Menu Icon Search
Close Search

About the ads

  1. If you prefer the SDN Blue style, go to the bottom left of the page and select "SDN Blue"

DO, MD, Caribbean MD

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical Osteopathic [ DO ]' started by aspDO, 06.19.12.

  1. aspDO

    aspDO

    Joined:
    06.02.12
    Messages:
    179
    Status:
    Pre-Medical

    SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)
    I'm only applying to DO schools this year.

    Why many MDs (students, residents, attendings) first reject CaribbeanMD > DO, but then all of a sudden start looking down upon to DO schools in any thread/conversation when commenting about competitive ACGME residency programs?

    If letters of M.D. are that important for competitive ACGME residency programs (even surgical residency programs), then isn't CaribbeanMD > DO?
  2. notbobtrustme

    notbobtrustme Crux Terminatus

    Joined:
    06.28.11
    Messages:
    3,082
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    There is a stigma about studying in the Caribbean for an MD. The deck is stacked against you as well.
  3. dntke1518

    dntke1518

    Joined:
    08.04.10
    Messages:
    1,211
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Oh lord... some things never die.
  4. aspDO

    aspDO

    Joined:
    06.02.12
    Messages:
    179
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    Couldn't get what you mean. Please, open up.
  5. Mbeas

    Mbeas Hi I'm Kate

    Joined:
    01.18.10
    Messages:
    2,123
    Location:
    Amurica
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    No.

    /thread
  6. serenade

    serenade Medical Alchemist

    Joined:
    11.10.09
    Messages:
    12,059
    Location:
    Lior, Amastris
    Status:
    Medical Student (Accepted)
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    There's about a million threads on this topic and statistics showing that Carib MD is significantly disadvantaged compared to DO in every possible way. Regarding ACGME there is a significant bias against Carib MD graduates in most residencies, significantly more so than for US DO students. So point being MD>DO>>>>>>>>> Carib MD.
  7. HalfListic

    HalfListic _______________

    Joined:
    05.19.12
    Messages:
    2,569
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    you're going to get yelled at for not searching for this answer...its pretty easy to research this yourself.

    Im feeling nice though, so Ill give you an overview-very general.

    Really, no one who matters cares what your letters are. what matters is what your residency options will be. As it is now, its easier to specialize as a US MD, the next easiest is US DO and the third is Caribbean MD. The match numbers are somewhere at 90%, upper 80% and around 50% respectively so Caribbean MD is really only a good choice if you know you want primary care and can't get a domestic school to accept you-in my opinion (or you really like the beach;)
  8. Prncssbuttercup

    Prncssbuttercup Established Member -- OMSIII

    Joined:
    07.15.10
    Messages:
    2,909
    Location:
    Where ever I am, I wish I was in Breckenridge CO
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
  9. Night Hawk

    Night Hawk ICEMAN was taken...

    Joined:
    05.15.12
    Messages:
    582
    Location:
    Florida
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    There goes 60 seconds of my life
  10. Dharma

    Dharma

    Joined:
    08.12.10
    Messages:
    1,819
    Location:
    The Path of the Righteous, man.
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member

    +1
  11. DocEspana

    DocEspana I shall cast a spell on your roster

    Joined:
    03.01.10
    Messages:
    12,547
    Location:
    New York
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    oh, b-t-dubs for anyone reading this thread still: the ama full delegation just passed strong anti Caribbean policy seeking state and federal legislation that will try to prevent or limit the pay to play business of the carribean schools in american hospitals.

    exact language to come tomorrow. I'm too damn tired and busy to do it right now
  12. MedPR

    MedPR

    Joined:
    12.01.11
    Messages:
    18,692
    Status:
    Pre-Podiatry

    Good point, sir. Thank you for your incite; you are a gentleman and a scholar.
  13. aspDO

    aspDO

    Joined:
    06.02.12
    Messages:
    179
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    Thanks for the posts!

    However, my question was about MD-world's attitude: although everyone tells MD >= DO >>>>> CaribMD, when times come to discuss residency programs, table turns like being MD >>> DO. Why is that?

