Deficient basic skills coming out of vet school

[willbvet]

I am a volunteer-a-mus, just kinda hanging out waiting to see if I get off a waitlist & into a DVM program. In the myriad of places I volunteer, I've run into several recent PVM graduates who don't know how to do a blood draw, or don't feel comfortable handling animals, or are deficient in some other basic skill I expected to come out of vet school knowing well. The first time I met a new dr. who lacked what I thought were very basic vet skills, I was really surprised. Now I've seen enough new dr.s & quite a few 3rd & 4th year students who do not have the skills I'd expect they would, that I've begun to think you really need to take responsibility to learn hands-on vet skills yourself, outside of the regular curriculum. I wanted to see if others have thoughts on this, or maybe current vet students want to chime in. I highly suspect that some schools have less of an issue w/this than others, but that's purely speculation. Love to hear comments.

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[bunnity]

Without knowing more about the situation I don't know if the new grads are deficient or your expectations of them are inaccurate.

Vet school is mainly focused on the things that only veterinarians can do: diagnosis, prognosis, and prescribing treatment. Learning how to put information together, to know differentials to consider, to formulate a treatment plan, to communicate it all to the client - that is the focus of vet school. We do a lot of hands-on work too (and paperwork. oh the paperwork) but the process of learning to be a veterinarian is probably a little different than what you are envisioning.

That said as an almost-grad I can draw blood and restrain animals no problem.

 

[Bernsters83]

Yup

 

[dyachei]

It's a vet school trend...new vet's expect the techs to be able to do it.

Where are you getting that info from? My classmates all entered school with varying degrees of experience and even with the experience in clinics, some were not confident. They may be just fine at doing them but not feel confident in them. It's really presumptuous to make claims like new vets expect techs to do them (there are some pets I'd rather have a SKILLED tech get blood from).

 

[Trilt]

Without knowing more about the situation I don't know if the new grads are deficient or your expectations of them are inaccurate.

Vet school is mainly focused on the things that only veterinarians can do: diagnosis, prognosis, and prescribing treatment. Learning how to put information together, to know differentials to consider, to formulate a treatment plan, to communicate it all to the client - that is the focus of vet school. We do a lot of hands-on work too (and paperwork. oh the paperwork) but the process of learning to be a veterinarian is probably a little different than what you are envisioning.

That said as an almost-grad I can draw blood and restrain animals no problem.

I think this is a great way to put it. Unfortunately, there are only so many times that you can have clinical skills worked into a curriculum, and it's something that really you just get better at by doing them lots - and lots of people come into vet school having never been techs and done a lot of that beforehand . I'm definitely one of those (about-to-be) third years who isn't super confident in my technical basic skills, but I'm working on it!

I also haven't had a ton of experience, so when I go to new clinics I definitely ask the doctors to show me the way they like to do technical things, not just jump straight in - for 3rd/4th years you're observing, this might be them doing something similar.

 

[LetItSnow]

It's a vet school trend...new vet's expect the techs to be able to do it.

I don't see that as a bad thing.

If you have a veterinarian with X years of experience out of school, and a tech with the same number of years of experience, that tech should (generally, with exceptions, insert caveats here for all the nitpickers in the crowd) kick the veterinarian's ass at technician-appropriate skills.

If they aren't, it means something is wrong: either you hired the wrong tech and they are skill-deficient, or you as the veterinarian are spending too much time doing blood draws and not enough time being a veterinarian.

Does a vet have to have a basic clinical competency that includes technical skills? Of course. But it's <smart> to "expect the tech to be able to do it." That's why you hired them.

 

[LetItSnow]

What is a PVM?

 

[Bernsters83]

Where are you getting that info from? My classmates all entered school with varying degrees of experience and even with the experience in clinics, some were not confident. They may be just fine at doing them but not feel confident in them. It's really presumptuous to make claims like new vets expect techs to do them (there are some pets I'd rather have a SKILLED tech get blood from).

 

[dyachei]

Presumptive haha OK. As they say, with experience comes wisdom my dear. Your sentiment of using techs to gather samples thereby “assisting” is shared with your peers and a shift from an older generation of veterinarians who would use techs to assist by restraining so they can collect their sample. There’s nothing wrong with this shift.

I don't expect techs to do all the work though I do expect to have highly trained techs that are likely better at blood draws than I am. That doesn't mean we are deficient though

 

[willbvet]

What is a PVM?

Professional veterinary medicine program, I should have said PVM program.

 

[Bernsters83]

I don't see that as a bad thing.

