Dentistry salary

[Squishytooth]

It all depends on how much work you want to put in and how good you are with patients and your business sense. If you are good, you will make money. If you aren't, then you won't make as much. Pretty simple. The other thing is income isn't the only factor of economic success. You may have a large income, but if you don't know how to work the tax system and have substantial debt, will you be as financially sound?. As it's been said time and time again, make sure you actually like dentistry. Shadowing a lot is important. It's one thing to lie on the app saying you shadowed 300 hours when really you only did 5 and think you have seen enough. It's another to actually do it and learn if you really like it.

This is a really good point. I learn't some of my most important skills (for both dentistry and earning!) from observing successful dentists.

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[Silent Cool]

It's interesting that Dentists in rural areas seem to make more money. Just due to less competition and lover overhead costs I'm assuming?

Both.

 

[Silent Cool]

Hello,
I would like all the dentists here to be honest with me because I am making a big decision. I have my Master's degree in electrical engineering and I would like to start my education in dental school. I talked to the advisors and for that I need to study at least 2 years in a college or university before getting dental school admission. My question is that do you think it will worth according to the dentists' salary? I appreciate it if any body can give me an actual number for the salary so that I can compare it to my salary as an engineer.

Thanks.

Hey OP,

Silent Cool here chiming in.

The average practice owner makes ~200K according to the ADA. That's for about 36 hours per week. Imagine the possibilities!
Just keep your doors open from 7am to 7pm M-F, and 10am-5pm Saturday, and you're set. You will be rollin' in it. The sky is the limit. The possibilities are endless. Dentistry knows no boundaries, dude. It's only you, your handpiece, your ambition and a few dozen hygenists that determine your success.

The world is your oyster in this profession (if you want it to be). Don't listen to the chumps who tell you that it can't be done. So many dentists are grossing 1 mil, even 1.5 mil. The problem is that the low-producers stuck at the sub-600K range don't think big enough. They have no vision. Don't let anyone put a cap on your production. Your ambition will set you free. That's just the kind of limitless success you will find in dentistry--one that engineering will never provide--if you think big enough.

I say do it.

Good luck.

 

[Shunwei]

The best way to earn a high income in dentistry isn't actually by salary. I've been working as a dentist for a little over 12 months and I have successfully increased my percentage from 25 to now 40% (via a job change and negotiations) which is the industry average here. My monthly gross varies between 60-80k so my take home income monthly (before tax) averages approx 25-30k. I was only able to increase my % based income to 40% because of my performance.

Few general dentists earn this kind of income because of:
1) Fixed salaries (no matter how much work you do you earn the same amount)
2) Lack of patients (too few patients = less dollars if you are on a %)
3) Lack of productivity (not effectively maximising earning potential)
4) Fussy about type of work/ work conditions - which limits your potential income
5) Low percentage agreement contract - with an employer unwilling to renegotiate

40% is awfully high for what sounds like an associate position. If true that might be an extreme outlier of a percentage. If I were an owner I wouldn't pay my associate that kind of money. That'd leave me at no more than about 15% as the owner for my troubles.

 

[bigstix808]

Dentist pay is highly variable. It is not really a salaried job. Dentists are often paid based on their production. Hence why first year pay could be from <100k to more than 150k. The big money in dentistry usually comes with ownership of a practice. However the process to ownership can vary after school and is often dependent on school debt.

Not sure i you will need to take out loans for dental school, but if you do I highly recommend going to the cheapest school you could go to. Limiting debt out of school will put you on a better track towards higher pay in the future.

dead on!

 

[Squishytooth]

40% is awfully high for what sounds like an associate position. If true that might be an extreme outlier of a percentage. If I were an owner I wouldn't pay my associate that kind of money. That'd leave me at no more than about 15% as the owner for my troubles.

It must be different where you are practicing. I could show you a photocopy of my contract to prove it. Our practice operates with 30% profit margin on average month to month. We are exceptionally busy and very well run. It's a great job.

 

[Squishytooth]

40% is awfully high for what sounds like an associate position. If true that might be an extreme outlier of a percentage. If I were an owner I wouldn't pay my associate that kind of money. That'd leave me at no more than about 15% as the owner for my troubles.

The philosophy of our owner (corporate) is that if our dentists are properly incentivised to earn more they will make more money for the company.

