DNP (doctor of nursing practice) vs. DO/MD

[Charles_Carmichael]

The points of discussion were never about the cirriculam(at least not yours) as to should clinicans be calling themselves doctor in a clinical setting we have already agreed no, my point is that it is not happening so all of the hullaballo about it is really pointless.

As to the assailing part, why so worked up now? Why this Doctorate? As has been pointed out there have been others in the system with clinical doctorates but no one seemed to be worked up about it. Where is the outcry and concern over PharmD calling themselves doctor or Dpt's? There is none only nurses thus my point about the outcry.

So really, let me here the concern over the others (as if it really is an issue) until then it IS really no more then some raging paranoia.

The outcry is because these nursing "doctors" are claiming that they're equivalent to physicians. Not only that, the person who came up with the DNP (and is a big proponent of it), Mary Mundinger, has stated in public articles that she thinks DNPs are superior to physicians.

You don't see an outcry against PharmDs, DPTs, etc, because they're not making any ridiculous claims like that nor are they pushing for equivalent scope of practice as physicians. The nursing lobby is pushing for equivalent reimbursements and scope of practice even though they have less than 10% of the training that physicians get. This is what annoys physicians and physicians-in-training.

Now, do you finally understand why this outcry exists?

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[vegasrocks]

http://www.paeaonline.org/index.php?ht=a/GetDocumentAction/i/69169

A bit long but details the rise of the DPT with AUTONOMOUS PRACTICE as a goal. Quick get them!

http://www.paeaonline.org/index.php?ht=a/GetDocumentAction/i/69169

Look the same for OT, quick get them!

http://pharmd.distancelearning.ufl.edu/

Look a PharmD online, must be crap cause you cannot learn online, right.

Look everything you moan and complain about has been done before it is not the end of the world it is not a plot to eliminate MD's, so please just get over the Glen Beck level of hysteria.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

http://www.paeaonline.org/index.php?ht=a/GetDocumentAction/i/69169

A bit long but details the rise of the DPT with AUTONOMOUS PRACTICE as a goal. Quick get them!

http://www.paeaonline.org/index.php?ht=a/GetDocumentAction/i/69169

Look the same for OT, quick get them!

http://pharmd.distancelearning.ufl.edu/

Look a PharmD online, must be crap cause you cannot learn online, right.

Look everything you moan and complain about has been done before it is not the end of the world it is not a plot to eliminate MD's, so please just get over the Glen Beck level of hysteria.

Divert (DPTs do it), divert (OTs do it), divert (PharmDs do it), and then attack (You're hysterical!).....this is the typical style of argument of one who cannot successfully discuss the issue at hand.

As has been discussed ad nauseum, none of these folks (should) walk into a clinical setting and call themselves, or require others to call them, Doctor.

 

[vegasrocks]

we agree on that, but doesit happen? no, so you are saying your issue is abnon-issue? And your earlier question about cirriculam? Have you seen the others? Why don't you question their studies? Because they are not nurses? Glen Beck is calling.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

we agree on that, but doesit happen? no, so you are saying your issue is abnon-issue? And your earlier question about cirriculam? Have you seen the others? Why don't you question their studies? Because they are not nurses? Glen Beck is calling.

That was mostly incomprehensible. I think you are inferring everyone is picking on you, and nurses, simply because you are nurses. You obviously see yourself (and maybe your profession) as some sort of victim which makes it very difficult for you to engage in rational discussion.

 

[vegasrocks]

there are over 264 posts on this thread about the dnp, most of them less then flattering, I do not note the same criticisim raised against other doctorates, your inability to recognize the obvious, plus your inability to keep one point makes it exceedingly difficult to have rational discourse

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

why do you insist on this nurse calling themselves "doctor", it is a nonissue there has not been a reported incident it is just a red herring that people are jumping at, I repeat why is no one screaming about the other doctorates and PharmD, or PT calling themselves doctor?

When I start hearing those concerns then maybe everyones concerns may have some credability, by the way any concern about optometrists calling themselves "doctor"? thought not, face it the hysteria is the same as the hysteria over the mosque in NY

While it *IS* a red herring, there is a real issue that has been forgotten.....the course progressions are a joke. I've posted ad nauseum about the "filler" courses being propped up as doctoral level. There is NO real reason for the DNP.

Research....a Ph.D. is more appropriate.
Health Administration....a MPH is more appropriate.
Manage A Business....an MBA is more appropriate.
Clinical....fellowship training is more appropriate.

The list goes on.

 

[DOtoCanada]

Wow! What angry replies to simple comments. You all are really threatened by another profession that you don't control and is expanding in the healthcare field. Maybe, just maybe you should consider that everyone should be working for the betterment of the PATIENT. How sad that is not your focus. Thought I would give you the list of financial expansions for Nursing based practices, that the government is providing in the healthcare reform. The truth stands for itself. Just FYI, the best docs will tell you they are the best because they were smart enough to listen to their nurses. I don't think those who posted the defensive comments are the best docs. Pretty apparent that they lack professionalism to say the least.

