Demographics?

[Aspiratory]

Hi,

I'm having some difficulty deciding what demographic to tick on my application. I was born in Pakistan, and moved to the United States when I was six. My mother is Arabic, and having had spent most of my time around Middle-eastern people growing up (mosques and such), I'd say I pretty much identify with the Arabic community.

I'm not sure whether or not I should write Caucasian (which is what Arabic people are supposed to mark) or South Asian. I hate to be that person, but I do want to know which one would benefit me more.

Physically, I feel my looks have always been confusing. If anything, people resort to calling me Spanish, unless they are South Asian, in which case they're able to properly identify me.

I just don't know which one I'd say I'm more of.

Best,
Logan

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[deleted535750]

Only you can decide how you feel you are. Maybe a sibling of yours has a similar dilemma and has found their answer?

If you want to see which benefits you more, take a gander:

https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

 

[allantois]

Writing Asian is of no benefit in terms of admissions

 

[Aspiratory]

Only you can decide how you feel you are. Maybe a sibling of yours has a similar dilemma and has found their answer?

If you want to see which benefits you more, take a gander:

https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

That's nuts! White applicants seem to have a far greater advantage than Asians, I would've never thought that. In the end, I just don't want to be seen as a liar. Because I have a physical appearance that's more congruous with Arabic, and I put White, will adcoms question my self-evaluation?

 

[LizzyM]

No one will care either way. Mark one or mark both.

 

[freemontie]

Well admissions-wise, based on your options, it's:
Hispanic>White>Asian>*South* Asian

I'm pretty sure South Asian (Indian) is the worst ethnicity for affirmative action effects in medical school admission.

 

[allantois]

Well admissions-wise, based on your options, it's:
Hispanic>White>Asian>*South* Asian

I'm pretty sure South Asian (Indian) is the worst ethnicity for affirmative action effects in medical school admission.

Hispanic Arab?

 

[freemontie]

Hispanic Arab?

He said people are confused by his looks and often "resort to calling him Spanish".

So I say.......⋆poof⋆.....be Hispanic.

 

[Aspiratory]

No one will care either way. Mark one or mark both.

Really? Ok, well, considering my name isn't very asian, I guess I will put down White/Caucasian. I don't know the stats look better for White people, aided by the fact that I don't really recognize with the South asian community.

 

[Aspiratory]

He said people are confused by his looks and often "resort to calling him Spanish".

So I say.......⋆poof⋆.....be Hispanic.

Ah....idk, I feel like that would be cheating. Also do we have to disclose our faith in these applications? I'm a Muslim, but I don't know if that would help me or hurt me. I know it seems silly, but in my year off working for the Fed, I faced a lot of discrimination during my job hunt when I put down my Islamic roots. However, once I stopped putting that, I got called back a lot more, and eventually found a job within two weeks....it was nuts.

But, I'm not spanish. I can't speak spanish. I don't have any spanish culture. I mean as far as being an immigrant goes, though I talk about it in my Personal Statement, I'd consider myself pretty whitewashed.

 

[freemontie]

Ah....idk, I feel like that would be cheating. Also do we have to disclose our faith in these applications? I'm a Muslim, but I don't know if that would help me or hurt me. I know it seems silly, but in my year off working for the Fed, I faced a lot of discrimination during my job hunt when I put down my Islamic roots. However, once I stopped putting that, I got called back a lot more, and eventually found a job within two weeks....it was nuts.

But, I'm not spanish. I can't speak spanish. I don't have any spanish culture. I mean as far as being an immigrant goes, though I talk about it in my Personal Statement, I'd consider myself pretty whitewashed.

Re: Cheating: Yes, it is. (But affirmative action could, potentially, cheat you out of a spot in medical school. Liberal adcoms here will tell you that the spot was never yours to begin with and go off on a circular argument, but the fact remains if you go head to head against a Hispanic as an Asian, or even a Caucasian, you will lose.)

Re: Spanish Culture/Language: Nobody in Admissions is going to quiz you on your Spanish to determine the extent of your 'hispanic-ness'. Nor would anyone have the guts to question your self-identified race. Further, the race you identified as is just going to be on a file somewhere- your classmates and teachers will not know and thus would have no reason to suspect you of conning the Affirmative Action system.

 

[Aspiratory]

Re: Cheating: Yes, it is. (But affirmative action could, potentially, cheat you out of a spot in medical school. Liberal adcoms here will tell you that the spot was never yours to begin with and go off on a circular argument, but the fact remains if you go head to head against a Hispanic as an Asian, or even a Caucasian, you will lose.)

Re: Spanish Culture/Language: Nobody in Admissions is going to quiz you on your Spanish to determine the extent of your 'hispanic-ness'. Nor would anyone have the guts to question your self-identified race. Further, the race you identified as is just going to be on a file somewhere- your classmates and teachers will not know and thus would have no reason to suspect you of conning the Affirmative Action system.

