Do accidents such as surgeons leaving tools inside patients actually occur?

yazdiane

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On TV I keep seeing stuff like a surgeon outright leaving entire tools or gloves inside a patient before stitching them up.

Please tell me that it doesn't really ever happen.

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I've read a statistic that it happens quite often mostly with small surgical sponges, but I did see a case on TV where a 14 inch extractor or w/e its called was left in a man and wasn't discovered for a few weeks. I believe I saw that on Ripley's Believe it or Not.
 
It's extremely uncommon, but it does happen. After a few years in a surgical residency, you will likely have encountered at least one instance, or heard of it happening. Usually it occurs at Outside Hospital, and the patient ends up transferred to the University Hospital due to postoperative complications, where the mishap is discovered.
 
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In the hospital where I shadow the OR, precautions are taken to prevent this. All items -- tools, sponges, rags -- are counted according to protocol before they enter the OR. Then they're continuously counted throughout the surgery at intervals, and a final count is made before the patient is wheeled out of the room.

A good sense of personal accountability (and confidence in your work) is what you need. Hospitals will give you the tools you need to protect yourself from being sued. No, it isn't entirely preventable. However, if YOU know you do good work, there's no use worrying about the rest. Just remember... as the surgeon, if you have a special quirk (like, if you require the nurses to count the sponges 2x protocol) we will try to accomodate you, because you're the MD, etc.

In the end, whatever it takes for you to be safe, comfortable and confident. :)
 
Yikes.

Well, somewhat still on topic, does pretty much every doctor get sued at some point in their life? Is it really that devastating to their career?
 
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Well, somewhat still on topic, does pretty much every doctor get sued at some point in their life? Is it really that devastating to their career?

Yes, chances are high that you will get sued at some point in your medical career. And certain specialties that routinely deal with high risk procedures (e.g. surgeons, obstetricians) will usually get sued more than once. But this is the reason why we have malpractice insurance.

It is extremely unlikely that a doctor will become bankrupt as a direct result from an unfavorable ruling in a malpractice case, but the high premiums resulting from a negative decision may force the doctor to change the kind of medicine they practice.

OB/Gyn is a classic example. There are many OB/Gyn's that do not deliver babies any more, even though they are licensed to do so. Some radiologists do not interpret breast imaging (notorious for being difficult to pick up tumors).
 
it is also worth pointing out that you can do everything right and still be sued just b/c the patient is unhappy with the outcome

interestingly, it's been shown that doctors who are better communicators are less likely to be sued in situations where they've made a mistake.
 
With the counting, the probability of something being left inside goes way down. Winged Scapula has said that it's common practice to wait to close up until you have the right count x2.

I read in one of Atul Gawande's books (can't remember if it's Better or Complications) that the probability goes way up if there is a complication that requires new instruments and tools to be brought into the OR. In that situation, you're changing the number of instruments and relying on one or two people (who are probably panicking just a little bit) to maintain the counts.
 
Yes, chances are high that you will get sued at some point in your medical career. And certain specialties that routinely deal with high risk procedures (e.g. surgeons, obstetricians) will usually get sued more than once. But this is the reason why we have malpractice insurance.

It is extremely unlikely that a doctor will become bankrupt as a direct result from an unfavorable ruling in a malpractice case, but the high premiums resulting from a negative decision may force the doctor to change the kind of medicine they practice.

OB/Gyn is a classic example. There are many OB/Gyn's that do not deliver babies any more, even though they are licensed to do so. Some radiologists do not interpret breast imaging (notorious for being difficult to pick up tumors).

it is also worth pointing out that you can do everything right and still be sued just b/c the patient is unhappy with the outcome

interestingly, it's been shown that doctors who are better communicators are less likely to be sued in situations where they've made a mistake.

Yep. We've been told that every doctor gets sued. You can decrease your chances with good bedside manner but you still might run into someone who was going to sue you no matter what you did. You can't control that. What you can control is if you will ever be successfully litigated. If you mind your Ps&Qs and document everything that needs to be documented you can go a career without every being successfully litigated.
 
