David Newman allegations

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Danbo1957 said:
Where exactly was that surgical attending during this trauma? And did you say "trauma center"? Trauma should be run by surgeons...
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I understand the sentiment but the vast majority of trauma is not amenable to surgical intervention. It would be a profound waste of resources to have a trauma surgeon evaluate every traumatically injured pt to capture the 1-2% that emergently require their specialized skills and knowledge.
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Danbo1957 said:
Where exactly was that surgical attending during this trauma? And did you say "trauma center"? Trauma should be run by surgeons...
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He was reportedly 30 minutes away and therefore unable to provide care to the patient or resident supervision, leaving the ED attending fully responsible.

The condescending tone of your post is fortunately very atypical of my daily interaction with surgical colleagues. The vast majority of surgeons have no interest in anything traumatic, due to the payor mix of trauma patients and the unpredictable nature of traumatic disease.

Ideally, every patient meeting trauma criteria would be evaluated by a trauma team.

Feel free to continue to critique regional differences in medical terminology. For my interest, this post well illustrates the challenges faced by emergency physicians in securing care for their surgical patients.
 
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Danbo1957 said:
And when Newman is convicted this thread...
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"If" is still the operative word since he has not had his day in court to enter a plea. Although after watching the following news clip and reading the accompanying article, "when" seems a definite possibility. Per the video: after hearing the ADA's presentation, the presiding judge decided to require a higher bail amount than what the ADA had asked. Also test results on the evidence submitted to NYCPD by the January patient came back positive for bodily fluids. Per the article, here's what was said regarding the earlier September patient complaint: "She alleges that he groped her for a long time and had her bend over in front of him when she visited him for treatment of a cold."

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...hine-Doctor-Lewd-Act-Manhattan-365789531.html
 
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Hyde said:
"If" is still the operative word since he has not had his day in court to enter a plea. Although after watching the following news clip and reading the accompanying article, "when" seems a definite possibility. Per the video: after hearing the ADA's presentation, the presiding judge decided to require a higher bail amount than what the ADA had asked. Also test results on the evidence submitted to NYCPD by the January patient came back positive for bodily fluids. Per the article, here's what was said regarding the earlier September patient complaint: "She alleges that he groped her for a long time and had her bend over in front of him when she visited him for treatment of a cold."

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...hine-Doctor-Lewd-Act-Manhattan-365789531.html
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Danbo1957 said:
Where exactly was that surgical attending during this trauma? And did you say "trauma center"? Trauma should be run by surgeons...
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Thats a problematic statement given the law disagrees with you. You may very well have great evidence that outcomes are some smidgen better when the surgeon yells out the instructions rather than the guy with actual trauma shears on him (just came from a trauma where 3 different trauma specialties had 1-2 residents each there and not a single one had any shears), but as long as we are responsible for all decisions made, be they made by us or you, its problematic to allow the surgeons to run it
 
DocEspana said:
Thats a problematic statement given the law disagrees with you. You may very well have great evidence that outcomes are some smidgen better when the surgeon yells out the instructions rather than the guy with actual trauma shears on him (just came from a trauma where 3 different trauma specialties had 1-2 residents each there and not a single one had any shears), but as long as we are responsible for all decisions made, be they made by us or you, its problematic to allow the surgeons to run it
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Shears aside... (we keep a pair hanging from the IV poles in every trauma bay so they're ubiquitous)

Some hospitals will designate the trauma surgeon as the attending of record for everyone who comes in as a trauma. So that would put the surgeon as the one responsible for all decisions made.
Others leave it as the EM doc's patient until a transfer is made.

Regardless of who "owns" the patient, the important thing is to have it clearly determined well in advance of a trauma actually showing up.
I worked at a place where the trauma attending rarely (if ever) came to the trauma bay. The surgery senior resident would come and was supposed to run the case in collaboration with the EM attending (me). If the resident and I disagreed on something I could make my position known, but ultimately the residents order would trump mine. Because the hospital had decided that all trauma patients belonged to the trauma attending before they rolled in the door, and the trauma department delegated the authority to the chief resident. So for all intents and purposes (and for legal matters) the chief resident was speaking with the attending's voice. That's just how that hospital, in conjunction with the local trauma system, decided they wanted to set things up.
 
