Difficulty of Nursing+Anesthesia school vs Med school?

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sumbody

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Hey guys I have my heart set on working in healthcare and took a few years off after college because I was scared of what med school would entail. I have lots of passions and interests and am wary of spending my best years in class/studying 80-100 hrs a week. I don't know from all the stories I hear, med school seems akin to joining the army, as in one of the most extreme and brutal experiences a first-world country citizen can voluntarily have.

I felt like I found a middle ground in becoming a CRNA, in that you would be working in the medical field with a decent lifestyle with a growing level of independence if the AANA has their way. I'm taking prereqs right now and am breezing by them, but I have this doubt in my mind which I can't get rid of, is med school REALLY that much harder than becoming a RN->CRNA? You have far more opportunities as an MD, and the 2 year nursing program I have ahead of me is said to be no joke, and then there's 2-3 years of CRNA school, which is said to be as tough as going through an Anesthesiologist's residency if not worse.

Of course, in between I would be working as an ICU RN ~40 hrs a week for 1-3 years, which is a breeze compared to anything in med school. But if I pursue a specialty with a light residency such as Psychiatry, I would be working the last ~3 years around 40 hours a week as well. So the main deciding factor, assuming I'm attracted to specialty with a light residency and I am praying this is the case, is how much more difficult are the first 2 years of medical school compared to 2 years of nursing school?

Also, yes, I know the distinctions b/w nurses and doctors, I've had plenty of volunteer hours working with nurses and have shadowed doctors.

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Don't tell any anesthesiologists that crna school is equal or harder than their residency.:uhno:
 
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As someone who is currently a nurse and pursuing medicine, and at one point thought of going to NP or CRNA school, I can tell you the work is different. As a CRNA you enjoy GREAT benefits when it comes to hrs, call (not so much if you're in a small practice), compensation, and sweet lifestyle, again, depending on the practice. But your work will revolve around patients who are generally healthy. Depending on your supervising anesthesiologist, they tend to dictate a lot of what you can do, at least it's like this at my ex- boyfriend's practice. My ex had 8 years of experience as a CVICU nurse before he was accepted to NA school. I didn't like the idea that one needed 5+ years of experience or more in ICU and the case load wasn't as challenging.

Difficulty? I can't personally say because I didn't go through the program but there were times where he broke down in tears.
 
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all 4 years of nursing school can probably fit into one semester of medical school.

and don't say weird stuff like med school being the "most extreme and brutal experiences a first-world country citizen can voluntarily have." that's just patently ridiculous and out of touch with the realities of the majority of Americans
 
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Can't help make your decision for you OP, but if you already have a Bachelor degree there's tons of accelerated nursing programs that give out BSN after 1 year.
 
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Just to be clear... you're basically deciding your 1 and only life - decades of post-medical school living - based on how "hard" 2 years of pre-clinicals might be.

For most competitive pre-meds, who are hard-working students, that seems hard to understand.

PS- The lowest weekly hours in residency is in Dermatology followed by Radiology. Psych is third with ~55 hours. (I'll try to find the study if you want)
 
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all 4 years of nursing school can probably fit into one semester of medical school.

and don't say weird stuff like med school being the "most extreme and brutal experiences a first-world country citizen can voluntarily have." that's just patently ridiculous and out of touch with the realities of the majority of Americans

Even though I agree with your statement, your delivery was inappropriate. You are free to criticize her statement, but you can't tell her what she can and cannot say.

Just to be clear... you're basically deciding your 1 and only life - decades of post-medical school living - based on how "hard" 2 years of pre-clinicals might be.

For most competitive pre-meds, who are hard-working students, that seems hard to understand.

PS- The lowest weekly hours in residency is in Dermatology followed by Radiology. Psych is third with ~55 hours. (I'll try to find the study if you want)

I agree. OP, think more carefully about the specialty you want to go with. I understand being concerned with lifestyle from a social/familial perspective, but choosing a specialty for its light residency load is not the best way to go. You'll be working way more than 40 hours a week if you decide to go to medical school no matter the specialty, and that will be pure torture for you if you're looking for the lightest load.
 
Even though I agree with your statement, your delivery was inappropriate. You are free to criticize her statement, but you can't tell her what she can and cannot say.
you're free to criticize my statement but you can't tel me what i can or cannot say.
 
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you're free to criticize my statement but you can't tel me what i can or cannot say.

You're free to criticize my statement, but you can't tell me what I can or cannot say.
 
You're free to criticize my statement, but you can't tell me what I can or cannot say.
That's all you have? Editing changes? Bravo.
 
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Even though I agree with your statement, your delivery was inappropriate. You are free to criticize her statement, but you can't tell her what she can and cannot say.



I agree. OP, think more carefully about the specialty you want to go with. I understand being concerned with lifestyle from a social/familial perspective, but choosing a specialty for its light residency load is not the best way to go. You'll be working way more than 40 hours a week if you decide to go to medical school no matter the specialty, and that will be pure torture for you if you're looking for the lightest load.

The irony is real.
 
