The problem is most people necessarily haven't met an "unhappy" OD. I know I haven't met one that actually shows their unhappiness, if they did, they wouldn't have many patients. An OD on the first day of meeting him or her is not going to say how much they dislike their job. Recently there was a poll taken on OD's on Facebook not too long ago. Granted I know not every optometrist answered the poll and it's a small sample size. The majority of optometrists concluded that they would not recommend an OD degree to their children or anyone else. Yes I know there was a good amount that still would recommend an OD degree, but the consensus was to stay away and pick another career. I feel like that speaks volumes to people entering the profession. Someone who has been practicing and already sees what's ahead down the road and giving a friendly warning. I probably would have been an optometrist in the 1980s but times have changed dramatically from where it was, to where it is now.
DO NOT BECOME AN OPTOMETRIST!! Believe me, I wanted to be one too!
- Thread starter Cesar21
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I think more ODs are worried about the direction things are headed, rather than secretly hiding their hatred of the profession.
I completely agree with you
Thanks to everyone who has personal messaged me lately. My mailbox has been overflowing with people who are in the optometry application process right now and I have helped many people switch to dentistry. I wish you all the best luck. Sorry I haven't responded to everyone yet recently, there has been a lot of messages this past week to go through. Still trying to answer everyone's questions. Which I am always more than happy to and to give any advice where needed. I appreciate your interest, and I will try to get back to you all as soon as possible hopefully by Wednesday. First semester of Dental school is picking up with about 4 tests a week till the end but I honestly love what I am doing. Lab work is a lot of fun. We started using the drill this week and are practicing with that. Dentistry combines the art with a patient experience and I love it. Honestly switching to dentistry was one of the best decisions of my life. I just have to get through these rough two years then we will be primarily in clinic for 3rd and 4th year then I will be out!
Yesterday it was great getting a text from a buddy because he wanted my "optometry opinion" on his Warby Parker samples, to see which ones fit his face the best. He got I think 5 or 6 pairs of glasses to try on. Then he either can trade them out for a couple others to try on, or he can tell Warby Parker which ones he wants his prescription in. I obviously told him that he should support a local optometrist, but he said this is just easier and way cheaper than he has ever paid. That's the problem with this next generation. They want everything cheaper and easier and there is just no value anymore getting an Optometry degree. Another thing that I saw recently was that CVS Pharmacy is going to now add eye exams and an optical dispensary. Once this concept is accepted, this could spread to each CVS across the nation. This is just unfortunate because optometry is following the same path of pharmacy. It is becoming cheaper in the eyes of the customer (patient) and they will continue to not value your service, because they virtually can get glasses anywhere. Not to be doom and gloom, but that is just the reality. Keep your questions coming, because I am more than happy to answer anything. Hope you all have a great week.
http://www.chainstoreage.com/article/cvspharmacy-brings-hearing-optical-services-store
Yesterday it was great getting a text from a buddy because he wanted my "optometry opinion" on his Warby Parker samples, to see which ones fit his face the best. He got I think 5 or 6 pairs of glasses to try on. Then he either can trade them out for a couple others to try on, or he can tell Warby Parker which ones he wants his prescription in. I obviously told him that he should support a local optometrist, but he said this is just easier and way cheaper than he has ever paid. That's the problem with this next generation. They want everything cheaper and easier and there is just no value anymore getting an Optometry degree. Another thing that I saw recently was that CVS Pharmacy is going to now add eye exams and an optical dispensary. Once this concept is accepted, this could spread to each CVS across the nation. This is just unfortunate because optometry is following the same path of pharmacy. It is becoming cheaper in the eyes of the customer (patient) and they will continue to not value your service, because they virtually can get glasses anywhere. Not to be doom and gloom, but that is just the reality. Keep your questions coming, because I am more than happy to answer anything. Hope you all have a great week.
http://www.chainstoreage.com/article/cvspharmacy-brings-hearing-optical-services-store
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Oh look it's the same Cesar post again worded slightly differently.
I understand you think the profession sucks, dentistry is way better, etc. etc. but I'm curious what makes you so persistent to switch people over on an online board. Did your ex cheat on you with an optometrist?
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I haven't been on SDN for a while, but was told about the post and wanted to address some of the things I see here.
I am a new OD. I graduated in 2013. I finished school with nearly 200K debt from undergrad and grad. I practice in California, arguably one of the highest cost of living and highly OD saturated areas. Living modestly I will very easily be able to pay off my loans in 6 years total (and could have done 4 if I were much more aggressive). At which point I’ll be debt free and easily earning in the top 5% of single income earners in the US.
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You bring up some valid points, I just want to make sure you're not embellishing too much to drive your narrative.