    Is there anything superior with ACGME residencies compared to AOA residencies?

    Do most hospitals/groups favor those physicians having ACGME residency? (honestly, nothing else comes to mind other than that.)
  14. aspDO

    aspDO

    Joined:
    06.02.12
    Messages:
    179
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    No sir, I'm not inciting anything. I'm only applying to DO schools. If you call it as incite!
  15. MedPR

    MedPR

    Joined:
    12.01.11
    Messages:
    18,692
    Status:
    Pre-Podiatry
    False, since you created this thread.
  16. johnnydrama

    johnnydrama I'm no Superman

    Joined:
    06.13.06
    Messages:
    9,317
    SDN 7+ Year Member
    What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.
  17. aspDO

    aspDO

    Joined:
    06.02.12
    Messages:
    179
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    Igniting DO, then, huh?
  18. MedPR

    MedPR

    Joined:
    12.01.11
    Messages:
    18,692
    Status:
    Pre-Podiatry
    [​IMG]
  19. poopyhead

    poopyhead

    Joined:
    01.30.10
    Messages:
    329
    Status:
    Non-Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Why did I think of this :shrug:

    [​IMG]
  20. aspDO

    aspDO

    Joined:
    06.02.12
    Messages:
    179
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    This is my understanding, brother/sister..

    [​IMG]
  21. docmayer

    docmayer

    Joined:
    06.20.11
    Messages:
    583
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    OP isn't asking what's better, DO or carib MD. He's saying that some MDs look down upon DOs, yet those same MDs are the ones who say go DO instead of carib MD. He's asking why they look down upon DO but not carib MDs. :confused:
  22. dntke1518

    dntke1518

    Joined:
    08.04.10
    Messages:
    1,211
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    :clap:
  23. aspDO

    aspDO

    Joined:
    06.02.12
    Messages:
    179
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    Thanks for the support. I don't get why people exacerbate something else..

    MDs tell DO is equal, and then here comes ACGME's news.. please, read it yourselves.
  24. aspDO

    aspDO

    Joined:
    06.02.12
    Messages:
    179
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    [​IMG]
  25. DocEspana

    DocEspana I shall cast a spell on your roster

    Joined:
    03.01.10
    Messages:
    12,547
    Location:
    New York
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Easy peasy stuff. If you are talking about MD vs DO in general...

    MD =/> DO >> Offshore. There may or may not be a bias against DOs, but its closer to what a low teir MD school would face. It simply an acknowledgement of not being from a more name-brand school. And offshore is generally see as an actual discrimination which is very legit an very measurable.

    If you're talking about MD vs DO among old cranky docs

    US-MD >> DO > Offshore. The guys who look down on DOs will do so for no good reason BUT!! They will still have a slightly stronger bias against offshore students. Its just going to be how it works. In this case DO and offshore are closer than USMD and DO... but DO still > Offshore despite them being closer.

    If you're referring to everyone's love affair with ACGME (MD) residencies. Thats rather simply actually. AOA residencies have very few large university hospitals under their perview. They have plenty of mid-level and plenty of crappy places. ACGME has (nearly) all the large university programs and has its own huge number of mid level and crappy programs. We gravitate towards ACGME as a bit of a prestige/badge of honor. In reality, if youre at a mid level program (and it *is actually* mid-level. not that you just say its mid level) its rather irrelevant if its ACGME or AOA. If you're at a crappy program its irrelevant if its ACGME or AOA. It does sort of feel better to say its a mid level ACGME, but functionally i dont think it makes a lick of a difference. Now if you get into a notable ACGME university hospital residency, then good for you! Thats worthy of note.
  26. serenade

    serenade Medical Alchemist

    Joined:
    11.10.09
    Messages:
    12,059
    Location:
    Lior, Amastris
    Status:
    Medical Student (Accepted)
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Well this pertains to DO's who do their internship year in the AOA match and then want to do a PGY-2 residency such as PM&R, etc or if they do an ACGME fellowship ( Though many aren't accredited by the ACGME). There are no barriers for DO's currently to do a PGY-1 internship for their PGY-2 residencies.
  27. aspDO

    aspDO

    Joined:
    06.02.12
    Messages:
    179
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    Cool stuff, thanks.