Really? I heard that if you lie about your demographics, and they find out (I mean, on my census and taxes and stuff, I still put White or Asian depending on the year), it's grounds for dismissal. Seems bit of a silly risk to me. I'd feel **** about it anyways.

 

[Lucca]

Really? I heard that if you lie about your demographics, and they find out (I mean, on my census and taxes and stuff, I still put White or Asian depending on the year), it's grounds for dismissal. Seems bit of a silly risk to me. I'd feel **** about it anyways.

This should be the beginning and the end of your consideration of ticking hispanic if you do not identify as hispanic in any way, shape, or form.

You say you identify mostly with the Arabic community so I would say go ahead and tick Caucasian. While Caucasian is technically geographically and ethnically correct, I am sorry that we haven't made space for the diverse swath of Middle-Eastern people in census boxes. But that's the way it is. Being a Muslim should not impact your application any way or another. I don't think there's a big difference - as in, critical to your interviewing at a school - between Caucasian and South Asian.

 

[freemontie]

Really? I heard that if you lie about your demographics, and they find out (I mean, on my census and taxes and stuff, I still put White or Asian depending on the year), it's grounds for dismissal. Seems bit of a silly risk to me. I'd feel **** about it anyways.

No. Nobody is going to step onto the politically-incorrect mine field of questioning someone's self-identified ethnicity.

Census: No. Tax Returns: Only if send it to them (e.g. need-based scholarships may ask). But even that is extremely unlikely to cause problems. e.g. Mom is Hispanic and dad is Arabic, self-identification is by definition a decision- it can change.

 

[freemontie]

You say you identify mostly with the Arabic community so I would say go ahead and tick Caucasian. While Caucasian is technically geographically and ethnically correct, I am sorry that we haven't made space for the diverse swath of Middle-Eastern people in census boxes. But that's the way it is. Being a Muslim should not impact your application any way or another. I don't think there's a big difference - as in, critical to your interviewing at a school - between Caucasian and South Asian.

That's probably because people smarter than you realize it's irrational enough. Where does it end? Let's sort & differentiate humans even further based on the tiniest of differences. Next step: Kurdish-American vs. Turkoman-American vs. Armenian-American vs. Yazidi-American. Nobody with half a sense and rudimentary knowledge of population genetics would care.

 

[breezy124]

South asian is def the worst. It's like the definition of ORM lol

 

[Lucca]

That's probably because people smarter than you realize it's irrational enough. Where does it end? Let's sort & differentiate humans even further based on the tiniest of differences. Next step: Kurdish-American vs. Turkoman-American vs. Armenian-American vs. Yazidi-American. Nobody with half a sense and rudimentary knowledge of population genetics would care.

The government should care enough to accurately appraise a population it serves after it has reached some critical mass. I think the Middle Eastern population has grown enough in the last two decades that another box would be warranted if we want to be serious about understanding the populations of our cities. There is no need to go into higher specificity, formally, because those groups just wouldn't have the critical mass. I don't think anyone outside of the government and admissions officers actually cares what people self-identify as.

 

[freemontie]

The government should care enough to accurately appraise a population it serves after it has reached some critical mass. I think the Middle Eastern population has grown enough in the last two decades that another box would be warranted if we want to be serious about understanding the populations of our cities. There is no need to go into higher specificity, formally, because those groups just wouldn't have the critical mass. I don't think anyone outside of the government and admissions officers actually cares what people self-identify as.

1) US population that identifies as having Arab ancestry (which seems to have a very fluid/misunderstood definition, btw) is about 1%.
2) We should promote the term "American" vs. "Something-American" whenever possible.
3) Generally speaking, factionalizing further on ethnic lines serves no good purpose. In history. Ever. One can only wish the Middle East hadn't gone so far down that road.

 

[efle]

I don't think anyone outside of the government and admissions officers actually cares what people self-identify as.

And even then not all admissions, as much as people like to champion population representative diversity as an essential part of education the UC system seems to be doing fine.

OP, the last thing you want to do is put Asian. Go with cauc

 

[Aspiratory]

3) Generally speaking, factionalizing further on ethnic lines serves no good purpose. In history. Ever. One can only wish the Middle East hadn't gone so far down that road.

Have you heard of the concepts of melting pot vs. cultural pluralism? Cultural pluralism promotes the retention of a personal cultural identity, whereas melting pot promotes movement towards a homogeneous society over a heterogenous one.

Research has shown that developing children are much better adjusted as adults, and have higher levels of self-efficacy, or ability, when their school system adopts cultural pluralism programs over melting pot ones.

