Do I have a chance or should I just give up (PharmD to MD/DO)

[jschuet]

I am a current P3 student who is looking to apply to medical school after graduating from pharmacy school in 2016. I have my B.A. in Chemistry with a 3.13 GPA with a significantly higher GPA my last couple semesters when I became serious about becoming a health professional. My GPA in pharmacy school is in the 3.2 range and I would be able to obtain some good LORs from faculty at my school. Should I even consider applying directly to any MD/DO programs or would I be better served doing a post-bacc or should I just give up hope and just stick with pharmacy?

Thanks,
John

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[BestDoctorEver]

I am a current P3 student who is looking to apply to medical school after graduating from pharmacy school in 2016. I have my B.A. in Chemistry with a 3.13 GPA with a significantly higher GPA my last couple semesters when I became serious about becoming a health professional. My GPA in pharmacy school is in the 3.2 range and I would be able to obtain some good LORs from faculty at my school. Should I even consider applying directly to any MD/DO programs or would I be better served doing a post-bacc or should I just give up hope and just stick with pharmacy?

Thanks,
John

If you are ok with DO, you might not need a postbacc as long as you can get 28+ MCAT... Your PharmD degree might be a plus for DO, but not so for MD.

 

[jschuet]

I am interested in anesthesiology, does that make any difference? I know there are few osteopathic anesthesiology residency spots so I would probably apply for an allopathic residency with only 105 DO students getting matched in 2013.

 

[mik30102]

I am interested in anesthesiology, does that make any difference? I know there are few osteopathic anesthesiology residency spots so I would probably apply for an allopathic residency with only 105 DO students getting matched in 2013.

Even with DO you may want to bump that undergrad gpa up a bit by retaking classes in which you did the worse, especially since while you did not do bad in pharmacy school you also did not do amazing. A DO degree will not prevent you from becoming a anesthesiologist if you so desire. It is only a semi competitive residency. I know of several DO's who are anesthesiologists near me. If your positive this is what you want you better start doing some volunteering, shadowing, and working on obtaining a DO letter. Having IPPE/APPE experiences will not be enough. Feel free to pm me with any other questions!

 

[QofQuimica]

Without an MCAT score, no one can tell you what your chances are. However, the average GPA for med school matriculants is more in the 3.6-3.7 range. Given that your grades (including your pharmacy school grades) are not very competitive for medical school, yes, a post bac (whether formal or informal) is probably going to be necessary in your case. You should aim for a 3.8+ GPA in your post bac courses (and for the rest of your time in pharmacy school). You will also need medically related ECs (shadowing, clinical volunteering). Especially if you have loans for pharmacy school, I suggest that you plan on working as a pharmacist and doing the post-bac/clinical experience part time after you graduate. Realistically, you're looking at a time frame of two years post-pharmacy school in order to get all of this done and prepare yourself to apply, plus a glide year.

On a related note, why do you even want to go to medical school? It's not impossible, but it's going to take a lot of work and money to make your app competitive, especially given that your pharmacy grades aren't really any better than your UG grades. You also have yet to work as a pharmacist and therefore can't really know if you might be able to find a niche in pharmacy that you like. For example, have you considered being a hospital pharmacist or doing a pharmacy residency?

 

[jschuet]

I first wanted to be a doctor way back when I started taking courses after high school. I just was working too much at minimum wage job to realize how important studying was to get good grades and achieve my goals. I was immature like a lot of 20 year olds can be. I then started to get my grades back together but I did make some more mistakes too so that didn't help my GPA either. I didn't realize things like post-bacc and SMP existed when I decided to change to pharmacy because I thought I was a lost cause. I do currently work in a pharmacy and enjoy it. Just wanted to see opinions on what my chances are and what it could possibly take to accomplish it. I'm willing to do about an extra year after pharmacy school. What score on the new MCAT would I have to get to even consider pursuing this? If I took it and scored in the 40th percentile in each subsection I would shelve the idea and just get a job with Walmart.