If you have a veterinarian with X years of experience out of school, and a tech with the same number of years of experience, that tech should (generally, with exceptions, insert caveats here for all the nitpickers in the crowd) kick the veterinarian's ass at technician-appropriate skills.

If they aren't, it means something is wrong: either you hired the wrong tech and they are skill-deficient, or you as the veterinarian are spending too much time doing blood draws and not enough time being a veterinarian.

Does a vet have to have a basic clinical competency that includes technical skills? Of course. But it's <smart> to "expect the tech to be able to do it." That's why you hired them.

 

[LetItSnow]

Professional veterinary medicine program, I should have said PVM program.

Ah. That's a new one on me.

 

[willbvet]

Without knowing more about the situation I don't know if the new grads are deficient or your expectations of them are inaccurate.

My skill expectations are on par with what most people would expect from someone coming out of vet school & are reasonable. The skills I've mentioned are standard skills. I'd add: being able to place a catheter, induce, calculate correct drug dosage, trim nails, pretty standard stuff that some of the new vets I've met were not confident doing or didn't have the practice to be able to do.
I also tend to work/volunteer more at nonprofits with strained budgets where the vet is more likely to be short-handed & have to jump in & do a blood draw or nail trim vs relying on a tech to do it for her/him. Even given that, I would expect any vet to be able to confidently do any of these tasks. I, personally, don't care if a tech is better at such skills than the vet, good for the tech if they are really good at being a tech. I was talking about a new vet having those skills & being able & confident to perform said skills. I wasn't trying to compare between the tech & vet for who is better at such skills.

 

[DVMDream]

Presumptive haha OK. As they say, with experience comes wisdom my dear. Your sentiment of using techs to gather samples thereby “assisting” is shared with your peers and a shift from an older generation of veterinarians who would use techs to assist by restraining so they can collect their sample. There’s nothing wrong with this shift.

This is a first on me. I have worked with older generation and newer generation vets, both of which wanted vet techs to set the catheters and draw blood samples. The reasoning is not because they wanted the techs doing the "grunt" work (I hardly consider these things grunt work) but because vet techs are generally better at doing those things. I actually had an older generation vet tell me that he wanted me setting the catheter on the HBC dog in shock, because my skills were more proficient than his.

I have never met a vet that expects techs to do all of the work, but I do not see any reason as to why a vet tech should not be plenty capable of setting an IV catheter or drawing the blood sample while the vet is busy maybe doing CPR/figuring out medications and dosages or discussing things with the client (all things that a tech can not do).

I have never worked with a vet who only wanted techs to assist by restraining animals. This includes both older generation and newer generation vets. I am going to hazard a guess that vets you have worked with are maybe out of the norm, to be honest.

 

[KCgophervet]

I'm another vet student who has almost zero clinical skills (unless you count mice and rats) and will probably take awhile to feel confident with these "basic" skills.

But honestly, in thinking about it, if you compare it to human medicine how often do you see a human doctor draw blood from a patient? It's always been nurses for me, which I equate to a vet tech. Just a thought.

 

[Bernsters83]

I don't expect techs to do all the work though I do expect to have highly trained techs that are likely better at blood draws than I am. That doesn't mean we are deficient though

 

[DVMDream]

My skill expectations are on par with what most people would expect from someone coming out of vet school. The skills I've mentioned are standard skills. I'd add: being able to place a catheter, induce, calculate correct drug dosage, trim nails, pretty standard stuff that some of the new vets I've met were not confident doing or didn't have the practice to be able to do.
I also tend to work/volunteer more at nonprofits with strained budgets where the vet is more likely to be short handed & have to jump in & do a quick blood draw

Vet school is meant to train vets to diagnose, know what medications to give and how to communicate treatment/diagnosis/prognosis with the owner. There are some technical skills that are taught/learned, but when vet techs working in the hospitals are in charge of blood draws/IV catheter setting, the vet students don't really get that experience. And for anyone to become "good" or "confident" in these skills, you have to do them repetitively and there is just not that opportunity while you are in vet school. So, in vet school, if you want to become proficient in these "technical" skills you are going to have to seek out your own opportunities, which you may or may not have the time to do. Vet school doesn't even teach you drug dosages they expect that you can pull down a book and figure it out for yourself. A lot of vet school and the first few years being out is figuring things out.

It is just one of those things again where people on the outside, having not experienced something (vet school) are judging with a lack of knowledge as to what really occurs in vet school.

I am fairly confident in my blood drawing/catheter setting skills, but I spent 7 years as a vet tech prior to going to vet school.