 

[Shunwei]

It must be different where you are practicing. I could show you a photocopy of my contract to prove it. Our practice operates with 30% profit margin on average month to month. We are exceptionally busy and very well run. It's a great job.

Lol no I am not that into your personal business. But if you don't mind I am curious who this corp that you are working for,

 

[Squishytooth]

haha ok. 1300Smiles. Australian Corporate pubically listed on ASX. Great company.

 

[Shunwei]

haha ok. 1300Smiles. Australian Corporate pubically listed on ASX. Great company.

Well Australian dentistry is beyond my knowledge and the scope of this discussion. I doubt if you can find a U.S. Dental corp willing to pay you 40% on production or any dental office for that matter. Just curious how much does the average 1300smile dentist produce a day, in U.S. Currency?

 

[Squishytooth]

2-3000 USD. I average 4000 USD with my best days north of 7ooo USD. All depends. My area is lower socioeconomic though.

There are some dentists I know in north QLD who are making much more. They average 9000USD because they both work 2 chairs with heaps of patients and there is no other dentist in the town.

 

[OhioDMD]

2-3000 USD. I average 4000 USD with my best days north of 7ooo USD. All depends. My area is lower socioeconomic though.

There are some dentists I know in north QLD who are making much more. They average 9000USD because they both work 2 chairs with heaps of patients and there is no other dentist in the town.

Simple supply and demand along with the desire to drill or yank your tail off.

 

[Shunwei]

Simple supply and demand along with the desire to drill or yank your tail off.

supply and demand to me is always the most important factor. when you are the only or one of the few shows in town people have no choice but to come to you.

 

[BanyanDental.com]

This is applicable to Florida. Some of what I have read here is way off from what applies here. Upon graduation, if you practice in Florida and choose work for one of the big companies they will pay you a starting salary of $600/day or about 30% of your collections (minus 1/2 lab bill). So you would need to generate about $2000/day which is fairly easy, even at a miserable low end HMO based corporate office. Then there is the very smart and charismatic, low overhead dentists that owns his own practice, and built it cheap (the guy who cut all the corners in dental school and finished his requirements 6 months early). These guys can make up to about a $900K income. Then there are the head in the cloud arrogant guys that borrow an enormous about of money, drive there overhead out the roof and barely make $150K yr. This is the guy who followed all the rules and barely got his requirements done in time to graduate, but he still thinks he is great. He will end up teaching someday and talk about how its impossible to make money in dentistry.

How much you will make here depends on your abilities and personality more than anything else. If you are an aggressive, innovative, and nice type, it can be a very rewarding profession.

 

[BanyanDental.com]

My main concern at this point would be to decide how to manage my finance. I am choosing between military scholarships vs. federal loans. I would like to get an input of practicing dentists/residents as well.


1. What do you think would be the fastest way for me to become stable in this field, financially? I want to ultimately open my practice later in my career. Also, if you could refer me to the forum that walks me through the process of opening a practice, I would appreciate it.

(Here is the case: I won’t have the money to pay for my tuition. So, it’s going to be either getting federal loan for my tuition + pay for debt as I work in other dentist’s office + open my practice later on (vs.) get military scholarship start zero for dental tuition + serving in the military pay for my undergraduate loan + after 4 years serving open my practice with financial loan)

Do not go the military route. You will never come out ahead doing this. Just take out the loan and go to a decent affordable school. It will work out just fine. When you get out, first work for one of the corporate dumps to learn how things are done in real life. Then look everywhere to find an under producing office that you can improve on. You don't buy the beautiful office that is booming and try to maintain it, you buy the under producing office with a lot of potential that is cheap. Don't build your first practice, buy it. Once you can afford it you can play around with building offices without worrying about failure.

2. Best option for me would be to compare financial costs of these two pathways. Since you would not be able to provide much input on military scholarship, would you be able to share how much (in estimate) it would cost for me to open a dental practice (in detail if possible)?

That is a rough question. For an amazingly beautiful 2000 sq/ft 6 operatory office with all the tricks, put together by a big dental suppier $450K. A very clean 2000sq/ft office built with the cheapest contractor etc. that you can find, equipped with remanufactured equipment, in a new plaza that is mostly vacant (owner will be motivated to give a big build out allowance) can be done for under $100K. Patients can't tell the difference between the 2 offices.