That's lame. Mostly because, as was said by someone else earlier, most traumas (even though they probably need to get admitted to trauma for designation purposes) are patients the trauma team will not be doing anything for. Most traumas I see that go to the OR do so for a specialty service, with ortho or interventions rads dominating. Obviously ex laps and critical "can't wait for vascular" moments happen... but making the trauma surgeon in charge of an army of people they will observe for one day without doing anything for and a smaller Cadre of ortho or minimally invasive surgery patients just seems... idk... odd.

But yea. Guess it's the hospital systems call. I'm at a hospital now where the ER doesn't intubate traumas. <shrug> but that was because they usually have no ER resident so the ED attending is expected to run the show and let anesthesia handle the airway. Of course when I'm around I take those tubes and anesthesia is glad to not have ti come downstairs.
 
I've always been of the opinion that if the trauma attending is supposed to be the physician of record, then I shouldn't even be in the trauma bay. If the hospital wants me there, then I'm going to be in charge. I expressed that opinion to the director numerous times.

Anyways, isn't this thread about something else entirely? We kind of let a surgeon push it off the rails.
 
Danbo1957 said:
Where exactly was that surgical attending during this trauma? And did you say "trauma center"? Trauma should be run by surgeons...
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That's actually a good question....isn't one of the stipulations of being labeled a Level I trauma center that an attending surgeon needs to be in house at all times? Perhaps that attending should have been reprimanded as well?

...and I 'll be sure to keep your last comment in mind so that when I'm in the community I know I can call you out of bed for any time somebody comes in with a bump on their noggin.
 
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I believe acs lvl 2 requires level 1 trauma 80percent show for trauma attending within 15 minutes. I could be mistaken though

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filhodeinferno said:
...and I 'll be sure to keep your last comment in mind so that when I'm in the community I know I can call you out of bed for any time somebody comes in with a bump on their noggin.
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Actually, I am on call 24-hours a day for ED consult (IM attending), unless I am out of town, even for a "bump on their noggin".

Given the accuracy of the above anecdote, the surgical chief was compromised (unable to do his job). In our shop (academic Level 1), when surgery gets involved management of the patient is immediately transferred from the ED attending to the trauma surgery attending. Look, ED protocols and relevant turf wars need to be ironed out unequivocally so that there is no question of appropriate personnel to be involved during any stage of treatment.
 
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DocEspana said:
I legitmately just did a spit-take of a hot toddy.

Its cold as balls here and i just spewed my warm alcoholic drink. I would be angry if I wasnt laughing so hard.
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Then you have no balls, because it was in the mid 20s, with some wind. Literally, MILLIONS of Americans would disagree with your wimpy assessment. My wife and I were midtown at that time, and I walked to a liquor store with a coat and gloves (no hat), and was just fine. And if you say some bull**** about it being much colder 30 blocks away, then I'll know that you are even more absurd and full of it than I thought before.
 
Danbo1957 said:
Actually, I am on call 24-hours a day for ED consult (IM attending), unless I am out of town, even for a "bump on their noggin".

Given the accuracy of the above anecdote, the surgical chief was compromised (unable to do his job). In our shop (academic Level 1), when surgery gets involved management of the patient is immediately transferred from the ED attending to the trauma surgery attending. Look, ED protocols and relevant turf wars need to be ironed out unequivocally so that there is no question of appropriate personnel to be involved during any stage of treatment.
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I've never actually consulted an IM doc from the ED...unless you count admissions, I guess.