I guess I would look at it this way...

vet = doctor.

vet tech= nurse.

 

[LetItSnow]

My skill expectations are on par with what most people would expect from someone coming out of vet school & are reasonable. The skills I've mentioned are standard skills. I'd add: being able to place a catheter, induce, calculate correct drug dosage, trim nails, pretty standard stuff that some of the new vets I've met were not confident doing or didn't have the practice to be able to do.
I also tend to work/volunteer more at nonprofits with strained budgets where the vet is more likely to be short-handed & have to jump in & do a blood draw or nail trim vs relying on a tech to do it for her/him. Even given that, I would expect any vet to be able to confidently do any of these tasks. I, personally, don't care if a tech is better at such skills than the vet, good for the tech if they are really good at being a tech. I was talking about a new vet having those skills & being able & confident to perform said skills. I wasn't trying to compare between the tech & vet for who is better at such skills.

I think you're not being reasonable.

Look at it this way. You can go to vet school with zero clinical skill in those areas that you're talking about. So what you appear to be expecting is that someone will spend the next four years developing a clinician-level knowledge of how to prevent, diagnose, and treat disease .... AND while they're doing it develop some expert-level physical skill ability?

No. That's just not how it's taught. I personally think your expectation is out of line with the reality of how much information is delivered during vet school.

You need to come out of vet school able to <safely> execute those clinical skills. Not 'confidently', and definitely not at some 'expert level' competence. That's what experience is for. The goal of vet school (with regard to clinical physical skill) is to teach you to know when you need to do it (i.e. is this an NE tube situation, an E-tube, a G-tube....) and how to do it safely. But there are many tasks you may have only done once or twice: if you're doing those confidently then you're probably doing them over-confidently.

 

[twelvetigers]

It's a bit of a chicken/egg situation... I never learned how to do blood draws because I was always doing restraint so that the vet I worked for could do the blood draws. I would know how to do them if I had more practice as a tech.

It's definitely something we can (and will) learn, but there is a big difference between your 30th jug stick and your 300th jug stick. I won't get to do *that* many during 4th year simply because I won't have *that* many patients. There are limitations.

 

[twelvetigers]

I don't mean to imply that you are because if push came to shove I'm sure you'd get your sample. I was commenting on recent grads ever-increasing reliance on technician help. Also it's very disheartening to have to explain to a vet during necropsies what the organs look like and how to orient the body to find them.

The latter sounds a bit suspicious - I would be concerned too.

How long have you been working in the industry that you have seen a progression of reliance on technicians in new grads?

 

[willbvet]

No I'm not in vet school, but I do volunteer & work with vet students, have friends in vet school & volunteer at the vet school (which does have a PVM program for those of you who haven't seen that term before) where I help the vet students & work w/the vets who teach at the school & sit in on lectures while I'm there. I understand that the emphasis is on knowledge & putting it all together in order to come up with a differential list, diagnose & treat. I get that. Is expecting a person who wears the title of DVM to be able to draw blood & do other basic skills unusual? Perhaps we disagree about this & that's ok.

 

[DVMDream]

No I'm not in vet school, but I do volunteer & work with vet students, have friends in vet school & volunteer at the vet school (which does have a PVM program for those of you who haven't seen that term before) where I help the vet students & work w/the vets who teach at the school & sit in on lectures while I'm there. I understand that the emphasis is on knowledge & putting it all together in order to come up with a differential list, diagnose & treat. I get that. Is expecting a person who wears the title of DVM to be able to draw blood & do other basic skills unusual? Perhaps we disagree about this & that's ok.

I guess you have to ask yourself that. Do I think a vet should be able to draw blood if needed? Yes. Do I think or expect that a vet will be better than a vet tech? No.

Ask this same question to yourself but change vet to doctor or MD and change vet tech to nurse. When was the last time you saw your doctor draw blood or set a catheter? Last time my doctor (MD) tired, I was thankful he gave up after one shot and asked me to come back when the nurse was available... she was much better at it. (Probably because it is the nurse's job and not the doctor's).

 

[LetItSnow]

No I'm not in vet school, but I do volunteer & work with vet students, have friends in vet school & volunteer at the vet school (which does have a PVM program for those of you who haven't seen that term before) where I help the vet students & work w/the vets who teach at the school & sit in on lectures while I'm there. I understand that the emphasis is on knowledge & putting it all together in order to come up with a differential list, diagnose & treat. I get that. Is expecting a person who wears the title of DVM to be able to draw blood & do other basic skills unusual? Perhaps we disagree about this & that's ok.