3. Before I open my practice, if I am to work under other dentists, what would be my starting salary and do they raise my salary after certain period?

$600/day to start or 30% of your collections minus 1/2 lab bill. You just get faster and better, that's the only raise.

4. Also, can any of practicing dentists give me advices on how to establish a successful dental practice by myself?

Its just like any other business. Low overhead, location, and customer service. Just like McDonald's

5. Basic steps of opening a dental practice?

Too complicated to answer. Work somewhere first and then learn.

6. Cautions that I need to keep in my mind, for each of step you provided in #3?

Don't trust the face of the big companies. They are not nice places. They are like a boot-camp for dentist. Don't sign a long contract. What if you find your dream practice 6 months into your 2 year contract working in a dump? They will not let you leave.


I wanted to take a time and realistically ask questions regarding financial issues for me, since I will be starting low with all these debts. I would like to thank you guys, in advance, for caring BanyanDental.com comments that you put out.

 

[Squishytooth]

This is applicable to Florida. Some of what I have read here is way off from what applies here. Upon graduation, if you practice in Florida and choose work for one of the big companies they will pay you a starting salary of $600/day or about 30% of your collections (minus 1/2 lab bill). So you would need to generate about $2000/day which is fairly easy, even at a miserable low end HMO based corporate office. Then there is the very smart and charismatic, low overhead dentists that owns his own practice, and built it cheap (the guy who cut all the corners in dental school and finished his requirements 6 months early). These guys can make up to about a $900K income. Then there are the head in the cloud arrogant guys that borrow an enormous about of money, drive there overhead out the roof and barely make $150K yr. This is the guy who followed all the rules and barely got his requirements done in time to graduate, but he still thinks he is great. He will end up teaching someday and talk about how its impossible to make money in dentistry.

How much you will make here depends on your abilities and personality more than anything else. If you are an aggressive, innovative, and nice type, it can be a very rewarding profession.

I agree wholeheartedly about the "types" of dentists you refer to here. Although; I know some very clever dentists taking advantage of the Holistic Dentistry subindustry - setup is higher but they charge premium fees for everything they do.

 

[Ferneezy]

Then there is the very smart and charismatic, low overhead dentists that owns his own practice, and built it cheap (the guy who cut all the corners in dental school and finished his requirements 6 months early). These guys can make up to about a $900K income. Then there are the head in the cloud arrogant guys that borrow an enormous about of money, drive there overhead out the roof and barely make $150K yr. This is the guy who followed all the rules and barely got his requirements done in time to graduate, but he still thinks he is great. He will end up teaching someday and talk about how its impossible to make money in dentistry.

please help me understand what you mean by the bolded. what corners can be cut to 'finish' early? and i was under the impression that dschool was like bootcamp/prison sentence where you keep your head down (ie follow all their rules), slog through your work, and get rewarded with the freedom to do real-world dentistry at the end.

 

[DBarrett]

Hey OP,

Silent Cool here chiming in.

The average practice owner makes ~200K according to the ADA. That's for about 36 hours per week. Imagine the possibilities!
Just keep your doors open from 7am to 7pm M-F, and 10am-5pm Saturday, and you're set. You will be rollin' in it. The sky is the limit. The possibilities are endless. Dentistry knows no boundaries, dude. It's only you, your handpiece, your ambition and a few dozen hygenists that determine your success.

The world is your oyster in this profession (if you want it to be). Don't listen to the chumps who tell you that it can't be done. So many dentists are grossing 1 mil, even 1.5 mil. The problem is that the low-producers stuck at the sub-600K range don't think big enough. They have no vision. Don't let anyone put a cap on your production. Your ambition will set you free. That's just the kind of limitless success you will find in dentistry--one that engineering will never provide--if you think big enough.

I say do it.

Good luck.

I agree. There's pessimism in EVERY field...No matter where you go, you'll find people who try to tell you their field is the worst.

When I first started getting in to real estate, I had a family member in the RE field tell me it was a terrible decision, there was no money to be made, etc. I let it deter me for a while, and I watched friends of mine in RE rake in ridiculous amounts of money even during the height of the economic downturn/crash.