 

[deleted346323]

If you retook some classes and got a high MCAT...I donno, like 32+? or whatever the equivalent would be on the new one, I think you'd have a shot at DO. You'd also have to get some extracurriculars under your belt...shadowing, volunteering, research, etc. But dude, stick with pharmacy if you like it.

 

[Goro]

I concur with my learned colleague Q 100%. Your grades simply are not competitive for MD schools, while are in the low acceptable range for DO schools. For them score in high 20s (or the equivalent in the new exam) and you should be fine. You're going to have to do better than the 40th percentile....that's about a 23-24, which is a red flag that one is at high risk for failing out of medical school, or failing Boards. You'll want in the 60th %ile, or higher.


What score on the new MCAT would I have to get to even consider pursuing this? If I took it and scored in the 40th percentile in each subsection I would shelve the idea and just get a job with Walmart.

 

[jschuet]

Right a score in the low 20's with my grades wouldn't cut it. I know my pharmacy school GPA isn't helping me, our grading scale goes A/B/C/F, so a lot of my B's are in the 85-89 range so instead of getting a B+/A-, I get a B. Not complaining but it doesn't help my cause. I am a resident of Ohio so would my best bet to apply to Ohio University?

 

[feeling-dizzy]

MCAT...MCAT...MCAT...your biggest hurdle would be the MCAT. I would consider you a non-trad like myself. The last physics I took was 6 yrs ago; chem was 8 years ago. So when I learn MCAT, it is most challenging for me to review those knowledges; I realize I have forgotten so much physics and chem (I was actually a tutor for those subjects and got all A too). Anyway, I did not take any additional classes since my uGPA is 3.77 (but my graduate GPA is only 3.1);and AACOMAS did not ask me to report my graduate GPA either; end up got a 30 in MCAT, was accepted to DO schools (which is all I want). In your case, It would not be a bad ideas to retake some basic science class to raise your GPA while refreshing memory for MCAT too.

 

[jschuet]

I recalculated my science GPA and don't really have any grades to replace. One of my poor grades is a functional anatomy class specific for the pre-pharm program I was in. 4 credit hours at a C- is my worst grade. Can't really go back and retake it to replace it. I will have to decide if I want to take the MCAT, probably in June or July.

 

[oldstock]

Good thread !!

 

[jschuet]

I have another question because everyone has been really helpful. My cousin and her husband went to Ohio U for med school. Do schools ask if you are related to anyone who went to the school you are applying to? If you don't then what would stop someone from shadowing their cousin or aunt/uncle for a letter of recommendation. My cousin doesn't have the same last name as me and no one would know that we were related unless I disclosed it. Just wondering, I wouldn't do it, too big of a risk of being caught in a lie. Sorry if this topic has been discussed before.

 

[oldstock]

I have another question because everyone has been really helpful. My cousin and her husband went to Ohio U for med school. Do schools ask if you are related to anyone who went to the school you are applying to? If you don't then what would stop someone from shadowing their cousin or aunt/uncle for a letter of recommendation. My cousin doesn't have the same last name as me and no one would know that we were related unless I disclosed it. Just wondering, I wouldn't do it, too big of a risk of being caught in a lie. Sorry if this topic has been discussed before.

you are not doing that as you know better. So why even ask ?? Just fuhgettaboutit

 

[W19]

I recalculated my science GPA and don't really have any grades to replace. One of my poor grades is a functional anatomy class specific for the pre-pharm program I was in. 4 credit hours at a C- is my worst grade. Can't really go back and retake it to replace it. I will have to decide if I want to take the MCAT, probably in June or July.

Retake a couple of classes you got C or lower to bump up your GPA... and 26+ MCAT should get you into a DO school...

 

[PharmStudent305]

Wow

I first wanted to be a doctor way back when I started taking courses after high school. I just was working too much at minimum wage job to realize how important studying was to get good grades and achieve my goals. I was immature like a lot of 20 year olds can be. I then started to get my grades back together but I did make some more mistakes too so that didn't help my GPA either. I didn't realize things like post-bacc and SMP existed when I decided to change to pharmacy because I thought I was a lost cause. I do currently work in a pharmacy and enjoy it.

wow its amazing how similar our lives and stories are. I too have always wanted to be a doctor. My I GPA is a little lower GPA at 2.8 in Biology, the reasons being pretty much the same as your reasons, minimum wage side jobs in college, a nagging time hogging girlfriend, immaturity, laziness, procrastination, etc.. I have currently been working as a pharmacy tech for about 15 months, I took the PCAT last November and got an 85th percentile.