Being an Arab in america is difficult. People judge you for your religion, and think they know you and your "oppressive" society before they even meet you. So, had I not had an encouraging environment to grow up in, where I met people from my society and understood my religion, I feel like I would have feelings of shame stemming from my Arab ancestry, which the majority of America wants Arabs to have. I don't know, my .02 cents.

 

[LizzyM]

There is no place on your application to list religion. You may list experiences that reveal your religion or you may leave them out.

There aren't many self-identifying Hispanics born in Pakistan so that might garner a question at interview just out of curiosity of how an ethnically Hispanic family ended up having a baby born in Pakistan... you don't want to be on the receiving end of that question if it is going to require making up a story.... Don't let anyone derail your application, OP, by convincing you that you can get an advantage by mis-identifying your ethnicity.

Furthermore, in seeking individuals who can meet the needs of a diverse population in America, languages are important and you are asked to list your language skills on the application and what languages were spoken at home as well as what other languages you speak/read/write. Any language that is spoken by non-English speaking people in a geographic region in the US can be an advantage when applying in that geographic area because an adcom sees that you may meet a need to serve a specific non-English speaking community. So, if you are fluent in Arabic you may gain traction in areas with substantial numbers of new immigrants from Arabic speaking countries.

 

[Aspiratory]

There is no place on your application to list religion. You may list experiences that reveal your religion or you may leave them out.

There aren't many self-identifying Hispanics born in Pakistan so that might garner a question at interview just out of curiosity of how an ethnically Hispanic family ended up having a baby born in Pakistan... you don't want to be on the receiving end of that questihtermon if it is going to require making up a story.... Don't let anyone derail your application, OP, by convincing you that you can get an advantage by mis-identifying your ethnicity.

Furthermore, in seeking individuals who can meet the needs of a diverse population in America, languages are important and you are asked to list your language skills on the application and what languages were spoken at home as well as what other languages you speak/read/write. Any language that is spoken by non-English speaking people in a geographic region in the US can be an advantage when applying in that geographic area because an adcom sees that you may meet a need to serve a specific non-English speaking community. So, if you are fluent in Arabic you may gain traction in areas with substantial numbers of new immigrants from Arabic speaking countries.

Oh, c'mon, I hope no one thought I was considering this. I think it's ludicrous. Aside from the fact that I do believe in affirmative action, and feel that it does serve a purpose in our society, the point is simply that I'm not a liar. I would hate to start out my experience in Medical School on a lie. Additionally, even though the demographics portion of my application might not affect my ultimate acceptance, I'd always feel as if it would, and wouldn't feel like I deserved a seat even if I'd gotten it (something to think about for those of your considering fudging the demographics!).

At this point, I think I am going to write down White/Caucasian, even though I am a tan Arab. I wrote about my Bedouin heritage in my essays, and spoke about growing up in a Bedouin village before moving to America. I've always been closer to my mum's family, and don't even understand the basics of South Asian Culture.

Thanks for this debate though! Hopefully this thread helps someone in the future going through a similar issue.

 

[Goro]

Arabs are Caucasians, FYI.

At this point, I think I am going to write down White/Caucasian, even though I am a tan Arab.

 

[Aspiratory]

Arabs are Caucasians, FYI.

At this point, I think I am going to write down White/Caucasian, even though I am a tan Arab.

Ya I don't know why they just wouldn't make it easier for me and make a spot for Middle Eastern people. I mean, I'm not white. But I guess I am white?

-______-

 

[pharamacy_yo]

Well admissions-wise, based on your options, it's:
Hispanic>White>Asian>*South* Asian

I'm pretty sure South Asian (Indian) is the worst ethnicity for affirmative action effects in medical school admission.

Why do south asians have it worse than other asian groups? I would think they are the minority in terms of classifying ethnicities. There are definitely more Chinese in American alone than are South Asians.

 

[efle]

Why do south asians have it worse than other asian groups? I would think they are the minority in terms of classifying ethnicities. There are definitely more Chinese in American alone than are South Asians.

There are tons of Indian med school applicants. But all types of Asians get the short end of the stick, growing up a minority and having a higher bar set for admissions

 

[Gandyy]

There are tons of Indian med school applicants. But all types of Asians get the short end of the stick, growing up a minority and having a higher bar set for admissions

^^^^

 

[efle]

^^^^

Oh god what have you done bumping this thread

 

[gyngyn]

Why do south asians have it worse than other asian groups? I would think they are the minority in terms of classifying ethnicities. There are definitely more Chinese in American alone than are South Asians.

By far the largest number and percentage of international physicians come from India, though. This far exceeds their proportion of the population, especially when you add in those who identify as Indian Americans who are trained here. 20% of foreign-trained physicians earned their degree in India (about 48,000 in 2007!). Indian Americans can be proud of their contribution, but they are as far as one can get from under-represented.

 

[Gandyy]

Oh god what have you done bumping this thread