I also had a friend who owns a relatively small law office try to tell me that the legal field was garbage(you'll see this a lot on law forums as well). He was literally telling me how bad the field was as he was showing me the $70,000 slate roof he just had put on his $1.5 million dollar house. He's still in his 30s, by the way...haha. Ridiculous.


As mentioned, the sky is the limit, especially when you're in a field that allows you to run your own business. Your success is based on how hard you work, how much effort you put in to marketing, networking, etc. You won't be working 30 hours per week early on if you want to build a very successful business, but it will be worth it. If you want to just put in 40/hours a week and go home, don't expect to make the big bucks...At least initially. You'll be able to do that once you have a large, successful practice in place.


ALSO: I think that the majority of people in professional fields don't really know what HARD work is. For the most part, people in the professional fields graduate high school, go straight to college, and then go straight to Dental/Med/Law school after that...Very little legitimate real world experience. Sure, studying/school is tough, but I'm referring to hard, manual labor. Even if you're working the lowest paying dentist job out there making 90-120k/year working 40 hours a week, you're doing great. Try being a roofer for sub-$20/hour and then come back on here and tell me how crappy Dentistry is.

 

[Moose26]

Dentists' incomes are just so variable. I work at a private practice as an associate and made 250k this year. Oh, I'm 29 too. I will become a partner this year and the profits should add another 150-200k. Now this is a very profitable and well run office. However, its not a practice where we push unnecessary treatment, work 6 days a week, or advertise like crazy. I'm sure there are practitioners that earn 900k/year, and ones that earn 150k/year. It depends on the individual.

 

[AAY]

I agree. There's pessimism in EVERY field...No matter where you go, you'll find people who try to tell you their field is the worst.

When I first started getting in to real estate, I had a family member in the RE field tell me it was a terrible decision, there was no money to be made, etc. I let it deter me for a while, and I watched friends of mine in RE rake in ridiculous amounts of money even during the height of the economic downturn/crash.

I also had a friend who owns a relatively small law office try to tell me that the legal field was garbage(you'll see this a lot on law forums as well). He was literally telling me how bad the field was as he was showing me the $70,000 slate roof he just had put on his $1.5 million dollar house. He's still in his 30s, by the way...haha. Ridiculous.


As mentioned, the sky is the limit, especially when you're in a field that allows you to run your own business. Your success is based on how hard you work, how much effort you put in to marketing, networking, etc. You won't be working 30 hours per week early on if you want to build a very successful business, but it will be worth it. If you want to just put in 40/hours a week and go home, don't expect to make the big bucks...At least initially. You'll be able to do that once you have a large, successful practice in place.


ALSO: I think that the majority of people in professional fields don't really know what HARD work is. For the most part, people in the professional fields graduate high school, go straight to college, and then go straight to Dental/Med/Law school after that...Very little legitimate real world experience. Sure, studying/school is tough, but I'm referring to hard, manual labor. Even if you're working the lowest paying dentist job out there making 90-120k/year working 40 hours a week, you're doing great. Try being a roofer for sub-$20/hour and then come back on here and tell me how crappy Dentistry is.

This is perfect. I am actually an airline captain that reads these boards for education because my wife is in Dental school. All of what is written applies to the airline pilot field as well. Even the second paragraph. I constantly hear "this place sucks, horrible career……I just bought this porsche and I worked 12 days last month." I worked as a mason, rough framer, and in retail before flying and I can promise you many people have no concept at all of what real work is.

 

[DBarrett]

This is perfect. I am actually an airline captain that reads these boards for education because my wife is in Dental school. All of what is written applies to the airline pilot field as well. Even the second paragraph. I constantly hear "this place sucks, horrible career……I just bought this porsche and I worked 12 days last month." I worked as a mason, rough framer, and in retail before flying and I can promise you many people have no concept at all of what real work is.

I'm a private pilot... Aviation-related forums are the epitome of pessimism, lol. All those guys do is complain about how every commercial pilot in existence apparently flies regional for $4/hour.

 

[mrwesson]

Doing something you don't like for money will net you enough money to buy a bullet and rent a gun.

That being said 135k seems about the norm for a dental grad without a AEGD and about 15% more with one.

 

[DocJL]

MOVING THIS FROM WRONG THREAD.


