Dear Surgery Residents: go %&$# yourselves. Sincerely, MS3

[Frank Nutter]

Why are these people such epic c*nts?

I'm so bothered by surgery all I can do is make a list of phrases that sum it up:

1. trickle-down abuse
2. passive aggression
3. silence
4. eye contact avoidance
5. glorified supply caddy
6. sarcasm
7. disingenuous
8. Schadenfreude
9. defenselessness

---

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[ArcGurren]

This was actually more of an issue for me on OB/Gyn than surgery. I for the most part got along with my surgical residents and interns; OB, on the other hand, was fighting a losing battle.

 

[tco]

Why are these people such epic c*nts?

I'm so bothered by surgery all I can do is make a list of phrases that sum it up:

1. trickle-down abuse
2. passive aggression
3. silence
4. eye contact avoidance
5. glorified supply caddy
6. sarcasm
7. disingenuous
8. Schadenfreude
9. defenselessness

I wish SDN had a "Like" button. I would use it for the first time on this post.

It's not our fault that you guys chose surgery. Don't be pissed off at us, be pissed off at yourselves.

 

[link2swim06]

This was actually more of an issue for me on OB/Gyn than surgery. I for the most part got along with my surgical residents and interns; OB, on the other hand, was fighting a losing battle.

I also would 'like' this post. OB people are the worst of the worse. It was systemic, the nurses, techs, residents, doctors, even the interpreters were anger/rude people.

 

[zoner]

What causes theses kinda behaviors? I m coming from hospitality related business and this kinda attitude lingering over to the clients is absolute unacceptable.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using SDN Mobile

 

[KnuxNole]

I know that feel bro.

Remember, angry/pissed off residents just reflect how miserable their actual lives are. I would always be smiling and happy, even if they seem miserable. Don't let that affect you.

As to what causes it...sometimes being overworked. Other times, getting yelled at/abused by attendings have an effect on it. How someone carries themselves during stress says a lot about their character. Those who get angry easily/easy to crack aren't strong willed people. Sadly, they aren't good people to work with :|

 

[link2swim06]

A lot of it is immaturity combined with stress. People who have never worked a real job before residency and don't understand how they are suppose to behave.

 

[zoner]

A lot of it is immaturity combined with stress. People who have never worked a real job before residency and don't understand how they are suppose to behave.

Ah. I. C. So it probably won't be worse than working in a professional film production filled with egos, yelling n screaming n kissing ass

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using SDN Mobile

 

[SLUser11]

Why are these people such epic c*nts?

I'm so bothered by surgery all I can do is make a list of phrases that sum it up:

1. trickle-down abuse
2. passive aggression
3. silence
4. eye contact avoidance
5. glorified supply caddy
6. sarcasm
7. disingenuous
8. Schadenfreude
9. defenselessness

I have definitely encountered surgical residents that fit this description. However, I've seen significantly more surgical residents who are pleasant and approachable, and donate a large amount of time and energy to student education.

My point is that there are a-holes in all specialties of medicine, and at all levels of training from student to chairman. Some of this is inherent, and some is the result of the way we are trained. However, it is not exclusive to surgery, nor is it ubiquitous within surgery.

SDN is anonymous and light-hearted, and I think it's a perfectly fine environment for venting. However, in real life, I would discourage people with limited experience from making blanket statements about a specialty they know little about. If you approach surgery with such disgust and close-mindedness, then you are likely to turn into the thing that you hate most.

Remember that all these jerk residents were once hothead students suffering from the same "trickle-down abuse" you described, and most of their bad behavior developed during this time period.

For those of you who enjoy surgery but hate surgery residents, also remember that you don't have to train in an abusive environment, and outside of the little bubble you are familiar with, there are plenty of programs with solid training in a healthy learning environment.

 

[KnuxNole]

Ah. I. C. So it probably won't be worse than working in a professional film production filled with egos, yelling n screaming n kissing ass

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using SDN Mobile

There will be some of that in medicine, but rarely.

And a little more than half of the surgery residents have been normal, pleasant people to work with. Although there have been "hotheads" and miserable people, they weren't the only types of personalities in surgery. I agree that there are people like this in all fields, which is sad. Thankfully they are rare, and people are able to interact without being angry at all or having any misery in them.