Here is your list of reforms concerning the expanding field of Nursing Practice

The new U.S. health care law expands the role of nurses with:

$50 million to nurse-managed health clinics that offer primary care to low-income patients.

$50 million annually from 2012-15 for hospitals to train nurses with advanced degrees to care for Medicare patients.

10 percent bonuses from Medicare from 2011-16 to primary care providers, including nurse practitioners, who work in areas where doctors are scarce.

A boost in the Medicare reimbursement rate for certified nurse midwives to bring their pay to the same level as a doctor’s.

Cumulative Number of Medical Malpractice Reports
Data Bank filings (Period 9/90 – 9/09) :

• 11 for NPs (2339 in state† results in a 1:213 ratio)

• 66 for DO/Interns/Residents ( 539 in state† results in a 1:8 ratio)

• 2901 for MDs/Interns/Residents ( 10,779 in state† results in a 1:4 ratio)

†[Provider # calculations based upon: 1) # of NPs reported from BON for 2010 PEARSON REPORT; 2) # of DOs “as of June, 2009” data from American Osteopathic Association; 3) # of MDs from Kaiser State Health Facts “data are for December 2008” (provided # of physicians minus # of DOs)]

These are the stats for only one state but thought it was interesting information.

First of all, you are pre-med. Until you are in the thick of things YOURSELF, not through "my uncle is a doctor and his friend told him..," you have no say in the matter.

Secondly, consider what NPs do vs MDs/DOs. A vast majority of NPs have a practice revolving around coughs, fevers... simple stuff. They in no way participate in high-risk activities like open hearts, full care of a critical condition medical patient, trauma cases, etc. You can put up statistics all you want but the facts behind them speak for themselves and show that they mean absolutely nothing.

 

[vegasrocks]

http://www.csufresno.edu/catoffice/current/physthercrs.html#anchorptdoct

Have you seen the course for DPT? Now go get them tiger, fluff you know

http://www.pubapps.vcu.edu/bulletins/prog_search/?did=20323&iid=30650

occupational therapy?

Now why is no one screaming about them? Just nursing, why it is because all of medicine is having a Glenn Beck moment.

When I see medicine "concerned" about other clinical doctorates (or the rest of you for that matter) perhaps you would have a shred of credibility. The truth is most of you are echoing what you hear, NURSING, NURSING,NURSING is all you hear. Do you think or compare programs, no just vomit the predigested pap you have been told, god I weep for ANYONE that ANY of you may teach ANYTHING to, clearly critical thinking is just slightly out of reach.

 

[mig26x]

http://www.csufresno.edu/catoffice/current/physthercrs.html#anchorptdoct

Have you seen the course for DPT? Now go get them tiger, fluff you know

http://www.pubapps.vcu.edu/bulletins/prog_search/?did=20323&iid=30650

occupational therapy?

Now why is no one screaming about them? Just nursing, why it is because all of medicine is having a Glenn Beck moment.

When I see medicine "concerned" about other clinical doctorates (or the rest of you for that matter) perhaps you would have a shred of credibility. The truth is most of you are echoing what you hear, NURSING, NURSING,NURSING is all you hear. Do you think or compare programs, no just vomit the predigested pap you have been told, god I weep for ANYONE that ANY of you may teach ANYTHING to, clearly critical thinking is just slightly out of reach.

you can thank Ms Mundinger for having MD's defend their profession against DNP's and not against OT or DPT. This lady has said time after time that DNP's=MD's. Do some search in google or even in this forum and you will find it.

Also, MD's are not only trying to defend themselves against DNP's only. Take a look in the ophtalmologist forum and see their battle with optometrists (also doctorate level). therefore your point of MD's having it against Nurses only goes down the toilet.

 

[vegasrocks]

"The best model of collaborative care," says Mundinger, "is a partnership between specialist physicians and DNP nurses."

Why yes that sounds soooo threatening, sounds like the urge to get rid of doctors. I swear does ANYONE read or just rely on sound bites from the most extreme elements of your organizations?

 

[Boatswain2PA]

"The best model of collaborative care," says Mundinger, "is a partnership between specialist physicians and DNP nurses."

Why yes that sounds soooo threatening, sounds like the urge to get rid of doctors. I swear does ANYONE read or just rely on sound bites from the most extreme elements of your organizations?

In case anyone ever wanted to know what the old analogy "That's like the pot calling the kettle black" means, look no further than this posting.

Vegas posts up a soundbite, but then castigates "everyone else" for not being able to read and just relying on soundbites.

 

[drift]

"The best model of collaborative care," says Mundinger, "is a partnership between specialist physicians and DNP nurses."

Why yes that sounds soooo threatening, sounds like the urge to get rid of doctors. I swear does ANYONE read or just rely on sound bites from the most extreme elements of your organizations?