Silent Cool said: ↑
DocJL,
What would you say most private practice generalists are taking home?
Also, there is a thread on dentaltown right now about owing ~500K for dental school:

http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspxs=2&f=2656&t=230828&pg=1

Also, I would say that just about all private schools these days will take students to 450K-500K of debt.

Is it worth it?

Silent,

There is much info on dentist incomes on the internet, much of it nothing but guesswork, and even the various salary websites which represent themselves as authorities are all over the map.

The best info I have seen is the ADA surveys of dentist income. They send out surveys to their members every few years, and then place the info into several reports, general dentists and specialists, various specialties, practice owner vs. employee, part time vs full time et cetera.

Here is a link to the 2010 report, based on 2009 survey.
I would think current income levels would not be much changed, as the economy has just plodded along, and any improvement would be offset by MORE DENTISTS, as older dentists NOT retiring as their portfolios took a beating, and MORE graduates every year.

When you read through the data, understand that MEAN is much more representative than AVERAGE, and a practice owner would make much more than an associate, obviously. I think this is represented in the data that breaks down income by provider AGE, as most younger dentists are not yet owners.

While we do fairly well, the astronomical debt loads I am seeing which approach 500k are a concern.

It basically means that a new graduate with that kind of debt would have to make some lifestyle sacrifices, especially in terms of where they live and work. IMO the ONLY way to put a dent in that type of educational debt would be to go to an underserved area, which by definition would be a less desireable place to live for most. I look at it this way. Even living in a podunk small town where you are bored to death is not that much different than being in the military where you are subject to being sent to live in a podunk small town outside a military base in the middle of nowhere. The difference is you won't be owned by the military, and will be able to make 3-4 times what Uncle Sam pays. That said, the 4-year full rides are a great deal, unless you are really not cut out for the military. Not everyone is.

While I think it is worth it still, and I will support my kids if they decide to become dentists (they are also considering medicine, but my friends who are MD's seem to think I have it better, lol, the grass is always greener). However, I would probably tell them to specialize. Over the course of a career most specialists will make anywhere from 1 to 4 million or more than the average general dentist. There is a reason most of the kids in my class who's dad's were dentists, went into specialties. I'm sure their father's told them they didn't want to spend their lives working as hard as them, lol, (even those without top grades did 1 year externships or GPR's or AEGD's and then again applied to specialty training, and this got them in. I understand why now. General dentistry is HARD work. (not that specialty work isn't, but it pays better). Look at it this way. All day long I do procedures that generate between $100 and $800 on average. A specialist (perio doing osseious surgery or implants or os doing 3rd or implants) will spend much of their day doing procedures from $800 to $3000 or more.

Hope this helps:

http://www.ada.org/~/media/ADA/Science and Research/HPI/Files/10_sdpi.ashx
III. Income from the Private Practice of Dentistry
A. Independent Dentists
An independent dentist is a sole proprietor or partner who owns or shares in the ownership of an incorporated or
unincorporated dental practice. Sole proprietors or partners in incorporated practices are also referred to as
shareholders. Independent dentists accounted for 85.4% of all dentists in private practice as either a primary or
secondary occupation. Among dentists in private practice as a primary occupation, 86.1% were independent
dentists.
A 1. Net Income by Type of Dentist
As shown in Table 2, the average net income from the primary private practice for all independent dentists in 2009
was $212,830. Average net income decreased 7.8% from $230,920 in 2008. Primary practice earnings were
98.2% of total dental income.
Independent general practitioners’ average net income decreased by 7.0% from $207,210 in 2008 to $192,680 in
2009. Primary practice
earnings were 98.5% of independent general
practitioners’ total net income from dentistry.
Independent specialists’ average net income decreased by 10.6% from $342,270 in 2008 to $305,820 in 2009.
Independent specialists earned 97.1% of their total dental income from their primary private practice.
Table 2: Net Income from the Primary Private Practice of Independent Dentists, 2009