I guess I just think it's a dumb question, because it's too vague. Do you expect them "to be able to"? Well... yes. But earlier you said you expect them to be able to do it "confidently". What does that really MEAN? The fact that your question morphs kinda says a fair bit.....

I think you need to trim back your expectations and recognize that new grads are new, inexperienced doctors with a wide variety of clinical skill experience under their belt. And that's ok.

Dunno. You just seem awfully judgmental. Especially for someone with no professional credentials to judge the people you're judging.

 

[DVMDream]

No I'm not in vet school, but I do volunteer & work with vet students, have friends in vet school & volunteer at the vet school (which does have a PVM program for those of you who haven't seen that term before) where I help the vet students & work w/the vets who teach at the school & sit in on lectures while I'm there. I understand that the emphasis is on knowledge & putting it all together in order to come up with a differential list, diagnose & treat. I get that. Is expecting a person who wears the title of DVM to be able to draw blood & do other basic skills unusual? Perhaps we disagree about this & that's ok.

I have a question for you.... have you ever drawn blood? Set an IV catheter? You say you are only a volunteer, so I would guess chances are more likely you haven't, but the chance is there that you have. I am just curious if you have any really "vet tech" experience or if you are sitting back saying this all as an observer while volunteering.

 

[twelvetigers]

No I'm not in vet school, but I do volunteer & work with vet students, have friends in vet school & volunteer at the vet school (which does have a PVM program for those of you who haven't seen that term before) where I help the vet students & work w/the vets who teach at the school & sit in on lectures while I'm there. I understand that the emphasis is on knowledge & putting it all together in order to come up with a differential list, diagnose & treat. I get that. Is expecting a person who wears the title of DVM to be able to draw blood & do other basic skills unusual? Perhaps we disagree about this & that's ok.

It takes a lot of practice. You have to stab a lot of animals with needles.

You don't get to stab any animals on like, radiology rotation.

You get to stab a few horses during your equine rotations, but hell, drawing blood from a horse jugular is like drawing blood from a garden hose - you just have to get the horse to stand still.

I have yet to draw blood from a horse, by the way.

So you have a few small animal rotations that have non-emergency situations where you will be able to get some practice in, and then you have some preceptors. It's definitely helpful, but it will in no way make you proficient. If you didn't come into school knowing it, it will take some time once you graduate to learn how to do it well. And that's awkward if you are ever drawing blood in front of the client...

 

[DVMDream]

You get to stab a few horses during your equine rotations, but hell, drawing blood from a horse jugular is like drawing blood from a garden hose - you just have to get the horse to stand still.



.

I have this massive fear that I will completely miss getting blood from a horse, but will be just fine getting blood from a 2 pound kitten...

I am not a horse person, give me a pissed off cat any day.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I'm fairly confident in my phlebotomy skills (I've been poking away since 2003, and have done many hundreds during school) but even then, when I'm in clinics and I go a few rotations that don't allow me to practice these skills, it gets a lil rusty after a couple of months. The first couple I do after a long break can be somewhat iffy, but I get my groove back after that. This is especially true if judgy people are watching. Same thing with surgery. I'm pretty damn good for a soon to be grad, but if I go a few months in between surgeries, the first one back takes longer. I don't think that's all that uncommon. When I'm on a rotation where you regularly place IVCs, I'll quickly get to the point where I will go 10 or so in a row without missing any, and I tend to 'give them away' to others who aren't as comfortable once I'm on a roll. But I was recently failed at it during a job interview, which was mortifying. I'm sure the tech at that practice thought I was incompetent.

Words that someone very wise said to me once: You wouldn't want others to judge you at your worst moments, so you should give others the courtesy to not do it either. The sheer volume of knowledge that veterinarians need to know and the number of skills they need to learn to perform are tremendous. On any given day, a new grad will inevitably say something stupid, not know something they probably should, and/or fail at some skill that might seem basic to you. That does not make them incompetent. If you think it does, you have absolutely no idea what being a doctor is about. You probably don't even know enough to count the number of things they've done right in a day. And give those 3rd and 4th years a break, they're hardly getting out of the classroom! I am performing at an unrecognizably different level now compared to 6 months ago.

It's also actually kind of ugly of you to be sitting there being judgmental and tallying up every single time a vet student/new grad does something wrong just to prove to yourself (and apparently us too) how incapable vets these days are. Quite clearly, someone f***ed up when they put such a capable and wise person on the waitlist instead of all these other idiots they're turning out.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I have this massive fear that I will completely miss getting blood from a horse, but will be just fine getting blood from a 2 pound kitten...

