Denturists and American People in Need vs. American Dental Association Policies

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denturist

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Denturists and American People in Need vs. American Dental Association Policies

The balance of the working relationship between the dentist and denture technician has always tipped more favorably on the side of the dentist than the denture technician.

A number of denture technicians moved forward in the profession by becoming denturist because of the expectations of being the dentist's counter-part but rarely with the denture technician receiving the deserved gratitude of those expectations.

Instead we worked long hours (not by choice), didn't get paid for those long hours which usually involved remakes due to error of the dentist or assistant doing procedures.

Our jobs as denture technicians were usually held over our heads for us to jump, reach, and grab at, while the dentist decided which dental lab they would use if and when we complained or insisted that things be done differently and maybe even getting paid for the 60 or 90 day past due lab invoice.

As a denturist I enjoy my work. I enjoy the working relationship of a chosen dentist or oral surgeon for referral services for my patients.

The good fight is not with any current or past dentist. I’ve worked with some good dentist as a denture lab technician and as a denturist. A good majority of the dentist would rather spend their chairtime in restorative and cosmetic dentistry not dentures.

So what's the problem? Corporate ADA. The American Dental Association’s big money politics, waste and not being able to relate to the dental needs of the people. It’s nothing different than what denture technicians and denturist have always dealt with as the counter-part of the dental profession.

Corporate ADA has no faith in its ability to provide for the dental needs of the American public. Even as denture technicians, we have always known we we're better at being able to meet the denture needs of the American public and the American Dental Association knows it. We are a thorn in ADA’s side and they want us gone.

The American Dental Association has in place, a number of build up and award programs for dental lab technicians for good reason and then it supports outsourcing of dental prostheses. Something’s not right with this picture.

It’s one thing to pay pennies to the dental lab technician for dental prostheses but yet another thing to outsource the work away from the mom and pop dental labs across America.

More and more people are doing without dental care because of ADA's policy making. They spend 10's of thousands of dollars for meetings to establish these policies that are leaving more and more people without dental care.

The policies discriminating against the economically disadvantaged Americans are those that are directed at stopping denturist, dental health aides and independent practices for dental hygienist. The American Dental Association sends money to state dental associations with expectation that the state associations will uphold ADA's policies but in turn it's a negative reflection on the state associations because their using the money for reasons other than meeting the dental needs of the people of the state.

The American Dental Association could better serve the dental needs of the American people by giving the dental hygienists the freedom of their own boards and independent practices so they can better serve the preventive needs of the American people by serving in the area of public health.

Corporate ADA can take the necessary steps to establish boards for independent practice of the denturist profession and the dental health aides across the Nation. This would free up dentist to use their eight or more years of schooling and experience in extensive restorative dentistry and specialty areas of dentistry.

It would direct the need for more money for education for all areas of the dental profession. This would create more qualified doctors and less of the unethically inclined dentists that are in practice today due to dental school programs one size fit all level of the DDS degree.

Dental health aides or therapist would serve the same level that a physician’s assistant serves today. The American Dental Association would organize and regulate dentistry and associated professions across America to better meet the dental care needs of all people.

People need to get on the American Dental Association internet site and do a watch dog of the programs in place and see the money that’s wasted. It’s disgraceful, with the number of Americans doing without dental care. You’d think with all the money, power, and intellect the American Dental Association has it would do things differently.

Please consider this critique of corporate ADA.

Thank you---Gary W. Vollan L.D.
www.wysda.org 307-568-2047
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I could post a well thought out response but hey, you're never going to read it right? You just registered an account to spam some propaganda? OK, happy NYE!
 
like i said on the other post, i don't mind denturist working with a dentist in their office like the a dental hygienist does as long as you don't go out and work independently. You also have to fight the prosthodontists, this is their expertise. I read about this profession and some of the expanded practices are what the dental assistants usually do. Some of them enjoyed working with dentures as far as impressions and trimming. i think this really has more to do with money than what the public is thinking about who putting in their dentures.
 
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Oh come on armorshell, no I'm not happy. I'm not practicing! I've been doing dentures for my community and the surrrounding area since 1992 and was very happy. In fact I was headed down to a town about 30 miles to the south to open a office a couple days a week and the dental board shut me down. It's just a turf issue.

You bet I'll read what you have to say. It's important. Yes, I'm out to educate people. I need to get back to work providing denture care as a denturist. People are still doing without dentures. It's not like I was closed down and they rushed to their local dentist.

thanks for being here---gary
 
FutureDMD1234, thanks for responding. No it doesn't work for denturist to work with dentist as a hygienist does. The denturist is all about affordable denture care. This means accessability to same day relines and repairs and adjustments. If we work out of a dental office we have more overhead. Unless your working in an "ad office" and no thank you. I need time with the patient and denture.

I'm not in competition with the prosthodontis. Most of the patients that I do dentures for have to work, save and do without for the $545 that I charge for a denture. That's using a good tooth and base material. Some times I set up a payment system for that fee.

Most of my people wouldn't be able to afford to step inside a prosthodontist office and there will always be the patient that needs to see the doctor before the last name before they'd step into an office. No one counts unless they have a Dr. before their name.

I don't think prosthodontist are worried about the denturist. Their practice includes much more than dentures as you well know.

Your right DMD, most of the procedures are done by the assistant. The exam is done by the dentist. Denturist are educated in recognizing healthy tissue. If a denturist sees tissue that doesn't look healthy they refer the patient out to the dentist or oral sugeon.

I do a facebow. If it's done in a dental office I think it's a toss up with either dentist or their assistant doing it. I do a good denture. I don't charge for consultations or adjustments and this is usually the rule for the profession. Thanks for being here Future DMD---gary
 
denturist said:
Oh come on armorshell, no I'm not happy. I'm not practicing! I've been doing dentures for my community and the surrrounding area since 1992 and was very happy. In fact I was headed down to a town about 30 miles to the south to open a office a couple days a week and the dental board shut me down. It's just a turf issue.

You bet I'll read what you have to say. It's important. Yes, I'm out to educate people. I need to get back to work providing denture care as a denturist. People are still doing without dentures. It's not like I was closed down and they rushed to their local dentist.

thanks for being here---gary
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Denturist, you are doing a good service to some people out there, whether we like it or not.
Having said that, and I apologize in advance for being blunt, but "Denturism" as I see it is merely taking advantage of this transient vacuum in access to care, and is not a standard of patient care. The mere existence of this phenomenon is dangerous to the whole dental profession, and signals sharp inefficiencies within our own organization (ADA). In my eyes, Denturists are in no way qualified to diagnose and/or prescribe treatment for oral disease. I have no problem with you working under the direct supervision of a qualified and licensed dental practitioner, as an in-house lab technician would.
Referring to Denturists as "Denture Specialists" or "Dental Prosthetists", as your associations choose to do, is very misleading to the public.
 
Gosh darn NileBDS, denturist do not, I repeat do not diagnose or prescribe treatment in any way. The fact that we're on the front lines seeing the edentoulous that haven't been to a dental office for years (10 or more) it gives us the opportunity to recognize abnormal conditions of the patient by doing a health questionnair and oral exam and in return offer one of the services we're taught as denturist and that's the referral service to the dentist, oral surgeon and/or physician.

They walk out of our office with a no charge consultation/exam into your office to have the condition treated or referred out to a specialist and if your office staff has done a good ethical job with treatment and/or referral then you get their dentulous family for treatment and I get my edentulous patient back for denture service.