 

[ArcGurren]

I also would 'like' this post. OB people are the worst of the worse. It was systemic, the nurses, techs, residents, doctors, even the interpreters were anger/rude people.

Yeah, that was a swimmingly enjoyable two months of my life, to say the least.

 

[ArcGurren]

I have definitely encountered surgical residents that fit this description. However, I've seen significantly more surgical residents who are pleasant and approachable, and donate a large amount of time and energy to student education.

My point is that there are a-holes in all specialties of medicine, and at all levels of training from student to chairman. Some of this is inherent, and some is the result of the way we are trained. However, it is not exclusive to surgery, nor is it ubiquitous within surgery.

SDN is anonymous and light-hearted, and I think it's a perfectly fine environment for venting. However, in real life, I would discourage people with limited experience from making blanket statements about a specialty they know little about. If you approach surgery with such disgust and close-mindedness, then you are likely to turn into the thing that you hate most.

Remember that all these jerk residents were once hothead students suffering from the same "trickle-down abuse" you described, and most of their bad behavior developed during this time period.

For those of you who enjoy surgery but hate surgery residents, also remember that you don't have to train in an abusive environment, and outside of the little bubble you are familiar with, there are plenty of programs with solid training in a healthy learning environment.

I would generally agree with this. I agree that there are definitely surgical programs which are less malignant than the one the OP described. I think any decision about whether you want to go into surgery depends largely on whether you like to be in the OR all day or not.

 

[st0w]

For those of you who enjoy surgery but hate surgery residents, also remember that you don't have to train in an abusive environment, and outside of the little bubble you are familiar with, there are plenty of programs with solid training in a healthy learning environment.

This.

As someone going into surgery, I always feel compelled to speak out against the "all surgeons are *******s" myth. Are there *******s in surgery? Sure. I wouldn't try to argue that the stereotype is completely undeserved. But for every program where *******s are allowed to exist, there is another program where they aren't. If you're running into jerks in your rotation, that's a reflection on the particular institution. I've done rotations at my home school and several other places, and I've seen enough programs where being a jerk in surgery is not tolerated to know that healthy environments do exist. It's the single most important factor I've been looking for when putting my rank list together - a supportive environment where residents are encouraged to challenge their attendings. There are PLENTY of places where one can go into surgery without having to put up with malignant personalities.

Being a jerk in healthcare will last as long as the rest of us allow it to exist.

 

[tco]

Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason, st0w. Despite your best defense, more programs than not are as described above.

I've never understood how that behavior was ever allowed in the hospital, let alone how it clings on to today.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason, st0w. Despite your best defense, more programs than not are as described above.

I've never understood how that behavior was ever allowed in the hospital, let alone how it clings on to today.

So you give a poster a hard time for generalizing about Anesthesia programs in another thread in this forum ("just because your program is this way doesn't mean they all are), yet generalize about most surgery programs here?

 

[tco]

So you give another poster a hard time about generalizing about Anesthesia programs in another thread in this forum ("just because your program is this way doesn't mean they all are), yet generalize about most surgery programs here?

I can see how what I said was misunderstood. I was agreeing with the stereotype in that thread as well. In general, I think stereotypes are accurate, and it's because they are demonstrated over and over and over again.

So, what you quoted is the exact same point.

We have a very narrow view of what we see as the world. Whatever we see in our program, we generalize to everyone else. We try to keep an open mind and say, "My program is great! It must be like this everywhere," or vice versa. However, there's a reason that these stereotypes exist (i.e. surgeons are jerks and anesthesia gets done at 3 PM) and that reason is because for the most part, that's how it is...

For the record, at my program, it's about 50/50. I get along with the residents I work with, but I let it run off of my back when they start piling it on. Other people aren't so thick skinned.

 

[st0w]

Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason, st0w. Despite your best defense, more programs than not are as described above.

I've never understood how that behavior was ever allowed in the hospital, let alone how it clings on to today.

Stereotypes are stereotypes because people generalize an experience with a subset of people to a larger group, and then other people continue to generalize everybody because of one particular stereotype - just like you're doing here.

I'm not sure where you're getting evidence for your "most programs than not" statement, as I'm fairly certain you haven't been to every program in the country. I would even venture a guess that you've personally worked in surgery departments numbering a handful, at best.

