Dentistry at Age 70+

[Cold Front]

So I just realized a fair number of dentists (mostly specialists) in my area are in their late 60's and entering their 70's in a year or 2.

I actually went out to lunch with some of these guys, and there is no sign of them slowing down. I guess they don't put their back into their work like they use to, but now mostly do it to stay mentally active or stay social.

I guess the same can also be said about the general population, as there are now more than 40 million people at age 65+ living in this country, and in 15 years that number is projected to be 70 million.

So, in 15 years, if the trend holds for dentists too, I could only imagine that we will have more dentists continuing to practice dentistry beyond age 70, and could leave the age distribution of dentists wide open.

I guess my original point was, if this observation is also seen throughout the country, as I certainly never planned on doing dentistry beyond age 60.

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[Saddleshoes]

There may be a lot more going on here than you realize.

1. Complete Satisfaction: A lot of dentists really do love what they do! It is the reason we are on this earth and retirement would be an empty, disappointment to these folks.
2. Divorce: A lot of dentists in this age group have been divorced one or twice. They lost a ton of money and cannot retire because the x-wife got the nest egg. Then there is the new and YOUNGER wife that requires a lot of money to maintain. This younger wife doesn’t care for the idea of the old folks home one bit and keeps him working for her image.
3. Baby Boomer Life Style: A lot of these guys bought into the “live for today” life style. As a result they spent every dollar as soon as they earned it. Now they find themselves at age 65 and NO SAVINGS. These guys have no choice, they have to work to live a decent life. (BTW lots of these guys are still in debt.)
4. Dentistry Is All Consuming: Some of these guys were the “gunners” in school and in life. They are one dimensional beings. They have never learned to do anything in life but dentistry. If you take dentistry away from these guys they will be totally lost and die.

 

[Daurang]

I can quit right now at 44 but I will no longer be a doctor... I'll just be another retiree in line late nite inside Walmart. Most doctors/dentists are horrific savers/investors which is why they work for so long. Someone push me down the Empire State building if I'm still working past 50.

 

[jeffk805dent]

I can quit right now at 44 but I will no longer be a doctor... I'll just be another retiree in line late nite inside Walmart. Most doctors/dentists are horrific savers/investors which is why they work for so long. Someone push me down the Empire State building if I'm still working past 50.

three questions

1.) do you think reason why doctors/dentists dont have enough money is that their office is in a very saturated area and are basically working twice the effort for half the potential earnings

2.) any books/tips you recommend on how to save for retirement

3.) I'm not counting on the government to keep the retirement funds that I work hard to save, so I might have to work literally till I die. Does yoga and other activities really help with back pain?

 

[Daurang]

three questions

1.) do you think reason why doctors/dentists dont have enough money is that their office is in a very saturated area and are basically working twice the effort for half the potential earnings

2.) any books/tips you recommend on how to save for retirement

3.) I'm not counting on the government to keep the retirement funds that I work hard to save, so I might have to work literally till I die. Does yoga and other activities really help with back pain?

1. Nationally...dental demand is flat, supply of dentists is growing, average income is declining, and dental education cost is skyrocketing. Yes, if you're intent on setting up in a saturated major coastal cities, expect to work twice as hard for half the income.

2. The Millionaire Next Door.

3. I don't have that problem yet.

 

[DrJeff]

three questions

1.) do you think reason why doctors/dentists dont have enough money is that their office is in a very saturated area and are basically working twice the effort for half the potential earnings

2.) any books/tips you recommend on how to save for retirement

3.) I'm not counting on the government to keep the retirement funds that I work hard to save, so I might have to work literally till I die. Does yoga and other activities really help with back pain?

1) Most dentists don't really look very closely at what they are doing with respect to other offices in the area, They just see that they're bringing home $X and if they're happy with that, great, if not they typically go and start spending more $$ on new things (equipment, marketing info, etc) without really taking an objective look at what the return on investment of their current set up is. Most dental practices have an overhead that is likely 5-20% above what it realistically could be if they were running an objective, efficient practice

2) Agree with the Millionaire next door. Also, one of the best bits of financial advice I was given by another dentist while I was in my residency, is to continue living like a resident, rather than a stereotypical "rich" dentist as long as you can

3) Overall physical fitness and stretching play a key roll in not just the ability to practice dentistry for a long time, but also in overall health and well being. Now that I'm in my mid 40's, I have fully come to grips and excepted that in spite of what I thought in my 20's, I'm not "indestructable" and the body does accumulate wear and tear over the years. The better, and more pro-active I am about taking care of myself, the easier it is for me to practice dentistry, and enjoy an active lifestyle in general. Don't take your personal health and fitness for granted!!