But I still had this yearning to be an MD, so before applying to any Pharm schools I wanted to see what my chances were in Med School. I have been studying for the MCAT for the past 3 months and have recently been averaging 25's on practice tests. My time to improve my score was constrained with full time work. And i just literally took the real MCAT today Dec.6th. Depending on my score which will come in about 30-35 days, hopefully I scored in the high 20's or low 30's(the verbal section was very tough) and if i did then I will most likely do SMP or post baccalaureate. If my scores aren't that great then I will just bite the bullet and enter Pharm school.


The reason i dont just commit fully and pursue Pharm school is that I don't really like the retail side at all,and the hospital side of pharmacy seems a little slower paced and mundane to me when I volunteered and shadowed a hospital pharmacist. I know there is a nuclear Pharm, and a research side of Pharm but time will tell if I want to pursue those fields.

Wish you luck, I hope you find what really makes you happy.

 

[jschuet]

I wish I could replace some of those C's but 2 classes I have C's in are Calc I and 2 with both times getting a C. That is my worst subject of all time. So that is 8 credits that are stuck at a C. Then I have a C in genetics and Biochem 2, can't take those at a community college and retaking them at the state school I did my undergrad at would cost me 5,500 bucks. I also have to go on APPE rotations starting in May so I can't really take classes. Just going to have throw up a hail mary with the MCAT. I'm thinking anything equivalent to a 30 or a better on the new exam I will submit an application.

 

[W19]

I wish I could replace some of those C's but 2 classes I have C's in are Calc I and 2 with both times getting a C. That is my worst subject of all time. So that is 8 credits that are stuck at a C. Then I have a C in genetics and Biochem 2, can't take those at a community college and retaking them at the state school I did my undergrad at would cost me 5,500 bucks. I also have to go on APPE rotations starting in May so I can't really take classes. Just going to have throw up a hail mary with the MCAT. I'm thinking anything equivalent to a 30 or a better on the new exam I will submit an application.

Why can't you take them at a CC?

 

[jschuet]

Community colleges usually offer just freshman and sophomore level courses. The community college I started off at offered gen chem 1&2 and organic 1&2. At least that is how it is in Ohio I think.

 

[ehwhatsupdoc]

Community colleges usually offer just freshman and sophomore level courses. The community college I started off at offered gen chem 1&2 and organic 1&2. At least that is how it is in Ohio I think.

Retake calc 1 and calc 2 at the community college, should be easy peasy compared to a 4 year school as long as they allow you to use a graphing calculator. My 4 year school didn't allow but CC did. Also look at online classes for genetics and biochemistry. Check out SUNY learning network or your states equivalent. I think online is fine to replace any science that is not one of the main prereqs.

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

I am a current P3 student who is looking to apply to medical school after graduating from pharmacy school in 2016. I have my B.A. in Chemistry with a 3.13 GPA with a significantly higher GPA my last couple semesters when I became serious about becoming a health professional. My GPA in pharmacy school is in the 3.2 range and I would be able to obtain some good LORs from faculty at my school. Should I even consider applying directly to any MD/DO programs or would I be better served doing a post-bacc or should I just give up hope and just stick with pharmacy?

Thanks,
John

Let's not kid ourselves here . . . you saw the writing on the wall, put 2 and 2 together and figured out a pharmacy career has a short lifespan, right? Just kidding! =)

In all seriousness, good luck! You do what you gotta do... Just chiming in, SMPs can get really expensive (Most around $40-$50K annual tuition), MCAT prep courses are a thousand or two, applications and costs of traveling to interviews are another thousand or two, and then when you finally get your feet into medical school, tuition again is $25K-$50K for four years (dependent on your attendance of a public or private medical school). I've heard of some people customizing their own post-bac by taking upper division undergraduate science/engineering/math courses at a state university (~$10K annual tuition) to get the AMCAS GPA to a competitive level while avoiding the expensive SMP route. Maybe a liable option if you want to keep costs down?