General Practitioners
Unincorporated $172,870 $ 98,000 $156,450 $225,000 $ 99,970 331
Incorporated 207,650 124,000 186,000 255,000 118,160 438
All Independent 192,680 110,000 175,000 247,000 112,030 769
Specialists (Weighted)
Unincorporated 284,530 145,000 250,000 400,000 192,210 418
Incorporated 313,040 170,000 260,000 400,000 205,980 1,170
All Independent 305,820 160,000 251,000 400,000 202,960 1,588
All Independent (Weighted)
Unincorporated 185,510 100,000 165,340 230,600 119,560 749
Incorporated 230,970 130,000 200,000 290,000 148,910 1,608
All Independent 212,830 115,000 186,000 270,000 139,740 2,357
Source: American Dental Association, Survey Center, 2010
Survey of Dental Practice
.
All
new independent dentists
(who graduated from dental school in the last ten years) had an average net income
from their primary private practice of $186,140 in 2009. New independent dentists averaged $187,990 in
incorporated practices. The number of new independent dentists in unincorporated practices was too low to allow
reliable statistical analysis.
New independent general practitioners earned $178,550 in 2009. The average net income for new independent
general practitioners in incorporated practices was $180,530. The number of new independent general
practitioners in unincorporated practices was too low to allow reliable statistical analysis.
New independent specialists had an average net income of $243,370. The average net income for new
independent specialists in incorporated practices was $238,36

 

[DocJL]

THIS TOO:



Doc,

Thanks for your detailed post. I've seen the numbers before, but I was curious what your personal experience is as it relates to averages, etc..

Also, it seems that a new grad these days will have 500K of student loans and 500K of practice loans. How long do you think it will to pay that back? Also, would you pay for specialist training?
Silent Cool, Yesterday at 6:01 PM Report
#79 Like + Quote Reply

DocJL
Joined:
Jan 7, 2011
Messages:
196
Status:
Dentist

So many factors at play here, as far as what is wise in terms of how much debt is worth what level of training.

Really too detailed to go down even a few different scenarios.

Are you in Dental school? What is your specific situation. PM me if you'd like to keep it in confidence.


As far as my personal experiences and knowledge on dental salaries for GP's, I will give some rough numbers I believe to be the norm. These are (again, IMO) salary ranges, NOT office production ranges.

New grads: 100-140k (obviously military much less, and those going to work for their dad's office possibly more, etc.) This is also greatly dependent on location. Coastal north and southern California will be busting their ass at a corporate mill, pulling their hair out in frustration as they have 3 columns scheduled for them, with all production being at the lowest end of the fee scale, as there are simply too many DDS's in Cali, and corporate dentistry has so much control over the market. This IS good money for someone right out of school with no experience, but you WILL be working harder than most people ever have in their lives.

Experienced associate: 150-250k Someone with say 3-4 years of experience, either at a mill, or in the military, or even someone with 20+ years of experience, possibly retired military, who gets a job at a decent group or private practice. The top end of this scale would be reserved for either very experienced associates (its not that uncommon for someone to spend much if not all of their career never being an owner) and/or those with at least a few years experience (it takes several years to develop your skills and speed in dentistry), who are better providers, and who the owner can afford to pay that well, and still make a profit (again, part of being an associate is understanding that the owner WILL NEED to make a profit from your production, otherwise they have no need for you). If in a shortage area, AND the associate is skilled and experienced, possible to make as much as 300k plus. These jobs are few and far between, and honestly, any dentist who is skilled/experienced enough to be worth getting that pay rate as an associate, would be able to make more if they owned their own practice.

Practice owner: 100k-600k plus Huge range here. A new start up practice the doctor might bring home very little the first couple of years, highly dependant on where they start up. An average, experienced practice owner in an average location (not too saturated, but not one of the high demand areas where nobody wants to practice) would probably be in the 200-300k average. This is borne out by the ADA statistics. But never forget that a practice owner must also use some of that income to service debt, whether it be from a start up or purchase of an existing practice. And only the interest on those business loans is deductible. The higher range would be usually for experienced docs with good people and business skills, with a busy practice. There are many models where this level of income is possible. From the smaller office which does a very good job controlling overhead, to the large office with associate dentists, many employees, and high overhead, but large production. Many ways to skin the cat. But none of them are easy, and will require you to learn business and people skills that are not taught in college or dental school. There are some general dentists who make much more than I put on my range, but they, IMO, are so few and far between that I didn't want to skew what I considered to be a more realistic range.


Other practicing docs I welcome your opinion on my opinion, lol.​