You are also very off in your statement that it "clings on to today." Many programs are actively working to ensure treatment of students and residents is fair and reasonable. And there's a big difference between somebody being challenging, and somebody being malignant.

 

[tco]

Stereotypes are stereotypes because people generalize an experience with a subset of people to a larger group, and then other people continue to generalize everybody because of one particular stereotype - just like you're doing here.

Everyone's seen those stereotypical cartoons about (insert specialty of choice here). Most of the people in those fields that see them laugh and say how accurate they are...There are definitely exceptions to "the rule" in every field (I'm agreeing with you people - The department determines the type of surgeon that they have) but, again, stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. Yes, it seems like an intellectual conflict of interest to believe this and to be able to keep an open mind as a future physician, but I feel that I can do it, and it's because I realize that there are numerous exceptions to the rule (but the rule still exists).

I'm not sure where you're getting evidence for your "most programs than not" statement, as I'm fairly certain you haven't been to every program in the country. I would even venture a guess that you've personally worked in surgery departments numbering a handful, at best.

Alright, you're correct in calling out my blanket statement there, however, I do have an N>1 to go by...However anecdotal it may be.

I know it only further adds to your point, but I'm a medical student, so I've only worked in one surgery department. I am, however, constantly picking the brains of the residents that are here that I get along with. Most of the general surgery residents, many from other schools, picked general surgery despite the people in it. They just blatantly LOVED the OR, and couldn't imagine a career without being in it all day every day. The subspecialty people often pick their fields based on the fact that they LOVED the OR, but couldn't stand the people in general surgery, or poop. One or the other. It seems like, from those that I've talked to, the minority were initially interested in their specialty because it's "all they've ever wanted to do."

You are also very off in your statement that it "clings on to today." Many programs are actively working to ensure treatment of students and residents is fair and reasonable. And there's a big difference between somebody being challenging, and somebody being malignant.

You're absolutely correct in stating that there's a difference between being challenging and malignant. I do not feel that anyone in our department, resident or attending, is malignant, but that doesn't meant that they're not total ****heads. To me, a malignant person is one that is cheering for you to fail, or even preparing for you to fail. We don't have any of those. However, we have attendings that ask us questions that they don't even know (or didn't know a few days prior, for one very specific example), and when we don't know, they belittle us and tell us to go read about it because everyone knows that. Complete ****heads. If that attitude existed in any other field at our hospital, that attending would be gone in a blink of an eye.

You quantified your statement with "many programs..." so I have no way to disprove it. I'll just rebuttal with the following statement:

Many programs aren't actively working to ensure treatment of students and residents is fair and reasonable. I also want to clarify that ours is not one of them, but I obviously know "many" medical students at other universities that face that problem.

 

[jackets5]

Usually its one or two residents that ruin it for everyone. Most of my surgery residents and attendings were very nice, good people. There were two who were just miserable, had no intention on teaching, focused on scut work, trying to degrade, humiliate and just make students lives miserable. The bigger problem was when we as a group said something to the student co-ordinator her response was " we have heard that several times about them from students.....but they are surgeons" we were like what the **** because your a surgeon you get a pass to be an awful human being and treat students like ****. From my experience and friends the residents who are the most abusive are the ones who are less competent.

 

[SLUser11]

However, there's a reason that these stereotypes exist (i.e. surgeons are jerks and anesthesia gets done at 3 PM) and that reason is because for the most part, that's how it is....

I disagree. Stereotypes don't define the majority. They define the loud and obnoxious minority. Two specific points to make about the surgery stereotype:

1. This stereotype developed during a different time, and since then surgical culture has evolved and improved. Much of the behavior that was considered acceptable back then is completely unacceptable now, and would get many surgeons fired. Throwing instruments and banging nurses in the call rooms is more folklore than fact in 2012. We may know one or two people that still do it, but most surgeons do not.

2. The few true malignant stereotype surgeons make a larger impression than the many fair and well-adjusted surgeons. Stereotypes therefore don't exist because that's how it is most places...they exist because bad behavior leaves a big stamp in your mind, while normal behavior goes relatively unnoticed.

 

[Ok2Panic]

Why are these people such epic c*nts?