 

[jeffk805dent]

1) Most dentists don't really look very closely at what they are doing with respect to other offices in the area, They just see that they're bringing home $X and if they're happy with that, great, if not they typically go and start spending more $$ on new things (equipment, marketing info, etc) without really taking an objective look at what the return on investment of their current set up is. Most dental practices have an overhead that is likely 5-20% above what it realistically could be if they were running an objective, efficient practice

2) Agree with the Millionaire next door. Also, one of the best bits of financial advice I was given by another dentist while I was in my residency, is to continue living like a resident, rather than a stereotypical "rich" dentist as long as you can

3) Overall physical fitness and stretching play a key roll in not just the ability to practice dentistry for a long time, but also in overall health and well being. Now that I'm in my mid 40's, I have fully come to grips and excepted that in spite of what I thought in my 20's, I'm not "indestructable" and the body does accumulate wear and tear over the years. The better, and more pro-active I am about taking care of myself, the easier it is for me to practice dentistry, and enjoy an active lifestyle in general. Don't take your personal health and fitness for granted!!

when we're talking about living like a resident are we talking about dont buy a BMW and big house or are we talking about eating ramen and $1 mcdonalds meals every night. The former is easy to avoid (actually better given the roads in my area would wreck a BMW) but for the latter I dont think I could handle eating cheap food every night, its made me even more miserable in dental school.

 

[DrJeff]

when we're talking about living like a resident are we talking about dont buy a BMW and big house or are we talking about eating ramen and $1 mcdonalds meals every night. The former is easy to avoid (actually better given the roads in my area would wreck a BMW) but for the latter I dont think I could handle eating cheap food every night, its made me even more miserable in dental school.

You don't need to go ramen every night, but you also shouldn't be going filet mignon every night either. Simply put, the more of what you make you use to pay down your debt quicker and then put into your retirement savings, the easier your life will be, from a financial independence status, down the road

 

[jeffk805dent]

You don't need to go ramen every night, but you also shouldn't be going filet mignon every night either. Simply put, the more of what you make you use to pay down your debt quicker and then put into your retirement savings, the easier your life will be, from a financial independence status, down the road

Good to hear, my luxury dinner consists of either In-N-Out or Chipotle, I've found filet mignon to be overhyped anyhow and I dont spend $40 a night on beer either like most of my classmates did.

Suppose I do want to work as a dentist after the age of 70+, do you think customers may be tempted to go to someone else because the body may start putting out or they could have fears that I am performing dental surgery on them when I suddenly die.

 

[Cold Front]

2. The Millionaire Next Door.

Good read. Other good books on my shelf.

1. The Alliance (about managing employees)
2. Against the Gods (understanding risk)
3. The Intelligent Investor (the value of investing)

 

[Cold Front]

1. Nationally...dental demand is flat, supply of dentists is growing, average income is declining, and dental education cost is skyrocketing. Yes, if you're intent on setting up in a saturated major coastal cities, expect to work twice as hard for half the income.

There are some interesting projections about the future demand of healthcare in general in this country.

Some estimates are from American Medical Association - who warned recently that if training and graduation rates don't change, this country will be short 100-150,000 physicians by the year 2025. That's only a decade from now.

As far as dentists, currently - about 40% of dentists are over the age of 55, another 30% are between 45-55. So almost 70% are about to retire or entering their final decade of the profession. At the other end, and according to the ADA, only 3,000 new dentists enter private practice every year, and about half are women - who have different practice patterns than male dentists. In fact, about 60% of all dentists under the age of 45 are women and fill up most associate positions at existing offices, rather than opening solo practices to ease off saturation areas. Therefore creating more demand on existing shortage areas, which is about half of the country.

As far as school debt effecting supply and demand, the average debt almost doubled in a decade and now in the $200k range. More and more new graduates are feeling this burden and staying away from opening solo practices, and find it easier to work for corporate dental chain or existing practices than serving communities with no dentist. This trend will continue to grow as long as tuitions continue to rise, and will create more demand of dentists in both the short and long terms.