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Just to be clear... you're basically deciding your 1 and only life - decades of post-medical school living - based on how "hard" 2 years of pre-clinicals might be.

For most competitive pre-meds, who are hard-working students, that seems hard to understand.

PS- The lowest weekly hours in residency is in Dermatology followed by Radiology. Psych is third with ~55 hours. (I'll try to find the study if you want)
I did a quick google and came up with nothing, if you could post the study it would be greatly appreciated!
 
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You're free to criticize my statement, but you can't tell me what I can or cannot say.
Just when you think pre allo can't sink any lower...
 
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OP, a nursing forum discussing a related topic:

http://allnurses.com/pre-crna-inquiry/crna-vs-anesthesiologist-272072.html

Since you're going into nursing in the immediate future it may be helpful for you to hear their side of things as well.

First posts I see:

wtbcrna said:
There is almost NO difference in the practice of a CRNA and an anesthesiologist as far as the OR goes. The only differences that you will see are in practices that utilize ACT model or individual practices that require supervision by MDAs.

Personally, already being a nurse and working in critical care it didn't make much sense to seriously consider becoming an MDA.

Besides there is no valid study that shows that MDAs are better than CRNAs

ebear said:
It's been my experience that the majority (not all) anesthesiologists cannot lift a finger to help themselves. The clinical aspect of providing anesthesia care is the same for both. Because they were RNs first, the CRNA seems to be more in tune with pt. care details and comfort measures. The MDAs I've worked with seem to be quite cocky and think they poop ice cream. Give me an excellent CRNA any day!!!!
cheers.gif
I once worked with an MDA who put the pt. on "auto pilot" and walked up and down the hall reading the Wallstreet Journal ! Got to check those stocks ya know!!!!

I can't even go further..I just can't +pissed+
 
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I felt like I found a middle ground in becoming a CRNA, in that you would be working in the medical field with a decent lifestyle with a growing level of independence if the AANA has their way. I'm taking prereqs right now and am breezing by them, but I have this doubt in my mind which I can't get rid of, is med school REALLY that much harder than becoming a RN->CRNA? You have far more opportunities as an MD, and the 2 year nursing program I have ahead of me is said to be no joke, and then there's 2-3 years of CRNA school, which is said to be as tough as going through an Anesthesiologist's residency if not worse.

I can tell you through my observations (of family member/family friends): Residency is MUCH harder than a few years of CRNA school. You are dealing with adults that have pursued one of the hardest study paths (four years of medical school) verses people who have become a nurse within their four years of undergraduate studies or in 1-1.5 accelerated years. Besides that fact, Anesthesiologists are given much more responsibility because, after all, they are doctors.
 
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Hey guys I have my heart set on working in healthcare and took a few years off after college because I was scared of what med school would entail. I have lots of passions and interests and am wary of spending my best years in class/studying 80-100 hrs a week. I don't know from all the stories I hear, med school seems akin to joining the army, as in one of the most extreme and brutal experiences a first-world country citizen can voluntarily have.

I felt like I found a middle ground in becoming a CRNA, in that you would be working in the medical field with a decent lifestyle with a growing level of independence if the AANA has their way. I'm taking prereqs right now and am breezing by them, but I have this doubt in my mind which I can't get rid of, is med school REALLY that much harder than becoming a RN->CRNA? You have far more opportunities as an MD, and the 2 year nursing program I have ahead of me is said to be no joke, and then there's 2-3 years of CRNA school, which is said to be as tough as going through an Anesthesiologist's residency if not worse.

Of course, in between I would be working as an ICU RN ~40 hrs a week for 1-3 years, which is a breeze compared to anything in med school. But if I pursue a specialty with a light residency such as Psychiatry, I would be working the last ~3 years around 40 hours a week as well. So the main deciding factor, assuming I'm attracted to specialty with a light residency and I am praying this is the case, is how much more difficult are the first 2 years of medical school compared to 2 years of nursing school?

Also, yes, I know the distinctions b/w nurses and doctors, I've had plenty of volunteer hours working with nurses and have shadowed doctors.


You sound exactly like the new generation of CRNAs coming through the pipe line. Wanting all that independence and not willing to earn a minute of it.

You can't exist without the safety blanket of the anesthesiologist to put out your fires and you know it.
 
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People on these boards know I am the last to criticize other health professionals...

But statements like the above from the CRNA boards make me incredibly uncomfortable. There's nothing more dangerous than not even knowing how much you don't know.
 
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You sound exactly like the new generation of CRNAs coming through the pipe line. Wanting all that independence and not willing to earn a minute of it.

You can't exist without the safety blanket of the anesthesiologist to put out your fires and you know it.
lobbying at the state level to change laws regardless of patient safety takes a lot of time and energy you know.
 
People on these boards know I am the last to criticize other health professionals...

But statements like the above from the CRNA boards make me incredibly uncomfortable. There's nothing more dangerous than not even knowing how much you don't know.
Never read those boards. It's always a bunch of N=1 examples and AANA bullet points mixed with fantasy and delusion. And a good dusting of bluster.
There's nothing wrong with being a CRNA, I work with some great ones, but the gold standard for anesthesiology is an anesthesiologist. I'm not sure why one would want to short cut that, but I've never looked for the shortcut to anything outside of a road trip.
And you're right, they don't know what they don't know.
Good luck OP.
 