I'm sorry, but the mere fact that there is a "partnership" and not a supervision BUGS me. I need to see a reason why a nurse who took a couple years of PART-TIME online classes considers that she is (even close) to equivalent with a specialist physician. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't make sense. Now I understand nurses have a strong lobby with which they can get away with collaboration vs supervision in CERTAIN states, but it's wrong; especially in a setting where the only person to lose from the situation is the patient.

 

[zenman]

Regarding the use of "practice": you really don't know what you are talking about. What cracks me up is when people are trying to be condescending and are completely incorrect. (Sidebar: coincidentally a couple weeks ago while I was working my prn gig I called a nurse practicioner who prescribed amoxicillin to a patient with a hx of a pcn allergy (hives). I called her regarding this. She (in a very condescending tone) went on to state "Yes, I'm aware he has a PEN-i-cillin allergy, that's why I prescribed A-MOX-i-cillin now just do as you're told and fill the script." and she hangs up. I proceeded to call back the urgent care center, asked for the MD/DO on duty and of course the medication was changed) Gamecock stated pharmacists practiced independently. You really should look up definitions regarding the word "practice" before trying to talk down to him.

.

I've been in healthcare almost 40 years...let me go look up what a practice is. P.S. If I had wanted to be condescending I would have done so. Now, do you really need me to explain what a practice is or can you look it up?

 

[gotdrugs]

I've been in healthcare almost 40 years...let me go look up what a practice is. P.S. If I had wanted to be condescending I would have done so. Now, do you really need me to explain what a practice is or can you look it up?

Let me help you and give you a clue as you are obviously clueless.

1) Gamecock didn't state that he had a "practice" (noun)
2) Gamecock did state that pharmacists practiced independently (verb)

 

[zenman]

Let me help you and give you a clue as you are obviously clueless.

1) Gamecock didn't state that he had a "practice" (noun)
2) Gamecock did state that pharmacists practiced independently (verb)

Are you done editing? Sorry, I missed that in my hurry. So while Gamecock was talking about the same as a "yoga practice" I was thinking about clinical practice with patients where you make the decisions. My bad.

And to answer your other question:

Doctor of Nursing Practice Degree - Leadership and the Business of Health Care

Rush University College of Nursing is one of the first colleges in the nation to award the practice doctorate. Building on the established role of the master's prepared nurse, the DNP program provides real world experience in strategic planning, communication to affect change, data management and the application of critical business concepts.

The DNP degree is designed to prepare a leader able to affect change through system redesign and evidence-based decision making in a variety of clinical, organizational and educational systems. Through coursework, clinical practicum and project implementation, the DNP graduate is prepared to influence health care outcomes for diverse populations in a variety of settings.

 

[lapelirroja]

PS no one cares about the Doctorate in PT or OT because they're obviously just therapists. (And I don't mean "just" in a derogatory way). They don't do anything without an order or referral from ME or my colleagues (PAs, NPs, MDs, DOs). A PT or OT can't open up a practice and transition from working with disabilities and injuries to assessing chief complaints of cough or rash and prescribing meds. That's why, although its quite silly, its not threatening. And bringing up that fact over and over again doesnt change peoples opinion of the DNP.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The DNP degree is designed to prepare a leader able to affect change through system redesign and evidence-based decision making in a variety of clinical, organizational and educational systems. Through coursework, clinical practicum and project implementation, the DNP graduate is prepared to influence health care outcomes for diverse populations in a variety of settings.

That sounds really similar to an MPH. Why is the DNP needed if the professional can attend an already existing and proven MPH program?

 

[FredDurst]

That sounds really similar to an MPH. Why is the DNP needed if the professional can attend an already existing and proven MPH program?

"DNPs are the ideal candidates to fill the primary-care void and deliver a new, more comprehensive brand of care that starts with but goes well beyond conventional medical practice. In addition to expert diagnosis and treatment, DNP training places an emphasis on preventive care, risk reduction and promoting good health practices. These clinicians are peerless prevention specialists and coordinators of complex care. In other words, as a patient, you get the medical knowledge of a physician, with the added skills of a nursing professional."

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

.....you get the medical knowledge of a physician, with the added skills of a nursing professional."

How does the above jive with.....

strategic planning, communication to affect change, data management and the application of critical business concepts.

Straight answers, where have you gone?!

 

[Boatswain2PA]

"DNPs are the ideal candidates to fill the primary-care void and deliver a new, more comprehensive brand of care that starts with but goes well beyond conventional medical practice. In addition to expert diagnosis and treatment, DNP training places an emphasis on preventive care, risk reduction and promoting good health practices. These clinicians are peerless prevention specialists and coordinators of complex care. In other words, as a patient, you get the medical knowledge of a physician, with the added skills of a nursing professional."

Fred - Is that a quote from Mundinger?

It's amazing how the DNP can get the "medical knowledge of a physician" down in just 500 clinical hours.