Yep. We've been told that every doctor gets sued. You can decrease your chances with good bedside manner but you still might run into someone who was going to sue you no matter what you did. You can't control that. What you can control is if you will ever be successfully litigated. If you mind your Ps&Qs and document everything that needs to be documented you can go a career without every being successfully litigated.

http://www.amazon.com/When-Good-Doctors-Get-Sued/dp/1581510918

The widely quoted statistic from this 2001 book is that 50-65% of doctors will ever be sued during their career. It is probably extremely dependent of one's field and reliable statistics don't exist. Even if they did, they wouldn't be applicable as the question being asked is what are a "new" physicians chances of being sued and that requires knowledge of future public policy initiatives that no one has. In other words, in states that have passed effective tort reform, the chances of a suit are somewhat lower and no one knows what states will pass or change such laws over the course of a current pre-med, med student, or residents future career.

Furthermore, it is very hard to generalize as there is a large difference in the effect of being named as one "name on the chart" on a small lawsuit about a skin wound that leads to a small cosmetic problem vs a 20 million dollar infant birth asphyxia case. The effects on one's career and attitude towards medicine will be greatly affected by the type of lawsuit and magnitude of damages,etc. Not all lawsuits are the same.

As far as preventing successful litigation, I am not as convinced that this is easy to do. Certainly there is a tendency for poor documentation/communication to be a problem and certain type of medical practices are much more likely to lead to a lawsuit. But, many lawsuits are settled for relatively small amounts so as to avoid a more expensive and difficult to predict trial. Often, a trial is likely to have vindicated the physician but never happened due to a settlement.

Finally, in terms of the original question, yes, medical errors of all forms do occur. There are some nice articles out there about them and a good bit of controversy about how common this is and what should be done about it. Look it up a bit in almost any of the popular blogs about medicine and you'll find lots of discussion.
 
Every physician will make MANY occupational mistakes during his / her working lifetime. Surgeons get stuck with needles pretty frequently, they make mistakes frequently, too. Radiologists misread films on a weekly (or daily?!) basis. Every internist will misdiagnose patients, and some of these misdiagnoses will be serious. Pathologists misread slides and the patient sometimes suffers dire consequences (like a whole organ removed...when the problem in fact lay elsewhere).

The question is not whether or not you will make mistakes, but rather how well you will handle them. Most docs are affected pretty deeply by the mistakes they make. It's not exactly a phobia, but it stays with them.
 
A patient at the pharmacy I worked at had a glove and several sponges left inside her. Mistakes happen, but I have to imagine that kind of thing is extremely rare, as previously noted.
 
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The widely quoted statistic from this 2001 book is that 50-65% of doctors will ever be sued during their career. It is probably extremely dependent of one's field and reliable statistics don't exist. Even if they did, they wouldn't be applicable as the question being asked is what are a "new" physicians chances of being sued and that requires knowledge of future public policy initiatives that no one has. In other words, in states that have passed effective tort reform, the chances of a suit are somewhat lower and no one knows what states will pass or change such laws over the course of a current pre-med, med student, or residents future career.

Just a minor discrepancy, but tort reform won't have as much of an effect on the rate of lawsuits as compared to the overall impact on malpractice insurance and health care protocol. It will allow doctors to rely on evidence based rather than defensive medicine (thus saving everyone money).

States that have placed monetary caps on pain and suffering (which is what tort reform is primarily directed at) have shown no decrease in the number of malpractice lawsuits as compared to states without caps.
 
States that have placed monetary caps on pain and suffering (which is what tort reform is primarily directed at) have shown no decrease in the number of malpractice lawsuits as compared to states without caps.

The effects of tort reform depends on the nature of the laws enacted. The effects are generally best compared pre and post reform, not between states.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-18433917_ITM

From 2006

"Three years after Texas capped noneconomic damages in medical malpractice suits, plaintiffs' attorneys and the medical industry are reporting a sharp drop in med-mal lawsuits.