I'm so bothered by surgery all I can do is make a list of phrases that sum it up:

1. trickle-down abuse
2. passive aggression
3. silence
4. eye contact avoidance
5. glorified supply caddy
6. sarcasm
7. disingenuous
8. Schadenfreude
9. defenselessness

I'm pretty sure that you and I go to the same school, OP. And I'm on gen surg now, so, just want to show some support and say, you're not alone and I'm freaking miserable too.

I don't mind the hours, I don't mind the long cases, I guess I just have trouble understanding the necessity of the lack of basic human decency. Counting down the freaking days.

 

[SLUser11]

I'm pretty sure that you and I go to the same school, OP. And I'm on gen surg now, so, just want to show some support and say, you're not alone and I'm freaking miserable too.

I don't mind the hours, I don't mind the long cases, I guess I just have trouble understanding the necessity of the lack of basic human decency. Counting down the freaking days.

Location: New York, NY.

This tends to be a hot spot for stereotypical malignant behavior. I will concede that bad behavior may be more concentrated on the East Coast, although there are plenty of benign surgeons there. Something for the applicants to think about when they are choosing programs....

 

[tco]

To everyone claiming that these personalities are dying and that programs don't act this way any more, why are there so many posts on SDN from so many different schools about how bad of an experience students have on their surgery rotation? Everyone knows that they're going to work hard...That's not what they complain about. They complain about the overall experience. If it's dying such a swift and hard death, why are so many people still venting anonymously on SDN? To those of you defending this field: Perhaps your experiences are the minority instead of the inverse that you have been claiming? I've had a very mild experience, but I'm not discrediting that many people in many different schools deal with total ****heads. I realize this because our program is considered benign, and I still have dealt with such personalities.

I'm also not saying that it's a bad thing to have hard surgeons. They just shouldn't be teaching.

 

[JourneyAgent]

I don't think that stereotypes are baseless either. They have a kernel of truth. Saying that surgeons can't throw instruments at people anymore isn't revolutionary. It's like saying the monkeys can't throw their **** anymore because we put mittens on them. The nature of the monkey, his desire to hurl the turd, is a different question.

My surgery rotation taught me a lot. And had some great people in it. But the aggressive, competitive crowd was their in full force. Grinding it out for the longest hours in a deranged setting--one that hasn't proven to be any good at bringing out the best in people in terms of the interpersonal relationships especially when trifling with medical students.

Other fields are much better at recruiting and nurturing their young. Creating a self selecting cultural sieve that draws more people that are tone deaf to treating people beneath them with dignity. Maybe there are good reasons. I respect surgeons and the job they have to do too much to be hypercritical. But for those of us not interested in pursuing the field who have had to endure a grossly negative environment and will again senior year--godd@mmit! Why?!--some criticism is warranted.

So saying the stereotype doesn't exist without some general truth hasn't been true for me....or that guy....or her.....or the OP.....etc. Hence a stereotype is born and Is today alive and well.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I had a good experience on ob/gyn, and went into the rotation with so much prejudice because I had heard that the residents were atrocious. I had two testy residents, the rest were OK. I won't say they were gushing with friendliness, but if I was on top of things, efficient, didn't ask dumb questions, knew answers to pimping, did complete gynhx, obhx, etc. they were quite reasonable. They want you to respect their chosen field.

I know surgery has a reputation for malignancy, but I think part of that must stem from students having a poor ability to read people. If you see someone is testy, wants a fast presentation, wants a quicker exam, wants you to address X and not address Y - if you're receptive and pick up on that and adapt, I think you'll be OK. I think it's the slow responsiveness that gets people into trouble.

Also, learn how to be a good actor and imitator. Watch what the superiors do and parrot it.

 

[Wilf]

A lot of it is immaturity combined with stress. People who have never worked a real job before residency and don't understand how they are suppose to behave.

Why is it that if residency is their first real job they do not know how to behave but if their first real job is anything else then they do?

 

[JourneyAgent]

Why is it that if residency is their first real job they do not know how to behave but if their first real job is anything else then they do?

Excellent point. I agree that maturity Is not the key variable. Plenty of people who never worked a real job are as sweet as tupelo honey. Cultural natural selection seems like the only possible explanation to me.

And with regards to the other poster....extolling his/her own adaptive prowess. You prove the point you're refuting. I did fine in surgery. And OB. The fact that I can walk on egg shells while dancing a jig doesn't mean I like it. Nor is it something to brag about. .... Oh yeah! Well I can suck 5 c@cks at once.... So there! Feel my badass vibe.