 

[FredDurst]

Fred - Is that a quote from Mundinger?

It's amazing how the DNP can get the "medical knowledge of a physician" down in just 500 clinical hours.

Yep! Pretty scary vision of where she wants DNPs headed.

http://www.forbes.com/2007/11/27/nurses-doctors-practice-oped-cx_mom_1128nurses.html

 

[vegasrocks]

I am still waiting for some real issue over the DNP relative to the other clinical doctorates, I have a feeling I will be waiting a loonnng time, if anyone has any real objection other then anecdote or the need to satisfy some Stockholm syndrome please speak.

 

[drift]

I am still waiting for some real issue over the DNP relative to the other clinical doctorates, I have a feeling I will be waiting a loonnng time, if anyone has any real objection other then anecdote or the need to satisfy some Stockholm syndrome please speak.

While a PT for example, would go through 3 years of post-graduate full-time intensive study, and at the end only would get his/her degree. Furthermore, there is no other higher trained personnel in his field. While yes, PT's are also trying to increase their scope of practice, and while I don't agree, comparing them to a nurse practitioner is, to me, comparing apples to oranges.

The objection here is that relatively speaking, an inferiorly-trained person is trying to do the "equivalent job" of a person who trained years full-time for it. One of the dnps I spoke to, who by the way was 23, told me that she was glad she was able to "streamline" her path to an independent practitioner. I was SHOCKED to say the least. By the way, she only came to campus once a month, rest all online.

Are you actually aware of how much "work" DNP students do? My best friend is also in a dnp program, and a good one too and she tells me that even after working 45 hour weeks as an RN, she feels her online classes are keeping her just "busy" enough.

Now, NP's have a role in medicine. But, it's not the role their trying to play. I have no problem with supervision of nurse practioners, infact they make great physician-extenders and I would like to note that. Although, there shouldn't be a short-cut to being a doctor. I mean, PA's are trained far more superiorly then NP's in regard to "real medicine". So, then why aren't PA's given a bigger scope of practice then NP's? It's all because of the massive nursing lobby and unfortunately, the only one to suffer from this is the unsuspecting patient who is satisfied knowing that the person seeing him is a doctor "NP"

 

[Boatswain2PA]

, PA's are trained far more superiorly then NP's in regard to "real medicine". So, then why aren't PA's given a bigger scope of practice then NP's?

Because PAs understand the difference between 6 years of education/2500 clinical hours and 10-12 years of education/10,000+ clinical hours. But apparently Mundinger and others in the DNP=Doctor political storm can't do math, because they think 6 years of education/500 clinical hours is equal to the 10-12/10,000+.

Vegas: Many people do take issue with the other "clinical doctorates". However, as was pointed out, these other professions are strictly limited in what they do. They are not the physician extenders that PAs are, and NPs are supposed to be.

Plus, this is a thread on the DNP vs DO/MD. Probably won't find much else in this thread. But if you were to go to some of the other threads you may find some of what you are looking for.

And lastly - you once again resort to playing the victim card. Stockholm syndrome? Really? Well....at least you didn't mention your hero Glen Beck

 

[FutureDoc4]

While a PT for example, would go through 3 years of post-graduate full-time intensive study, and at the end only would get his/her degree. Furthermore, there is no other higher trained personnel in his field. While yes, PT's are also trying to increase their scope of practice, and while I don't agree, comparing them to a nurse practitioner is, to me, comparing apples to oranges.

The objection here is that relatively speaking, an inferiorly-trained person is trying to do the "equivalent job" of a person who trained years full-time for it. One of the dnps I spoke to, who by the way was 23, told me that she was glad she was able to "streamline" her path to an independent practitioner. I was SHOCKED to say the least. By the way, she only came to campus once a month, rest all online.

Are you actually aware of how much "work" DNP students do? My best friend is also in a dnp program, and a good one too and she tells me that even after working 45 hour weeks as an RN, she feels her online classes are keeping her just "busy" enough.

Now, NP's have a role in medicine. But, it's not the role their trying to play. I have no problem with supervision of nurse practioners, infact they make great physician-extenders and I would like to note that. Although, there shouldn't be a short-cut to being a doctor. I mean, PA's are trained far more superiorly then NP's in regard to "real medicine". So, then why aren't PA's given a bigger scope of practice then NP's? It's all because of the massive nursing lobby and unfortunately, the only one to suffer from this is the unsuspecting patient who is satisfied knowing that the person seeing him is a doctor "NP"

This is shocking and I hope people realize those that practice real medicine don't think like this (underlined above)

I worked in EMS before medical school, have clinical training in medical school (not yet done--but def more hours than a DNP program), a masters degree in a biology, I'm older than 23, and I still constantly feel like I know nothing in the hospital.


You have to realize how much there is to learn, and that you are constantly learning every day.... there is NO streamlining or shortcuts in this game. Otherwise, you create dangerous providers, who can't do anything but follow a flow chart.