It doesn't work if the denturist is in a dental office. We can't keep the prices down low enough and services at the level they need to be as far as accessibility. I have people call me after hours and on Christmas day due to broken dentures. If I'm available I like to provide my service to them so they're able to function. Thanks for being here NileBDS and may the Lord bless you with a prosperous New Year---gary
 
I just have to say that this is more than an access issue. The reason I became a Denturist is because I was working in the most affluent state in the country, and had more knowledge of materials, impression technique, and bite registration than any of my ultra wealthy, supposedly top-notch Prosthodontist clients. I ran a high end lab, in which I attempted to cater to high-end dentures, you know, characterized bases, accudent impressions, gothic arch tracings, ivoclar and candulor teeth, fully balanced cases, and precision partials. I was taught by a Swissident graduate who studied directly under Dr. Frush. This experienced told me a few things. 1) my Dentist clients would never be as skilled as I was at natural tooth arrangement. 2) Because of my technical experience, and acquired dexterity, I took much better impressions and bite registrations. (Of course how many Dentists take facebow and arch tracing to begin with?)
Now, I am not saying that this is the Dentists' fault. It is simply true that a skilled technician will excel as a Denturist. He will, and does in fact make a better fitting denture, a better looking denture, and a better functioning denture. That is why the public supports us. While on the other side of the spectrum the Dentists' education has been getting cut for the past 10 years in regards to dentures. If a Prosthodontist makes a complete failure of a case for $6,000, why shouldn't I be compensated for making a better looking,successful case my patient will be happy with?
AzDenturist
 
I don't know AZdenturist, your awesome though. I do balanced occlusions and facebow. I use 22 or 3o degree teeth for a good curve of spee and wilson for good bal. but you know that higher end stuff $3000 dentures goes with the turf as far as I'm concerned. If your doing that kinda of stuff then man you must be working with the cream of crop as far as prosthodontist, oral surgeon, or dentist.

Me, I'm just fine working with the people that I love and that the good Lord created me for. This is where I do my best work.

Personally, I feel denturist, we're created to serve the middle to lower income bracket of people in need. We're here to provide denture care to those that can not get dentures from the dentist. If your any good then everyone wants you to make their dentures but the bottom line is that we have a responsibility to the economically disadvantaged people to serve them and with all due respect the others can afford to go to the dentist.

I do recognize that there are different circumstances that I do make exceptions, 1) someone comes in with three sets of dentures and tells me that nobody can help them. 2) there are no dentist in the area or 3) there is a dentist in the area but his work is so bad that a fellow dentist wouldn't take his barking neighbors dog to him because the guy shouldn't be a dentist.

Now please don't get me wrong. I'm not discriminating against someone that makes good money. It's just that I'm a denturist that provides affordable denture care, I have control over the appointment book and I just do not like to hurry a denture patient thru procedures. I do need to spend time with my eleven kids so I can't do everybodys dentures so I usually have a couple dentist that I refer patients out to and that's not just for abnormal looking tissue it's also for dentures.

Oh yes, If your using the old swissident technique that whole procedure is awesome. They don't call it swissident any more though. It's some guy out of California that has a new name on it and the teeth are just as beautiful but correct me if I'm wrong but I think the teeth are made in China now. Wow, what a technique.

Thanks for being here AZdenturist, what's the deal your a new member to. What a blessing. I praise the Lord that I found this community. I appreciate the education I'm picking up---gary
 
I'm with you denturist. Dental care becomes more expensive and boutique every day and there are more and more poor bastards in need of it. I would rather you miss a leukoplakia under someone's tongue and be able to provide care to tons of people that would otherwise get NONE.
 
Oh geez louise Gator, miss a leukoplakia? Now that was a hit below the belt line and I'm referring that patient over to your office.

The great, Dr. John Theibet, graduate of Tufts University and owner and instructor of The Oregon Denturist College would roll over in his grave and chastise me into eternal pathological hell. He was a true professional at teaching.

Gator, thanks for the build-up though. Yea, the dental profession is leaving too many without care and there's no chance of going back to pick them up unless we create more professional divisions in the dental profession. Some things corporate ADA can do.

1) Kick the dental hygienist out of the nest so he/or she can be more productive on a bigger preventive dentistry scale. Independent practice.
2) Make sure the denturist profession is mandated across the Nation.
3) Most important the creation of the dental health aide therapist or a dental type "physician assistant".

The physician assistant helped take the pressure off the medical doctors and has played a good role in providing rural health care. So there's a number of things that can be done without going to socialized medicine.

The approval by ADA of students from foreign dental schools will help but you still have certain mandated fees in need to cover the education and overhead cost of a dental practice.

Corporate ADA needs to change it's care package from self to patient.

Thanks for being here Gator. I hope you have a prosperous New Year---gary
 
This is Gary, right? I'm not saying that we should gouge the public. Believe me I have done more than my share of access, and it brings with it a deep sense of satisfaction that I can take the time and do for this patient what no one else would have. Depending on where you live and what your cost of living is ,will determine what you want to make as a Denturist as well. I just feel that if we as Denturists continue to think that this is only an access issue, then access is what we will end up limiting ourselves to. We could also be reaching that other 90% of denture patients currently paying 5 or 6 thousand dollars at the Dentist or Prosthodontist for an upper and lower made with Kenson teeth. You and I know that we could serve these patients at half that cost, use the best materials,take our time doing so, and give them a better service. That's what Denturists in Canada are doing. They have made it a profession. And there will still be plenty of opportunity to do access. Those that choose to do higher end work should dedicate some time to access as well, I think there has to be a balance. If Dentists and others think that this is based solely on access, how will our profession ever be respected? And truely this issue is not only an access issue. Oh it is for some, but it's also an issue of knowledge and skill.
Yes Swissident changed over to Geneva in California. They now have distribution rights over Candulor. How is everything in Wyoming? How can we help from here in Az?
AzDenturist
 
NileBDS said:
Denturist, you are doing a good service to some people out there, whether we like it or not.
Having said that, and I apologize in advance for being blunt, but "Denturism" as I see it is merely taking advantage of this transient vacuum in access to care, and is not a standard of patient care. The mere existence of this phenomenon is dangerous to the whole dental profession, and signals sharp inefficiencies within our own organization (ADA). In my eyes, Denturists are in no way qualified to diagnose and/or prescribe treatment for oral disease. I have no problem with you working under the direct supervision of a qualified and licensed dental practitioner, as an in-house lab technician would.
Referring to Denturists as "Denture Specialists" or "Dental Prosthetists", as your associations choose to do, is very misleading to the public.
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Nile,

You are right on. Many people in various professions want to play doctor without putting in the time & energy to actually become doctor.

If you want to see patients and make your own dentures, become a dentist. Same thing goes for hygienists... if you want to do fillings and extractions, become a dentist (instead of a hygiene practitioner). Same thing for assistants... if you want to do cleanings... become a hygienist.

Period.

-Mike
 
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NileBDS said:
Denturist, you are doing a good service to some people out there, whether we like it or not.
Having said that, and I apologize in advance for being blunt, but "Denturism" as I see it is merely taking advantage of this transient vacuum in access to care, and is not a standard of patient care. The mere existence of this phenomenon is dangerous to the whole dental profession, and signals sharp inefficiencies within our own organization (ADA). In my eyes, Denturists are in no way qualified to diagnose and/or prescribe treatment for oral disease. I have no problem with you working under the direct supervision of a qualified and licensed dental practitioner, as an in-house lab technician would.
Referring to Denturists as "Denture Specialists" or "Dental Prosthetists", as your associations choose to do, is very misleading to the public.
Click to expand...

I could write my own post, but why bother when the perfect words have already been said.

QFMFT.

Additionally, the proof is in the pudding. Lets see some research on the quality of care given between denturists, general dentists and prosthodontists. All I've heard so far is anecdotes and conjecture.
 