This is exactly why most of us don't enjoy it. Not only are we expected to suck it. But we have to be judged comparatively against professionals.

 

[link2swim06]

Why is it that if residency is their first real job they do not know how to behave but if their first real job is anything else then they do?

I obviously made a generalization.

My question to you....name another first job where on day one you out rank 90% of the employees in a company? That is a lot of pressure combined with a huge potential creating a ego-complex.

 

[SLUser11]

.... Oh yeah! Well I can suck 5 c@cks at once.... So there! Feel my badass vibe..

For the record, I've rarely seen a student subjected to more than 3 or 4 residents at once. Five is sort of exaggerating....

 

[JourneyAgent]

For the record, I've rarely seen a student subjected to more than 3 or 4 residents at once. Five is sort of exaggerating....

Yes. But for some reason, unbeknownst, to the general assembly of the not-predisposed to self-flagellation. There's always gonna be that one going for 5. Just to join the club. That keeps the whole circle jerk turning.

 

[duckie99]

My question to you....name another first job where on day one you out rank 90% of the employees in a company? That is a lot of pressure combined with a huge potential creating a ego-complex.

lol good point!

But imo the problem with a majority of the so-called "a-hole douche" residents is likely more a result of the medical student's insecurities. It's also most students' first time ever actually operating in a work environment. It's also the first time most of them are the dumbest people in the entire "company". It's a huge ego hurt. So when someone even looks at a student the wrong way or if the knowledge of a person who's always been the "smartest" is questioned there is a greater potential for getting your feelings hurt.

Now I will add:
1. There are plenty of residents/attendings who are a-hole douches. Sadly there really isn't anything you can do about it.
2. Most of the med students who complain are 3rd year students.
3. I would wager most students would have a varying opinion of any one particular resident/attending.
4. Surgical residents of most any kind, including obgyn (except I'd say ophtho) are douches. It's just part of their personality. Those type of people tend to gravitate towards those fields. I'm not sure why. It is what it is.

 

[KnuxNole]

Guess that explains why I would never care for a surgical specialty or OB/GYN. I'm WAAAAY too laid back, relaxed and chill. I know it's a stereotype for surgery people to be high strung and always stressed out, and with every stereotype, there are probably thousands of surgeons who are never stressed out or are always laid back!

Remember, all the time, and never show face.

 

[SLUser11]

But imo the problem with a majority of the so-called "a-hole douche" residents is likely more a result of the medical student's insecurities. It's also most students' first time ever actually operating in a work environment. It's also the first time most of them are the dumbest people in the entire "company". It's a huge ego hurt. So when someone even looks at a student the wrong way or if the knowledge of a person who's always been the "smartest" is questioned there is a greater potential for getting your feelings hurt.

 

[JourneyAgent]

This is back to the....it's her fault. She dressed like a slut. Yeah bro! Med students are just weak!! Not strong like man.

Yeah.... Enjoy the next 5 years of that. Or in your case dishing it out to some other poor sap.

 

[45408]

To everyone claiming that these personalities are dying and that programs don't act this way any more, why are there so many posts on SDN from so many different schools about how bad of an experience students have on their surgery rotation? Everyone knows that they're going to work hard...That's not what they complain about.

Sure, it is. People complain about waking up at 4:30am, staying overnight, being hungry, or being in an 8 hour case.

I had lousy teaching from the resident on my neurology rotation, but the hours were pretty benign, so I just ignored it. If I'd been there 12+ hours/day, then I'd probably be bitter too.

They complain about the overall experience. If it's dying such a swift and hard death, why are so many people still venting anonymously on SDN?

Because venting is cathartic, and they aren't going to get in trouble here, and they know a lot of people will agree with them.

This is back to the....it's her fault. She dressed like a slut. Yeah bro! Med students are just weak!! Not strong like man.

Comparing this to rape is ad extremum.

And yes, med students are weaker. I certainly was. If you didn't get stronger over the course of 4 years of med school and 5 years of residency, then that raises the question of "What exactly are you doing?" You learn a great deal, work faster, become technically more proficient, and take on a great deal more responsibility.

Yeah.... Enjoy the next 5 years of that. Or in your case dishing it out to some other poor sap.

