DNP (doctor of nursing practice) vs. DO/MD

[Oxer45]

I don't have a BB gun but, but I can really surprise you with a .22, especially with seven 25 round mags.

A .22 cal? Isn't that called rat-shot cause its used to shoot rodents. A trauma attending told me it takes about eleven .22 cal bullets to kill a man--IF all the shots hits the chest. You may be better of throwing your knives at someone. It might do more damage. Why don't you man up and get a rifle with real bullets.

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[jwk]

A .22 cal? Isn't that called rat-shot cause its used to shoot rodents. A trauma attending told me it takes about eleven .22 cal bullets to kill a man--IF all the shots hits the chest. You may be better of throwing your knives at someone. It might do more damage. Why don't you man up and get a rifle with real bullets.

Your trauma attending must not see very much trauma.

One of my most memorable cases was a 12 yr old boy, shot in the chest with a pellet gun. Right between the ribs and into the LV. He had arrested in the ER and would have died if a general surgeon hadn't walked through the ER on his way out of the hospital after making rounds and cracked his chest. The kid walked out of the hospital a few days later.

Eleven 22's to kill someone - what an idiot.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Eleven 22's to kill someone - what an idiot.

Agreed.

A newbie hunter could do it in half of that, let alone someone who actually is skilled to handle a weapon.

 

[Valadi]

This thread began in '06, died after a few weeks, and was bumped in '09. From that time people have been posting regularly. I see also that some of the same people who were posting back then are still going.

One thing we can all agree on is that being DNP or DO/MD doesn't make you good at ending arguments.

 

[zenman]

A .22 cal? Isn't that called rat-shot cause its used to shoot rodents. A trauma attending told me it takes about eleven .22 cal bullets to kill a man--IF all the shots hits the chest. You may be better of throwing your knives at someone. It might do more damage. Why don't you man up and get a rifle with real bullets.

To bad you have to listen to a trauma resident while I used to work in a Level I, ha, ha! I've shot almost everything in the ARMY so don't tell me to man-up. Do ya want to be skilled and know where to shoot someone or just try to hit em anywhere with a .45? A .22 pistol is great for brainstem shots and no one on a busy street will pay any attention to the "puff." I met one fellow recently who had a .22 go into his upper arm, through his chest, breaking a rib, and ended up ripping through his liver. Good thing he was close to the hospital.

 

[zenman]

Agreed.

A newbie hunter could do it in half of that, let alone someone who actually is skilled to handle a weapon.

Best avatar ever BTW.

 

[zenman]

This thread began in '06, died after a few weeks, and was bumped in '09. From that time people have been posting regularly. I see also that some of the same people who were posting back then are still going.

One thing we can all agree on is that being DNP or DO/MD doesn't make you good at ending arguments.

Perhaps a little help to make it more interesting.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Best avatar ever BTW.

Thanks!

I've been a Dr. Paul supporter for years...too bad the average American is too dumb to understand why they should vote for him.

 

[deleted432032]

Hello! I'm a post-bac student w/ a Master's in health promotion and a couple of years of hospital work. I decided I want to go to medical school and have been taking the pre-reqs. I've learned a lot about the growing filed of advanced practice nursing and of direct-entry doctoral programs in which one does not need an RN/BSN to be admitted and can earn an MSN and DNP. Can anyone give me more information about the different roles NP's (nurse practitioners) have compared to MD/DOs, their level of autonomy (more/less flexible), salaries, and what their collaboration is like with other healthcare professionals?

Thanks!!

Here we go again

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

Thanks!

I've been a Dr. Paul supporter for years...too bad the average American is too dumb to understand why they should vote for him.

oh ffs

 

[zenman]

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/05/why-nurses-need-more-authority/256798/

 

[plauto]

:

Thanks!

I've been a Dr. Paul supporter for years...too bad the average American is too dumb to understand why they should vote for him.

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/05/why-nurses-need-more-authority/256798/

Interesting quote from the article:

"The Federal Trade Commission may provide a further nudge. It has weighed in on a handful of states' efforts to restrict nursing's scope, finding cause for anti-competitive practices and, in some cases, evidence that the restrictive laws protect professional interests rather than consumers."