 

[jschuet]

How many attempts do you have to replace a grade. I got a C in Calc 1 and 2 twice each, so I basically replaced my C with a C, go me. I thought you only had one chance at grade replacement.

 

[QofQuimica]

The more important question to ask is, why are you still getting Cs in calc after multiple attempts? Sounds like the first thing you need to do is revamp your study habits.

 

[jschuet]

This was during my early years of college work. I would have to believe that if I took them today I would do significantly better. I know I can't go back and change the past but if i had the motivation and interest in healthcare I have now I wouldn't be asking if my 3.2 gpa would cut itl. I am a completely different person at 26 than I was at 18, as are most people. Not all of us had an epiphany in the 8th grade that they wanted to be a doctor. Oh well, not complaining. Have to take responsibility for your actions and just accept it how it is.

 

[Digsbe]

I'm in a similar spot with similar grades. I finished u-grad with a 3.11 GPA majoring in molecular biology. I never failed any courses or made below a C but due to having to pay my own bills and not coming from a wealthy family I worked 20 hours or so per week throughout school in a pharmacy. There was also 2 semesters where my family had medical emergencies and my grandmother passed away where I had to drop a calc class (was taking max credit load) and made a few C's. I've made A's in some higher level science courses in Ugrad with more of an upward trend. I went into pharm school with the idea of clinical pharmacy in mind but the more I progress through the curriculum the more I feel like I want to be a physician after rotating with both pharmacists and physicians. Not docking on the pharmacy profession at all, but I feel like it may not be the best fit for me.

I'm also a P3 and my GPA in pharm school right now is a 3.25 and I'm hoping to bring that up in my remaining years (shooting for a 3.4 when I graduate). I'm mainly thinking of applying broadly to DO schools during my P4 year in rotations. I think it's funny, pharm school has required SIGNIFICANTLY more time and work than ugrad, I don't work in pharm school and spend most of my time studying, if I had the same pattern in ugrad I know my GPA would have been significantly better. Those 5-10 page tests in science courses covering introductory objective feel like nothing compared to 40 page biochem and biopharm exams in pharmacy school (not to mention the therapeutics exams...) I know my grades have been sub-par for most DO programs so I've been trying to load myself with as much EC activities as I can. I'm officer in my schools APhA-ASP chapter, I try to do as many service events as I can (and also because I really enjoy volunteering on the healthcare service events like immunization clinics and health fairs) and I did research in undergrad and presented work on 3 different occasions with one of those occasions winning a 1st place award for the work I presented. The science project worked on (along with other students) eventually got published and I'm currently looking into trying to do more science lab based research while I'm still here in pharm school.

Good luck to you as you finish out the Pharm.D. program and consider med school. I've been looking into things heavily and even though we'll rotate with physicians and in clinical settings it will be good to also shadow some outside of rotations, if you are aiming for DO school try shadowing a DO as well, some schools require DO LoRs and it also shows that you have a personal passion for the profession. I've talked with some med students too who swapped from other professions to medicine and one thing that ADCOMs were worried about were student motives and if they were truly committed to medicine or not. You'll have to make that decision for yourself and then show why medicine is your calling and why you're committed to it. I know in my case if all else fails I'll work as a pharmacist and try to retake some ugrad classes at a CC or other institution and then reapply the next year.

 

[oldstock]

I'm in a similar spot with similar grades. I finished u-grad with a 3.11 GPA majoring in molecular biology. I never failed any courses or made below a C but due to having to pay my own bills and not coming from a wealthy family I worked 20 hours or so per week throughout school in a pharmacy. There was also 2 semesters where my family had medical emergencies and my grandmother passed away where I had to drop a calc class (was taking max credit load) and made a few C's. I've made A's in some higher level science courses in Ugrad with more of an upward trend. I went into pharm school with the idea of clinical pharmacy in mind but the more I progress through the curriculum the more I feel like I want to be a physician after rotating with both pharmacists and physicians. Not docking on the pharmacy profession at all, but I feel like it may not be the best fit for me.