As far as turf wars go, I agree, that the logistics need to be hammered out so that there is no doubt of who has the final say in any given scenario. Where I work, while the patient is in the ED, the ED attending has the final say. However, there is usually a great deal of respect for trauma input, and I've never seen a case where we went against their wishes. I'm sure it has happened, though.
 
Fellow EM forum denizens - please let this thread die. It is serving none but trolls.
 
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Kocherclamp1 said:
I wonder if I might help bring things back on track, I'm a Gen surgeon who happened upon here curious as to the reactions to the Dr. Newman story and then have read with interest the reaction to Osler's post. I think there a some things worth pointing out.

What happened between Osler and Dr. Newman was, at it's essence, a dispute over authority. Dr. Newman's authority at the trauma came from his position, he was a board certified attending, whereas Oslers authority was organic, arising from his skill set. When Dr. Newman invoked his authority Ostler exposed for what he was in the setting of a patient possibly bleeding out from a missile injury, useless. His presence at that tauma at that moment was at best unnecessary and at worst harmful. Most ER staff and surgeons understand this uncomfortable fact and speak nothing of it, as there's little to be gained from pointing out the central contradiction of emergency medicine, that a patient having a real emergency (i.e. one with a gunshot wound who is hemodynamically unstable) has problems far beyond the EM doctors skill set to treat.

When Ostler, dismayed, found himself forced to point this out to Dr. Newman things got hot. Oster was, and I suspect still is a real surgeon, the kind of guy you want want on your side when things get tense and he flicked Dr. Newman out of the way at the crucial moment in the case. Exposing his authority as being baseless. This enraged Dr. Newman and here I think is the connection to Dr. Newman's recent, alleged, episode of masturbating on patient in his care. Dr. Newman's seems to be driven, both in Ostler's episode and in what he allegedly did to that patient in the ER a few weeks by a need for power coupled with severe bad judgement. From what I read the cracks were there on display 10 years ago, they have just widened to an abyss over time.
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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


Now accounts are being made up (likely by the same pathological individual) to write in the same painful style as was done previously to defend their Axis 2 disorder.

This is all fascinating and I am severely concerned regarding the impact this personality disorder must be having on the day to day functioning of this individual but at this point (train wreck curiosity aside) I agree with Wilco and will step out to let this thread die.
 
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It's an absolute failure to have such an allegation.. The news media loves this kind of stories - an ER doctor behaving bad. Even on a false account of allegation, your life as a physician is over. This is the second case I have seen where an ER doctor is accused of sexual abuse (the first case involved the PD of an EM program. He was found guilty and arraigned just last month). Granted that sex could have been consensual in either of the cases, I think we as future docs must be aware of the land mines that are ahead of us.
 
EMDO2016 said:
It's an absolute failure to have such an allegation.. The news media loves this kind of stories - an ER doctor behaving bad. Even on a false account of allegation, your life as a physician is over. This is the second case I have seen where an ER doctor is accused of sexual abuse (the first case involved the PD of an EM program. He was found guilty and arraigned just last month). Granted that sex could have been consensual in either of the cases, I think we as future docs must be aware of the land mines that are ahead of us.
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"Arraignment" is when the charges are read, and a plea is entered. To plead guilty is one thing. To be found guilty is after trial, which is a much longer process. As such, how come no is talking about this? Who is it? It's all public, if it is as you say. A cursory search of Google is unrevealing.
 
EMDO2016 said:
It's an absolute failure to have such an allegation.. The news media loves this kind of stories - an ER doctor behaving bad. Even on a false account of allegation, your life as a physician is over. This is the second case I have seen where an ER doctor is accused of sexual abuse (the first case involved the PD of an EM program. He was found guilty and arraigned just last month). Granted that sex could have been consensual in either of the cases, I think we as future docs must be aware of the land mines that are ahead of us.
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Uhhhh... You guys are naughty :naughty:
 
kocherclamp has posted only once on SdN. kocherclamp = osler
 
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Apollyon said:
Then you have no balls, because it was in the mid 20s, with some wind. Literally, MILLIONS of Americans would disagree with your wimpy assessment. My wife and I were midtown at that time, and I walked to a liquor store with a coat and gloves (no hat), and was just fine. And if you say some bull**** about it being much colder 30 blocks away, then I'll know that you are even more absurd and full of it than I thought before.
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I'm from the lake effect zone of new York originally. I know cold quite well.