Mike,
Has it ever occurred to you that Denturists don't want to become Dentists?
The truly sad fact is that your associations have fought to delegate away every aspect of Dentistry, and at the same time have fought not to adequately compensate the individuals they delegate these duties to.
For example, in my home state of Connecticut the state dental association was pushing for an expanded duty dental assistant. They had already allowed hygienists to administer anesthesia. However, were these auxiliaries paid any more to attend additional schooling or to fulfill these responsibilities? NO. I applaud the dental hygienists association of Connecticut. They effectively blocked the expanded duty dental assistant plan, by not agreeing on the last 2 of 30 competencies unless a serious discussion of the ADHP was to follow.
And as for putting in the time and energy, full time Denturist programs are 2-3 years in length, assuming that you have experience as a dental technician of at least 4-5 years. That's 2-3 years full-time spent on our specialty. Those years include the following courses;

General Anatomy
Orofacial Anatomy
Biology
Physiology
Pharmacology
Dental Pharmacology
Microbiology and Infection Control
General Histology
Oral Histology
General Embryology
Dental Embryology
Dental Materials
General Pathology
Oral Pathology
Complete Dentures
Radio graph reading
Partial Dentures
Implant Overdentures
Psychology
Practice Management

And then of course there is the overwhelming amount of clinical. Here's a direct quote from Dr. Kenneth Kais DDS who teaches the Denturist program at Bates TC in Tacoma, Washington,"The Denturism graduates at Bates TC are required to complete 10 patients in removable, not arches, so at a minimum, they are completing 2-3 times the clinical cases as our dental school. When a denturist student externs in their second year, they may do 5-10 times that of Univ. of Washington. In addition to the clinical cases, Removable Prosthetics covers about 1,000-1,200 hours of our 2,000 + hrs of study. I have had very little negative comments about our graduates from local Dentists and in fact, most of them refer their patients to Denturists because they either don't want to be bothered by them and can make much more, cutting crown preps all day, or they realize their patients will be getting a better result from a provider with more experience."

No Mike, I'd say it's more of a turf war that organized dentistry is losing. And I guess that's why the insecure dinosaurs that indoctrinated many of you were so upset about the emergence of our profession. We were making their patients happier than they ever could with their dentures. And I would imagine that paying all that money for dental school made them feel entitled to have monopoly control over every aspect of dentistry.

But that's the past. Obviously they were wrong, so why do so many of you still attempt to grind the axe? We are already practicing in 7 states and most of the world. In some states we even own our own dental practices and employ Dentists,Hygienists,assistants,etc.

Are Dentists fighting us because of concerns for patient safety?No. In fact most state dental associations have fought against measures to enact laws that would require at least on CDT work at a dental lab. Why would they do that? To effectively stop dental technicians from commanding more monetarily. All to the detriment of patients. That is why the NADL finally got the balls to go over the Dentists head, and write a letter directly to the FDA regarding dental products coming from China and elsewhere AND about changing the laws so Dentists would finally have to disclose to their patients where they send their lab work to, you know, like the rest of real doctors have to. They got no results with Dentists and the ADA. To opposed Dentists and the ADA and state dental associations this battle is only about control of the entire dental team, and MONEY. Have a nice NYD!
AzDenturist

P.S. you guys do know that you used to be called quacks when the emergence of Dentistry began, right? Until it was recognized that you were in fact educated?
 
Armorshell,
I have a few reports, and will work on posting them this week. You're correct, only anecdotes and conjecture thus far,
AzDenturist
 
azdenturist said:
Mike,
But that's the past. Obviously they were wrong, so why do so many of you still attempt to grind the axe? We are already practicing in 7 states and most of the world. In some states we even own our own dental practices and employ Dentists,Hygienists,assistants,etc.

Are Dentists fighting us because of concerns for patient safety?No. In fact most state dental associations have fought against measures to enact laws that would require at least on CDT work at a dental lab. Why would they do that? To effectively stop dental technicians from commanding more monetarily. All to the detriment of patients. That is why the NADL finally got the balls to go over the Dentists head, and write a letter directly to the FDA regarding dental products coming from China and elsewhere AND about changing the laws so Dentists would finally have to disclose to their patients where they send their lab work to, you know, like the rest of real doctors have to. They got no results with Dentists and the ADA. To opposed Dentists and the ADA and state dental associations this battle is only about control of the entire dental team, and MONEY. Have a nice NYD!
AzDenturist

P.S. you guys do know that you used to be called quacks when the emergence of Dentistry began, right? Until it was recognized that you were in fact educated?
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First of all, it's not evident as you claim that denturism should be supported, and you're further wrong that the sole reason for investigating and probing further into denturism is solely based on money. You said it yourself, most dentists could care less about actually making a denture themselves, and I bet many dentists would love to have an in-house denturist. It's a question a safety and oral health.

Dental auxiliaries, just like medical auxiliaries, need to be supervised to make sure that the dental and oral health of the patients isn't being compromised in any way. Standard of care needs to be upheld, and though you may have taken a few sciences classes as part of your curriculum it doesn't give you any license to diagnose to the SOC of a dentist. Hygienists get training in the sciences as well and similarly, they cannot and should not diagnose, and require dental oversight.

What's with the huge amount of opposition to working under a dentist? Is it simply because you'll be able to make more money working on your own (In your opinion), or have more freedom? That doesn't sound like something someone who consistently preaches selflessness would think.

Additionally, dentists were quacks when the profession first began, so there's that. :laugh:
 
azdenturist said:
Mike,
In some states we even own our own dental practices and employ Dentists,Hygienists,assistants,etc.

P.S. you guys do know that you used to be called quacks when the emergence of Dentistry began, right? Until it was recognized that you were in fact educated?
[/SIZE][/SIZE].
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Az,

I find your response quite humorous because of these two points. You effectively shot yourself in the foot when you mentioned these.

Point 1. You make it seem like you are in it for the money too (like us money grubbing dentists). I believe we are all in it for the good lifestyle (some say this is due to $$, others free time, others because they like teeth... who knows) and enjoyment of the practice. If you are in it only for the money you will make a terrible dentist because this job is way too demanding. I could not wake up every day and go to work if I hated what I did even if I was making more money.

I, in fact, love what I do and enjoy treating patients on a daily basis. What I don't like is the fact that we have so much competition as it is for patients it would be terrible to have some "denture specialist" per say set up in Wal-Mart doing dentures.... or even worse, coming to the country club and setting up a "clinic for seniors"... but those are at least serving the need and good of society... Imagine a denturist set up at a high end shopping mall doing dentures for the same price as a dentist? He would have the capitalistic right to do so if the laws permitted, but you have to realize what you are asking for. There is no simple solution for access to care... and denturism is not one of them.

how about this guy "www.denturist.com"

"In the last few years we have made dentures for clients that have come from far a field as Alaska, Oregon, California, Washington State, Wyoming, Texas, Hawaii and others. We have been pleased to make BPS dentures for these clients. The dentures are made in two days.

We can also complete your dentures through the mail with the same degree of professionalism."

Mail-order dentistry. This is the kind of stuff that the ADA and dentists across the country are concerned about. Is $$ a factor? Of course. Is it the primary factor, nope. We are doctors and seek to protect our profession because we want to keep the integrity of the way it is now and not let it become the mess that organized medicine has let the medical field become. Has incorporation of nurse practitioners made it easier to access medical care? Yeah in many cases. Is medicine as a whole cheaper and have we solved the access to care issue, nope!

Point 2. Weren't you mentioned in another post ... and I quote:

"I challenge you to find one case of a real Denturist (and by that I mean a state licensed Denturist,not some quack operating out of a garage) that has caused harm to the public."