I'm also a P3 and my GPA in pharm school right now is a 3.25 and I'm hoping to bring that up in my remaining years (shooting for a 3.4 when I graduate). I'm mainly thinking of applying broadly to DO schools during my P4 year in rotations. I think it's funny, pharm school has required SIGNIFICANTLY more time and work than ugrad, I don't work in pharm school and spend most of my time studying, if I had the same pattern in ugrad I know my GPA would have been significantly better. I know my grades have been sub-par for most DO programs so I've been trying to load myself with as much EC activities as I can. I'm officer in my schools APhA-ASP chapter, I try to do as many service events as I can (and also because I really enjoy volunteering on the healthcare service events like immunization clinics and health fairs) and I did research in undergrad and presented work on 3 different occasions with one of those occasions winning a 1st place award for the work I presented. The science project worked on (along with other students) eventually got published and I'm currently looking into trying to do more science lab based research while I'm still here in pharm school.

Good luck to you as you finish out the Pharm.D. program and consider med school. I've been looking into things heavily and even though we'll rotate with physicians and in clinical settings it will be good to also shadow some outside of rotations, if you are aiming for DO school try shadowing a DO as well, some schools require DO LoRs and it also shows that you have a personal passion for the profession. I've talked with some med students too who swapped from other professions to medicine and one thing that ADCOMs were worried about were student motives and if they were truly committed to medicine or not. You'll have to make that decision for yourself and then show why medicine is your calling and why you're committed to it. I know in my case if all else fails I'll work as a pharmacist and try to retake some ugrad classes at a CC or other institution and then reapply the next year.

have you taken the MCAT yet ??

 

[Digsbe]

have you taken the MCAT yet ??

Not yet, I am still weighing pharmacy residency options as well (leaning more towards med right now though) and figuring out the financials of things (2 professional doctorate programs = lots of loans) but I will be registering for the new 2015 MCAT exam as soon as it opens. I'm shooting for the May 22 test date. My school doesn't allow for a summer break between P3 into P4 year so I'm only off a few weeks in May before rotations start in June. I'm hoping 5 months during school is sufficient time to prep for the exam and if my score is not as high as it should be I will retake it again later in the year on one of the Saturday test dates and focus on material I may not do so well in.

 

[oldstock]

Not yet, I am still weighing pharmacy residency options as well (leaning more towards med right now though) and figuring out the financials of things (2 professional doctorate programs = lots of loans) but I will be registering for the new 2015 MCAT exam as soon as it opens. I'm shooting for the May 22 test date. My school doesn't allow for a summer break between P3 into P4 year so I'm only off a few weeks in May before rotations start in June. I'm hoping 5 months during school is sufficient time to prep for the exam and if my score is not as high as it should be I will retake it again later in the year on one of the Saturday test dates and focus on material I may not do so well in.

I am debating on rushing to take the old MCAT (if I can still find a seat; and prob do not have much time studying) or take the new MCAT at a later which would allow more time for preparation (but prob the new MCAT is harder ??) and I do know how to prep for the new MCAT yet... (If someone could point me to the right direction, it would be greatly appreciated...)

imho, if you decided to do pharmacy residency, you would get stuck in pharmacy forever as you will lose even more time idk... but maybe you might be able to squeeze good money out of your pharmacy career and start some business and get out of this whole rat race...

 

[Digsbe]

I am debating on rushing to take the old MCAT (if I can still find a seat; and prob do not have much time studying) or take the new MCAT at a later which would allow more time for preparation (but prob the new MCAT is harder ??) and I do know how to prep for the new MCAT yet... (If someone could point me to the right direction, it would be greatly appreciated...)

imho, if you decided to do pharmacy residency, you would get stuck in pharmacy forever as you will lose even more time idk... but maybe you might be able to squeeze good money out of your pharmacy career and start some business and get out of this whole rat race...