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someone posted a link on SDN two months ago: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...re-compensation-than-other-residents.1081605/

family medicine is missing from it though along with some other surgical residencies.
Oh snap, that's PGY-1, I assumed it would be close to 80 hrs regardless of your specialty for your intern year, Psych's is only 55! EM's looks nice too, if I do medicine I'll aim for that and go to psych if I don't get a spot. Anyone know about PMR residency hours?

Also, all the CRNA stuff, why are you guys worrying about it, you literally can do nothing about it, its the big organizations duking it out not us, looks like the AANA is winning though. They have studies (though I'm not sure if a few studies alone can set such a large precedent) showing how patient safety is the same with a CRNA practicing independently and supervised by a an anesthesiologist, and also there's going to a be surplus of CRNA's and a huge Anesthesia provider shortage so that should also help CRNA's push for independence practice. That or their salaries get demolished.
 
You're right to not be sure about a few studies funded by the very group it intends to benefit. Those AANA funded studies are trash meant to distort reality for politicians who don't understand what really goes on in the OR. Famous people (Michael Jackson, Joan Rivers) have to die for the public to care about how they are getting their anesthesia.

If you are already thinking about which residency has the easiest hours and you havent even been accepted to med school, then congratulations my friend. Welcome to CRNA school! The place where all the "coulda been's" go so they can masquerade around and say "I'm Bill with anesthesia" in hopes that the patient assumes you are my equivalent. Pro-tip: You aren't.

All my overnight calls, all my late hours gave me around 10,000 clinical hours that you DO NOT HAVE from CRNA school. You clearly are interested in the easy path, and I firmly recommend you do not waste your time/money pursuing med school. You won't cut it. Go to CRNA school so that you can puff out your chest and pretend to be confident because 95% of your cases are healthy people.

Just know that, when something bad happens in the OR, and that sickly green fear tugs at your entrails when the vitals start to tank, there's someone who took the hard road that will bail you out.
 
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I'm taking prereqs right now and am breezing by them, but I have this doubt in my mind which I can't get rid of, is med school REALLY that much harder than becoming a RN->CRNA? You have far more opportunities as an MD, and the 2 year nursing program I have ahead of me is said to be no joke, and then there's 2-3 years of CRNA school, which is said to be as tough as going through an Anesthesiologist's residency if not worse.

Yes, medical school is harder because you spend way more time learning about medicine, not about nursing theories. CRNAs who went back to med school and finished anesthesia residency are quick to say that they didn't know how much they were missing. Dr. Finch who is the current president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists says "“I didn’t know how much I didn’t know", when she was talking about her time as a CRNA.
 
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all 4 years of nursing school can probably fit into one semester of medical school.

and don't say weird stuff like med school being the "most extreme and brutal experiences a *affluent* first-world country citizen can voluntarily have." that's just patently ridiculous and out of touch with the realities of the majority of Americans
Absolutely true. Adding affluent, I think we knew that was what he meant--well hopefully s/he doesn't think going to medical school is as hard as poverty, social injustice, etc
 
Absolutely true. Adding affluent, I think we knew that was what he meant--well hopefully s/he doesn't think going to medical school is as hard as poverty, social injustice, etc
Generally people don't undergo poverty and social injustice voluntarily.
 
Generally people don't undergo poverty and social injustice voluntarily.
You're right. I wasn't reading closely. Then your argument might be that @RogueUnicorn was wrong in their assessment, who maybe also missed that pivotal word. Or maybe there is something you had in mind that is both worse yet voluntary?
 
Hey OP :)
I'm currently in CRNA school, so maybe I could offer some advice to you.
First of all, the prerequisites for nursing school really aren't that hard, and if they were I would seriously question your ability to succeed in the CRNA program. The CRNA program that I am enrolled in strongly recommends that you take upper level organic chemistry, inorganic chemistry, biochemistry, anatomy, and take the GRE etc etc. While these aren't "required" in my program taking them greatly helps your chances of admission. While those classes also are doable, the program that I'm in demands that you get A's, and the Dean told me that if I was to take any upper division science classes and get a B that it would hurt me more than if I just simply didn't take it. n=1 there, but that's my experience. Taking these classes can be easier than the pre-med curriculum in that you usually take it one class at a time, but harder in some ways because you're usually working full time and juggling the responsibilities of a mortgage, family, working, and all that.

To answer your question, yes, med school is much harder than becoming a CRNA. The CRNA program is very difficult, but medical school is still a very different beast. As CRNAs we focus on a very narrow and very specific area of nursing while MDs have to know a much broader scope. With that being said, both are extremely gratifying and I'm sure many people would agree that their decided degree is worth it.