You call one of your own a quack in this quote. If I remember correctly there was a denturist working in West Palm Beach not too long ago in his garage who had licenses in other states but practiced in FL anyways. (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0426071mrbean1.html)

He has a license out of state... does that make him a quack?

---

Think about it like this. Imagine Veterinary Medicine. A vet tech group comes a long and says, there are so many animals to spay and neuter, there is quite an ACCESS TO CARE issue here! Dr. Vets are so overwhelmed with this procedure, let's start our own school where we educate people to do only these two procedures. That sounds great!

I love my denture labs and techs. I do great dentures, high quality, spend the time to do them. I will love having a denture tech in house in the future. I plan on doing a lot of really high quality dentures and I want full control over them. I also know that I need my license to do the best quality care available. I need to pick up a handpiece to make rest seats, guide plates. I also know I need a 15 blade to uncover implants or perform alveoplasties. I know that in many cases, it's in the patient's best interest to get RCT and locators as opposed to EXT and acrylic. How about FPDs with Bredent attachments as opposed to clasps or Valplast?

Yes some schools the requirements are 6 plates of dentures and 3 units of removable. Sure if I had 2 full years of clinical and only focused upon removable, I'd be able to design a cirriculum of 10-15 cases of removable (i.e. denturist program). I don't care if denturist programs get more "training" in removable... that's only logical when comparing apples to oranges. Remember, we had to fit in 20 units of fixed, 80 units of restorative, 2 units of implants, 8 units of endo, extractions, pedo requirements, scaling & root planing requirements, and more!

It's critical to have the knowledge of a dental degree to properly treatment plan and perform these procedures or else "you are a hammer and everything is a nail." Just as it sounds crazy to delegate spay and neuter surgical procedures to vet techs, it sounds crazy to delegate dentures/partials to dental techs.

Moral of the story. You feel as if you are fighting as "underdog" (no pun intended!) and are aggressively promoting your profession. It's fun to be in that position... remember, we are all dental students once and had to "fight against the administration to bring about change." Rudy...rudy... rudy...

I can understand why you would be aggressive at protecting your profession.

Sounds familiar doesn't it?

-Mike
 
I hope your not going to go hide on us because the dentist are putting a little pressure on you.

This is a great community and their turf. I don't want to be shut down here like I was in Wyoming because I was opening up another office.

AZ, unless admin gives us our own little denturist neighborhood within this community we need to be diplomatic about things.

I appreciate my position as a denturist in this all dentist community and please don't blow it for me. I have alot to learn. It's a great community with lots of good stuff.

Don't get me wrong I enjoy a good fight but this isn't the place. I just pray that your involved with the National and your state denturist association.

I appreciate you and I appreciate a good dentist but none of us know each other personally. We don't know much about each others work. Stuff like this gets out of hand and we forget that we're here to serve the patient.

With all due respect AZ I think your awesome and thanks for being here---gary
 
azdenturist said:
Mike,
Has it ever occurred to you that Denturists don't want to become Dentists?
The truly sad fact is that your associations have fought to delegate away every aspect of Dentistry, and at the same time have fought not to adequately compensate the individuals they delegate these duties to.
For example, in my home state of Connecticut the state dental association was pushing for an expanded duty dental assistant. They had already allowed hygienists to administer anesthesia. However, were these auxiliaries paid any more to attend additional schooling or to fulfill these responsibilities? NO. I applaud the dental hygienists association of Connecticut. They effectively blocked the expanded duty dental assistant plan, by not agreeing on the last 2 of 30 competencies unless a serious discussion of the ADHP was to follow.
And as for putting in the time and energy, full time Denturist programs are 2-3 years in length, assuming that you have experience as a dental technician of at least 4-5 years. That's 2-3 years full-time spent on our specialty. Those years include the following courses;

General Anatomy
Orofacial Anatomy
Biology
Physiology
Pharmacology
Dental Pharmacology
Microbiology and Infection Control
General Histology
Oral Histology
General Embryology
Dental Embryology
Dental Materials
General Pathology
Oral Pathology
Complete Dentures
Radio graph reading
Partial Dentures
Implant Overdentures
Psychology
Practice Management

And then of course there is the overwhelming amount of clinical. Here's a direct quote from Dr. Kenneth Kais DDS who teaches the Denturist program at Bates TC in Tacoma, Washington,"The Denturism graduates at Bates TC are required to complete 10 patients in removable, not arches, so at a minimum, they are completing 2-3 times the clinical cases as our dental school. When a denturist student externs in their second year, they may do 5-10 times that of Univ. of Washington. In addition to the clinical cases, Removable Prosthetics covers about 1,000-1,200 hours of our 2,000 + hrs of study. I have had very little negative comments about our graduates from local Dentists and in fact, most of them refer their patients to Denturists because they either don't want to be bothered by them and can make much more, cutting crown preps all day, or they realize their patients will be getting a better result from a provider with more experience."

No Mike, I'd say it's more of a turf war that organized dentistry is losing. And I guess that's why the insecure dinosaurs that indoctrinated many of you were so upset about the emergence of our profession. We were making their patients happier than they ever could with their dentures. And I would imagine that paying all that money for dental school made them feel entitled to have monopoly control over every aspect of dentistry.

But that's the past. Obviously they were wrong, so why do so many of you still attempt to grind the axe? We are already practicing in 7 states and most of the world. In some states we even own our own dental practices and employ Dentists,Hygienists,assistants,etc.

Are Dentists fighting us because of concerns for patient safety?No. In fact most state dental associations have fought against measures to enact laws that would require at least on CDT work at a dental lab. Why would they do that? To effectively stop dental technicians from commanding more monetarily. All to the detriment of patients. That is why the NADL finally got the balls to go over the Dentists head, and write a letter directly to the FDA regarding dental products coming from China and elsewhere AND about changing the laws so Dentists would finally have to disclose to their patients where they send their lab work to, you know, like the rest of real doctors have to. They got no results with Dentists and the ADA. To opposed Dentists and the ADA and state dental associations this battle is only about control of the entire dental team, and MONEY. Have a nice NYD!
AzDenturist

P.S. you guys do know that you used to be called quacks when the emergence of Dentistry began, right? Until it was recognized that you were in fact educated?
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What do you think the reason that you all want to be denturists? To make profit. You want to get more patients in because you know that a lot of them can't afford these dentures at a higher price. You make dentists look like greedy bastards. Does walmart sell products at a low price because they care for the customers? No, they want to make a profit. They know that no one would buy these products at a higher price especially when the product is not that good.
 
Some one needs to close this thread and kick this guy off SDN
 
I have never heard of a "denturist" before but the whole concept seems pretty weird to me...
 
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Oh come on Dr. we have alot to learn from each other please don't cut the wisdom short. I appreciate you being here---gary
 
armorshell said:
I could write my own post, but why bother when the perfect words have already been said.

QFMFT.

Additionally, the proof is in the pudding. Lets see some research on the quality of care given between denturists, general dentists and prosthodontists. All I've heard so far is anecdotes and conjecture.
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It took me 5 whole minutes just to figure that QFMFT thing out. Am I just getting old armor ? :rolleyes:
Thanks for being here.
 
NileBDS said:
As much as I am tired of this discussion and it's lack of any factual substance, there is nothing wrong with dialogue.
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I agree, as long as the discussion stays civil and the blatant "advertising" ceases, there's no reason for this guy to leave.

Heck, it gives the pre-dents and dental students exposure to a hot issue in modern dentistry.
 