But mid 20s is also objectively cold. Anythung below freezing is, objectively cold. It's not like I'm bitching jn the 40s.

But take a minute to stop and think. You're arguing that mid 20s is not THAT cold witg someone who was drinking an alcoholic drink. Clearly I wasn't doing it outside. Clearly wherever I was, I was indoors. Unless I was at one of the worst bars in NYC, I had heat. It made absolutely no difference whether it was 0 celcius, 0 farenheit or 0 Kelvin (well... maybe that last one) outside. My comment is about it being cold enough that a warm drink is enjoyable. Which is sort of a binary thing. I'm not earning man points by drinking anything called a hot toddie.

Idk why I'm even responding. I feel more stupid for trying to explain how indoor heating and enjoying tea works.
 
DocEspana said:
I'm from the lake effect zone of new York originally. I know cold quite well.

But mid 20s is also objectively cold. Anythung below freezing is, objectively cold. It's not like I'm bitching jn the 40s.

But take a minute to stop and think. You're arguing that mid 20s is not THAT cold witg someone who was drinking an alcoholic drink. Clearly I wasn't doing it outside. Clearly wherever I was, I was indoors. Unless I was at one of the worst bars in NYC, I had heat. It made absolutely no difference whether it was 0 celcius, 0 farenheit or 0 Kelvin (well... maybe that last one) outside. My comment is about it being cold enough that a warm drink is enjoyable. Which is sort of a binary thing. I'm not earning man points by drinking anything called a hot toddie.

Idk why I'm even responding. I feel more stupid for trying to explain how indoor heating and enjoying tea works.
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You are such a ****. In case you weren't sure, I'm just telling you. And "(explaining) how indoor heating and enjoying tea works" - seriously? You just don't know when to shut up.

And you can't even say where is "the lake effect zone of New York" is? Lake Erie? Lake Ontario? Onondaga Lake? Here's a hint, smart guy: I'm in it (right at the tip of Lake Erie, where the lake effect snow hits), so you're not the only one. Hell, I don't even know where you were. You are the expert, the best, the most outstanding at everything - at least in your own mind - but, sometimes, you ain't. Even the slightest bit of introspection, just the most meager, and you might not feel so stupid.
 
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Apollyon said:
You are such a ****. In case you weren't sure, I'm just telling you. And "(explaining) how indoor heating and enjoying tea works" - seriously? You just don't know when to shut up.

And you can't even say where is "the lake effect zone of New York" is? Lake Erie? Lake Ontario? Onondaga Lake? Here's a hint, smart guy: I'm in it (right at the tip of Lake Erie, where the lake effect snow hits), so you're not the only one. Hell, I don't even know where you were. You are the expert, the best, the most outstanding at everything - at least in your own mind - but, sometimes, you ain't. Even the slightest bit of introspection, just the most meager, and you might not feel so stupid.
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ThisThreadSucksAndIsNowAboutTrains_3157.jpg
 
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DocEspana said:
I'm from the lake effect zone of new York originally. I know cold quite well.

But mid 20s is also objectively cold. Anythung below freezing is, objectively cold. It's not like I'm bitching jn the 40s.

But take a minute to stop and think. You're arguing that mid 20s is not THAT cold witg someone who was drinking an alcoholic drink. Clearly I wasn't doing it outside. Clearly wherever I was, I was indoors. Unless I was at one of the worst bars in NYC, I had heat. It made absolutely no difference whether it was 0 celcius, 0 farenheit or 0 Kelvin (well... maybe that last one) outside. My comment is about it being cold enough that a warm drink is enjoyable. Which is sort of a binary thing. I'm not earning man points by drinking anything called a hot toddie.