    How do you think ACGME might try later to push its graduates as attending physicians in hospitals to block AOA graduate physicians? If it doesn't have such drama in its, God knows what, agenda, then what's this fuss all about?
  28. aspDO

    aspDO

    Joined:
    06.02.12
    Messages:
    179
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    Then, one should start at the internship year at an ACGME program, or else cannot continue with ACGME later on? So, basically stay in AOA/ACGME program from start to finish. Right?
  29. donkeykong1

    donkeykong1

    Joined:
    06.01.09
    Messages:
    1,141
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    What in the world? this has nothing to do with attendings. physician recruitment agencies don't care whether one finished an aoa or acgme program (both funded by medicare).

    also there are many, many fellowships not accredited under the aoa nor the acgme
  30. johnnydrama

    johnnydrama I'm no Superman

    Joined:
    06.13.06
    Messages:
    9,317
    SDN 7+ Year Member
    As DocEspana said, although MD is only >= DO for school, ACGME >> AOA for residency.

    The ACGME is considering shutting out residents from the questionable AOA residencies from ACGME fellowships.

    There may be a couple of AOA residencies that are alright, but they're the exception, not the rule. So the possible ACGME policy does make some sense.
  31. serenade

    serenade Medical Alchemist

    Joined:
    11.10.09
    Messages:
    12,059
    Location:
    Lior, Amastris
    Status:
    Medical Student (Accepted)
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    How? It's not like they can't penalize the program or cut their funding. The reality is that a program director will pick the students who are the best for their program and based on their school's performance history.
  32. johnnydrama

    johnnydrama I'm no Superman

    Joined:
    06.13.06
    Messages:
    9,317
    SDN 7+ Year Member
    Yes they do. They care whether you went to MGH vs BUMC for residency, so yes, they will definitely care about the distinction between ACGME and AOA residencies.
  33. serenade

    serenade Medical Alchemist

    Joined:
    11.10.09
    Messages:
    12,059
    Location:
    Lior, Amastris
    Status:
    Medical Student (Accepted)
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    I'm curious, aren't many fellowships not accredited by the ACGME formally but rather alternative organizations? Will they be affected?
  34. HalfListic

    HalfListic _______________

    Joined:
    05.19.12
    Messages:
    2,569
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    This may be true in certain situations but not so much if you go private practice it's not as big of a deal.
  35. johnnydrama

    johnnydrama I'm no Superman

    Joined:
    06.13.06
    Messages:
    9,317
    SDN 7+ Year Member
    By yourself? Sure, as long as your patients don't care.

    In a PP group practice? Yes, it still matters.
  36. donkeykong1

    donkeykong1

    Joined:
    06.01.09
    Messages:
    1,141
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    No. being BC or BE, licensed in the state, no prior suits, and experience matter. if you're talking about academic/research posts then yes it definitely does matter where your training was done
  37. johnnydrama

    johnnydrama I'm no Superman

    Joined:
    06.13.06
    Messages:
    9,317
    SDN 7+ Year Member
    They won't be.
  38. donkeykong1

    donkeykong1

    Joined:
    06.01.09
    Messages:
    1,141
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    Nope
  39. qwerty2012

    qwerty2012

    Joined:
    02.22.12
    Messages:
    432
    Caribbean MD is a NoNOnoONo. You will get the last spot in trying to get a residency.
  40. johnnydrama

    johnnydrama I'm no Superman

    Joined:
    06.13.06
    Messages:
    9,317
    SDN 7+ Year Member
    To be fair, the top of SGU's class has historically done well, although that may not be the case in the future.