Well thanks guys I appreciate being spared from the guillotine. Now I can go to bed and sleep peacefully. Thanks for being here and may our Lord bless you with health and prosperity in the New Year---gary
 
NileBDS said:
It took me 5 whole minutes just to figure that QFMFT thing out. Am I just getting old armor ? :rolleyes:
Thanks for being here.
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i had to look it up in the urban dictionary online to figure it out. lol
 
http://jada.ada.org/cgi/reprint/129/8/1070.pdf

The concerted efforts of auxiliaries to carve out their own niche are not limited to dental hygiene. For example, if you think that denturism is on the wane, you're wrong. Those who monitor legislative activity affecting dentistry have seen an increase in denturist promotion in a number of states, and dental boards have had their hands full countering illegal activities in several states. Some denturists have set up their offices on Indian tribal lands to escape state dental practice acts. Would-be denturists have received a boost for their professional goals by recent action in Washington state. Authorized by a voter initiative in 1994, Washington denturists now can construct both complete and partial dentures—no dentist needed. The denturists' legislative arguments—that they can providegreater access and lower-cost prosthetic services—have been disproved. A report out of Canada last year showed no substantial cost differential between fees charged by dentists and fees charged by denturists.1
 
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tinman831 said:
http://jada.ada.org/cgi/reprint/129/8/1070.pdf

Authorized by a voter initiative in 1994, Washington denturists now can construct both complete and partial dentures—no dentist needed.
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There in lies the problem with voter initiatives. Individuals are smart, people are dumb and the public is just plain ignorant.

I'd love for a voter initiative in FL that would state "FL residents have the option of opting out of all taxes, property, sales, income (which we don't have as it is) and all other taxes. All taxes shall be voluntary" Boy oh boy that sounds great and Mr. and Mrs. Jones who don't know anything will get onto the ballot and read it and say, "Sounds great!" but now the state can't pay for services, schools, etc.

Voting public will vote in initiatives that are just plain rediculous because often times the public as a whole is ignorant. Exception is that in 2004 voters put in a yes vote to appeal a bullet train ($$$$$)... thank goodness. Voters get to these things and vote "yes" just because it sounds good and they want to get out of the booth as fast as possible.

Recent articles published:

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Stevenson RB. - Quackery, fraud, and denturists. J Am Coll Dent. 2003;70(3):34-7.

Denturism is questionable dental practice, even in those few states where it is licensed. Incomplete or incompetent care is quackery. In the early 1980s a few states liberalized their laws to allow denturism to those who were educationally qualified. This experiment has generally failed because all accredited training programs have closed, because prices charged by denturists have about reached parity with dentists' fees, and because of limited demand for denturists' services. Because of the complexity of the message about scientifically-grounded oral health care and the populism of stories about the poor and underserved, dentists must be vigilant regarding their interactions with the media.

-----

Tuominen R. - Oral health in relation to wearing removable dentures provided by dentists, denturists and laboratory technicians. Acta Odontol Scand. 2002 Mar;60(2):98-102.

The aim of this study was to evaluate the oral health of elderly Finnish men wearing removable dentures supplied either by dentists, denturists or laboratory technicians. From a sample of 550 men, 362 subjects were both interviewed and clinically examined. The subjects were asked a range of questions related to their oral health and dentures. Clinical examinations were carried out by one dentist using well-defined criteria and without knowing the information the respective subjects had given in the interview. The 242 denture wearers had a higher frequency (P < 0.001) of mucous membrane lesions (78.7%) than the 120 non-wearers (27.5%). Differences between the denture providers were small, although subjects with dentures provided by dentists had less often most of the recorded mucous membrane lesions than other denture wearers. Coating of tongue and cheilitis angularis were the most commonly encountered lesions. High levels of yeast growth were observed more frequently (P < 0.02) among subjects who had obtained their dentures from dentists (41.3%) than from either denturists (17.1%) or laboratory technicians (18.2%). Among dentate subjects, the average number of remaining teeth was higher (P < 0.05) among those who had obtained their dentures from dentists (8.7) than among subjects wearing dentures from denturists (5.9) or laboratory technicians (6.2). Subjects wearing dentures supplied by dentists had slightly better oral health than other denture wearers. The observed differences can be at least partly explained by dentists' patients having higher number of remaining teeth and also more frequent check-up visits.

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Morin C, Lund JP, Sioufi C, Feine JS. Patient satisfaction with dentures made by dentists and denturologists. J Can Dent Assoc. 1998 Mar;64(3):205-8, 210-2.

BACKGROUND: Within Quebec and elsewhere in Canada, patients requiring removable prostheses consult either dentists or denturologists. In this article, we describe the socioeconomic characteristics of 410 edentulous individuals seeking replacement of their dentures, and compare the levels of satisfaction experienced by the patient groups provided with conventional dentures by dentists and by denturologists. METHODS: All subjects responded to announcements seeking participants in a clinical trial. The announcements indicated that all participants would receive new prostheses. Data were collected via telephone interviews. Sociodemographic variables included sex, age, education level and family income. Subjects were asked to evaluate their present maxillary and mandibular prostheses for general satisfaction, stability, comfort, ability to chew, ability to clean and appearance. Age, cost and the provider (dentist or denturologist) of the original prostheses were also recorded, and responses were then compared between the groups of subjects treated by dentists (N = 91) and denturologists (N = 319). RESULTS: There were no significant differences in the sociodemographic characteristics of the two groups, except for a small difference in mean age (two years). Both groups had paid approximately the same amount for their complete prostheses. As expected, most individuals were satisfied with their maxillary prostheses, but dissatisfied with their mandibular prostheses. Significantly more subjects in the denturologist treatment group than the dentist treatment group gave their mandibular prostheses a poor rating for general satisfaction (p = 0.003), comfort (p = 0.04) and stability (p = 0.016). CONCLUSIONS: These results suggest that the edentulous patients treated by dentists and denturologists share similar sociodemographic characteristics, and pay a similar cost for treatment. However, those treated by denturologists seem to be more dissatisfied with their mandibular prostheses than those treated by dentists.

---

I think the evidence speaks for itself.

-Mike

P.S. You know guys, I have nothing against you or the services any dental technician provides. I am sure you and the members of your profession strive to seek high quality care and fulfillment in life. Removable prosthetics is my most enjoyable part of my practice and where I find a high level of personal satisfaction.

My practice uses multiple labs that are of very high quality. My lab techs are treated as an important part of my team. I do not, however, think it will improve the quality, function, and cost benefit of my care to make my lab techs part of my referral base.

If you want to practice denturism legally, please move to Canada and seek your personal and professional fulfillment there. Just please don't push it upon us.
 
Note:

I work at two practices and one is a cosmetic practice and the other is a rural health community clinic. I find both practices to be exciting and fulfilling in their own ways. I also worked at the Indian Health Service for a small period of time.

I personally would love to have a denturist on staff at the health clinic and would have loved one at the IHS. At the clinic we see so much removable and don't have time to spend with them because of the nature of a public health clinic (30min apts max). It would be fantastic to have a denturist there making impressions, making the dentures & partials in house as opposed to sending the cases half way around the world or in other labs in state. I am different, however, in the fact that if a patient's case is not going well and I need to reset the front six on a partial or denture... I will and not care if I fall behind. The clinic can deal with it and figure it out as we go... trust me, they're happy to oblige.

I can see denturism as a critical part of the in-house dental team and especially in IHS, public health and private practices. I just don't see a model of independent denturist practice to be an effective way to deliver dental care.

In the future, I plan on having a dental lab tech on staff to do my set-ups and processing in house for CDs and partials. I would love to have the control for shade match, mould selection, esthetics & phoentics to accompany my work by having a tech in house.

-Mike
 
Tinman thanks for being here and thanks for the reference material. We have to keep in mind that Canada has a different health care delivery system. It's along the same line if you will as medicaid or medicare if we're both practicing in say Washington (denturist regulated) and medicaid pays $800/denture we both charge the same price.