Plus there is still a good number of dentists working 3-4 days a week due to lifestyle, and others who prefer to see 5 patients a day than 30 a day. Many limit their practice to cosmetic or high end dentistry, while others only see fee for service procedures and avoid private and public insurance. All these factors are not in line with what majority of patients needs, specially with the ever increasing minorities and migrants (who by the way are the main reason this country will go from 300 million to 400 million in couple of decades) want more affordable dentistry, and will fuel most of the demand in dentistry.

So yes, dentistry demand will grow for the foreseeable future.

 

[Daurang]

The majorities of these new future minorities and migrants are on the lower end of the educational/economic spectrum that depend on medicaid, which pay half usual fee. The rest are on mostly horrible dmo/hmo insurance which pays even less. The typical ppo insurance have reduced their fees plus haven't increase their yearly limits in 50 YEARS! Yes there are few like Daurang and Coldfront that can retire in their 40's/50's but vast majority will likely work into their 60's and 70's. A lot more states are pumping out more dentists and extended function hygienists and midlevel providers and mobile dentistry. In every dental school application cycle, we're led to believe that there would be a mass exodus of dentists leaving the profession and there would be great demand for dental services. Would dental schools tell you anything less? LOL. I'm retiring soon so I have no skin in the game. I hope I'm wrong but I think the golden age of dentistry have passed.

 

[yappy]

The majorities of these new future minorities and migrants are on the lower end of the educational/economic spectrum that depend on medicaid, which pay half usual fee. The rest are on mostly horrible dmo/hmo insurance which pays even less. The typical ppo insurance have reduced their fees plus haven't increase their yearly limits in 50 YEARS! Yes there are few like Daurang and Coldfront that can retire in their 40's/50's but vast majority will likely work into their 60's and 70's. A lot more states are pumping out more dentists and extended function hygienists and midlevel providers and mobile dentistry. In every dental school application cycle, we're led to believe that there would be a mass exodus of dentists leaving the profession and there would be great demand for dental services. Would dental schools tell you anything less? LOL. I'm retiring soon so I have no skin in the game. I hope I'm wrong but I think the golden age of dentistry have passed.

I don't know about the rest of your statement but the first line is false. Immigration is bringing in highly educated people into the US from abroad. Speaking directly towards immigration from Mexico (the kind most people think of when they say immigration) many of their kids are now in university seeking higher education. In short, they're taking advantage of the many opportunities in the US and many are skilled laborers, small business owners, or working towards being professionals.

 

[Cold Front]

The majorities of these new future minorities and migrants are on the lower end of the educational/economic spectrum that depend on medicaid, which pay half usual fee. The rest are on mostly horrible dmo/hmo insurance which pays even less. The typical ppo insurance have reduced their fees plus haven't increase their yearly limits in 50 YEARS! Yes there are few like Daurang and Coldfront that can retire in their 40's/50's but vast majority will likely work into their 60's and 70's. A lot more states are pumping out more dentists and extended function hygienists and midlevel providers and mobile dentistry. In every dental school application cycle, we're led to believe that there would be a mass exodus of dentists leaving the profession and there would be great demand for dental services. Would dental schools tell you anything less? LOL. I'm retiring soon so I have no skin in the game. I hope I'm wrong but I think the golden age of dentistry have passed.

As access becomes more difficult for the bottom demographics, more and more dentists avoid public programs due to rising costs (dental supplies, rent, etc). This will create more pressure to create more expanded dental function or mid-level providers. It's already happening to Medicine, patients are seeing less physicians and more of mid-level providers, particularly in UrgentCares and Hospitals. Nurses are seeing more patients without the presence of physicians, this model is already cost effective and could come to dentistry to fill the shortage gaps as dentistry becomes more preventative than ever before.

The future will be more Medicaid and less PPO, simply because reforms like Obamacare and new state-federal funding guidelines, are forcing employers and the uninsured to get health insurance. Majority of those people don't make enough money to get competitive dental plans and end up joining managed care and Medicaid programs. Also, the definition of poverty line has changed and shifted people to more Medicaid demographic. As baby boomers retire, they lose their plans and become more out pocket patients, further reducing PPO covered population. Majority of children in this country are from low income families, as fertility continues to decline in middle class and above - which only leads to more Medicaid participation for those children and the pregnant mothers in those communities.

It will all come down to economics. It would take large volume offices that benefits from these trends (look at Kool Smiles, Heartland) - not necessarily the ideal offices for a dentist to work at, but from a patient perspective, they provide most value for their dental coverage by going to these clinics who accept insurances private office wouldn't.