    Radiology may be a particularly DO unfriendly specialty, but it seems to be more friendly to FMGs than DOs, at least from what I observed on the interview trail.
  41. qwerty2012

    qwerty2012

    Joined:
    02.22.12
    Messages:
    432
    good board scores/good clinical grades/research experiences/well connected LORs. > where the degree is from. nuff said. lol
  42. aspDO

    aspDO

    Joined:
    06.02.12
    Messages:
    179
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    After what's been written above, I'm not buying all this any more.

    All is looking like this:

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: 06.19.12
  43. aspDO

    aspDO

    Joined:
    06.02.12
    Messages:
    179
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    That's given me a cold feet because I don't feel like I'll be opening my private practice right after the residency. I think I'll pay my dues for some time in a hospital and/or group practice long before going solo. Oh, well..
  44. DocEspana

    DocEspana I shall cast a spell on your roster

    Joined:
    03.01.10
    Messages:
    12,547
    Location:
    New York
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    I think this will not happen at all. The drama doesn't exist in their agenda. I think you're letting hype and rumor give you a false sense of what the reality is. There is little fuss. It's not all 100% equal, but its also something that most people barely ever notice uness they have some crazy unrealistic expectations or spend all their life cowering in fear of exaggerated word of mouth issues.
  45. necronomicon

    necronomicon

    Joined:
    08.02.10
    Messages:
    127
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    I thought recent match lists have shown a propensity in DO's matching radiology (lots of ACGME placements, as well). From what I remember seeing, the "top" DO schools placed more into ACGME positions than AOA...but I could be mistaken.
  46. Whiskeypunch

    Whiskeypunch

    Joined:
    06.11.11
    Messages:
    211
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    That's because the AOA has very few radiology spots only like 35 vs 1100 for ACGME. 59 DO's matched to ACGME programs (http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf) so yeah more DO's are going ACGME than AOA.

    In contrast only 44 IMG's matched to diagnostic radiology, and the applicant pool for IMG's versus DO's to radiology has got to be dramatically larger.
    Last edited: 06.20.12
  47. se20001984

    se20001984

    Joined:
    03.30.08
    Messages:
    491
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    SDN 5+ Year Member

    you mean the students that were actually able to graduate...

    or the others who ended up ruining their lives and going head first into massive debt

    im guessing u mean the 1st part...yea that 1 guy in radio did it!! he represents the entire school...riteeee..what is the rad acceptance of img?...0.00001%? (dont forget we have 2-3 admission cycles of the islands- with expanded campuses)

    and stigma exists for all schools..what about harvard or yale vs XXX school...you dont think theres a stigma there..you mention res spots that MOST mds cannot get into to compare the education..load of balony!!

    id also like someone to do a stat of DOs being lower than MDs...im almost certain that it is the "tails" of top teir medical school holding up the stats for the higher average gpa and mcat scores....the top 10% will always be the expection regardless (considering that mcats are a scaled score...and gpa ...is gpa (there are many schools)

    ps..from the posts ive read...your going to be a great doctor...

    now go back to your plant biology
  48. HalfListic

    HalfListic _______________

    Joined:
    05.19.12
    Messages:
    2,569
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Don't let it bother you...Johnny D knows a lot about some things, but talks about everything with the same level of confidence. This is one of the instances where his bias blinds him...and he's wrong.

    In private practice (and of course, this means groups practice) the person hiring cares a lot more about how much you want to make. They will not really understand or care about AOA vs ACGME and will assume you are a trained professional, which you will be.

    The only place MD helps over DO is getting certain residencies (fellowships)...
  49. cliquesh

    cliquesh

    Joined:
    11.02.07
    Messages:
    2,545
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    I agree with you for the most part, but it does matter to some degree. My attending right now, who is the dept. chair of surgery of some average community hospital in a big city, told me he will only hire people who went to "top programs" because the job market is so saturated in the city that he can pick whomever he wants. But, keep in mind, the hospital is in a desirable location and we are currently recovering from a recession.

    It's really not a big deal as long as you're flexible.
    Last edited: 06.21.12
  50. HalfListic

    HalfListic _______________

    Joined:
    05.19.12
    Messages:
    2,569
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    I think you missed the private practice caveat...

// Share //

Style: SDN Universal