You need to ask yourself what your goals are and what you want from life. The thing that ultimately deterred me from medicine was the rigor of medical school, the overwhelming hours, and not being able to have your desired specialty be a guarantee after you graduate. I had my heart set on anesthesia, and the idea that I may match into specialties such as Family Medicine or Psychiatry was not a risk I wanted to take (and I'm not trying to down those specialties, it's just a personal decision, I have deep respect for those specialties). You will not be guaranteed to work in Anesthesia after you graduate, but the selling point for me was that even if I couldn't get into the CRNA program I could still choose from a huge variety of other specialties that I would love.

I think it comes down to how you envision yourself in the health care team. For me, I have always relished the idea of being "disposable" in the sense that when my shift is up, I'm out of there. There's no need for me to have to write orders, to take my work home, to have to wear a pager, to be pestered in the middle of the night because my patient in the hospital has a fever and needs meds etc. I do realize, however, that this may change a bit after I graduate, but my responsibility will still not be as great or demanding of my time as a physicians.

Lastly, I have no problem admitting that physicians know more than me and make the final call, and I also have no problem recognizing that that doesn't affect my worth as a nurse and future CRNA. Most physicians recognize my worth and treat me with respect. Yes, I will have autonomy as a CRNA, but ultimately I will also collaborate with physicians and if there is any question, their call will trump mine and I'm ok with that. As a CRNA you will have tremendous knowledge, and be a vital part of the healthcare team. You will be respected but you need to be okay with the fact that no matter how much you study the physician will still ultimately know more than you, and in the big scheme of things, that's just fine. We can handle many of the anesthesia situations, and if we can't then we just ask for help. If you're ok with that, then you can make an incredible team :)
 
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Famous people (Michael Jackson, Joan Rivers) have to die for the public to care about how they are getting their anesthesia.

Oh, the irony... Ummmmm... Your celebrity references were both killed by physicians, one of which was an anesthesiologist. So, you might want to pause before you go off on a tantrum and show your arrogant ignorance.

I'd like to inform the ignorant (defined as uninformed) about a little something that tends to be left out of the nurse anesthetist versus "physician anesthetist" disagreement. Historically, the only reason why the nurse anesthesia specialty even exists is because physicians shunned the task of providing anesthesia since they didn't want to work under the direction of another physician, the surgeon. Additionally, the anesthesia providers were paid significantly less money than the surgeon and they lacked the prestige of surgeons as well. So, physicians shucked the task of anesthesia off onto the nurses and Sisters of Religeous orders who refined and advanced anesthetic modalities during that time.

It wasn't until many decades later that physicians saw an opportunity to make money and gain prestige working as a physician anesthetist. This initiated the ongoing conflict of physicians trying to take back what they initially rejected and they began arrogantly trying to dominate a profession with which they previously wanted absolutely no involvement. Interestingly, most surgeons of that time advocated to keep their nurse anesthetist, while non-surgeon opportunist physicians sought to abolish the practice of nurse administered anesthesia entirely.

The story goes on and is quite interesting actually. For anyone interested, the book "Watchful Care" by Marianne Bankart outlines this history in great detail.

Also, I've never heard a single CRNA or AANA statement proposing to abolish the practice of physician anesthetists, nor have I heard arrogant claims from nurse anesthetist believing their profession to be more legitimate than that of a physician. One must consider the years of Acute Care experience that must be aquired prior to entering a Nurse Anesthesia program. Collectively, the years of study and clinical practice with focus on the specialty of anesthesia equilibrate with the type of experience a physician aquires in a medical program, which never includes anesthesia specialty courses and only the final three years of residency actually provide exposure to anesthesia training. Additionally, those final three years of residency don't include formalized coursework to develop and hoan their anesthesia skill.

Now, I'm not proposing that CRNA's and Anesthesiologists are the same or equals. They are different avenues of learning that lead to a similar level of expert anesthesia skill. However, the previously mentioned irony still remains and I'm certain that the ongoing studies demonstrating equal patient outcomes from both types of Anesthesia providers will support the continued movement towards universal autonomous practice for Nurse Anesthesia providers. The Doctor of Nursing Practice (DNP) will be leveling the "educational" tantrum that some, not all, Anesthesiologists proclaim as well.

Unfortunately for some, Karma is at play here and will return that egoic energy to where it originally came. To the original post curiously seeking clarity of life paths and choices, I wish you the best on your journey and I'm certain you will arrive at the perfect and ideal career destination intended for YOU. I encourage you to continue forward with curiosity in all areas of your life. Be well...
 
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Hey OP :)
I'm currently in CRNA school, so maybe I could offer some advice to you.
First of all, the prerequisites for nursing school really aren't that hard, and if they were I would seriously question your ability to succeed in the CRNA program. The CRNA program that I am enrolled in strongly recommends that you take upper level organic chemistry, inorganic chemistry, biochemistry, anatomy, and take the GRE etc etc. While these aren't "required" in my program taking them greatly helps your chances of admission. While those classes also are doable, the program that I'm in demands that you get A's, and the Dean told me that if I was to take any upper division science classes and get a B that it would hurt me more than if I just simply didn't take it. n=1 there, but that's my experience. Taking these classes can be easier than the pre-med curriculum in that you usually take it one class at a time, but harder in some ways because you're usually working full time and juggling the responsibilities of a mortgage, family, working, and all that.