I am not a horse person, give me a pissed off cat any day.

Oh don't worry, it's literally a hose. You seriously can't miss it. And their skin's so soft it's not like jabbing into a cow's neck.

 

[LetItSnow]

I have this massive fear that I will completely miss getting blood from a horse, but will be just fine getting blood from a 2 pound kitten...

I wouldn't put that laughing smiley out there and taunt fate, because I guarantee you it will happen and you'll feel like the biggest putz around.

 

[LetItSnow]

I'm fairly confident in my phlebotomy skills (I've been poking away since 2003, and have done many hundreds during school) but even then, when I'm in clinics and I go a few rotations that don't allow me to practice these skills, it gets a lil rusty after a couple of months.

... and there are some that just plain don't go your way. If it hurts your pride, you're over-thinking it; that's my opinion. I've had nights in ICU where I doubt I could get blood from a healthy adult Greyhound, and nights I can spear a 5-lb hypotensive dehydrated cat with my eyes closed. I've seen 20-year incredibly talented techs throw their hands up and say "someone else do this one." *shrug* It is what it is.

.... and then when you miss that easy one there's inevitably some pre-vet student standing there judging your clinical skills.

 

[DVMDream]

I wouldn't put that laughing smiley out there and taunt fate, because I guarantee you it will happen and you'll feel like the biggest putz around.

Yeah, it probably will.... perhaps I can make up for it when I hit the rolling vein on the squirming, screaming, moving kitten?

 

[willbvet]

I guess you have to ask yourself that. Do I think a vet should be able to draw blood if needed? Yes. Do I think or expect that a vet will be better than a vet tech? No.

I said in a post above that my issue isn't who's better the tech or the vet...It doesn't matter to me at all & isn't at all what I've been talking about. I agree w/you about the nurse vs a doctor in the example you gave. However, I don't think that analogy is always applicable to a vet & a tech. Different clinics have different systems & most of the private practices I am familiar with required the vet to do a lot more hands on than one would see in human medicine where there is a phlebotomist, lab tech, nurse etc. As I mentioned, the non profits I am familiar with definitely require their vets to be flexible & capable in all areas of vet medicine, including the hands-on skills.

 

[LetItSnow]

My motivation wasn't to stir any pots, but this post clearly seems to have done so!

I think it's because you're most likely not in a very good position as a pre-vet to judge the clinical skill of a new grad, and because, as MB pointed out - we all fail at things. If you're sitting there just judging all the things they fail at and not handing out credit for all the things they succeeded at - some of which, as she also pointed out - you aren't even competent enough to recognize as successes .... it's just not very reasonable.

It's nothing personal. But really, I'd sit on the criticism until you've gotten through vet school and are in a better position to assess.

 

[DVMDream]

I said in a post above that my issue isn't who's better the tech or the vet...It doesn't matter to me at all & isn't at all what I've been talking about. I agree w/you about the nurse vs a doctor in the example you gave. However, I don't think that analogy is always applicable to a vet & a tech. Different clinics have different systems & most of the private practices I am familiar with required the vet to do a lot more hands on than one would see in human medicine where there is a phlebotomist, lab tech, nurse etc. As I mentioned, the non profits I am familiar with definitely require their vets to be flexible & capable in all areas of vet medicine, including the hands-on skills.

I am currently doing a preceptorship at a non-profit... the vet techs do all blood draws/IV catheters/draw up meds/induce anesthesia/intubate the patients and then monitor the anesthesia....

 

[DVMDream]

I said in a post above that my issue isn't who's better the tech or the vet...It doesn't matter to me at all & isn't at all what I've been talking about. I agree w/you about the nurse vs a doctor in the example you gave. However, I don't think that analogy is always applicable to a vet & a tech. Different clinics have different systems & most of the private practices I am familiar with required the vet to do a lot more hands on than one would see in human medicine where there is a phlebotomist, lab tech, nurse etc. As I mentioned, the non profits I am familiar with definitely require their vets to be flexible & capable in all areas of vet medicine, including the hands-on skills.

It also depends on what you consider hands-on skills? Vets do a lot of hands on things without ever having to draw blood. I think you still have a lot to learn about vet med if you can't really see/recognize this.

 

[willbvet]

I think it's because you're most likely not in a very good position as a pre-vet to judge the clinical skill of a new grad, and because, as MB pointed out - we all fail at things. If you're sitting there just judging all the things they fail at and not handing out credit for all the things they succeeded at - some of which, as she also pointed out - you aren't even competent enough to recognize as successes ..