 

[jeffk805dent]

As access becomes more difficult for the bottom demographics, more and more dentists avoid public programs due to rising costs (dental supplies, rent, etc). This will create more pressure to create more expanded dental function or mid-level providers. It's already happening to Medicine, patients are seeing less physicians and more of mid-level providers, particularly in UrgentCares and Hospitals. Nurses are seeing more patients without the presence of physicians, this model is already cost effective and could come to dentistry to fill the shortage gaps as dentistry becomes more preventative than ever before.

The future will be more Medicaid and less PPO, simply because reforms like Obamacare and state reforms are forcing employers and the uninsured to get health insurance. Majority of those people don't make enough money to get competitive dental plans and end up joining managed care and Medicaid programs. Also, the definition of poverty line has changed and shifted people to more Medicaid demographic. As baby boomers retire, they lose their plans and become more out pocket patients, further reducing PPO covered population. Majority of children in this country are from low income families, as fertility continues to decline in middle class and above - which only leads to more Medicaid participation for those children and the pregnant mothers in those communities.

It will all come down to economics. It would take large volume offices that benefits from these trends (look at Kool Smiles, Heartland) - not necessarily the ideal offices for a dentist to work at, but from a patient perspective, they provide most value for their dental coverage by going to these clinics who accept insurances private office wouldn't.

interesting analysis. Obviously hard to predict the future but do you see group practices rising as an alternative to work in corporate offices. Do you think there will be more funding towards NHSC and IHS sites to entice dentists work in those areas (some places are constantly looking for dentists, with or without experience).

also by taking Medicaid and less PPO (as seen more and more in Los Angeles) do you think dentists will be working 60+ hours to make 150k in order to prevent a very high overhead.

 

[Cold Front]

interesting analysis. Obviously hard to predict the future but do you see group practices rising as an alternative to work in corporate offices. Do you think there will be more funding towards NHSC and IHS sites to entice dentists work in those areas (some places are constantly looking for dentists, with or without experience).

also by taking Medicaid and less PPO (as seen more and more in Los Angeles) do you think dentists will be working 60+ hours to make 150k in order to prevent a very high overhead.

Many changes are confronting dentistry that will make the status quo unsustainable. From government policies, rising tuition, change in demographics, to simply oral health becoming more and more important in patients minds.

The biggest of all challenges is that most dentists are unaware of these changes and allowing the government, insurance providers, and large dental chains having more control of the future of dentistry.

I'm not sure how accepting Medicaid patients leads to working more hours. Medicaid prividers see more patients, but not necessarily working more hours.

The NHSC and IHS sites will not expand as there are only finite number of applicants for those positions, and may not be enough to replace the attrition of dentists finishing their contracts. I think most graduates are still choosing to work for corporate dental offices in urban areas, than going to remote community health centers.

I agree with Daurang, the golden age of dentistry maybe behind us, but the profession needs dentists to act more and not lose control about the future of dentistry now than ever before.

 

[Ferneezy]

the profession needs dentists to act more and not lose control about the future of dentistry now than ever before.

are you doing anything to contribute to this? what suggestions would you have for young dentists/dentists-to-be who are interested in affecting such change?

 

[Cold Front]

are you doing anything to contribute to this? what suggestions would you have for young dentists/dentists-to-be who are interested in affecting such change?

I'm part of local dental network, and I encourage other dentists to do their part to keep dentistry in the right direction. If this happened in all study clubs and dental conventions around the country, we would have had a better control on the future of dentistry. Unfortunately, I think most dentists have their self-interest keeping them from caring enough about this issue. The same reason why dental chains went from 100 offices to 3,000+ offices in just a decade or so. Dentists could have opened 3,000+ solo practices during the same period (and it would have given young perspective dental students something to be excited about and give them more control about their career), but it was mainly the dentists that directly caused this to happen.

Wait until most dental schools charge $500-700k to train students (which I think will happen in a decade), and wait for those retiring dentists with solo offices be replaced by young (mostly female) new dentists who will work at corporate offices, that will be the tipping point for me.

A perfect example: A dentaltown.com dentist started a successful number of offices from scratch. He sold most of them to a national chain, instead of solo dentists. I'm sure he made a fortune, but helped dental chains grow more.