To answer your question, yes, med school is much harder than becoming a CRNA. The CRNA program is very difficult, but medical school is still a very different beast. As CRNAs we focus on a very narrow and very specific area of nursing while MDs have to know a much broader scope. With that being said, both are extremely gratifying and I'm sure many people would agree that their decided degree is worth it.

You need to ask yourself what your goals are and what you want from life. The thing that ultimately deterred me from medicine was the rigor of medical school, the overwhelming hours, and not being able to have your desired specialty be a guarantee after you graduate. I had my heart set on anesthesia, and the idea that I may match into specialties such as Family Medicine or Psychiatry was not a risk I wanted to take (and I'm not trying to down those specialties, it's just a personal decision, I have deep respect for those specialties). You will not be guaranteed to work in Anesthesia after you graduate, but the selling point for me was that even if I couldn't get into the CRNA program I could still choose from a huge variety of other specialties that I would love.

I think it comes down to how you envision yourself in the health care team. For me, I have always relished the idea of being "disposable" in the sense that when my shift is up, I'm out of there. There's no need for me to have to write orders, to take my work home, to have to wear a pager, to be pestered in the middle of the night because my patient in the hospital has a fever and needs meds etc. I do realize, however, that this may change a bit after I graduate, but my responsibility will still not be as great or demanding of my time as a physicians.

Lastly, I have no problem admitting that physicians know more than me and make the final call, and I also have no problem recognizing that that doesn't affect my worth as a nurse and future CRNA. Most physicians recognize my worth and treat me with respect. Yes, I will have autonomy as a CRNA, but ultimately I will also collaborate with physicians and if there is any question, their call will trump mine and I'm ok with that. As a CRNA you will have tremendous knowledge, and be a vital part of the healthcare team. You will be respected but you need to be okay with the fact that no matter how much you study the physician will still ultimately know more than you, and in the big scheme of things, that's just fine. We can handle many of the anesthesia situations, and if we can't then we just ask for help. If you're ok with that, then you can make an incredible team :)
You sound like one of those awesome CRNAs ;)


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile app
 
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Hey OP :)
I'm currently in CRNA school, so maybe I could offer some advice to you.
First of all, the prerequisites for nursing school really aren't that hard, and if they were I would seriously question your ability to succeed in the CRNA program. The CRNA program that I am enrolled in strongly recommends that you take upper level organic chemistry, inorganic chemistry, biochemistry, anatomy, and take the GRE etc etc. While these aren't "required" in my program taking them greatly helps your chances of admission. While those classes also are doable, the program that I'm in demands that you get A's, and the Dean told me that if I was to take any upper division science classes and get a B that it would hurt me more than if I just simply didn't take it. n=1 there, but that's my experience. Taking these classes can be easier than the pre-med curriculum in that you usually take it one class at a time, but harder in some ways because you're usually working full time and juggling the responsibilities of a mortgage, family, working, and all that.

To answer your question, yes, med school is much harder than becoming a CRNA. The CRNA program is very difficult, but medical school is still a very different beast. As CRNAs we focus on a very narrow and very specific area of nursing while MDs have to know a much broader scope. With that being said, both are extremely gratifying and I'm sure many people would agree that their decided degree is worth it.

You need to ask yourself what your goals are and what you want from life. The thing that ultimately deterred me from medicine was the rigor of medical school, the overwhelming hours, and not being able to have your desired specialty be a guarantee after you graduate. I had my heart set on anesthesia, and the idea that I may match into specialties such as Family Medicine or Psychiatry was not a risk I wanted to take (and I'm not trying to down those specialties, it's just a personal decision, I have deep respect for those specialties). You will not be guaranteed to work in Anesthesia after you graduate, but the selling point for me was that even if I couldn't get into the CRNA program I could still choose from a huge variety of other specialties that I would love.

I think it comes down to how you envision yourself in the health care team. For me, I have always relished the idea of being "disposable" in the sense that when my shift is up, I'm out of there. There's no need for me to have to write orders, to take my work home, to have to wear a pager, to be pestered in the middle of the night because my patient in the hospital has a fever and needs meds etc. I do realize, however, that this may change a bit after I graduate, but my responsibility will still not be as great or demanding of my time as a physicians.

Lastly, I have no problem admitting that physicians know more than me and make the final call, and I also have no problem recognizing that that doesn't affect my worth as a nurse and future CRNA. Most physicians recognize my worth and treat me with respect. Yes, I will have autonomy as a CRNA, but ultimately I will also collaborate with physicians and if there is any question, their call will trump mine and I'm ok with that. As a CRNA you will have tremendous knowledge, and be a vital part of the healthcare team. You will be respected but you need to be okay with the fact that no matter how much you study the physician will still ultimately know more than you, and in the big scheme of things, that's just fine. We can handle many of the anesthesia situations, and if we can't then we just ask for help. If you're ok with that, then you can make an incredible team :)
Accurate and nicely put. Looks like a great career path.
 
Oh, the irony... Ummmmm... Your celebrity references were both killed by physicians, one of which was an anesthesiologist. So, you might want to pause before you go off on a tantrum and show your arrogant ignorance.