I'm not criticizing. I've stated what I've observed & was wondering what people thought or if they'd observed the same thing or had a different experience or insights. That's all.

 

[LetItSnow]

I'm not criticizing. I've stated what I've observed & was wondering what people thought or if they'd observed the same thing or had a different experience or insights. That's all.

Oh. If you're not criticizing, then why do you have "expectations" that you think are "reasonable" that you appear to think vets aren't living up to? That pretty much defines criticizing.

My skill expectations are on par with what most people would expect from someone coming out of vet school & are reasonable. [...] Even given that, I would expect any vet to be able to confidently do any of these tasks. [...] I was talking about a new vet having those skills & being able & confident to perform said skills.

*shrug* Seems critical to me. Especially considering you aren't in a position to be considered an expert (and therefore qualified to criticize).

Anyway. I think you've gotten your answer.

 

[DVMDream]

I'm not criticizing. I've stated what I've observed & was wondering what people thought or if they'd observed the same thing or had a different experience or insights. That's all.

You never did answer my question... Have you ever drawn blood or set an IV catheter? How confident are you in these things? Can you do this on a lab? What about a dachshund? Can you do this on an actively seizing patient? How about a dog in cardiac arrest? What is your confidence level?

 

[willbvet]

I am currently doing a preceptorship at a non-profit... the vet techs do .

I have a question for you.... have you ever drawn blood? Set an IV

Yep, I do draw blood, place catheters, intibate, monitor anesthesia, give vaccinations, etc. at the non-profit clinic where I work as a tech & also do the same at a non-profit rescue that relies on volunteer techs on surgery days. In case you want to know, I work as a tech 20 hours a week and volunteer as a tech between 5-10 hours a week.

 

[willbvet]

You never did answer my question... Have you ever drawn blood or set an IV catheter? How confident are you in these things? Can you do this on a lab? What about a dachshund? Can you do this on an actively seizing patient? How about a dog in cardiac arrest? What is your confidence level?

Well, hum, maybe we should up the anti & ask me if I can do any of these things upside down or possibly in an earth quake? I mean really! Come on. I asked a question, hoping for a productive discussion. Was hoping to hear if other vet schools had more hands-on experience or if this was the norm & I've gotten really direct & personal attacks directed at me, had my opinion & competence to even ask the question be challenged in a number of ways. Whatever.

 

[DVMDream]

Yep, I do draw blood, place catheters, intibate, monitor anesthesia, give vaccinations, etc. at the non-profit clinic where I work as a tech & also do the same at a non-profit rescue that relies on volunteer techs on surgery days.

Great, then you are lucky like me to have received so much wonderful experience prior to getting into vet school. You will have the wonderful opportunity to pass on this knowledge and help your fellow vet students who were not as lucky as us to learn these things. Having the knowledge to do something is good, being able to pass on that knowledge and not be judgmental of people that have yet to get that experience is the most wonderful feeling.

 

[DVMDream]

Well, hum, maybe we should up the anti & ask me if I can do any of these things upside down or possibly in an earth quake? I mean really! Come on. I asked a question, hoping for a productive discussion. Was hoping to hear if other vet schools had more hands-on experience or if this was the norm & I've gotten really direct & personal attacks directed at me, had my opinion & competence to even ask the question be challenged in a number if ways. Whatever!

You were being a judgmental prick whether you intended to be or not. And yes, if you are going to be judgmental of people and their skill level of doing something, you bet your arse I will ask your skill level. Also, you are not adequately qualified to be judging vet students. Until you get into vet school, I don't want to hear it. How about instead of judging people, why don't you teach them? I've had plenty of experience doing these tech things but I know not all of my classmates have been that lucky. I don't roll my eyes and I don't judge them, I patiently teach them how to do it. Everyone has to start somewhere and for some people that isn't until final year of vet school. The last thing those people need is a volunteer/pre-vet ridiculing them for not having prior opportunities to learn some of these skills.

 

[willbvet]

I see now that I am the judgy, devil incarnate for deigning to have an opinion pre-vetschool. Best I accept that now & embrace my awfulness. I shall get a shirt made with that on it.

 

[dyachei]

Seriously though, are you sure they can't do it? Or does it just seem that way? There's a period of incompetent competence that you pass through when learning a new skill. And it happens almost right before the confident competence stage.

I am a newish vet. I don't expect my techs/assistants to do everything, but I do hire them for their skills. While I'm pretty confident in my skills, sometimes I pass it off. The problem with saying that the dr/nurse vet/tech dynamic isn't the same is that many vets don't know how to let other people do things. I feel that it should be more similar than it is. It is inefficient for me to not be doing vet things because I had to draw blood or look at a fecal.