The attitude underlined above that he/she wanted to 'streamline' their education is so dangerous, because it fails to acknowledge the grandiosity that is medicine. Secondly, it goes against, one of the most important components to any practitioner of medicine..."Life Long Learning"

 

[PharmBound2011]

Now, NP's have a role in medicine. But, it's not the role their trying to play. I have no problem with supervision of nurse practioners, infact they make great physician-extenders and I would like to note that. Although, there shouldn't be a short-cut to being a doctor. I mean, PA's are trained far more superiorly then NP's in regard to "real medicine". So, then why aren't PA's given a bigger scope of practice then NP's? It's all because of the massive nursing lobby and unfortunately, the only one to suffer from this is the unsuspecting patient who is satisfied knowing that the person seeing him is a doctor "NP"

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. I for one would like to see the more qualified person get the most scope of practice. With each helping another, many lives can be saved. I for one would like to see NP's do what they're trained to do, which is to EXTEND physician services, not pretend to be one yourself. In an ideal world, the more you are trained, the more scope you should get, it's rather simple.


-Physician - 8yrs + minimum 3yr residency (in-class/hands-on training) / 10,000+ clinical hours. Independent Practitioner.

-PA/AA - 6 years (in-class/hands-on training) / 2500 Clinical hours. Dependent Practitioner.

-"DOCTOR" NP- 6 years (post-graduate 80% online & 20% in-class) / 600 Clinical Hours. Trained to be less then a dependent practioner, BUT, claims to be independent ?!



MD/DO > PA/AA > Doctor NP > RN > CNA. That's the rank in the level of training I see. I don't want to point out any anecdotal information, but rather the facts. More training should equal more rights, medicine is too important a profession to think otherwise.

Then again, if DNP's are claiming to know all this medicine, then they should be overseen by the board of medicine, NOT the board of nursing. Well, thats the root to this problem, anyways.

 

[drift]

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. I for one would like to see the more qualified person get the most scope of practice. With each helping another, many lives can be saved. I for one would like to see NP's do what they're trained to do, which is to EXTEND physician services, not pretend to be one yourself. In an ideal world, the more you are trained, the more scope you should get, it's rather simple.


-Physician - 8yrs + minimum 3yr residency (in-class/hands-on training) / 10,000+ clinical hours. Independent Practitioner.

-PA/AA - 6 years (in-class/hands-on training) / 2500 Clinical hours. Dependent Practitioner.

-"DOCTOR" NP- 6 years (post-graduate 80% online & 20% in-class) / 600 Clinical Hours. Trained to be less then a dependent practioner, BUT, claims to be independent ?!



MD/DO > PA/AA > Doctor NP > RN > CNA. That's the rank in the level of training I see. I don't want to point out any anecdotal information, but rather the facts. More training should equal more rights, medicine is too important a profession to think otherwise.

Then again, if DNP's are claiming to know all this medicine, then they should be overseen by the board of medicine, NOT the board of nursing. Well, thats the root to this problem, anyways.

But...but, I was told NP's provide holistic care...

 

[Shasta Barbell]

The idea of this thread is useless.

A Nurse Practitioner is a mid-level practitioner and a Doctor is a Doctor.

The curriculum of the DNP program is a joke and doesn't compare to being a doctor at all. Most programs are online and part-time and at most, a lobbying effort from the Nursing Association.



NP's practice NURSING. Doctor's practice Medicine.

While still a midlevel clinician, the better comparison is PA vs. Doctor. Because while a PA is also a dependent practitioner, he atleast practices medicine, which isn't true for NP's.

All in all, I think NP's are great. They have a place in healthcare for sure, but I'm sick of them trying to pose as doctors, and try to push for independent practice when they aren't trained for either. I just wish they stayed as they are supposed to be, which is a mid-level care provider and that I will have to admit, they do great!

And for the people who claimed that "NP's are better then PA's," I urge you to look at the curriculums and decide for yourself. I was under the same misconception as most people until my friend applied to PA schools and I was helping him look into curriculums and WOW, PA's are MUCH more trained then NP's, although none are Doctors.

One, I call my dog's veterinarian "Doctor". It's a level of academic preparation, not a role. Get your academics straight. Two, I'd rethink my opinion on the DNP being a joke- then again, you'd have to be in my shoes at Vanderbilt's DNP program to even begin to consider the DNP a "joke". Can't wait for you to be shown up professionally, ya Chump.

 

[FutureDoc4]

One, I call my dog's veterinarian "Doctor". It's a level of academic preparation, not a role. Get your academics straight. Two, I'd rethink my opinion on the DNP being a joke- then again, you'd have to be in my shoes at Vanderbilt's DNP program to even begin to consider the DNP a "joke". Can't wait for you to be shown up professionally, ya Chump.

I can't wait for you to get "shown up" for your lack of knowledge.... o wait...

