on thinking maybe that's what the CRNA preferred. I just found it a little annoying/counter-intuitive to have to click buttons for every actions, instead of being able to simply turn knobs and dials. I guess I am/was used to being able to just turn the nitrous and air knobs to adjust FiO2 instead of going through a menu.

That being siad, I do like the numerous vent modes that the Aisys offers. I just wish there were more knobs :)
 
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sigrhoillusion said:
Also with the GE Aisys, I find filling the desflurane cartridge so cumbersome. When you lift the bottle it lifts the carridge cause it is so light... I dunno just seems like a PITA to me...

View attachment 209708
Click to expand...

Just to be a dick: I havent filled a vaporizer in >5 years. That is done by the anesthesia techs.

I will also vote for any machine which gives me knobs for flows and a lever to turn on the vent. Otherwise most are basically interchangeable these days. We use Dragers latest.
Those old machines could be taken apart so easily and troubleshooting was nice, but the new vent modes and lack of concern over flow rate dependent tidal volumes was worth the upgrade to a black box of inner workings.


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^^^ so you don't do long cases then, I assume.

Or do you call the tech in to fill the vaporizer for you?
 
Noyac said:
^^^ so you don't do long cases then, I assume.

Or do you call the tech in to fill the vaporizer for you?
Click to expand...

Nah, those drager machines last a REALLY long time with low flows, I did a 11 hour one on Friday. But I dont like long cases.


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pjl said:
Nah, those drager machines last a REALLY long time with low flows, I did a 11 hour one on Friday. But I dont like long cases.


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Click to expand...
Are you saying that a Drager will conserve volatile agent better than the Ohmeda when the flows are equal? Is this really what you are saying?
 
Noyac said:
Are you saying that a Drager will conserve volatile agent better than the Ohmeda when the flows are equal? Is this really what you are saying?
Click to expand...

Nope, just that they hold 300 ml.
No idea what the others hold, but I must not do long enough cases. I have only had to refill once or twice since we got them.
I do have these awareness complaints that keep popping up on any case more than an hour though...


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I looked it up, the Aladin cassettes are only 250 ml.
They have a residual volume of 100 ml when they show empty too. The drager ones brag about fitting a whole bottle of sevo when they show empty, but don't say residual volume. I assume 50 though, which means you get 250 ml instead of 150 mls to play with.

Interesting. I guess another reason I like them better. The knobs are the other thing. When shopping, we bought those over GE purely due to the price our system was given.

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Ok. Just wanted to clarify that point.

Awareness! Funny.

My pts are less and less aware every day.
 
The Aespire View is my current favorite machine. It has the right combination technology and user friendliness. I also like GE and Phillips monitors that give you SPV without the need for a Flowtrac or other similar device. That's a feature I think many are not aware is built into the monitor.
 
Aestiva or Aespire for me. I'm equally able to use a Narkomed but I just don't enjoy it as much.

Aisys is just painful but fits the current "every imaginable device must have screen-based controls" fad. Remove the vaporizer to refill (and then remind all the CRNAs, SRNAs, residents, etc that it then defaults to zero when you reinstall it)? Intuitive, tactile controls replaced by a rat's nest of onscreen menus? Valves that seem to stick much more easily than other machines' valves do? Yes, it can do cool tricks like flow-volume loops - but how often do you actually need them?
 
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norwood said:
Aestiva or Aespire for me. I'm equally able to use a Narkomed but I just don't enjoy it as much.

Aisys is just painful but fits the current "every imaginable device must have screen-based controls" fad. Remove the vaporizer to refill (and then remind all the CRNAs, SRNAs, residents, etc that it then defaults to zero when you reinstall it)? Intuitive, tactile controls replaced by a rat's nest of onscreen menus? Valves that seem to stick much more easily than other machines' valves do? Yes, it can do cool tricks like flow-volume loops - but how often do you actually need them?
Click to expand...

That's why the Ohmeda is my favorite. It has a good combination of tactile controls and fancy things like pressure control -volume guarantee ventilation and flow volume loops. The Narkomed seems outdated and these newer machines are overly complicated and not intuitive.
 
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Anybody use non-GE/Ohmeda or Drager machines?? Like the Mindray or Spacelab machines you always see advertised but never in real life.
 
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