We don't need to be snarky with each other, but the first post definitely got me riled up language wise and the condescending attitudes are not helpful, either. Maybe they deal with horses normally and you're asking them to step outside their comfort zone and restrain a wiggling cat, I don't know. I do know that when I was just out of school I could do a lot more than I felt comfortable with

 

[shortnsweet]

Oh don't worry, it's literally a hose. You seriously can't miss it. And their skin's so soft it's not like jabbing into a cow's neck.

There are some days where even equine vets can't hit the damn thing (fuzzy ponies come to mind).

Most of my experience is in equine, so I came in with little to no smallies or cow experience, and was never a hired tech. Over 5 years my skills have developed in all areas, but unless you practice every single day, you probably aren't going to be very good come graduation. And I don't think any of us will be super confident with anything majorly surgical for a while. It's all about experience. As a student, you usually get one try and you're done. For blood draws and catheters here, you get to try once or twice. If you miss, the nurse does it.

 

[that redhead]

I am a volunteer-a-mus, just kinda hanging out waiting to see if I get off a waitlist & into a DVM program. In the myriad of places I volunteer, I've run into several recent PVM graduates who don't know how to do a blood draw, or don't feel comfortable handling animals, or are deficient in some other basic skill I expected to come out of vet school knowing well. The first time I met a new dr. who lacked what I thought were very basic vet skills, I was really surprised. Now I've seen enough new dr.s & quite a few 3rd & 4th year students who do not have the skills I'd expect they would, that I've begun to think you really need to take responsibility to learn hands-on vet skills yourself, outside of the regular curriculum. I wanted to see if others have thoughts on this, or maybe current vet students want to chime in. I highly suspect that some schools have less of an issue w/this than others, but that's purely speculation. Love to hear comments.

My thoughts on the matter are in the thread about getting vet experience before vet school by mysterymare.

Basically, I think this is pretty common. You do need to take the initiative to become proficient in these skills since the only exposure we get is a couple of hands on labs and then our junior surgery and rotations. Often times in practice the vet isn't expected to do all of the technical work, though, so I don't think it's a huge deal.

After reading thread more carefully (whoops), I have to agree with everyone saying that, essentially, the vet has more important things to do than drawing blood, running fecals, etc.

 

[willbvet]

Seriously though, are you sure they can't do it? Or does it just seem that way? There's a period of incompetent competence that you pass through when learning a new skill. And it happens almost right before the confident competence stage.

I was being direct in my original quote, I had no intention of being snarky or condescending. It seems to have come off like that from the tone of the responses. Being snarky is not how I am, I am however direct and this is the internet, things can easily be read into a statement. I have responded by not returning the personal, aggressive & quite frankly, pretty darn snarky tone some have chosen, when responding back hoping that we could move to a more productive place until the last two posts where I was not in personal -attack mode towards the poster, but was clearly exasperated &, yes, snarky.
If a person looks at what I originally wrote, I am talking about what I've seen & asking if vet school has/is preparing people w/said skills or if they need to go outside the curriculum to learn these skills. If people have different experiences at different vet schools.
The one new vet has openly & on multiple occasions stated that she thought she'd be more experienced. She has said that she feels insecure about blood draws & feels bad about it. She expected to receive more practice in vet school. Initially she told me she didn't know how to restrain a dog or cat. I do not expect people coming out of vet school to be wonder-vets, there is a definite learning curve & that is normal. I don't think I ever said I expected anyone to be an expert. I do however think that there are some expectations people have of what a vet is capable of doing & doing w/confidence. Having expectations is not the same as being judgemental.
I also have frequent talks w/the vet students who come into volunteer. Quite a few of them have also expressed that they were surprised at how much they had to go outside of class & take the initiative in order to learn said skills or that they wish more time was given in the local vet school to practice & become comfortable & proficient at the basic stuff,(I'm not even going to go into surgery skills). Many of the students I've gotten into longer conversations w/didn't expect that they'd need to volunteer outside of class so much in order to feel comfortable doing simple things like nail trims or taking blood. I've also had experience w/ two other private practices where new vets were working. Although they did not say it, a person could easily tell that they felt insecure & did not feel good due to their lack of skill level for the basic stuff. I've also been around new vets who were very confident w/basic skills. Does a dog w/a fatty abdomen maybe take them over an hour to spay, yes, but that is normal learning curve & not a blood draw. I agree that vets are not techs & am not saying that they should be. I was posting the question more because I'm not in vet school & wanting to come out as a competitive candidate. If I am accepted at my IS school, gauging from the discussions I've had w/people going there/recently graduates, I'm pretty sure I'll need to go on as many spay neuter trips as I can & figure out a way to squeeze on volunteering so that I will be competitive. I also really do not want to feel the way the one new vet feels if I can take measures to not feel that way. I was also thinking that if people from other schools felt like they were given more opportunities for hands-on experience, that I would look at applying to those schools more closely next cycle if I don't get into my IS this cycle.