 

[jeffk805dent]

I agree with Daurang, the golden age of dentistry maybe behind us, but the profession needs dentists to act more and not lose control about the future of dentistry now than ever before.

other than PA and Nurse Practitioner, I think the golden age of ________ is over

golden age of dentistry dead
golden age of engineering dead
golden age of medicine dead
golden age of accounting dead
golden age of finance dead
golden age of law dead

the only scary thing with dentistry is that grads with huge loans cant switch over to another career easily without accounting for loans accruing like crazy.

I'm active with the Northern Arizona dental society but there is only so much I can do. I might die with loans if salaries keep decreasing or if I have a hard time finding a full time job in an area suitable for me and my SO.

 

[yappy]

Recency bias.

 

[Ferneezy]

I'm part of local dental network, and I encourage other dentists to do their part to keep dentistry in the right direction. If this happened in all study clubs and dental conventions around the country, we would have had a better control on the future of dentistry. Unfortunately, I think most dentists have their self-interest keeping them from caring enough about this issue. The same reason why dental chains went from 100 offices to 3,000+ offices in just a decade or so. Dentists could have opened 3,000+ solo practices during the same period (and it would have given young perspective dental students something to be excited about and give them more control about their career), but it was mainly the dentists that directly caused this to happen.

Wait until most dental schools charge $500-700k to train students (which I think will happen in a decade), and wait for those retiring dentists with solo offices be replaced by young (mostly female) new dentists who will work at corporate offices, that will be the tipping point for me.

A perfect example: A dentaltown.com dentist started a successful number of offices from scratch. He sold most of them to a national chain, instead of solo dentists. I'm sure he made a fortune, but helped dental chains grow more.

what you describe above is what i'd like to do once i'm unleashed. i like the idea of building a local or regional 'brand' of practices, identifying and bringing on associates with similar philosophies, and putting them in a position to partner and/or buy me out of that particular satellite practice. hopefully i'd be doing my part to develop young talent and steer them away from race-to-the-bottom, value dentistry.

you referring to leune?

 

[deleted390966]

golden age of dentistry dead
golden age of medicine dead

You're kidding, right?

 

[jeffk805dent]

You're kidding, right?

not really, maybe dentistry might have some advancements that might make it more interesting. However, if you look at the economic uncertainty combined with high loans, the picture for both of these professions looks less brighter than it was in the past. With that said, it could be worse (in comparison to other professions).

 

[deleted390966]

What other professions are you referring to?

 

[jeffk805dent]

What other professions are you referring to?

law, business, pharmacy, to some extent engineering/computer science

 

[deleted390966]

law, business, pharmacy, to some extent engineering

At this point, I'm convinced you have ZERO idea what you're talking about

 

[jeffk805dent]

At this point, I'm convinced you have ZERO idea what you're talking about

care to elaborate (PM me since this thread is going off topic)

 

[deleted390966]

k

 

[jeffk805dent]

You can put any of the above into Google followed by "job prospect".

Pharmacy: Please look at the Pharmacy forum to see the reality of the profession.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3687123/

Law:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/emsi/20...n-the-rise-amid-continuing-glut-of-new-grads/
http://www.businessweek.com/article...e-falls-again-for-recent-law-school-graduates
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/11...ng-law-schools-are-kept-on-life-support/?_r=3

Business: depends a lot on luck, no job security.

Engineering: there's a reason that all my engineer relatives advised their children not to go into engineering. No job security.

Oh darn I think I may have misquoted what I said and misunderstood what you said. What I meant what was that all the above professions above are having a difficult time to finding jobs. I thought you meant pharmacy, law, business, etc were better than dentistry when it clearly isnt.

massive misunderstanding, I was wondering what you meant when I had know idea what I was talking about

 

[DrJeff]

are you doing anything to contribute to this? what suggestions would you have for young dentists/dentists-to-be who are interested in affecting such change?

Step #1 - GET INVOLVED!!! If more dentists actually got out of their offices and spoke with their elected officials (the same folks who are passing the laws and writing the regulations that effect our profession, but have no clue in almost all instances about what it's like to run a dental office), then we could help better shape the changes that are coming

The problem is that far too many of us just don't care, and/or take an active role with those who have the ability to effect us via law making

 

[Cold Front]

you referring to leune?

Yes.

He is a bright guy, and looked out for himself. In the end, when it came to opening successful offices, the big corporate dental chains where just waiting to buy them from him, giving less market share to solo dentists in that part of the country.

I won't be surprised if some of these corporate dental offices merge, and attract more new graduates. It could lead to a new benchmark entry-level to the profession.