I'd like to inform the ignorant (defined as uninformed) about a little something that tends to be left out of the nurse anesthetist versus "physician anesthetist" disagreement. Historically, the only reason why the nurse anesthesia specialty even exists is because physicians shunned the task of providing anesthesia since they didn't want to work under the direction of another physician, the surgeon. Additionally, the anesthesia providers were paid significantly less money than the surgeon and they lacked the prestige of surgeons as well. So, physicians shucked the task of anesthesia off onto the nurses and Sisters of Religeous orders who refined and advanced anesthetic modalities during that time.

It wasn't until many decades later that physicians saw an opportunity to make money and gain prestige working as a physician anesthetist. This initiated the ongoing conflict of physicians trying to take back what they initially rejected and they began arrogantly trying to dominate a profession with which they previously wanted absolutely no involvement. Interestingly, most surgeons of that time advocated to keep their nurse anesthetist, while non-surgeon opportunist physicians sought to abolish the practice of nurse administered anesthesia entirely.

The story goes on and is quite interesting actually. For anyone interested, the book "Watchful Care" by Marianne Bankart outlines this history in great detail.

Also, I've never heard a single CRNA or AANA statement proposing to abolish the practice of physician anesthetists, nor have I heard arrogant claims from nurse anesthetist believing their profession to be more legitimate than that of a physician. One must consider the years of Acute Care experience that must be aquired prior to entering a Nurse Anesthesia program. Collectively, the years of study and clinical practice with focus on the specialty of anesthesia equilibrate with the type of experience a physician aquires in a medical program, which never includes anesthesia specialty courses and only the final three years of residency actually provide exposure to anesthesia training. Additionally, those final three years of residency don't include formalized coursework to develop and hoan their anesthesia skill.

Now, I'm not proposing that CRNA's and Anesthesiologists are the same or equals. They are different avenues of learning that lead to a similar level of expert anesthesia skill. However, the previously mentioned irony still remains and I'm certain that the ongoing studies demonstrating equal patient outcomes from both types of Anesthesia providers will support the continued movement towards universal autonomous practice for Nurse Anesthesia providers. The Doctor of Nursing Practice (DNP) will be leveling the "educational" tantrum that some, not all, Anesthesiologists proclaim as well.

Unfortunately for some, Karma is at play here and will return that egoic energy to where it originally came. To the original post curiously seeking clarity of life paths and choices, I wish you the best on your journey and I'm certain you will arrive at the perfect and ideal career destination intended for YOU. I encourage you to continue forward with curiosity in all areas of your life. Be well...

You're delusional. There are so many holes in your argument that it is overwhelming for me to disillusion you on a strict time budget. So here are two points that stood out that I will address quickly:

1. The minimum requirement to get into CRNA school is 1 year of ICU experience. If you gained anything above a 3.3-3.4 GPA in nursing school with higher than a meager 50th percentile in the GRE, that one year experience is sufficient to get you accepted to many schools. Please tell me more about how 32 hours a week in an ICU setting = the rigorous 4 years of medical education (2 of which years being primarily clinical rotations involving over 40 hours a week)

2. The DNP differs from the Master's degree only in that it increases number of "nursing theory," "nursing leadership," and other irrelevant fluff classes. Last I checked, a class with the take home message of "nurses can be leaders too" does not offer any depth of anesthetic knowledge or any sort of medical knowledge for that matter.

Stop drinking the kool aid. Your spoon fed arguments are weak and full of holes.
 
Oh, the irony... Ummmmm... Your celebrity references were both killed by physicians, one of which was an anesthesiologist. So, you might want to pause before you go off on a tantrum and show your arrogant ignorance.

I'd like to inform the ignorant (defined as uninformed) about a little something that tends to be left out of the nurse anesthetist versus "physician anesthetist" disagreement. Historically, the only reason why the nurse anesthesia specialty even exists is because physicians shunned the task of providing anesthesia since they didn't want to work under the direction of another physician, the surgeon. Additionally, the anesthesia providers were paid significantly less money than the surgeon and they lacked the prestige of surgeons as well. So, physicians shucked the task of anesthesia off onto the nurses and Sisters of Religeous orders who refined and advanced anesthetic modalities during that time.

It wasn't until many decades later that physicians saw an opportunity to make money and gain prestige working as a physician anesthetist. This initiated the ongoing conflict of physicians trying to take back what they initially rejected and they began arrogantly trying to dominate a profession with which they previously wanted absolutely no involvement. Interestingly, most surgeons of that time advocated to keep their nurse anesthetist, while non-surgeon opportunist physicians sought to abolish the practice of nurse administered anesthesia entirely.

The story goes on and is quite interesting actually. For anyone interested, the book "Watchful Care" by Marianne Bankart outlines this history in great detail.