SLUser is actually a really nice guy who has contributed a lot to this forum and is now teaching the next generation of surgery trainees. On the other hand, you're being rude.

 

[MCAT guy]

Why are these people such epic c*nts?

I'm so bothered by surgery all I can do is make a list of phrases that sum it up:

1. trickle-down abuse
2. passive aggression
3. silence
4. eye contact avoidance
5. glorified supply caddy
6. sarcasm
7. disingenuous
8. Schadenfreude
9. defenselessness

Lol nice

 

[KnuxNole]

Med students are "weaker" than residents, sure, but I think some personalities who are hard ***** dont mesh well with students. This isn't boot camp or the military. That's where a lot of the venting comes from. It's one thing to want students to work hard and realize their full potential. It's another thing to have an attitude with people you work with, not being calm(one resident was literally running around every 5 minutes and we were afraid he would snap one day), and not being friendly to people.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I think the main reason you see 3rd year med students complaining about it the most is because those who complain about it in 3rd year don't go into surgery sub-Is 4th year... those who want to consider surgical specialties will do a surgical sub-I.

Anyways, haven't had the rotation yet (will start in January) but i've heard it's a bit of both at my hospital. Basically I'm just going to keep my head down, try to work hard, and try to stay out of the way as much as possible.

 

[ArcGurren]

Location: New York, NY.

This tends to be a hot spot for stereotypical malignant behavior. I will concede that bad behavior may be more concentrated on the East Coast, although there are plenty of benign surgeons there. Something for the applicants to think about when they are choosing programs....

For what it's worth, the IM programs in NY also have their fare share of "malignancy" as well

 

[tco]

Anyways, haven't had the rotation yet (will start in January) but i've heard it's a bit of both at my hospital. Basically I'm just going to keep my head down, try to work hard, and try to stay out of the way as much as possible.

When it comes down to it, even if you LOVE surgery, that's the only thing you can really do as a medical student.

 

[ArcGurren]

To everyone claiming that these personalities are dying and that programs don't act this way any more, why are there so many posts on SDN from so many different schools about how bad of an experience students have on their surgery rotation? Everyone knows that they're going to work hard...That's not what they complain about. They complain about the overall experience. If it's dying such a swift and hard death, why are so many people still venting anonymously on SDN? To those of you defending this field: Perhaps your experiences are the minority instead of the inverse that you have been claiming? I've had a very mild experience, but I'm not discrediting that many people in many different schools deal with total ****heads. I realize this because our program is considered benign, and I still have dealt with such personalities.

I'm also not saying that it's a bad thing to have hard surgeons. They just shouldn't be teaching.

I dunno. I think it's the internet and it's an online forum where people feel secure about venting (as they should) so I don't think it's a representative sample. I've had some terrible experiences on my surgery rotation and I found that the surgery residents I worked with were utterly incompetent in their understanding of basic medicine (including how to dose insulin, how to deal with heparin or coumadin, etc) - and I've certainly ranted about that in the past here.

I don't think it's the norm though. My school's old surg chief has probably a better knowledge of medicine than some of the hospitalists b/c he's an old school surgeon who learned everything in order to do what he does, and hates consulting medicine unless it's something very serious (unexplained hematologic problems, etc). In general, even though I hated my surgery rotation, I didn't hate the people on it as much as I did for OB/Gyn (where, ironically, I enjoyed some of the OB material). I do think that the residents had egos the size of hot air balloons (and were equally full of hot air) but they usually kept it in check.

 

[ArcGurren]

But imo the problem with a majority of the so-called "a-hole douche" residents is likely more a result of the medical student's insecurities. It's also most students' first time ever actually operating in a work environment. It's also the first time most of them are the dumbest people in the entire "company". It's a huge ego hurt. So when someone even looks at a student the wrong way or if the knowledge of a person who's always been the "smartest" is questioned there is a greater potential for getting your feelings hurt.

Their ego is bruised, so it's the student's fault? What?

 

[SLUser11]

Their ego is bruised, so it's the student's fault? What?

I think he means the student's ego.

I think it's impossible for surgery residents and medical students to agree on this topic since the perspectives are so different. I will say that I believe the surgeon's perspective to be somewhat more experienced, having already been a student, resident, etc. SDNers always complain that residents have lost perspective and forgot how it is to be a student, but those same SDNers change their minds as residents because they see the bigger picture. Things that seemed to be "scutwork" actually contained high educational value. Demanding residents with high expectations actually did more for their education than the cool, laid back residents. Etc etc etc.