And here I thought most physicians were fans of the free market and competition...

 

[xanthomondo]

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/05/why-nurses-need-more-authority/256798/

Former chairman and CEO of a big insurance company for six years... I'm sure he has the nation's best interest in mind when writing these articles

 

[acesup123]

I think CNAs need more authority so they can do what nurses do for half the cost.

 

[24IdaFire]

I think SDN should do like they do over allnurses.

They immediately permaban anyone who doesn't support NP expansion, we should permaban those who support it.

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

Are you kidding? Loads of people on allnurses are against NP independent practice, it's a debate that comes up all the time. Allnurses is a pit, but not for that reason...

 

[deleted432032]

Are you kidding? Loads of people on allnurses are against NP independent practice, it's a debate that comes up all the time. Allnurses is a pit, but not for that reason...

That's not the impression I get when I read threads over there. Nursing lingo must be different than average person lingo

 

[zenman]

I think CNAs need more authority so they can do what nurses do for half the cost.

Won't work. My hospital just got rid of a lot of support people, ie, CNAs, unit clerks, and people whose job was to answer the phones in the ED. Now, I've seen over-worked people just get up and walk off the job due to the stress. I guess admin doesn't realize one RN with a bunch of smart CNAs can handle a lot of patients.

 

[24IdaFire]

Are you kidding? Loads of people on allnurses are against NP independent practice, it's a debate that comes up all the time. Allnurses is a pit, but not for that reason...

Literally got permabaned after my first post. I repeated what acesup123 said about expanding CNAs scope of practice. Their reason was "trollish" behavior.

 

[sanityonleave]

Literally got permabaned after my first post. I repeated what acesup123 said about expanding CNAs scope of practice. Their reason was "trollish" behavior.

In fairness, that's a pretty inflammatory argument (and certainly not the best / most logical argument against expansion) -- and for that to be your first post, I can see why it looked like you were a troll. That said, banning after one post is much harsher than the mods around here.

I did want to comment though -- whatever the prevailing vibe happens to be on allnurses (I purposely avoid places like that), it certainly doesn't reflect the opinion of all NPs. I have a close family member who has been a primary care NP since 1996. She was called by the board of nursing in her state asking for her to lend support to a legislative measure to expand NP independent practice as one of the "longest standing and most experienced NPs in this state" -- and she told them to go shove it up their ass (probably in a slightly nicer way, but still). As did two of the other three NPs employed in the large multispecialty clinic she works in (the only exception was the newgrad NP with the least experience, ha). She told them that despite 15 years of experience as an NP and having 10+ years of nursing experience before that (she's almost 60), she didn't feel that she should be practicing independently of a physician, and she certainly didn't think the new grad nurses had any business doing it.

Just wanted to throw in a story to show that there are certainly NPs who aren't trying to expand their scope of practice and recognize their limitations. Just like lots of things on these sort of message boards, there's a huge selection bias.

 

[Rop]

Nurses have nothing to fear from doctors. Loopholes in state law allow the state nursing boards to define whatever they want as "nursing" and as soon as they do that the docs cant touch them.

A state nursing board could define surgery as the practice of "nursing" and there's not a damn thing any state medical board could do about it.

My prediction is that the first step after DNP will be DNP residency programs, tremendously weak watered down versions of what real doctors go thru. After that, you will see them start expanding the nursing scope laws. In less than 20 years, we will see at least one state nursing board write surgery into their scope of practice, defining it as "nursing" practice and ergo immune from any medical board interference.

PAs are in a different boat. They are regulated by state medical boards. In order to escape that, they would have to convince state legislatures that they dont practice medicine, but instead practice something else.

This is very much foreseeable in the near future. I believe there could come a time where very few MD/DOs practice primary care because DNPs, NP, & other types of Nurse Practicioners will have equal and adequate training along with absolute autonomy (the amount years training and the salary may not be worth it...especially with the rising astronomical medical school debt) ...perhaps in other specialties also.