Voters in Texas amended the constitution in 2003 to include a $750,000 overall limit on noneconomic damages in healthcare lawsuits and a $250,000 cap on awards against doctors.

The result has been a dramatic decline in the number of medical malpractice suits filed, which in turn has forced some plaintiffs' lawyers to shutter their offices or branch into new practice areas."


But, I'm not interested in debating Tort reform on Aspire. My point is that for those concerned about the effects of malpractice on their career far into the future, a big factor may be the impact of tort reform and is thus subject to the unpredictability of the political process. Therefore, it is very hard to plan ones career based on this issue, especially for a current h.s. student.
 
There's an article written by Atul Gawande (a surgeon-writer) about this issue:

http://www.leighbureau.com/speakers/agawande/essays/malpractice.pdf

It also appears in his book Better; the precursor, Complications, is also a good read. :thumbup:



I also watch the Discovery Health channel a lot, and I remember that as a precaution against leaving sponges and other equipment in patients, many surgeons prefer using large gauze pads (as they soak blood and shrink, so the smaller ones are easier to forget) and as mentioned before, have a checklist of equipment and gauze pads.
 
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It will allow doctors to rely on evidence based rather than defensive medicine (thus saving everyone money).

When I read this, I laughed so hard I pooted on myself.
 
When I read this, I laughed so hard I pooted on myself.

Its easy to laugh when you're the one ordering a $50,000+ workup and don't have to foot the bill.

While you may feel you need to have every single lab test known to man, ever consider that some docs may think an MRI isn't necessary for every person that walks in with a headache?
 
Its easy to laugh when you're the one ordering a $50,000+ workup and don't have to foot the bill.

While you may feel you need to have every single lab test known to man, ever consider that some docs may think an MRI isn't necessary for every person that walks in with a headache?

Ordering an MRI for a headache isn't exactly practicing defensive medicine either.
 
Its easy to laugh when you're the one ordering a $50,000+ workup and don't have to foot the bill.

While you may feel you need to have every single lab test known to man, ever consider that some docs may think an MRI isn't necessary for every person that walks in with a headache?

Given that only one of the two of us is actually a practicing physician, I think your little lecture may be out of place.

But to return to the point at hand: I was laughing at the idea that Tort Reform will alter physicians' practice habits and result in decreased rates of practicing defensive medicine.

Defensive medicine is now ingrained in our culture. Physicians aren't scared of having to pay $1mil but okay with $250k. They're scared of getting sued period. Limiting judgements to smaller amounts won't do anything to change that.
 
Given that only one of the two of us is actually a practicing physician, I think your little lecture may be out of place.

But to return to the point at hand: I was laughing at the idea that Tort Reform will alter physicians' practice habits and result in decreased rates of practicing defensive medicine.

Defensive medicine is now ingrained in our culture. Physicians aren't scared of having to pay $1mil but okay with $250k. They're scared of getting sued period. Limiting judgements to smaller amounts won't do anything to change that.

If you had been paying any attention to the thread you'd see the study Tildy (an attending practicing physician) pointed out demonstrating how tort reform does affect lawsuit rates.

Tort reform (or lack thereof) does have an effect on how doctors practice, whether you want to laugh it off or not. What's your brilliant explanation for the shortage of obstetricians in states like Pennsylvania?
 
If you had been paying any attention to the thread you'd see the study Tildy (an attending practicing physician) pointed out demonstrating how tort reform does affect lawsuit rates.

Neat. Get back to me when Tildy says anything about decreased rates of CT scans in Texas.

Tort reform (or lack thereof) does have an effect on how doctors practice, whether you want to laugh it off or not. What's your brilliant explanation for the shortage of obstetricians in states like Pennsylvania?

If you can't understand a difference between practice patterns and practice locations, I guess there's really not much left to talk about.
 