 

[Cold Front]

Suppose I do want to work as a dentist after the age of 70+, do you think customers may be tempted to go to someone else because the body may start putting out or they could have fears that I am performing dental surgery on them when I suddenly die.

I think some dentists work longer, like the rest of society, to maximize their social security and other retirement benefits pay offs. For example:

1. Retiring at age 62 vs 63, leads to 7% more in social security pay off.
2. Waiting until age 64... 15-16% more.
3. Waiting until age 70... Close to 70% more.

I'm hoping this is not common reason for older dentists, but if you still enjoy working into your 70's, then it makes a perfect sense to delay your entitlement and other retirement benefits.

Ultimately, it comes down to how long you expect to live as a person (not just as a dentist), how many checks you will expect to replace your dentist income, and what life style you expect your retirement life to be.

Remember, life expectancy is going up (actually went up over 40% from 1960's, and will continue to go up), so you need to save more to retire. Maybe some (or many) dentists can't afford to live 20-30 years from early retirement age of 62. That's a very very long time, a third of a person's life if they live to the age of 85-90, which is common these days. So we young dentists may need to save for 25-35 years under these current retirement models. So deferring retirement benefits is becoming a better deal for today's seniors, because A) they will get more benefits when they actually retire, B) More employment income from the deferred years will support retirement life.

 

[480640]

@Cold Front I read a post a while ago stating that dental corporations were directly promoting increases in tuition so that more graduates preferred to work for them instead of opening their own practices. Do you have any info on this?

 

[jeffk805dent]

I think some dentists work longer, like the rest of society, to maximize their social security and other retirement benefits pay offs. For example:

1. Retiring at age 62 vs 63, leads to 7% more in social security pay off.
2. Waiting until age 64... 15-16% more.
3. Waiting until age 70... Close to 70% more.

I'm hoping this is not common reason for older dentists, but if you still enjoy working into your 70's, then it makes a perfect sense to delay your entitlement and other retirement benefits.

Ultimately, it comes down to how long you expect to live as a person (not just as a dentist), how many checks you will expect to replace your dentist income, and what life style you expect your retirement life to be.

Remember, life expectancy is going up (actually went up over 40% from 1960's, and will continue to go up), so you need to save more to retire. Maybe some (or many) dentists can't afford to live 20-30 years from early retirement age of 62. That's a very very long time, a third of a person's life if they live to the age of 85-90, which is common these days. So we young dentists may need to save for 25-35 years under these current retirement models. So deferring retirement benefits is becoming a better deal for today's seniors, because A) they will get more benefits when they actually retire, B) More employment income from the deferred years will support retirement life.

good post as always Cold Front. I'm aware that Americans are living longer but I'm not sure if they're living healthier. I would hate to live up to 100 but having the last 20 years being retained in a wheelchair. One needs to maintain exercise and good eating habits to being able to be active at a later age.

While my practice is having a whole bunch of problems to deal with, assuming my back is good, I wouldnt mind working for quite a while. I've never understood those people wanting to retire at 50, most people are working, dont they ever get bored since they have a few people to really hang out and play golf all day.

 

[Daurang]

You are a really boring person if you can only find worthiness in life by drilling teeth to pay half your wages to Uncle Sam for the rest of your life. But I respect that..cause my early retirement depends on you working hard. I will be deejaying. I will be volunteering. I will be traveling. I will be sleeping. It's all good.

 

[Cold Front]

good post as always Cold Front. I'm aware that Americans are living longer but I'm not sure if they're living healthier. I would hate to live up to 100 but having the last 20 years being retained in a wheelchair. One needs to maintain exercise and good eating habits to being able to be active at a later age.

While my practice is having a whole bunch of problems to deal with, assuming my back is good, I wouldnt mind working for quite a while. I've never understood those people wanting to retire at 50, most people are working, dont they ever get bored since they have a few people to really hang out and play golf all day.

I agree, retirement can become boring and lonely if you don't make an effort to keep things interesting, specially if you don't have a good social network.

In my city of 1.5M people, the mayor's office here did a 2050 projection for the residents. The study showed 47% of the population will be over of the age 65, up from 27% today. I will be in that group by then, so hopefully a better social network and things to do than today's 65+ group. Who knows, but it's probably going happen with the way fertility rate is going in certain parts of the country.

Again, it's important to have more than just a bucket list when you retire, but also a life full of activities and things to look forward to.