Also, about the Dr title read here:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Nursing_Practice

"The American Association of Colleges of Nursing and six other professional nursing organizations contend that the term "doctor" is an appropriate term to describe a Doctor of Nursing Practice [in a clinical setting].

"The DNP is intended to prepare a registered nurse to become an independent primary care provider. Furthermore, the DNP is intended to be a parity degree with other health care doctorates such as psychology, medicine, and dentistry."

With a shortage of Physicians, particularly Primary Care and the implementation of Obamacare the asthphalt is slowly drying. The U.S needs health care providers to be trained, quickly, and put out there to do what they do.

 

[cheruka]

I admit to only reading the first page of this Loong thread. Just wanted to say that while other ppl with PhDs are calling themselves Dr. so and so, they do not have to worry about other types of doctors within engineering, physics etc. Since we have real practcing doctors in medicine, it makes it real sneaky to introduce DNP. At least the professors etc in other fields have a lot of knowledge. I am not sure DNPs are taught extreme science or extreme clinical skills.

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

I admit to only reading the first page of this Loong thread. Just wanted to say that while other ppl with PhDs are calling themselves Dr. so and so, they do not have to worry about other types of doctors within engineering, physics etc. Since we have real practcing doctors in medicine, it makes it real sneaky to introduce DNP. At least the professors etc in other fields have a lot of knowledge. I am not sure DNPs are taught extreme science or extreme clinical skills.

extreme science? sign me up!

 

[deleted87716]

extreme science? sign me up!

 

[sarjasy]

No, it's true. I just got off the phone with my NP program adviser and he confirmed that indeed we WILL NOT be taught womb swapping. I'm so disappointed.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Also, about the Dr title read here:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Nursing_Practice

I was surprised to read this on that wiki page:

In contrast, the level of training between physicians board certified in an area of specialty and a DNP working as a primary care provider is not intended to be comparable. A physician will typically have 4 years of undergraduate education, 4 years of medical school, and 3 to 8 years in paid residency (e.g. family practice, internal medicine, radiology, neurosurgery, etc.). Physicians often continue by doing a subspecialty or fellowship (e.g. cardiology, nephrology, oncology, etc.). In contrast a typical DNP will have 4 years of undergraduate education, experience as a registered nurse, and 4 years of advanced practice education (e.g. women's health, pediatrics, anesthesia, etc.).[17] Additionally, the prolonged education of physicians through specialty residencies has compounded primary care shortages in the United States[18][19][20] and therefore the DNP offers a practical solution with its primary care emphasis and streamlined clinical focus.[21][22]

Though towards the end the author conflates the reason(s) for a shortage of primary care physicians, blaming "speciality residencies" and the emergence of the DNP as good enough reasons for the continued expansion/promotion of the DNP. There is always that pay thing....being able to make more money in other specialities and not having to fight as much for your piece of the pie.

 

[bestfirstcoffee]

FYI, DNP folks can and will call themselves doctor. There is no regulation barring that. I agree it is misleading and wrong, but will happen.

How is it misleading and wrong if someone who's a PhD can call themselves doctor? A doctor is not solely a medical doctor. We're only allowed to be called Doctor because we gain a " Doctorate of Medicine". A Doctor of Nursing Practice is not a clinical bedside nurse, but a higher mid-level practitioner who specialized in a particular speciality. I see these answers are covered in nursing bias. I realize this is an old thread, but just incase someone looks this up I want you to have the real unbiased information from someone who went from RN to MD ( candidate). This is disappointing to see such obvious hate towards nurses.

 

[foreverLaur]

It is misleading because our society equates doctor = physician in a clinical setting. It was found that a lot of doctorally prepared advanced practice nurses would not making it clear to the patient that they were advanced practice nurses and not physicians and that is misleading. Yes, they do have the right to call themselves Doctor, but they need to make it VERY VERY clear that they are nurses, not physicians. Nurses, even at the DNP level, do not have anywhere close to the education and knowledge that a MD or DO has. And this is coming from me - an expired BSN prepared RN in a BSN-DNP program. To my patients, I will always just go by my first name - that's who I am. The Dr. is reserved for the physicians in a clinical setting, IMO. There's no need to confuse a patient because I want to feel all high and mighty over my degree.