Another thing we have to keep in mind regarding the statistical information out in the US regarding denturist and dentist is outdated. Most of it was compiled by dentist and/or the ADA back in the late 80's and early 90's.

Things have changed economically, socially and in the dental profession. So we can't rely on the Canadian denturist or dentist for statistics due to the difference in their health care delivery system and the professions in the US has no updated statistical information.

Common sense tells me that the denturist can provide service to those in need at a more affordable price due to our overhead not being as high as a dentist. This includes education, structure, equipment/supplies, employees, insurance and lifestyle.

Tinman thanks for your consieration---gary
 
denturist said:
Common sense tells me that the denturist can provide service to those in need at a more affordable price due to our overhead not being as high as a dentist. This includes education, structure, equipment/supplies, employees, insurance and lifestyle.
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Common sense also tells us that the sun orbits the earth, but we both know how that turned out don't we?

Without any sort of evidence, you're just blowing smoke.
 
mike3kgt yes, I believe your right on the taxation but health care is a different issue because it involves compassion for others. The initiative process states we the people so an American appreciates the opportunity to vote on issues.

Mike I feel your not giving people enough credit for choices they make in life. In each one of the states where the voters have voted for regulating the denturist profession it has proved to serve those in need.

It's been a good deal for dentist due to referrals from denturist that includes extented family members. I requested from a doctor at the University of Washington dental school, a study on the denturist profession for my state legislature. He was the same doctor that did the study on the Alaskan dental health therapist.

Regarding the study you gave reference to, thank you. This study is presented by the Canadian Dental Association and we both know the study is partial to dentist. If we took the same patient and gave them the opposite of who initiated thier dentures service we could see a difference in ending results.

Most dentist do not have the chairtime needed for successful denture cases. In most cases the dentist chairtime is devoted to restorative and cosmetic dentistry. Who has time for denture adjustments and patients that don't know what they want in their dentures. The bites off, the anterior upper teeth are out too far, there's too much space in between the upper ant. teeth and lower anteriors, the teeth are to dark, I wanted white teeth, it feels like I have too much in my mouth, I can't eat lettuce and the list goes on. Denturist work with denture patients all the time. Everyday, it's what most of us do best.

Your an exception to the dental profession Dr. with removables being your favorite. I'm sure ADA still has promotional grants available to you if you'll be a prosthodontist. ADA is trying to encourage more dentist to go into removables. Forgive me Dr. but what a waste of a good dentist especially with the shortage of good dentist that we're faced with today.

All that education and your going to do removables? If corporate ADA had any common sense at all they would be running denturist colleges in all regions of the U.S.

Denturist have one college in the U.S. and a two to three year waiting list. Mike how about you since you have a love for removables. How about you and a few other dentist start an accredited denturist college?

Rural health clinic and Indian Health Services wow that's great Dr. If we could get you into corporate ADA we might see some changes in the profession. Of all people your sure to know the dental needs out across America.

Denturist need independent practices. If they work out of a dental office we have to charge more because of overhead. It doesn't work. It's a much better working relationship with the patient. We bring more people in that have been edentulous, and denture wearers over a longer period of time.

According to "them" we are the reason there in other wise verticle keeps closing, hearing gets worse and facial lines turn to wrinkles. This doesn't even go into TMJ disorders due to no removable prosthesis mainteance.

You've heard the old story at least one or two times, " I got these dentures 25 years ago and I haven't had to do a thing to them. Well Mr. Jones your in need of some new dentures. Oh no, just reline these they'll be fine. Well sir, your teeth are worn down and you have these little holes back here (max.tuberosity area) so I feel new dentures would better serve your functional needs. Okay, how much are they? I charge $545 for a new denture. #^*545???^#*. You got to be kidding. That's over a thousand dollars. I don't have that kinda money. Do you take payments? Yes, I can do three payments over three months.

So that's life as a denturist. We serve people that have no intention of going to a dentist. Some may go to a low income neighborhood clinic but they're far and few between due to discouragement by corporate ADA's policy.

Thanks for being here mike3kgt and thanks for being out there---gary
 
Again, the practice of dentistry is not based on common sense, it's based on evidence, which you have yet to show us is contrary to the studies posted above. Feel free to claim systemic bias in favor of the dentists, but I don't see any denturists doing the research and it would be oh so easy to pass the same bias buck back your direction if they were.

I'm not interested in anecdotes, stories, opinions, or ramblings about corporate ADA. All you've done so far on this forum is compliment those who agree with you and ramble on to those who don't.

Where's the beef?
 
Oh come on armorshell, common sense is all we have to work with here. It's not like I quoted any statistical information. In business, overhead expenses are an obvious issue if your looking at the bottom line. If I'm going to drive a Jaguar then I need to either charge more for my dentures or make more dentures.

Thanks for being here armorshell. I appreciate you---gary
 
armorshell said:
Again, the practice of dentistry is not based on common sense, it's based on evidence

And that's good reason why I refer my patients out to a dentist when I see an abnormality---gary
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armorshell said:
Again, the practice of dentistry is not based on common sense, it's based on evidence

And that's good reason why I refer my patients out to a dentist when I see an abnormality.

Thanks for being here armorshell---gary
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quote armorshell, "Again, the practice of dentistry is not based on common sense, it's based on evidence....."

And that's good reason why I refer my patients out to a dentist when I see an abnormality. Thanks for being here armorshell---gary
 
denturist said:
Oh come on armorshell, common sense is all we have to work with here. It's not like I quoted any statistical information. In business, overhead expenses are an obvious issue if your looking at the bottom line. If I'm going to drive a Jaguar then I need to either charge more for my dentures or make more dentures.

Thanks for being here armorshell. I appreciate you---gary
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If you really believe that, you're beyond help. I would love to see some statistical information, what's so wrong with that?
 
Goodness armorshell, I'm all for doing a presentation with statistical reports and all but they're not available.

I'm referring my patient over to you with a discription of the abnormality. Do you want a statistical report along with it.

I can only discribe what I see. I'm the denturist. Your the dentist with all the education. You do the diagnosis and send me the report. With all do respect---gary
 
denturist said:
Regarding the study you gave reference to, thank you. This study is presented by the Canadian Dental Association and we both know the study is partial to dentist.
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Many scientific studies have author bias... just as when insurance companies pay people to write studies about insurance or drug companies pay people to report about drugs, we all have bias... we are human. The moral of the story is, however, the science speaks for itself. Chiropractors don't have respect throughout the country because very few schools are associated with universities and they perform very little research. Performing scientific research is not critical to becoming a great dentist, but it is critical to have to further advance one's own field. Even hygienists perform science! Evidence-based practice is here to stay and is the future of all health professions. Because I am young I just cannot say to a patient, it's what I've been doing for 30 years. When I have a patient who says, but doc, why should I do it the way you are saying even though other dentists don't feel that way... I give them the evidence and let them decide what they value.


denturist said:
Most dentist do not have the chairtime needed for successful denture cases. In most cases the dentist chairtime is devoted to restorative and cosmetic dentistry. Who has time for denture adjustments and patients that don't know what they want in their dentures. The bites off, the anterior upper teeth are out too far, there's too much space in between the upper ant. teeth and lower anteriors, the teeth are to dark, I wanted white teeth, it feels like I have too much in my mouth, I can't eat lettuce and the list goes on.
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Trust me, if dentists don't have time for adjustments because they are busy with "cosmetic procedures", they are making a big mistake as I consider dentures to be a cosmetic procedure. Often times, lazy, insolent people give their profession a bad name and there's no exception in dentistry. I saw it in dental school. If you just want to get by, you could but that's just like having the minimum amount of flare. (i.e. Office Space).


denturist said:
Rural health clinic and Indian Health Services wow that's great Dr. If we could get you into corporate ADA we might see some changes in the profession. Of all people your sure to know the dental needs out across America.
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I've been asked... after my four years of dental school and being student government president, I'm done. Maybe later in life if I get bored with private practice and I'm asked to help with the fight against expansion of scope of practice.