Idk why I'm even responding. I feel more stupid for trying to explain how indoor heating and enjoying tea works.
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Apollyon said:
You are such a ****. In case you weren't sure, I'm just telling you. And "(explaining) how indoor heating and enjoying tea works" - seriously? You just don't know when to shut up.

And you can't even say where is "the lake effect zone of New York" is? Lake Erie? Lake Ontario? Onondaga Lake? Here's a hint, smart guy: I'm in it (right at the tip of Lake Erie, where the lake effect snow hits), so you're not the only one. Hell, I don't even know where you were. You are the expert, the best, the most outstanding at everything - at least in your own mind - but, sometimes, you ain't. Even the slightest bit of introspection, just the most meager, and you might not feel so stupid.
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Simmer down, class.
 
Aww guys, come on. This is one of the few forums I can just relax and read because you rarely require moderation.

Go back to the topic at hand (no pun intended) or just let it die.
 
Apollyon said:
You are such a ****. In case you weren't sure, I'm just telling you. And "(explaining) how indoor heating and enjoying tea works" - seriously? You just don't know when to shut up.

And you can't even say where is "the lake effect zone of New York" is? Lake Erie? Lake Ontario? Onondaga Lake? Here's a hint, smart guy: I'm in it (right at the tip of Lake Erie, where the lake effect snow hits), so you're not the only one. Hell, I don't even know where you were. You are the expert, the best, the most outstanding at everything - at least in your own mind - but, sometimes, you ain't. Even the slightest bit of introspection, just the most meager, and you might not feel so stupid.
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Who **** in your cheerios this morning? And all this because I was complimenting someone's joke? And you're the one speaking of introspection. Whomever it is that hurt you, take it up with them man.
 
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DocEspana said:
Who **** in your cheerios this morning? And all this because I was complimenting someone's joke? And you're the one speaking of introspection. Whomever it is that hurt you, take it up with them man.
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I couldn't reply at the time you posted, because my phone is way past replacement. No one hurt me, but your style, where you are king ****, doesn't fly here (à la recruiting for the AMA).
 
wholeheartedly said:
Aww guys, come on. This is one of the few forums I can just relax and read because you rarely require moderation.

Go back to the topic at hand (no pun intended) or just let it die.
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Who are you? Honestly, in my 13+years on SDN (and, I guess, your 6+), I have never noticed anything about you (and had NO idea that you were an "administrator"). Our own mod is MIA, so, whatever. I'll officially peace out, then (unless I get some on-topic information).
 
HoosierdaddyO said:
To continue the theme of "pure speculation" lol....let's say for arguments sake that he is found guilty of this crime....what does or how does this translate to the future of Emergency Medicine and the way things are practiced, whether it be tighter control on narcotics, having a scribe in every room from now on, to cameras in every patient room etc etc etc?! Or does nothing change at all besides reinforcing the notion that its frowned upon to ejaculate onto a patients face, or if you do do it...not to get caught lol? And on the flip side if he is found not guilty what measures can be taken to make sure you never find yourself in this situation, where you have a patient bringing false accusations upon you?
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All are interesting questions. One question you didn't ask that I would think is important to the ER specialty in terms of professional optics is what happens if Dr. Newman, a very visible "leadership"voice, is guilty and pleas out to lesser charges? How are you all going to feel about that turn of events? Do you want him to continue to be the poster boy for the ER specialty? Before getting charged with sexual assault, Dr. Newman might have been positioning himself for a health care policy role in the Big DC Show. Would that trouble any of you if he got off "easy?" I'm curious because professionalism and ethics are big things in med school now but I was wondering how it would work in this case. Would you just pay your association dues and STFU if Dr. Newman ends up in DC?
 
In other news I just saved 15 % on my car insurance...that little lizard was right :) lol!!
 