How is it misleading and wrong if someone who's a PhD can call themselves doctor? A doctor is not solely a medical doctor. We're only allowed to be called Doctor because we gain a " Doctorate of Medicine". A Doctor of Nursing Practice is not a clinical bedside nurse, but a higher mid-level practitioner who specialized in a particular speciality. I see these answers are covered in nursing bias. I realize this is an old thread, but just incase someone looks this up I want you to have the real unbiased information from someone who went from RN to MD ( candidate). This is disappointing to see such obvious hate towards nurses.

 

[NYCGuy86]

It is misleading because our society equates doctor = physician in a clinical setting. It was found that a lot of doctorally prepared advanced practice nurses would not making it clear to the patient that they were advanced practice nurses and not physicians and that is misleading. Yes, they do have the right to call themselves Doctor, but they need to make it VERY VERY clear that they are nurses, not physicians. Nurses, even at the DNP level, do not have anywhere close to the education and knowledge that a MD or DO has. And this is coming from me - an expired BSN prepared RN in a BSN-DNP program. To my patients, I will always just go by my first name - that's who I am. The Dr. is reserved for the physicians in a clinical setting, IMO. There's no need to confuse a patient because I want to feel all high and mighty over my degree.

I don't think people want to feel "high and mighty". They are merely asking to be referred to by their earned title. I see nothing wrong with someone saying "Hi, I'm Dr. ___, I'm the nurse practitioner/pharmacist/whatever", but that's just me.

You say that "it was found that a lot of doctorally prepared advanced practice nurses would not making (sic) it clear to the patient that they were advanced practice nurses and not physicians". I'm curious, who found this out?

 

[foreverLaur]

You say that "it was found that a lot of doctorally prepared advanced practice nurses would not making (sic) it clear to the patient that they were advanced practice nurses and not physicians". I'm curious, who found this out?

I have family that is legal council for a large hospital system in this country. A lawsuit came up a while ago from a patient who sued because Dr. Jane was actually a NP, not physician, and the patient said this was unclear. In the course of the lawsuit, they discovered ALOT of similar claims across the country. Even when the phrase "I'm Dr. Jane, the nurse practitioner" was stated, majority of patients still thought Dr. Jane was a physician.

 

[NYCGuy86]

I have family that is legal council for a large hospital system in this country. A lawsuit came up a while ago from a patient who sued because Dr. Jane was actually a NP, not physician, and the patient said this was unclear. In the course of the lawsuit, they discovered ALOT of similar claims across the country. Even when the phrase "I'm Dr. Jane, the nurse practitioner" was stated, majority of patients still thought Dr. Jane was a physician.

I see, interesting. So is there anywhere where we can read about this besides your anecdote? Has there been an actual study done on this? I'm specifically interested in your claim that "It was found that a lot of doctorally prepared advanced practice nurses would not making it clear to the patient that they were advanced practice nurses and not physicians and that is misleading." If the NP stated that "I'm Dr. Jane, the nurse practitioner", then they did indeed make it clear that they are a nurse practitioner.

Also, I do hope people suing in such cases don't really think they have a case. If the NP clearly identified himself/herself as an NP (as you said, "I'm Dr. Jane, the nurse practitioner"), I fail to see how they would have a case, since the NP quite obviously identified herself, and did not misrepresent herself as a physician. There was no obfuscation. Again, I see nothing wrong with professionals using their earned titles/credentials, as long as they appropriately identify themselves as to their professional role (I would be in favor of an NP stating "I'm Dr. ___, the nurse practitioner on the cardiology team", but would not be in favor of an NP stating "I'm Dr. ____ from cardiology"). Again, that's just me. You are certainly welcome to refer to yourself by your first name, or whatever you are comfortable with, as an NP (nothing wrong with that either). I just don't see a problem with a DNP using their earned title of "doctor" and identifying themselves as a nurse practitioner.

 

[foreverLaur]

To your point... why should the NP have to identify himself or herself as NP? What is wrong with Dr. Jane? Why does a physician not have to identify himself or herself as Dr. Bob, the physician, but you claim a NP has to identify as a NP? That seems unfair as both have earned the title of doctor if that's the point you're going with.