Remember that there's a student stereotype as well: entitled, whiny, "first real job not knowing how to act," cannot tolerate criticism, convinced they are smarter than their residents, requiring constant positive feedback to function, no common sense, etc.

I certainly don't think the stereotype fits the majority of students. On the contrary, the students I've encountered are usually diligent, humble, hard-working, and intelligent. However, I've encountered many stereotypes in my multiple training environments over the years. Would it be fair for me to say that "stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason?"

 

[JourneyAgent]

I think he means the student's ego.

I think it's impossible for surgery residents and medical students to agree on this topic since the perspectives are so different. I will say that I believe the surgeon's perspective to be somewhat more experienced, having already been a student, resident, etc. SDNers always complain that residents have lost perspective and forgot how it is to be a student, but those same SDNers change their minds as residents because they see the bigger picture. Things that seemed to be "scutwork" actually contained high educational value. Demanding residents with high expectations actually did more for their education than the cool, laid back residents. Etc etc etc.

Remember that there's a student stereotype as well: entitled, whiny, "first real job not knowing how to act," cannot tolerate criticism, convinced they are smarter than their residents, requiring constant positive feedback to function, no common sense, etc.

I certainly don't think the stereotype fits the majority of students. On the contrary, the students I've encountered are usually diligent, humble, hard-working, and intelligent. However, I've encountered many stereotypes in my multiple training environments over the years. Would it be fair for me to say that "stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason?"

Yes. That would be fair. If anything as an illustration to hold up to one's own mind. For you, your residents, and us. I'm glad your a real educator. My jokes were directed as much at me as you. Frankly, I find the position of being a 3rd year clerk inherently funny. Like wearing a scuba tank and flippers to an evening black tie affair. Just all stupid and out of place. It would be hard not appreciate the humor of this. Especially on my first rotation--surgery. Residents going for their best drill sergeant for ****s and giggles. I agree that one of the sternest among my supe's was the best teacher. I worked harder to do my work right for him than maybe anyone before in my life--which is longer than is typical of my cohort of goons.

But ask me if I want to spend a moment longer in his realm and it's giant f@ck no. And hence I laugh and cheer the premise of this thread.

No need for anybody (resident poster) to get all butt sore at one of the few places a clerk can wander off the reservation and say what he thinks and laugh at what he sees as true. That lot's of you folks are wound up tight and all kinds of miserable. And we're happy to be moving on.

What's wrong with that. Doesn't mean that when I consult you I won't do it respectfully, trying to make it easier for you to make the best use of your very short time to do so.

Anesthilogists are cross word puzzling goofballs. Psychiatrists are weird. You guys are Jerks. And so on. Just enough truth to it all to be funny.

 

[Ok2Panic]

Not commenting generally on stereotypes or anything, but I just want to say that some of my classmates and I were having a discussion about this today and about how this was not our experience on surgical services across the board. Many of us have had fantastic experiences with surgical subspecialties, including ENT, ortho, and neurosurgery. Residents were just as overworked, busy, and sometimes brusque, without necessarily being as.....horrible as some of the residents I've encountered on our General Surgery service. And it's not about people being "mean". In fact, one of the biggest pleasant surprises I encountered during third year is realizing that when upperclassmen and SDN students and whatever say "I got yelled at", they often really mean "I was reprimanded". One of those two obviously bothers me a lot less than the other. And there's a difference between someone being "mean" and someone being short because they're busy, and they don't necessarily feel the need to say please and thank you and smile 10x.

I mention that just to give an idea of my baseline, I guess. I've worked entry level jobs before medical school, begin at the lowest point on the totem pole, and have had everything from my "good morning" to my work criticized--it sucks, but I can handle that. And my issues with surgery don't have anything to do with surgery per se (the hours, the standing, the not peeing as often as I'd like, the hierarchy), or the so called "Surgical personality" as much as the attitude that may very well specific to my region, institution, or just a few bad apples. My gripes are more about an almost intentional hostility and, not to repeat myself, but lack of basic decency towards students for no other reason than because well, why not? I'm planning on going into a surgical subspecialty, so I, like all other medical students, grit my teeth and bear it. But as I've gone through different rotations, I can't help but wonder how many medical students have been put off an entire specialty because of these interactions. I've said this a million times before, but, most of our experiences with any specialty are defined by our third year rotations, and our rotations are shaped by our interactions with the people we spend the most time with--residents.