IHS and rural health clinics are a FANTASTIC opportunity for dentists. If I were to do full time at the health clinic I could make in the 120-150 range... not bad for low stress! No production goals, good hearted people, just boring dentistry. Indian Health Service pays at a minimum around 100 and provides incredible benefits. I can't imagine somebody not being able to live like a king in rural parts of the country on that salary/benefits. Many times, the only thing holding dentists back is the lack of enjoyable dentistry. I couldn't imagine doing complex class II amalgams and extractions all day for the rest of my life.

denturist said:
Denturist need independent practices. If they work out of a dental office we have to charge more because of overhead. It doesn't work. It's a much better working relationship with the patient.
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I think of the idea of denturism to be a great idea as an asset to the dental team but I actually challenge you to prove this point. I truthfully believe that planned properly, a denturist practice within a dental practice is the ideal model and can be very cost-effective.

I cannot see how a denturist practice could be that much less overhead of a dental practice of the same scope. If you and I were to open two quite identical practices right next to each other in the same building ... let's say strip mall. 1000 square feet of office leased with two operatories... same rent there. Two chairs? Check... same cost. Impression materials, waxes, trays, pan x-ray machines? Check... same cost. Ok, we both have a busy practice so we both need one assistant to mix impression materials and setup, tear down... yup... same cost. Are we busy and want a receptionist to answer the phones and file "insurance" claims? You bet... but that'll cost the same too. Unless you purchase sub-par equipment, are a jerk and pay really low salaries or work alone (which some dentists do!)... it's hard to make it much cheaper.

I just cannot see, with the exception of not having a lab cost (which would be negated in a dental-team model anyways because you would be doing the lab portion in the lab that I would provide), how independent denturist practice is more cost effective.

I do, however, like a challenge and please prove me wrong.

denturist said:
You've heard the old story at least one or two times, " I got these dentures 25 years ago and I haven't had to do a thing to them. Well Mr. Jones your in need of some new dentures. Oh no, just reline these they'll be fine. Well sir, your teeth are worn down and you have these little holes back here (max.tuberosity area) so I feel new dentures would better serve your functional needs. Okay, how much are they? I charge $545 for a new denture. #^*545???^#*. You got to be kidding. That's over a thousand dollars. I don't have that kinda money. Do you take payments? Yes, I can do three payments over three months.

So that's life as a denturist. We serve people that have no intention of going to a dentist. Some may go to a low income neighborhood clinic but they're far and few between due to discouragement by corporate ADA's policy.
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You know, I certainly feel your pain on this one. Like I mentioned before, I work at two practices. At practice A, we charge about 2,400 each plate (4,800 for each denture). At clinic B, we charge based upon a sliding scale according to patient income. From a low of 350 to a high of 750. It does not matter how much or how little you charge, but people will always find a way to bitch about the cost. This is the mentality of the Wal-Mart based society we are in.

The old saying is that there is no such thing as a bad denture, only bad patients. I don't know about how much truth there is to that because I have seen some terrible dentures and great patients, but hopefully you get my point.

Why do we charge so much for dentures at practice A? Because it's what it costs to produce the quality and level of care that we want to provide. Time is money. Denturists, I am sure, are familiar with this philosophy. As a general rule, the more time you put into a denture/partial, the better result. If you want a better result, it will take more time, and as a result, more $. This is a generality, I am aware that some cases are perfect with very little time but 'ol Murphy kicks in some times and you just gotta reset the entire denture.

As for corporate ADA's policy regarding community health clinics please read the following:

http://www.ada.org/prof/advocacy/issues/community.asp

"The ADA works with a number of stakeholders to improve access to oral health care services and to help ensure that all Americans have access to quality oral health care, including recognition of the important role of CHCs as safety net providers for underserved populations in America."

Please tell me how community health clinics are faced with "discouragement by corporate ADA's policy"? This statement is totally wrong and not backed with any evidence. In fact, please review funding structure of medicaid, SCHIP, etc. and you will find that our state legislature's or national legislature's lacking of funding for these arenas are of the fore-front of the debate.

Most of the funding that comes to our community clinic is from government grants and donations. We make it happen even when faced with difficulties of funding. If you are truly concerned about access to care, write your senator/congressman/etc. and encourage them to support healthcare funding for these types of clinics as opposed to writing them to do something drastic like forcing expansion of scope of practice of a profession that does not exist just to serve a need that could be met with our current model of practice.

----

You are right in that most dentists don't like dentures (denture patients) and I could see if denturism becomes en-vogue, the profession as a whole would love to embrace the emerging profession. Just as we have hygienists as a part of our team, it would be excellent to have denturists as apart of our team.
 
Okay armorshell here is the most resent study done in 2000, over seven years ago and you know how much this good ole world has changed even since 9/11. It's a good report and goes over a number of issues that we've talked about. Thanks for being here. I appreciate you---gary

http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/lrcpubs/rr292.pdf
 
ADA Policies
Guidelines for Neighborhood Health Centers (1968:20,
307)
Because of special circumstances which may exist and because
Neighborhood Health Centers have been established or are
under way in many areas, the Association has developed the
following guidelines on their operation:
1. Dental care should be provided through private practice or
existing public facilities rather than at a Neighborhood
Health Center when in the opinion of the local or
constituent dental society such existing facilities are
available.
2. Where a Neighborhood Health Center is established,
eligible patients should also have the option to obtain care
through private dental offices.
3. Dental aspects of Neighborhood Health Centers should be
developed with consultation and cooperation of state and
local dental societies.
NATIONAL HEALTH PROGRAMS 169
4. An advisory committee from the component or constituent
dental society should be established to provide liaison
between the Neighborhood Health Centers and the dental
profession. In instances where a Neighborhood Health
Center has a formally constituted professional advisory
board, a representative of the dental society should be
included thereon.
5. Dentists who provide dental care at a Neighborhood
Health Center must meet state licensure requirements.
6. Development and administration of the dental care
programs of a Neighborhood Health Center should be
under the control of a dentist.
7. Dental services provided at a Neighborhood Health Center
should be of high quality with provision for periodic
assessment of quality by a review committee of the
appropriate local or constituent dental society.
8. Neighborhood Health Center programs should be
coordinated with other publicly funded programs in the
area to avoid duplication of funding, facilities and
services.
9. A health education program including dental health
should be provided to all beneficiaries of Neighborhood
Health Centers.
10. Consideration should be given to using a dental service
corporation as administrator or fiscal intermediary for
Office of Economic Opportunity dental care programs.
11. Any experimental programs at Neighborhood Health
Centers for teaching dental personnel or expanding the
functions of auxiliary dental personnel should be under
the supervision of a recognized dental school of the​
constituent dental society.

mike3kgt, after reading the link you provided and rereading the information that I based my statement on;

ADA Policies, Guidelines for Neighborhood Health Centers (1968:20,307) section one that's highlighted and particulars underlined above; please allow me to retract my statement, "Some may go to a low income neighborhood clinic but they're far and few between due to discouragement by corporate ADA's policy."

As far as working with the economically disadvantaged people there's no pain. I enjoy that part of my practice.

After I was shut down by the Wyoming dental board I was trying to be instrumental in starting a neigborhood health clinic in Casper with volunteered retired dentist. I had two retired dentist call, one was very interrested the other some what. I called the dental association and Dr. Clark was instrumental in checking with other retired dentist but no interest.