And it was not a formal study. It was extensive research done by the hospital's staff regarding the lawsuit, which was settled outside of court.

 

[NYCGuy86]

To your point... why should the NP have to identify himself or herself as NP? What is wrong with Dr. Jane? Why does a physician not have to identify himself or herself as Dr. Bob, the physician, but you claim a NP has to identify as a NP? That seems unfair as both have earned the title of doctor if that's the point you're going with.

I never claimed that a physician does not have to identify himself. Indeed, a basic element of patient rights is that they have the right to know who everyone is on the team(s) that is/are taking care of them. So, everyone, whether physician, nurse, nurse practitioner, respiratory therapist, CNA, whatever, should be identifying who they are when they introduce themselves to the patient. As I originally stated, I personally am ok with someone stating, "Hi, I'm Dr. ___, I'm the nurse practitioner/pharmacist/whatever", and that "whatever" naturally includes other professionals with doctorates, including physicians.

And it was not a formal study. It was extensive research done by the hospital's staff regarding the lawsuit, which was settled outside of court.

Ok. When I read your statement that "It was found that a lot of doctorally prepared advanced practice nurses would not making it clear to the patient that they were advanced practice nurses and not physicians and that is misleading," I naturally began to wonder who found this out, based on what evidence, etc. I see no reason to believe that this is the case until actual evidence is provided to substantiate the claim (sure, there is a possibility that it is true, but you know, in the name of evidenced-based practice and all...).

Anyway, I understand that you personally will not be using the title "doctor" in the clinical setting after you complete your DNP program. There is nothing wrong with that. My point is that for me, I see nothing wrong with anyone with an earned doctorate, whether physician, pharmacist, psychologist, physical therapist, nurse practitioner, podiatrist, audiologist, etc, using the title doctor, as long as they properly identify themselves as to their role (and everyone should be doing this anyway, whether they have a doctorate, masters, bachelors, associates, certificate, on the job training, whatever). If, for example, Dr. Jane identifies herself as Dr. Jane the nurse practitioner, there is no way a lawsuit would hold any water, since she properly identified herself as a nurse practitioner.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

To your point... why should the NP have to identify himself or herself as NP? What is wrong with Dr. Jane? Why does a physician not have to identify himself or herself as Dr. Bob, the physician, but you claim a NP has to identify as a NP? That seems unfair as both have earned the title of doctor if that's the point you're going with.

What about the janitor with a PhD in basketweaving from Mailacheck university. Should he introduce himself to the patients as "Doctor"?

Outside of academia we dont call ourselves by our educational titles. We dont call for Associate Smith, or Bachelor Jones, or Master Evans in clinical settings....so we shouldn't call PhDs "doctor" in clinical settings (or DNPs, or DPTs, or AuDs, or PharmDs). It would simply confuse our already overwhelmed patients even more.

 

[deleted6669]

I have to agree with Boat above. I am 3 classes away from completing a 4 yr doctorate in health science and global health and will not introduce myself to pts as Dr Emedpa when I am done. I will list the credential on my name tag and may be Dr Emedpa if lecturing at a med school or pa program but will still say " Hi I'm emedpa, one of the pas here" as an introduction. anything else is too confusing and just about ego. If I have to have a 5 min conversation about "yes I'm a doctor but not a physician" with every pt that just detracts from time spent on the pts needs.

 

[NYCGuy86]

What about the janitor with a PhD in basketweaving from Mailacheck university. Should he introduce himself to the patients as "Doctor"?

Since his PhD is not in something related to his career, then...probably not. We'll just have to wait for the PhD in janitorial sciences to come out.

 

[NYCGuy86]

I have to agree with Boat above. I am 3 classes away from completing a 4 yr doctorate in health science and global health and will not introduce myself to pts as Dr Emedpa when I am done. I will list the credential on my name tag and may be Dr Emedpa if lecturing at a med school or pa program but will still say " Hi I'm emedpa, one of the pas here" as an introduction. anything else is too confusing and just about ego.