First of all, the OP, like many of all ages considering medicine was worried about whether major preventable mistakes occur in medicine. Not unreasonably, premeds of all ages are afraid that they may be responsible for hurting or killing someone. Those who are a bit farther along have a different perspective and it is worthwhile sharing this with premeds.

So, let me return to this original question before going back to the side-issue of tort reform.

In medicine, those taking care of very sick patients make a lot of decisions constantly and also do procedures to patients. In that setting, being human, mistakes are made. Sometimes we just make a decision that turns out badly and then mentally go back and think about what we should have done. In thinking about it, we may decide that we did the best we could at the time with the information we had, or we may decide that we really made a bad decision. If it's the latter, then, it's a chance to learn from it.

Actually, what can happen is that people will go to far with this. Many times I'll hear one of my colleagues say something like "I'll never give a patient with X disease Y treatment again because last time I did that to a similar patient they had Z bad event happen". This may be wrong because it isn't consistent with the evidence OR may deny a patient a treatment that would help.

In general, situations like this do not lead to lawsuits however as they are within the range of acceptable medical practice and criticism of our decisions comes from within or from others who took care of the patient. Again, this is an inevitable part of medical practice, especially common in those who are taking care of very sick people. Over time, good physicians learn how to deal with these situations. They may remember some things they REALLY wish they'd done differently for a patient, but it shouldn't control how they practice medicine. There's a lot more I could say about this, but I hope this is a start.

Now, a second type of mistake, that I believe is less common, but does occur is when something is actually done that is unquestionably incorrect. This can be a wrong dose of a medication being given, the wrong medication being given or surgical errors that should not have occurred. There is certainly a "gray zone" between the first type of "I wish I had done it differently" mistake and "flat out undeniable" mistakes, but conceptually, it's useful to separate them.

In this case, an investigation can and should occur. Current thinking is that most of these mistakes are caused by multiple failures in the system. For example, if the wrong medicine is given based on an incorrect order, this should have been caught by the pharmacy and by the bedside nurse. but the person who wrote the order also has some of the blame. In preventing and evaluating these mistakes (often called "Sentinel events"), hospitals will look at every step of the system and try to figure out how to prevent them. Although not everyone will make one of these mistakes as a physician, just making one is not the end of ones career. That is, most people will write a medicine dose wrong at some point, and usually it is caught or causes no harm. Even if it isn't caught and some harm occurs, usually the person will not lose their license, although certainly a malpractice case is a risk.

As practicing physicians, we come to understand that the risk of mistake is inherent in our practice of medicine. The more patients we see, the sicker they are, the more likely a bad outcome is for some of them. Thus, we or others may consider "mistakes" to have occurred. Our patients rely on us to do the best we can, but we also have to learn how to both limit mistakes AND to learn from those we (or our colleagues) make.

To return to tort reform, an interesting topic and one hotly debated throughout the medical world, I am doubtful that it will lead to a decrease in what is called "defensive" medicine. I have some doubts as to what is actually defensive medicine however - one's view of this changes with time as well. That however, wasn't the point of this thread.
 
If you can't understand a difference between practice patterns and practice locations, I guess there's really not much left to talk about.

Gee I don't know, I think OB/GYNs not delivering babies any longer would constitute a change in practice pattern. Wouldn't you, Dr resident practicing physician? :rolleyes:
 
On TV I keep seeing stuff like a surgeon outright leaving entire tools or gloves inside a patient before stitching them up.

Please tell me that it doesn't really ever happen.
Yes, it can occur if the operating room staff is not careful.

It has happened before, and will happen again.

One of the difficult truths. But it's no one's fault, really. Well, it is, but humans aren't perfect.
 
Yes, it can occur if the operating room staff is not careful.

It has happened before, and will happen again.

One of the difficult truths. But it's no one's fault, really. Well, it is, but humans aren't perfect.

you make me lol
 
Gee I don't know, I think OB/GYNs not delivering babies any longer would constitute a change in practice pattern. Wouldn't you, Dr resident practicing physician? :rolleyes:

No.

Obviously.
 
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