I've looked into the old one and started registering about a month ago, unfortunately there were no spots outside of Guam or Canada so it likely won't be possible to take.

I'm looking at MCAT study products, one of my friends in med school gave me all his old MCAT books but I might buy the Kaplan study prep set for roughly $150 and use those for review. I don't really know how else to prep for it beyond shelling out several thousand for MCAT classes.

 

[feeling-dizzy]

I've looked into the old one and started registering about a month ago, unfortunately there were no spots outside of Guam or Canada so it likely won't be possible to take.

I'm looking at MCAT study products, one of my friends in med school gave me all his old MCAT books but I might buy the Kaplan study prep set for roughly $150 and use those for review. I don't really know how else to prep for it beyond shelling out several thousand for MCAT classes.

You do not really need MCAT classes; it would be nice to have though. I only use a few review books and purchase couple AAMC old exam online. My friend purchased the course online but when I look at it, nothing in those course that not in the review books. It is more matter if you invest a lot of time to study though

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

I've looked into the old one and started registering about a month ago, unfortunately there were no spots outside of Guam or Canada so it likely won't be possible to take.

I'm looking at MCAT study products, one of my friends in med school gave me all his old MCAT books but I might buy the Kaplan study prep set for roughly $150 and use those for review. I don't really know how else to prep for it beyond shelling out several thousand for MCAT classes.

Looks like the key to the old and new MCAT is mastering the VR section. Even with the new changes, the fundamental skill and common factor in doing well is critically reading and processing difficult passages. I'm going to get my hand on the old AAMC VR sections, EK and Kaplan VR sections. Looks like the new psych/sociology section is VR in disguise, if you will.

As for the sciences, I'll just take what the prep courses release in 2015. Seems like the learning curve in the sciences is nowhere near as steep as Verbal Reasoning, so I'm not sweating the changes all too much.

 

[oldstock]

Looks like the key to the old and new MCAT is mastering the VR section. Even with the new changes, the fundamental skill and common factor in doing well is critically reading and processing difficult passages. I'm going to get my hand on the old AAMC VR sections, EK and Kaplan VR sections. Looks like the new psych/sociology section is VR in disguise, if you will.

As for the sciences, I'll just take what the prep courses release in 2015. Seems like the learning curve in the sciences is nowhere near as steep as Verbal Reasoning, so I'm not sweating the changes all too much.

thanks for that wisdom !!

 

[jschuet]

I'm looking at my options for taking calculus this spring and I don't have any options in the area to do it. Is an online calculus class frowned upon?

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

I'm looking at my options for taking calculus this spring and I don't have any options in the area to do it. Is an online calculus class frowned upon?

I took a biology course on human development through the internet with my school, never on the official transcript did it say the course was taken online. Check with your school tomorrow during business hours to confirm, might be different from school to school. Just don't take it at the University of Phoenix .

 

[Digsbe]

I've noticed lots of schools are increasing with their "adult" programs (I hate the naming, I think all students should be treated as "adults" and stop fostering the idea of immature college kid behavior) making it easier for working professionals to take classes at night or online through state and private universities. If all else fails I think you could probably work with your PharmD and take one or two courses per semester on a schedule that fits with your job if you need to retake courses. That's what I'll do if I wind up in that position.

 

[jschuet]

What is the latest MCAT I could take to still be considered an early applicant? Taking the MCAT in June would have my scores released on July 17th or 18th. Or should I take it in May and get my scores released on June 30th. I want to take the MCAT as late as possible but I don't want to apply too late as I don't have the most stellar application. Any suggestions?

 

[W19]

What is the latest MCAT I could take to still be considered an early applicant? Taking the MCAT in June would have my scores released on July 17th or 18th. Or should I take it in May and get my scores released on June 30th. I want to take the MCAT as late as possible but I don't want to apply too late as I don't have the most stellar application. Any suggestions?

It will be early for DO and ok for MD... Even taking it in August is still ok for DO.

 

[jschuet]

I just want my application to be one of the first they see and think, hey this guy is all right. Let's give him an interview.