Why would it be "ego" in that case when you may be "Dr. Emedpa" in the academic setting, and you will list your credential on your name tag? Why list it at all? "Ego"? I know it isn't, but to me, I think the answer to that is the same reason for why someone with an earned doctorate can be called "doctor ___" in their realms of practice (not saying that a DNP/PharmD/DPT/DHSc should be insisting to be called doctor ___).

If I have to have a 5 min conversation about "yes I'm a doctor but not a physician" with every pt that just detracts from time spent on the pts needs.

I'd hope such a conversation doesn't take five minutes! Shouldn't be any longer than the conversation about "a PA/NP? what is a PA/NP??"

 

[deleted6669]

Why would it be "ego" in that case when you may be "Dr. Emedpa" in the academic setting, and you will list your credential on your name tag? Why list it at all? "Ego"? I know it isn't, but to me, I think the answer to that is the same reason for why someone with an earned doctorate can be called "doctor ___" in their realms of practice (not saying that a DNP/PharmD/DPT/DHSc should be insisting to be called doctor ___).



I'd hope such a conversation doesn't take five minutes! Shouldn't be any longer than the conversation about "a PA/NP? what is a PA/NP??"

folks in my state know what PAs are. I work in a state with a long hx of PA utilization and good practice laws. If I started saying " Hi, I'm Dr. Emedpa, one of the PAs here", the vast majority of patients would then start in with "great, when did you finish med school" and I would need to explain that I attended an academic doctorate program in global health, not medschool. this would lead to more questions: so, why did you do it? are you still going to go to medschool, do you want to teach?, etc. just detracts from why they are there. In a busy ER I have maybe 10 min total to spend with a low acuity pt, why spend 3-4 explaining who I am? In an academic setting it doesn't matter if someone can't figure out that Emedpa, PA-C, DHSc is a pa with an academic doctorate( and I'm guessing pa students would understand the terminology- I wouldn't expect pts to). In the hospital it matters. I know several PA, PhD folks told they would be fired if they persisted in saying " Hi I'm Dr. John, one of the PAs here". Physicians are acknowledged as the gold standard in medical care. misrepresenting oneself as a physician, or potentially doing so, is dishonest to pts. People should know who they are seeing.

 

[NYCGuy86]

folks in my state know what PAs are. I work in a state with a long hx of PA utilization and good practice laws.

That is great for you! Unfortunately, I've seen posts over at PA Forums about PAs being confused with medical assistants, patients not knowing what a PA is, how to explain, what does "PA" stand for, etc.

If I started saying " Hi, I'm Dr. Emedpa, one of the PAs here", the vast majority of patients would then start in with "great, when did you finish med school" and I would need to explain that I attended an academic doctorate program in global health, not medschool. this would lead to more questions: so, why did you do it? are you still going to go to medschool, do you want to teach?, etc. just detracts from why they are there. In a busy ER I have maybe 10 min total to spend with a low acuity pt, why spend 3-4 explaining who I am? In an academic setting it doesn't matter if someone can't figure out that Emedpa, PA-C, DHSc is a pa with an academic doctorate( and I'm guessing pa students would understand the terminology- I wouldn't expect pts to). In the hospital it matters.

I can agree with that. Even without the doctorate many patients will ask whether the PA or NP or RN will be "going on" to medical school. Maybe they'll look at your badge and see "DHSc" and ask what that is, why did you do it, etc.

I know several PA, PhD folks told they would be fired if they persisted in saying " Hi I'm Dr. John, one of the PAs here".

That is sad. Hopefully that will change one day. Here in NYC, that isn't the case in my experience (physicians often refer to the rounding clinical pharmacist as "Dr", or the DNP that is co-clinical director of aortic surgery as 'Dr", among other examples I've seen).

Physicians are acknowledged as the gold standard in medical care. misrepresenting oneself as a physician, or potentially doing so, is dishonest to pts. People should know who they are seeing.

I agree, which is what I said earlier as well. To me, identifying oneself by their earned title of "doctor", and people knowing who they are seeing, are not mutually exclusive, as seen in the example I gave in a prior post.