 

[jeffk805dent]

But I respect that..cause my early retirement depends on you working hard.

guess I'll be working part time or teaching academic dentistry then haha.

 

[jeffk805dent]

I agree, retirement can become boring and lonely if you don't make an effort to keep things interesting, specially if you don't have a good social network.

In my city of 1.5M people, the mayor's office here did a 2050 projection for the residents. The study showed 47% of the population will be over of the age 65, up from 27% today. I will be in that group by then, so hopefully a better social network and things to do than today's 65+ group. Who knows, but it's probably going happen with the way fertility rate is going in certain parts of the country.

Again, it's important to have more than just a bucket list when you retire, but also a life full of activities and things to look forward to.

I hope to go back to CA since a lot of my preferred activities/certain hobbies and teams are there, but I'm in Tucson and its kind of boring even if you're not into golf or Arizona Wildcat athletics (I'm not into neither of those). But I'll save up, take a paycut but still work to semi-retire in a higher cost of living area to keep the money flow going.

 

[Cold Front]

@Cold Front I read a post a while ago stating that dental corporations were directly promoting increases in tuition so that more graduates preferred to work for them instead of opening their own practices. Do you have any info on this?

No. Dental schools are directly responsible for tuition increases. They try to increase quality of their programs by spending more every year, not by increasing efficiency or reducing cost or allocating funds. Net result, tuition goes up higher than inflation rate. It's almost like dental schools are competing each other to their perspective students as how cool their programs are, and those candidates come back from interviews and say "I really like that program and see myself there".

 

[fewaopi]

I think some dentists work longer, like the rest of society, to maximize their social security and other retirement benefits pay offs. For example:

1. Retiring at age 62 vs 63, leads to 7% more in social security pay off.
2. Waiting until age 64... 15-16% more.
3. Waiting until age 70... Close to 70% more.

I'm hoping this is not common reason for older dentists, but if you still enjoy working into your 70's, then it makes a perfect sense to delay your entitlement and other retirement benefits.

Ultimately, it comes down to how long you expect to live as a person (not just as a dentist), how many checks you will expect to replace your dentist income, and what life style you expect your retirement life to be.

Remember, life expectancy is going up (actually went up over 40% from 1960's, and will continue to go up), so you need to save more to retire. Maybe some (or many) dentists can't afford to live 20-30 years from early retirement age of 62. That's a very very long time, a third of a person's life if they live to the age of 85-90, which is common these days. So we young dentists may need to save for 25-35 years under these current retirement models. So deferring retirement benefits is becoming a better deal for today's seniors, because A) they will get more benefits when they actually retire, B) More employment income from the deferred years will support retirement life.

wondering if it would be better to take SS early and instead of deferring for more retirement benefit invest it in low cost stock/bond index fund. would it be better than deferring retirement income after 10 years?

 

[Mad Jack]

No. Dental schools are directly responsible for tuition increases. They increase their tuition to make more money.

ftfy

 

[Cold Front]

wondering if it would be better to take SS early and instead of deferring for more retirement benefit invest it in low cost stock/bond index fund. would it be better than deferring retirement income after 10 years?

If you don't defer, and say you get $1,000 SS benefit a month at age 62. The government will tax that amount and deduct Medicare, so you really end up with maybe $700 a month. You can only invest that $700 in stocks or bonds.

If you do defer the $1,000 until age 70, it would lead to $1,700 or more in monthly SS benefit, the choice becomes easier and SS becomes the better option. The deferment actually involves Treasury bonds, and it's pretty much benefit defined payoff before deferment, where stocks/bonds are not, because they are market driven and have additional costs as an overall investment, plus lower ROI than the SS deferment program.

 

[Cold Front]

good post as always Cold Front. I'm aware that Americans are living longer but I'm not sure if they're living healthier. I would hate to live up to 100 but having the last 20 years being retained in a wheelchair. One needs to maintain exercise and good eating habits to being able to be active at a later age.

While my practice is having a whole bunch of problems to deal with, assuming my back is good, I wouldnt mind working for quite a while. I've never understood those people wanting to retire at 50, most people are working, dont they ever get bored since they have a few people to really hang out and play golf all day.

In my state, seniors will lose/can't renew their drivers license at age 75. It's the law. So I doubt many dentists will work beyond age 75 due to society related restrictions, including patients pondering if you should still be doing dentistry at that age.

Malpractice insurance must also be very high. So I doubt I would work beyond age 65-70, it would cost more to work at that point, as a clinician.