Also, I've never heard a single CRNA or AANA statement proposing to abolish the practice of physician anesthetists, nor have I heard arrogant claims from nurse anesthetist believing their profession to be more legitimate than that of a physician. One must consider the years of Acute Care experience that must be aquired prior to entering a Nurse Anesthesia program. Collectively, the years of study and clinical practice with focus on the specialty of anesthesia equilibrate with the type of experience a physician aquires in a medical program, which never includes anesthesia specialty courses and only the final three years of residency actually provide exposure to anesthesia training. Additionally, those final three years of residency don't include formalized coursework to develop and hoan their anesthesia skill.

Now, I'm not proposing that CRNA's and Anesthesiologists are the same or equals. They are different avenues of learning that lead to a similar level of expert anesthesia skill. However, the previously mentioned irony still remains and I'm certain that the ongoing studies demonstrating equal patient outcomes from both types of Anesthesia providers will support the continued movement towards universal autonomous practice for Nurse Anesthesia providers. The Doctor of Nursing Practice (DNP) will be leveling the "educational" tantrum that some, not all, Anesthesiologists proclaim as well.

Unfortunately for some, Karma is at play here and will return that egoic energy to where it originally came. To the original post curiously seeking clarity of life paths and choices, I wish you the best on your journey and I'm certain you will arrive at the perfect and ideal career destination intended for YOU. I encourage you to continue forward with curiosity in all areas of your life. Be well...

Nice necrobump.
 
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Oh, the irony... Ummmmm... Your celebrity references were both killed by physicians, one of which was an anesthesiologist. So, you might want to pause before you go off on a tantrum and show your arrogant ignorance.

I'd like to inform the ignorant (defined as uninformed) about a little something that tends to be left out of the nurse anesthetist versus "physician anesthetist" disagreement. Historically, the only reason why the nurse anesthesia specialty even exists is because physicians shunned the task of providing anesthesia since they didn't want to work under the direction of another physician, the surgeon. Additionally, the anesthesia providers were paid significantly less money than the surgeon and they lacked the prestige of surgeons as well. So, physicians shucked the task of anesthesia off onto the nurses and Sisters of Religeous orders who refined and advanced anesthetic modalities during that time.

It wasn't until many decades later that physicians saw an opportunity to make money and gain prestige working as a physician anesthetist. This initiated the ongoing conflict of physicians trying to take back what they initially rejected and they began arrogantly trying to dominate a profession with which they previously wanted absolutely no involvement. Interestingly, most surgeons of that time advocated to keep their nurse anesthetist, while non-surgeon opportunist physicians sought to abolish the practice of nurse administered anesthesia entirely.

The story goes on and is quite interesting actually. For anyone interested, the book "Watchful Care" by Marianne Bankart outlines this history in great detail.

Also, I've never heard a single CRNA or AANA statement proposing to abolish the practice of physician anesthetists, nor have I heard arrogant claims from nurse anesthetist believing their profession to be more legitimate than that of a physician. One must consider the years of Acute Care experience that must be aquired prior to entering a Nurse Anesthesia program. Collectively, the years of study and clinical practice with focus on the specialty of anesthesia equilibrate with the type of experience a physician aquires in a medical program, which never includes anesthesia specialty courses and only the final three years of residency actually provide exposure to anesthesia training. Additionally, those final three years of residency don't include formalized coursework to develop and hoan their anesthesia skill.

Now, I'm not proposing that CRNA's and Anesthesiologists are the same or equals. They are different avenues of learning that lead to a similar level of expert anesthesia skill. However, the previously mentioned irony still remains and I'm certain that the ongoing studies demonstrating equal patient outcomes from both types of Anesthesia providers will support the continued movement towards universal autonomous practice for Nurse Anesthesia providers. The Doctor of Nursing Practice (DNP) will be leveling the "educational" tantrum that some, not all, Anesthesiologists proclaim as well.

Unfortunately for some, Karma is at play here and will return that egoic energy to where it originally came. To the original post curiously seeking clarity of life paths and choices, I wish you the best on your journey and I'm certain you will arrive at the perfect and ideal career destination intended for YOU. I encourage you to continue forward with curiosity in all areas of your life. Be well...

Yeah and physicians originally left surgery to barbers so I don't see what your point is; just because someone did something first doesn't mean they're anywhere near as good at it. CRNAs are decent at their job, but their specific job is nowhere near as difficult as an anesthesiologist.
 
Hey guys I have my heart set on working in healthcare and took a few years off after college because I was scared of what med school would entail. I have lots of passions and interests and am wary of spending my best years in class/studying 80-100 hrs a week. I don't know from all the stories I hear, med school seems akin to joining the army, as in one of the most extreme and brutal experiences a first-world country citizen can voluntarily have.

I felt like I found a middle ground in becoming a CRNA, in that you would be working in the medical field with a decent lifestyle with a growing level of independence if the AANA has their way. I'm taking prereqs right now and am breezing by them, but I have this doubt in my mind which I can't get rid of, is med school REALLY that much harder than becoming a RN->CRNA? You have far more opportunities as an MD, and the 2 year nursing program I have ahead of me is said to be no joke, and then there's 2-3 years of CRNA school, which is said to be as tough as going through an Anesthesiologist's residency if not worse.