You will never feel embarrassed or "shown up" because immediately you seem like one of those practitioners who think they know as much as a physician.....which is 1) dangerous (cause you don't realize how much you don't know ) 2) Ridiculous and with your "expert" knowledge people will be laughing at you behind your back (though few will say it to you face).

Everyone here recognizes PhDs, PharmDs, etc as doctorate level degree....hence, the reason "doctor" or "professor" is readily used in the classroom (hell, I've had nurses (RNs) come give us a lecture before and guess what medical students called them? Professor--its about respect in the classroom)... I am of the mindset that in the clinic "doctor" is reserved for the physician.

Why is it that DNPs only have this ego problem? I have NEVER run into a PharmD, DPT, etc., have this same ego problem?

P.S. Before you say, why is this "Doctor" title reserved only for physicians in the clinic? Simple--there is a expectation amongst patients that if you say "doctor" in the hospital/clinic setting you are referring to a physician---remember most people are not "smart" about health care economics/practitioner roles and often have no idea that they are seeing a PA, DNP, MD/DO, RN, and often do not know the educational differences and roles (if you would like literature on this I would be happy to provide---though I am hoping in your fancy school they taught you how to do a pubmed search)

 

[PharmBound2011]

One, I call my dog's veterinarian "Doctor". It's a level of academic preparation, not a role. Get your academics straight. Two, I'd rethink my opinion on the DNP being a joke- then again, you'd have to be in my shoes at Vanderbilt's DNP program to even begin to consider the DNP a "joke". Can't wait for you to be shown up professionally, ya Chump.

Vanderbilt DNP Program Description (directly from their website)

"The Vanderbilt Doctor of Nursing Practice program is structured as a post-master's program for MSN-prepared nurses, requiring 74 credits, 39 of which may be transferred from an accredited APN (NP, CNM, CNS, CRNA) Master of Science in Nursing program. Students must complete 35 credits of coursework at Vanderbilt School of Nursing, including 500 hours of clinical integration, and a scholarly project. DNP students will have an intensive experience on-campus in Nashville for approximately one week each semester to facilitate mentoring by faculty and interaction with nursing Vanderbilt PhD students as part of a community of scholars. Other coursework, scholarly interaction and clinical application can take place in their home locations so that students do not have to relocate or give up employment. We use a variety of state-of-the-art online and distance learning technologies and techniques to facilitate the program and enrich every student's learning experience. Working with clinical partners in health care agencies/organizations, students will apply knowledge and skills gained from coursework to their clinical settings. These clinical experiences will build on the strengths of the Master's/APN curriculum, while transitioning students to the doctoral level."

Source: http://www.nursing.vanderbilt.edu/dnp/study_plan.html


Key (in case it isn't obvious)

-More then half the program's credits can be transferred
-500 hours of clinical exposure (total)
-have to come to campus for ONE week per semester.
-encourage full time employment
-Have to find your own clinicals (inefficient).
-It's ONLINE!
-Want to Practice INDEPENDENT MEDICINE aka play doctor.




Sorry, "doctor" nurse, you have been "shown up", as you call it. I would like to state again that your curriculum is a joke. 2 years of classes, online, and they ENCOURAGE that you stay fully employed. You are not a physician. You have not trained to be a physician. You have been trained to extend a physician's service, which BTW is a great service and a very respectable job. A Physician has 20 times the clinical exposure you have, and that is only counting residency, I'm sure there another 3-4 thou in med school itself. You are a NP, be proud of it! It's a great job and you are providing a great service to the people around you, but please, pleease, don't tell me you are a physician, or even remotely close to one.

I call my dog's vet "doctor" too. I share that in common with you. Although, when I go to a human clinic and see someone saying 'Hi, I'm Dr. XYZ, I immediately know that the person infront of me is a MD or DO. In a clinical setting, the title doctor can and should only be reserved to physicians.

 

[PharmBound2011]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai0PSXcd6dw

Perfect example of misrepresentation in action.

Between 15 and 30 seconds. "Hello both Doctors."


fail

 

[pulmonary kid]

"you get the medical knowledge of a physician, with the added skills of a nursing professional."

I just threw up.

 

[princekc]

I just threw up.

...

 

[mig26x]

Vanderbilt DNP Program Description (directly from their website)

"The Vanderbilt Doctor of Nursing Practice program is structured as a post-master’s program for MSN-prepared nurses, requiring 74 credits, 39 of which may be transferred from an accredited APN (NP, CNM, CNS, CRNA) Master of Science in Nursing program. Students must complete 35 credits of coursework at Vanderbilt School of Nursing, including 500 hours of clinical integration, and a scholarly project. DNP students will have an intensive experience on-campus in Nashville for approximately one week each semester to facilitate mentoring by faculty and interaction with nursing Vanderbilt PhD students as part of a community of scholars. Other coursework, scholarly interaction and clinical application can take place in their home locations so that students do not have to relocate or give up employment. We use a variety of state-of-the-art online and distance learning technologies and techniques to facilitate the program and enrich every student’s learning experience. Working with clinical partners in health care agencies/organizations, students will apply knowledge and skills gained from coursework to their clinical settings. These clinical experiences will build on the strengths of the Master’s/APN curriculum, while transitioning students to the doctoral level."