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In summary, there are challenges to the profession. The fact that new schools opening up is potentially problem for a lot of professions although Dentistry does seem to have somehow “solved” the problem and the problem seems to be amplifying more in optometry the past few years. There are more lucrative career options than optometry. There are also worse options. Picking a career is a difficult process and a lot of things need to be considered but the process is a lot more complicated than “optometry sucks, do dentistry instead.” In the end, optometry has treated me well so far. I think it can be a great career option for bright young individuals, but it would be helpful to understand the potential challenges they have ahead of them for any career they're considering using factual data.
I am a new OD. I graduated in 2013. I finished school with nearly 200K debt from undergrad and grad. I practice in California, arguably one of the highest cost of living and highly OD saturated areas. Living modestly I will very easily be able to pay off my loans in 6 years total (and could have done 4 if I were much more aggressive). At which point I’ll be debt free and easily earning in the top 5% of single income earners in the US.
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You bring up some valid points, I just want to make sure you're not embellishing too much to drive your narrative.
"Many private practices have closed down in my affluent Midwest town, because they couldn't compete with commercial and the growing online demand."
In my short career, I’ve only heard of 1 office closing down completely. And that was secondary to the fact that the OD had a heart attack at 65, was only seeing about 25 patients a week (semiretired) and didn’t want to go through the hassle of selling the practice. Some practices may not be as profitable as they were in the past, but good practices adapt, bad practices take home less money. I think for the OD entrepreneur to just close shop would take multiple repeated years in the red (losing money) and I just don’t see that happening."Optometrists don't make money for their eye exams that cost 50 bucks, but instead it comes from glasses and contact sales which are being taken away"
Relatively true. In our parent’s generation the bulk of the revenue came from optical sales. It was very easy for a practice to thrive on just refraction and optical sales. That’s why some retailers offered a “free eye exam” to get the patients in the door and make up the revenue by optical sales. That was a huge disservice to the profession and likely is still the reason why the public’s perception of an eye exam is skewed. However, not all eye exams cost $50. We charged $195 for our eye exams. We charged a fair price for our professional fees, special testing (when indicated), as well as materials."Another issue is that there is just way too many optometry schools, and two more that are supposed to be opening this year."
This is a great point. This is one of my biggest fears about the profession and it does need to be addressed, but I don’t know who can or will be able to do anything about it."Even commercial places near me are decreasing their starting wages every year for new employed optometrists, because they know that there is already too many optometrists looking for work….. Ive seen job ads near me list a starting wage of 60k."
This is one of those cases where I would love for you to cite your sources. How do you know what the wages have been at the commercial places, and how do you know it’s been decreasing? At this point I’ve been in the industry for ~8 years, 2.5 of which I’ve been a licensed OD, and I don’t have access to this information. 60K for a full time job? Who would advertise that they’re paying 60K? Who would this person expect to apply for a job only paying 60K?"I did not go to 4 years more after college to learn a lot of pointless things that I won't use (because no corporate setting has any medical treatment)"
Sorry, but every professional school will teach “pointless things” they won’t use most of the time. Dentistry is no exception. I guarantee you every profession on here remembers a lecturer saying “This isn’t important, but you’ll need to memorize it for boards/step/etc.” Implying that ODs (regardless of setting) don’t treat medically is ignorant and offensive. You’re so off the mark on this one I don’t know where to start."If you are still on the fence join "ODs on Facebook". You will then see some of the crap that optometrists share."
ODs on FB is like a work water cooler. Personally, I enjoy it more for the clinical content I see on there, but anytime you get a group together they’re going to commiserate on the common struggles.---------------------------
In summary, there are challenges to the profession. The fact that new schools opening up is potentially problem for a lot of professions although Dentistry does seem to have somehow “solved” the problem and the problem seems to be amplifying more in optometry the past few years. There are more lucrative career options than optometry. There are also worse options. Picking a career is a difficult process and a lot of things need to be considered but the process is a lot more complicated than “optometry sucks, do dentistry instead.” In the end, optometry has treated me well so far. I think it can be a great career option for bright young individuals, but it would be helpful to understand the potential challenges they have ahead of them for any career they're considering using factual data.
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Another logic defying posting.
Please explain this article:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/guys-wait-2-hours-spend-161547596.html
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Again, I am highly skeptical of most of his or her claims.
1) It is inconceivable that someone who is NOT an optometrist, heck not even finished school of ANY kind would KNOW many optometrists and in fact knows SO MANY optometrists that "many of them have left the field because they couldn't stand it any more."
2) There is no way that this 1st year dental student would have any clue as to why "many private practices have closed down." I have a practice in CT and we had been looking for a full timer offering a six figure salary with benefits and we had a terrible time finding someone. We finally did and she's doing great so we're happy about that but maybe some of his "many friends who are optometrists (HA!)" would like to send me a PM and we can discuss.
3) Warby Parker and Zenni are no competition to me. You are right about one thing as it relates to that.....you can't compete with them. So don't. There is a certain percentage of people who make decisions based on price and price alone. Don't cater to those people because you'll never win them over as someone will always be offering something for $0.22 less.