Of course, in between I would be working as an ICU RN ~40 hrs a week for 1-3 years, which is a breeze compared to anything in med school. But if I pursue a specialty with a light residency such as Psychiatry, I would be working the last ~3 years around 40 hours a week as well. So the main deciding factor, assuming I'm attracted to specialty with a light residency and I am praying this is the case, is how much more difficult are the first 2 years of medical school compared to 2 years of nursing school?

Also, yes, I know the distinctions b/w nurses and doctors, I've had plenty of volunteer hours working with nurses and have shadowed doctors.

You can also go to AA school for about two years (I think most programs are 27 continuous months) and do exactly what a CRNA does for the same pay and hours. I work in an OR that staffs about 7 AAs and 5 CRNAs on any given day and they have the exact same responsibilities and comparable pay (based on seniority, hours, etc obviously).
 
Oh, the irony... Ummmmm... Your celebrity references were both killed by physicians, one of which was an anesthesiologist. So, you might want to pause before you go off on a tantrum and show your arrogant ignorance.

I'd like to inform the ignorant (defined as uninformed) about a little something that tends to be left out of the nurse anesthetist versus "physician anesthetist" disagreement. Historically, the only reason why the nurse anesthesia specialty even exists is because physicians shunned the task of providing anesthesia since they didn't want to work under the direction of another physician, the surgeon. Additionally, the anesthesia providers were paid significantly less money than the surgeon and they lacked the prestige of surgeons as well. So, physicians shucked the task of anesthesia off onto the nurses and Sisters of Religeous orders who refined and advanced anesthetic modalities during that time.

It wasn't until many decades later that physicians saw an opportunity to make money and gain prestige working as a physician anesthetist. This initiated the ongoing conflict of physicians trying to take back what they initially rejected and they began arrogantly trying to dominate a profession with which they previously wanted absolutely no involvement. Interestingly, most surgeons of that time advocated to keep their nurse anesthetist, while non-surgeon opportunist physicians sought to abolish the practice of nurse administered anesthesia entirely.

The story goes on and is quite interesting actually. For anyone interested, the book "Watchful Care" by Marianne Bankart outlines this history in great detail.

Also, I've never heard a single CRNA or AANA statement proposing to abolish the practice of physician anesthetists, nor have I heard arrogant claims from nurse anesthetist believing their profession to be more legitimate than that of a physician. One must consider the years of Acute Care experience that must be aquired prior to entering a Nurse Anesthesia program. Collectively, the years of study and clinical practice with focus on the specialty of anesthesia equilibrate with the type of experience a physician aquires in a medical program, which never includes anesthesia specialty courses and only the final three years of residency actually provide exposure to anesthesia training. Additionally, those final three years of residency don't include formalized coursework to develop and hoan their anesthesia skill.

Now, I'm not proposing that CRNA's and Anesthesiologists are the same or equals. They are different avenues of learning that lead to a similar level of expert anesthesia skill. However, the previously mentioned irony still remains and I'm certain that the ongoing studies demonstrating equal patient outcomes from both types of Anesthesia providers will support the continued movement towards universal autonomous practice for Nurse Anesthesia providers. The Doctor of Nursing Practice (DNP) will be leveling the "educational" tantrum that some, not all, Anesthesiologists proclaim as well.

Unfortunately for some, Karma is at play here and will return that egoic energy to where it originally came. To the original post curiously seeking clarity of life paths and choices, I wish you the best on your journey and I'm certain you will arrive at the perfect and ideal career destination intended for YOU. I encourage you to continue forward with curiosity in all areas of your life. Be well...


You are absolutely adorable. Keep thinking you're my equal while you do those "nursing theory" courses that are equivalent to my 1,000s of hours of actual clinical training in the OR doing complex cases. Just adorable.
 
Oh, the irony... Ummmmm... Your celebrity references were both killed by physicians, one of which was an anesthesiologist. So, you might want to pause before you go off on a tantrum and show your arrogant ignorance.
I think you're missing the point here if you think the poster didn't know that they were doctors. The point, as I saw it, was that the public isn't generally swayed by reasoned arguments or studies. The public is generally swayed by emotions from single big events, even if they are outliers. So regardless of the truth with regards to CRNAs vs anesthesiologists, a celebrity death at the hands of a CRNA would be a big deal.

One must consider the years of Acute Care experience that must be aquired prior to entering a Nurse Anesthesia program. Collectively, the years of study and clinical practice with focus on the specialty of anesthesia equilibrate with the type of experience a physician aquires in a medical program, which never includes anesthesia specialty courses and only the final three years of residency actually provide exposure to anesthesia training. Additionally, those final three years of residency don't include formalized coursework to develop and hoan their anesthesia skill.
It's true that med students don't have to take anesthesia. I'm in my 5th year of residency and have never been on an anesthesia service. However, no one does an anesthesia residency without having done anesthesia rotations in med school (at least 1, but I bet most have done more).

On top of that, doctors learn a lot more in the preclinical years and even on other services that are relevant to the practice of anesthesiology. I also don't know that you can direct compare the number of years of training between CRNA and anesthesiology as the quality of training in those years differ.
 
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