Source: http://www.nursing.vanderbilt.edu/dnp/study_plan.html


Key (in case it isn't obvious)

-More then half the program's credits can be transferred
-500 hours of clinical exposure (total)
-have to come to campus for ONE week per semester.
-encourage full time employment
-Have to find your own clinicals (inefficient).
-It's ONLINE!
-Want to Practice INDEPENDENT MEDICINE aka play doctor.






.

Thats a freaking joke!!! wow. and they have the balls to compare this in terms of time consumptions, difficulty and preparation to medical school/residency training!! LOL. I fee so bad for the future of patient medical care!!!

 

[PharmBound2011]

is there anything the layman can do to stop any of this? I just found out a bill that was proposed in NY to remove the collaboration requirement completely on NP's ...

"A bill introduced in the New York Legislature aims to remove the requirement that NPs must file a collaborative agreement with a physician to review charts and prescribing.

The bill, sponsored in the Assembly by Richard Gottfried and in the Senate by Velmanette Montgomery, stalled in the Higher Education Committees of both houses. New York physicians spoke out against the bill, explained Tom Nicotera, director of membership and public affairs for the Nurse Practitioner Association of New York State (NPA). "The Medical Society (of the State of New York) is opposed to the bill, citing 'patient safety' as they are usually are wont to do," he explained.

Seth Gordon, MPA, president of the NPA, told Newsday that the legislation will help NPs fill "a gaping hole" created by a shortage of primary care physicians.

Speaking about her patients, NPA treasurer Marion Golden, NP, told Newsday: "They don't understand why I need a collaborative agreement when I have a private practice. I introduce myself as Dr. Golden, nurse practitioner. I want to let patients know I can function autonomously."

The NPA plans to have the bill resubmitted next year."


it didn't go through, but, why, why my home state?

 

[glamqueen]

is there anything the layman can do to stop any of this? I just found out a bill that was proposed in NY to remove the collaboration requirement completely on NP's ...

"A bill introduced in the New York Legislature aims to remove the requirement that NPs must file a collaborative agreement with a physician to review charts and prescribing.

The bill, sponsored in the Assembly by Richard Gottfried and in the Senate by Velmanette Montgomery, stalled in the Higher Education Committees of both houses. New York physicians spoke out against the bill, explained Tom Nicotera, director of membership and public affairs for the Nurse Practitioner Association of New York State (NPA). "The Medical Society (of the State of New York) is opposed to the bill, citing 'patient safety' as they are usually are wont to do," he explained.

Seth Gordon, MPA, president of the NPA, told Newsday that the legislation will help NPs fill "a gaping hole" created by a shortage of primary care physicians.

Speaking about her patients, NPA treasurer Marion Golden, NP, told Newsday: "They don't understand why I need a collaborative agreement when I have a private practice. I introduce myself as Dr. Golden, nurse practitioner. I want to let patients know I can function autonomously."

The NPA plans to have the bill resubmitted next year."


it didn't go through, but, why, why my home state?

Horrible...and the general public wonders why we don't do primary care and gripes to us that it is "all about money." Yeah, because A. you want something for nothing, and B. we are being replaced by nurses who think they are doctors but can't treat you like they are (good luck with that).

 

[fab4fan]

The objection here is that relatively speaking, an inferiorly-trained person is trying to do the "equivalent job" of a person who trained years full-time for it. One of the dnps I spoke to, who by the way was 23, told me that she was glad she was able to "streamline" her path to an independent practitioner. I was SHOCKED to say the least. By the way, she only came to campus once a month, rest all online.

This person hasn't even been working in nursing long enough to know what she is doing as a nurse, let along take on the added responsibility of being an advanced practice nurse. People like her make me shudder for the future of the nursing profession.

 

[fab4fan]

One, I call my dog's veterinarian "Doctor". It's a level of academic preparation, not a role. Get your academics straight. Two, I'd rethink my opinion on the DNP being a joke- then again, you'd have to be in my shoes at Vanderbilt's DNP program to even begin to consider the DNP a "joke". Can't wait for you to be shown up professionally, ya Chump.

You might want to reconsider referring to others in your first post here as "chump." It's not a great way to get off to a good start.

 

[oldManDO2009]

if DNPs want the same pay, even though they do not come close to the same education, as doctor then let them have the same liability.

I have no idea why anyone would go to medical school when they can get the same reimbursement after going to nursing school? Oh wait I do know, they want to practice medicine not nursing. A BSN and MSN does not prepare you for the practice of medicine but this has been illustrated time and time again on this forum. I will have 10K hours plus by the time I finish residency and just might be prepared for independent practice.