 

[dyachei]

The truth is you asked a leading question straight out of the gate so of course you're going to get remarks like you did. I don't think our definitions of basic skills are even the same. Restraint is not a basic skill most vets need. Physical exam is. I firmly believe in being comfortable with these other skills because I want to be able to teach them, not because I need to be able to do them.

It seems like all these students have 1 thing in common: they expected the school to know they were deficient and teach to their deficiency instead of knowing that if there's something you want to do better, you should work on it on your own. Vet school is entirely what you make of it. There are so many opportunities to take advantage of that it's ridiculous

 

[DVMDream]

I have to agree with dyachei, you started off with a very critical first post of others and people actually responded quite nicely to you. They mentioned that vet school isn't probably what you are expecting and that the time and opportunities you have to do the things you mentioned in vet school are far and few between. They said that you would need to seek out your own opportunities if you want to become more confident in any of those things. There was also someone that mentioned that maybe your expectations are too high and not on par with what actually goes on in vet school. Instead of taking all these things as your answer (i.e. that vet school really does not teach much hands on and you have to seek out experiences), you disagreed with people and suggested that your expectations are on par with what a vet should be able to "confidently" do.

It is a bit condescending when a person (who has not been in vet school) is telling people how they think it should be and that new vets just are not up to par with that. If you think on it, do you really have the right to decide what a new vet should or should not be able to do with confidence? I don't think I have that right and I am in vet school. To add to it further, you didn't just say this about new grads you also mentioned that 3rd and 4th year vet students can't do these things either. These are students that have just gotten out of two to three years of sitting in a classroom for 8+ hours/day. studying endlessly and taking exams. There are going to be some of these students who have never before drawn blood, some of them may have never even given an injection before and you are expecting them to not only be able to draw blood but to be able to do it with confidence... I think that is where people took offense.

Also, since you have worked as a tech, you should know that there are just those days/weeks that are "bad blood draw weeks" and you can't for the life of you hit the jugular vein on the Great Dane that you would normally be able to get with your eyes closed. It happens. I have seen very experienced techs walk away from all blood things for a week just because they have been having a bad week and come back to it the next week. So, if experienced techs can't always succeed expecting a vet student who may not have done many or any blood draws to be confident and successful is asking a bit much.

 

[shortnsweet]

I have to agree with dyachei, you started off with a very critical first post of others and people actually responded quite nicely to you. They mentioned that vet school isn't probably what you are expecting and that the time and opportunities you have to do the things you mentioned in vet school are far and few between. They said that you would need to seek out your own opportunities if you want to become more confident in any of those things. There was also someone that mentioned that maybe your expectations are too high and not on par with what actually goes on in vet school. Instead of taking all these things as your answer (i.e. that vet school really does not teach much hands on and you have to seek out experiences), you disagreed with people and suggested that your expectations are on par with what a vet should be able to "confidently" do.

It is a bit condescending when a person (who has not been in vet school) is telling people how they think it should be and that new vets just are not up to par with that. If you think on it, do you really have the right to decide what a new vet should or should not be able to do with confidence? I don't think I have that right and I am in vet school. To add to it further, you didn't just say this about new grads you also mentioned that 3rd and 4th year vet students can't do these things either. These are students that have just gotten out of two to three years of sitting in a classroom for 8+ hours/day. studying endlessly and taking exams. There are going to be some of these students who have never before drawn blood, some of them may have never even given an injection before and you are expecting them to not only be able to draw blood but to be able to do it with confidence... I think that is where people took offense.

Also, since you have worked as a tech, you should know that there are just those days/weeks that are "bad blood draw weeks" and you can't for the life of you hit the jugular vein on the Great Dane that you would normally be able to get with your eyes closed. It happens. I have seen very experienced techs walk away from all blood things for a week just because they have been having a bad week and come back to it the next week. So, if experienced techs can't always succeed expecting a vet student who may not have done many or any blood draws to be confident and successful is asking a bit much.

Exactly this.