It's hard, and maybe unwise in some respects, to say to yourself "I love this specialty, everyone seems miserable though and treats me like crap, but maybe that won't be me, maybe this won't be my experience, maybe I'll go somewhere where people are nicer". I'm rambling. I just think it doesn't have to be this way.

 

[KnuxNole]

Having high expectations is always good. Being demanding makes people and think of you as a lame person. If someone demanded stuff ala military style, I might try to contain my laughter. You can be chill/normal, and have high expectations

 

[MediCane2006]

I know I really must be getting old when I find myself nodding on agreement with SLUser's (excellent) post (although we will never agree on his negative East Coast bias)

OP, this is a forum to come vent your frustrations and I certainly don't begrudge you that. But you are going to meet a whole lot of pathological personality types in your career, and I would caution you against assuming they are all in surgery.

There are a lot of us - the majority, I would argue - that are happy, well/adjusted folks living the dream. I'm sorry that your experience in the coolest field in medicine got tainted with a few bad apples.

Keep your head down. Stay strong. Live to fight another day.

(And maybe give surgery another shot with an elective or something. I promise, it's a really cool field)

 

[ohyeahbaby]

It's hard, and maybe unwise in some respects, to say to yourself "I love this specialty, everyone seems miserable though and treats me like crap, but maybe that won't be me, maybe this won't be my experience, maybe I'll go somewhere where people are nicer". I'm rambling. I just think it doesn't have to be this way.

very nicely said

 

[45408]

Med students are "weaker" than residents, sure, but I think some personalities who are hard ***** dont mesh well with students. This isn't boot camp or the military. That's where a lot of the venting comes from. It's one thing to want students to work hard and realize their full potential. It's another thing to have an attitude with people you work with, not being calm(one resident was literally running around every 5 minutes and we were afraid he would snap one day), and not being friendly to people.

Unleashing your stress on the students is never appropriate. I try not to ignore the students, but if I'm really busy and swamped, you can either follow me or go read or something. I often tell them they don't have to follow me when it's like that. I'll also send them home when there's a tedious case that's going to be going late. It sucks to be there, I know it does, so I tell them to leave so that they're not exhausted for no real reason. Now, if there's a rupturing AAA, I would tell them to stay.

When it comes down to it, even if you LOVE surgery, that's the only thing you can really do as a medical student.

I didn't have to "keep my head down" on my surgery rotation, or really any rotations. I got plenty of face time with quite a few attendings. If you want an LOR, don't keep your head down.

 

[tco]

I certainly don't think the stereotype fits the majority of students. On the contrary, the students I've encountered are usually diligent, humble, hard-working, and intelligent. However, I've encountered many stereotypes in my multiple training environments over the years. Would it be fair for me to say that "stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason?"

Yes, it would be fair for you to say that. It's the same reason that I don't get upset when I'm standing 3 feet from the Mayo and a scrub nurse that I've never worked with before yells across the room, "Don't touch anything on the tray!" when I'm not scrubbed in. Along the way, somewhere, possibly quite often, a medical student has contaminated the Mayo just before the surgery. That's the only reason that s/he would do that when I'm standing there with my arms crossed. I just say, "Alright, thank you." And take a step back. After they work with me for a few cases, they know me and the fact that I'm not a *****, and they lighten up a LOT. However, stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. I should be assumed to be an arrogant, condescending, know-it-all, who is lazy and whiney until proven otherwise. Why? I see it in my classmates ALL THE TIME.

However, there's no reason that the staff needs to combat the ***** medical student with the ****head surgeon stereotype. Tell me something once and I remember it forever. You don't need to repeat yourself over and over in a degrading tone. Let me prove to you that I'm not a *****, but for me to do that, you have to not be a ****head.

I didn't have to "keep my head down" on my surgery rotation, or really any rotations. I got plenty of face time with quite a few attendings. If you want an LOR, don't keep your head down.

Totally disagree. You ask if you can help, do what you're told, but keep your head down otherwise.