In the end, as I mentioned before, I don't see a problem with either scenario. If a non-physician with a doctorate in their field refers to themselves or is referred to as Doctor, and they are properly identified as to their role (whether NP, pharmacist, PA, psychologist, podiatrist, etc), I see no problem (unless of course the facility has a specific written policy stating that this is not to be done). No, I don't think they should go around insisting to be called doctor, but I don't don't think they should be refused the right to be referred to by their earned degree. That means that Master PA is okay too.

 

[deleted6669]

I agree that widespread knowledge of the pa profession is still not the norm and frequent confusion still exists in many places. I have just migrated to settings in which that happens less, for instance one job I work at staffs predominately solo EM PAs in the emergency department. It's a small community, so everyone there knows what a pa is. This is more common in rural and/or underserved areas. In suburban areas where PAs have not penetrated the medical scene to the same degree many issues still exist regarding recognition and respect.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Since his PhD is not in something related to his career, then...probably not. We'll just have to wait for the PhD in janitorial sciences to come out.

Okay, so what if he has a PhD in plumbing maintenance from Mailacheck University, THEN could he introduce himself to patients as "Doctor Smith"?

Or, even worse, what if it is an admistrative critter with a PhD in bureaucracy, could THEY introduce themselves to patients as "Doctor Beancounter?"

If you're not a physician, don't introduce yourself to patients as a doctor. Otherwise people who know you are not a "real" doctor are going to laugh at you behind your back. Although some of us won't do it behind your back....

 

[Boatswain2PA]

No, I don't think they should go around insisting to be called doctor, but I don't don't think they should be refused the right to be referred to by their earned degree. That means that Master PA is okay too.

Sooo.....since I have two master's degrees.....can I be called "Master Master"???

 

[deleted480308]

I would absolutely fire an employee who was introducing themselves as doctor if they were a pa or np.

 

[deleted432032]

I think part of the argument can be centered around what qualifies as a clinical doctorate and what is an educational doctorate. An educatinal doctorate is really not suppose to be used away from an educational setting, therefore, in a clinical setting someone with an educational doctorate should not refer to themselves as a doctor. So the questions that remain are "What constitues a clinical doctorate" and "Is the DNP an educational doctorate or a clinical doctorate"?

 

[deleted480308]

I think part of the argument can be centered around what qualifies as a clinical doctorate and what is an educational doctorate. An educatinal doctorate is really not suppose to be used away from an educational setting, therefore, in a clinical setting someone with an educational doctorate should not refer to themselves as a doctor. So the questions that remain are "What constitues a clinical doctorate" and "Is the DNP an educational doctorate or a clinical doctorate"?

Look at the curriculum, it's not clinical

 

[sarjasy]

Okay, so what if he has a PhD in plumbing maintenance from Mailacheck University, THEN could he introduce himself to patients as "Doctor Smith"?

Maybe in a gastroenterology clinic.

 

[sarjasy]

I would absolutely fire an employee who was introducing themselves as doctor if they were a pa or np.

Except that you are a med student who can't fire anybody.

 

[deleted480308]

Except that you are a med student who can't fire anybody.

I've hired and fired plenty of people in my life...at some point both are likely to happen again

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

I have to agree with Boat above. I am 3 classes away from completing a 4 yr doctorate in health science and global health and will not introduce myself to pts as Dr Emedpa when I am done. I will list the credential on my name tag and may be Dr Emedpa if lecturing at a med school or pa program but will still say " Hi I'm emedpa, one of the pas here" as an introduction. anything else is too confusing and just about ego. If I have to have a 5 min conversation about "yes I'm a doctor but not a physician" with every pt that just detracts from time spent on the pts needs.

I'm curious. Do you feel the same about other non-physicians who have doctorates and work in a clinical setting alongside physicians? I'm thinking of psychologists, audiologists, clinical pharmacists, etc. I see these individuals refer to themselves as doctor in inpatient and outpatient settings very regularly. They always say "I'm Dr. X, the pharmacist/psychologist/podiatrist/etc". If they refer to themselves as doctor, is that also just ego? Or is it only ego if an NP or PA does it?