HoosierdaddyO said:
In other news I just saved 15 % on my car insurance...that little lizard was right :) lol!!
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So you don't care about any impact a guilty plea to lesser charges would have on ER. Fair enough.
 
Hyde said:
So you don't care about any impact a guilty plea to lesser charges would have on ER. Fair enough.
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First off my previous comment was a j-o-k-e and secondly I'll be honest I don't know too much about it. Unlike others I know what I know, and I also know what I don't...and law and criminal justice is one of those things :).
 
HoosierdaddyO said:
First off my previous comment was a j-o-k-e and secondly I'll be honest I don't know too much about it. Unlike others I know what I know, and I also know what I don't...and law and criminal justice is one of those things :).
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Sorry I didn't mean to put you, the individual ER doc, on the spot. Your response is probably what many ER physicians might feel. Frankly I already figured that the subjects of ethics and professionalism are nice to ponder in theoretical discussions led by tenured Ivory Tower med school faculty members but it might be a different ball of wax for docs in the trenches trying to do their jobs, pay off loans, raise families. Unfortunately it's the policy gurus and the "leadership voices" in academia - even those with very serious warts - who the politicians and the public view as representing the views of physicians as a whole, even if they don't. It is what it is. Grasshopper is learning fast. Do as I say but not as I do.
 
Hyde said:
So you don't care about any impact a guilty plea to lesser charges would have on ER. Fair enough.
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Most of the actors have long since moved on to other projects so I don't think there's any hope a plea deal would get ER back on the air.
 
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Hyde said:
Sorry I didn't mean to put you, the individual ER doc, on the spot. Your response is probably what many ER physicians might feel. Frankly I already figured that the subjects of ethics and professionalism are nice to ponder in theoretical discussions led by tenured Ivory Tower med school faculty members but it might be a different ball of wax for docs in the trenches trying to do their jobs, pay off loans, raise families. Unfortunately it's the policy gurus and the "leadership voices" in academia - even those with very serious warts - who the politicians and the public view as representing the views of physicians as a whole, even if they don't. It is what it is. Grasshopper is learning fast. Do as I say but not as I do.
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Sorry which politicians know this dude exactly? And why would one person's actions jeopardize an entire field of 10s of thousands of doctors? I don't understand what you're trying to say. Ben Carson, an actual famous doctor, hasn't really affected neurosurgeons in the public eye so I don't see how this guy would.
 
Hyde said:
Sorry I didn't mean to put you, the individual ER doc, on the spot. Your response is probably what many ER physicians might feel. Frankly I already figured that the subjects of ethics and professionalism are nice to ponder in theoretical discussions led by tenured Ivory Tower med school faculty members but it might be a different ball of wax for docs in the trenches trying to do their jobs, pay off loans, raise families. Unfortunately it's the policy gurus and the "leadership voices" in academia - even those with very serious warts - who the politicians and the public view as representing the views of physicians as a whole, even if they don't. It is what it is. Grasshopper is learning fast. Do as I say but not as I do.
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Also I don't know how you sound in real life but I bet it would get on my nerves
 
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Apollyon said:
You are such a ****. In case you weren't sure, I'm just telling you. And "(explaining) how indoor heating and enjoying tea works" - seriously? You just don't know when to shut up.

And you can't even say where is "the lake effect zone of New York" is? Lake Erie? Lake Ontario? Onondaga Lake? Here's a hint, smart guy: I'm in it (right at the tip of Lake Erie, where the lake effect snow hits), so you're not the only one. Hell, I don't even know where you were. You are the expert, the best, the most outstanding at everything - at least in your own mind - but, sometimes, you ain't. Even the slightest bit of introspection, just the most meager, and you might not feel so stupid.
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WTF is wrong with you?
 
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Time for this nicely derailed thread to be put on time-out. If he's guilty, the homies will be waiting for him at Rikers. If he's found not guilty, his reputation is ruined, they'll always be a cloud of suspicion, but he's "vindicated." Seems like a lose-lose situation.
 
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