As a former nurse that went to medical school these arguments of on the job experience is nonsense and 500 hours of unregulated clinical experience is ridiculous. These 500 hours could be ANYTHING - there is no supervision. So sitting in a doctors office for 500 hours is equivalent to the numerous central lines, chest tube, intubation, and 1000s of xrays I have reviewed preparing myself for independent practice?

It all comes down to a matter of economics. When trial lawyers attack the DNPs for substandard care their malpractice rates will skyrocket. I see a new financial opportunity, expert witness.

I have no argument with collaborative care - I do it everyday talking with sub-specialist. The idea that a DNP should practice independently is just bad medicine.

 

[schlemm]

One, I call my dog's veterinarian "Doctor". It's a level of academic preparation, not a role. Get your academics straight. Two, I'd rethink my opinion on the DNP being a joke- then again, you'd have to be in my shoes at Vanderbilt's DNP program to even begin to consider the DNP a "joke". Can't wait for you to be shown up professionally, ya Chump.

I don't care what DNP program you're in. Come talk to me after spending 1000 hours studying for just Step 1 (yes, 80 hours a week for 3 months). B**ch, please?!

 

[ChillyRN]

This person hasn't even been working in nursing long enough to know what she is doing as a nurse, let along take on the added responsibility of being an advanced practice nurse. People like her make me shudder for the future of the nursing profession.

I agree. The direct entry programs leave a bad taste in my mouth. It occurs to me that the vague sense of insult and unease I feel when 21 year olds with no nursing experience pontificate about how they are just as prepared for NP practice as I -with over almost 20 years in,16 years in critical care nursing, might just be akin to what medical students and young physicians feel when NPs claim equivalence. So, I can't say I blame them.

I really do understand why they might take issue with some of the more aggressive NP arguments re: independent practice, etc. I'll never get the hang up over the long coat thing though.

 

[PICUPNP]

The points of discussion were never about the cirriculam(at least not yours) as to should clinicans be calling themselves doctor in a clinical setting we have already agreed no, my point is that it is not happening so all of the hullaballo about it is really pointless.

Really? Try looking at www.doctorsofnursingpractice.com in their forum community and you will see a gaggle of them demanding that their staff call them Dr! It is happening!

 

[Boatswain2PA]

The points of discussion were never about the cirriculam(at least not yours) as to should clinicans be calling themselves doctor in a clinical setting we have already agreed no, my point is that it is not happening so all of the hullaballo about it is really pointless.

Really? Try looking at www.doctorsofnursingpractice.com in their forum community and you will see a gaggle of them demanding that their staff call them Dr! It is happening!

I'll call a DNP "Doctor" when he/she refers to me as "Master".

 

[RKNY]

Really? Try looking at www.doctorsofnursingpractice.com in their forum community and you will see a gaggle of them demanding that their staff call them Dr! It is happening!

Not only demanding but getting a kick out of calling themselves doctor.

 

[glamqueen]

Not only demanding but getting a kick out of calling themselves doctor.

This is a fascinating website...I had no idea so many people truly thought NP = MD in medical knowledge. Blown away for sure.

I especially love the part in this post where the NP said that 50-60% of medical students fail USMLE step 3.

http://doctorsofnursingpractice.ning.com/forum/topics/should-nps-require-a

Somehow I think not only did he make up that stat (so far from the truth), but he missed the part that medical STUDENTS don't take Step 3. Only interns or graduated holders of MD degrees take it.

Unbelievable.

 

[mmmcdowe]

This is a fascinating website...I had no idea so many people truly thought NP = MD in medical knowledge. Blown away for sure.

I especially love the part in this post where the NP said that 50-60% of medical students fail USMLE step 3.

http://doctorsofnursingpractice.ning.com/forum/topics/should-nps-require-a

Somehow I think not only did he make up that stat (so far from the truth), but he missed the part that medical STUDENTS don't take Step 3. Only interns or graduated holders of MD degrees take it.

Unbelievable.

I think he meant the first time ever that people took the step 3 back in the day. I have never seen that data but it would be interesting

 

[Jambi]

USMLE Stats are published: http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2008.html

Looks like for 2008, first time takers MD and DO had a 95% pass rate...unless I'm reading the chart wrong.

 

[mmmcdowe]

USMLE Stats are published: http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2008.html

Looks like for 2008, first time takers MD and DO had a 95% pass rate...unless I'm reading the chart wrong.

'Once again, I think that the guy was arguing that the first time the step 3 was every taken (meaning the first year that any medical student in the US had ever taken it), the pass rate was very low. I have no clue if that is true or not.

 

[Narnian]

Regardless of what he was arguing there, I pulled this jewel of a quote from there

"Physicians, are afraid that patients will discover that the care we provide is equal to that of physicians."

Hmmm... Im not quite sure what to think about this statement. Im not sure what he means and I do not want to take it out of context. But it seems pretty straight forward as far as comments go.

Any Thoughts?