I also tried getting with the dental clinic on the Wind River Indian Reservation. Dr. Sheridan was interested but there's no job discription or code for hiring denturist thru IHS.

I appreciate your professionalism in this community. Thank you for being here---gary
 
As a denturist, do you guys even explain or let the patients know their options for implants? Show them the difference between a standard Mand CD versus two implants with locaters? I personally present an implant retained lower denture (minimum two implants) as the standard of care. DO you explain to patients that although implants are expensive, they preserve the alveolar ridge, resulting in less bone loss, possibly more longevity of their prosthetic(replacing o-rings rather than the prosthetic every 5 - 7 years.) and in the long run being less expensive to maintain. This is only a hint in why you have no business providing DENTAL CARE without a license. There is a reason why our dentures are more expensive than yours, our training was more expensive, we are actually trained to educate and diagnose, the expense to equip a dental office including staff certainly has something to do with fees, etc..etc.... You throw an inexpensive denture into a patients mouth, sure they saved some money, but probably have no reason to schedule with a dentist. All it takes is one patient with a treatable lesion that was missed resulting in advanced cancer. Do you think that in all the Denturists' dentures there was that one patient? I would emphatically say 100% yes. This is an obvious disservice with no logical argument.
 
OceanDMD-all the time. I talk with the patient regarding lower retention and stability of the denture and if the interest is there I do a patient referral service to a dentist that offers implant services. I usually give them a choice of a dentist and oral surgeon.

I have called and made appointments for the patient while the patient is in my office. As far as going into the science of it, I feel that's the dentists job with the radiograph in front of the patient.

I have no problem with your education or services Dr. You get all the denture work that you want don't you? Most of the people I serve providing denture care are not going to make a denture appointment with you unless they win the lottery.

We do histology and pathology classes as denturist students. Our state boards include pathology questions. All we do is recognize healthy tissue. If we see that a patient isn't healthy we're educated to refer that patient out to you. Just ask the Wyoming Dental Board. For a while there I had an influx of patients coming in with pathologic conditions. I have a good record of referral services.

Thanks for being here OceanDMD---gary
 
denturist said:
After I was shut down by the Wyoming dental board I was trying to be instrumental in starting a neigborhood health clinic in Casper with volunteered retired dentist. I had two retired dentist call, one was very interrested the other some what. I called the dental association and Dr. Clark was instrumental in checking with other retired dentist but no interest.

I also tried getting with the dental clinic on the Wind River Indian Reservation. Dr. Sheridan was interested but there's no job discription or code for hiring denturist thru IHS.
Click to expand...

I see the underlying despise that you may have for organized dentistry. It's unfortunate that good deeds go unfounded... but your actions may be interpreted as a pork barrel style tactic... were you interested in starting a community health center for the good of the community alone or were you also interested in having a job?. I imagine there is more to your story than you let up...

I am sure you have reviewed most of the policy guidelines as if you were being sued and you have memorized them, but as the way I see it, I still don't see how "corporate ADA policy" discourages community health clinics. The way that I read that statement is that the ADA is basically saying they want the local dental societies to determine what is best for their own state/county/district etc!!!

It reads to me alike how a president would say they would prefer states and cities to determine their own local policies (i.e. same sex marriages, California's desire to regulate their own emission-controls, etc). It seems to me that the ADA is being very appropriate!

I also read further that:

Health Centers (2005:338)
Resolved, that the Association encourage dialogue between constituent and component societies and CHCs located in their areas for the purpose of improving access through increased private contracting between CHCs and private sector dentists, and be it further Resolved, that the Association approach the Department of Health and Human Services to establish a pilot program to facilitate CHC private contracting with dentists, and be it further

----

In my current situation, I can see how the ADA's policy of allowing local constituents decide whether a community health clinic is appropriate or not appropriate in their own community is excellent. What works in my community may or may not be appropriate in your community. Wyoming and Florida both have some significant rural areas but I imagine are two very distinct places and broad-brush politics is scary!!

What the ADA doesn't want to happen is a board of directors or a community health clinic to become so entrenched that dentists who work for these sites don't have the patient's best interest in mind, rather, the health center may be a not-for-profit but still push profits (salaries)!!

----

As for the Indian Health Service, as it stands now your profession is not recognized by that organization. Maybe that will change over time, maybe not... who knows. I do know that, however, EFDAs can work at IHS sites and can perform restorations and such. Maybe your best bet is to campaign to IHS as opposed to vehemently fighting against the ADA!

I think what is happened is that a personal experience has made you so off-put with all of dentistry as a whole you are thrashing at the most obvious example, the ADA. Maybe the following is what gets "denturists" upset:

Opposition to “Denturist Movement” (2001:436)
Resolved, that the Association vigorously opposes denturism, the denturism movement, and all other similar activities, regardless of how they are designated, in this country. “Denturist” and “Denturism” (1976:868; 2001:436)

Resolved, that when the words “denturist” or “denturism” and all synonymous terms are used in American Dental Association publications, the terms should be accompanied by a brief but prominent footnote indicating that a “denturist” is a person who is educationally unqualified to practice dentistry in any form on the public, and be it further Resolved, that constituent and component societies act in concert with the American Dental Association.

---

If you really, truly love what you do and wish to practice freely, go to Canada (or the states that permit denturism). The way this country is going now, it's not too bad an idea!!! (If it weren't for the frigid cold, my girlfriend and I would probably move there)

-Mike
 
denturist said:
OceanDMD-all the time. I talk with the patient regarding lower retention and stability of the denture and if the interest is there I do a patient referral service to a dentist that offers implant services. I usually give them a choice of a dentist and oral surgeon.

I have called and made appointments for the patient while the patient is in my office. As far as going into the science of it, I feel that's the dentists job with the radiograph in front of the patient.

I have no problem with your education or services Dr. You get all the denture work that you want don't you? Most of the people I serve providing denture care are not going to make a denture appointment with you unless they win the lottery.

We do histology and pathology classes as denturist students. Our state boards include pathology questions. All we do is recognize healthy tissue. If we see that a patient isn't healthy we're educated to refer that patient out to you. Just ask the Wyoming Dental Board. For a while there I had an influx of patients coming in with pathologic conditions. I have a good record of referral services.

Thanks for being here OceanDMD---gary
Click to expand...

So on the same note,

Do you think that denturists should be allowed to do hybrids? Well, if denturists can easily place locators in implants, why shouldn't they be allowed to use screw retained crowns, or how about implant support fpds? It's all the same stuff! Think about how much money we could save the public!

If a patient were to come to you with a little tissue covering the screw cover, would you actually refer to a dentist ($$) to uncover the screw or would you just punch it. I can picture a denturist in a practice and little old Mrs. Jones sits in the chair and begs " 'doctor', please can't you do it here, I mean, come on, it's just a little piece of gums. I drove here 40 miles to save money and you're telling me I need to see a dentist!"

Well... why you're at it, why doesn't denturists place mini implants because it would increase access to care and they are qualifieid because they can interpret pan x-rays and they're "temporary" anyways. The way people keep throwing around "2 implant retained mandibular overdentures = standard of care" (which makes me ill), would you be practicing below the standard of care if you were not allowed to place your own minimially invasive implants?

What's the limit man!?

Seriously guys, can't you see the point of organized dentistry? It's not always about conspiracy theories or pissing contests. We have worked so incredibly hard to get to this point (money aside, it was hell), can't you see how those "corporate ADA" guys react to this stuff?

-Mike
 
Who actually reads these extremely long posts???? I just look at them and think gee that guy has an ax to grind. :sleep::sleep::sleep:
 
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