Think of it this way......how is the Ritz Carlton able to stay in business when there is Motel 6 and Red Roof Inns all over the USA that offer reasonably clean, comfortable rooms for a fraction of the cost? How does a company like Rolex exist? How do they manage to sell watches for $10,000 when you can get a $40 Timex that will tell you the time just as well? How does BMW stay in business when you can get a Honda Civic that will get you from A to B just as easily? How is Apple able to stay in business when you can get smart phones for fractions of the cost? Well....your goal should be to be the Ritz Carlton or the Rolex store, not the BOGO place and the "two pairs for $69." It's a fools game. And believe it or not, it's surprisingly easy to do in health care because so many other doctors (of all types) are simply too stupid to realize that there are millions of people out there willing to pay premium prices for a premium product and a premium EXPERIENCE. Your job is to provide that environment and that experience.
4) There's some legitimacy there about the schools. The new schools are not needed. But again, I've got a successful private practice in CT, looking to hire a full time doctor at a six figure salary and we're having a hell of a time. Everyone wants to be in Los Angeles or New York City. Regarding being a corporate slave, there's plenty of that in dentistry too. Aspen Dental, Delta Dental, Columbia Dental, et. al. Dentistry has been behind the bell curve on this issue and good for them but their time will come. Simply do a search for "corporate dentistry" and you'll get thousands of hits.
I am also skeptical that his mailbox is "overflowing" with people he's steered away from optometry and that he's got all sorts of "friends" texting him for recommendations on Warby Parker. I'm simply not buying it. That is just hyperbole to try to make his point. Of course, it's very convenient on an internet forum where we're all anonymous and there is absolutely no way to verify his claims. The standard response probably will be "I don't care what you say, I know it's true." Again, not buying it and I'd recommend that the readers of this forum regard anything he says with a very very high amount of suspicion.
I still can't shake this feeling that Jason K is risen.
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Cesar, not everyone is looking for the lowest price. There are in fact people in this country who value quality patient care, and feel a sense of loyalty to their healthcare providers who give them that experience. Your friend asked you about Warby Parker because he wants the lowest price. My super-frugal Mother is loyal to her Optometrist despite the option to get cheaper eyewear from Wal-Mart. Uh-oh, it's your word against mine I suppose. Another crazy thing is that the ODs in my area all seem to be doing very well, expanding their practices and such, regardless of optical big box stores in the same area. So, assuming that your friend and associates are an accurate cross-section of the U.S. population, I guess you're probably right.
Too bad they aren't.
Too bad they aren't.
I just wanted to say thanks to all those who responded to this post recently. I think having a discussion about this allows for people to talk openly regarding the current state that optometry is in as a profession, and the direction it is going. I am not trying to advocate to switch to dental, (even though if people continue to have questions, I will be happy to answer them), many other health fields are great choices too. I just suggest to think critically about the optometry "investment". Education is an investment into the future, and how we use our time and our money allows us to accept the consequences of our decisions, because some risks aren't meant to be taken. Everything that I have put on here is true, and yes I know that I am on the internet and you can't verify everything I am saying. I was very fortunate to know 10 different optometrist who are in all different stages, and 4 optometry students who are currently in programs across the midwest. Many of my friend's parents and many of my parent's friends are predominantly in the health field. We know more optometrists than dentists, but we have some close family friends who are dentists. One of those optometrists was my high school teacher, she left because she couldn't stand the way optometry was changing for the worse.
My "essay"/ story of my switch from optometry to dental is more directed toward the people who are thinking of entering the profession. Some of the people who posted on here who have owned their own practice and have been practicing for years and are at the end of their career are not ready for the changes that are ahead. Those changes are very concerning for the new graduate who is entering into the optometry field. Yes, you definitely graduated with less debt, compared to the salary ratio and not as many optometrists practicing as there are now. Optometry salaries unfortunately have hovered around the same salary for years. If compared to Pharmacy, Pharmacy at one point were making less than optometrists, but now they surpassed optometrists on income. In 2002 from the Bureau of Labor statistics the median 50% wage for optometrists was:$86, 090, for pharmacist it was: $77,050. Today, according to the Bureau in 2014 the median salary for an optometrist was: $101, 410 , for pharmacist it was $120,950. Just take a step back and just imagine that difference in increase between these two professions, pharmacy is now making 20k more. This is just something to be said with the amount of money invested into a career. The amount of debt that I would have been tied to if I chose Optometry school would have been 220k, which is the same amount (230k) that Ill end up be paying for dental school. This is already on my 50k from undergraduate debt. With the salaries that haven't increased whatsoever with inflation and the amount of debt that that students are taking on is a big risk in itself. The times are much different than when some of these people graduated in the 1990's and early 2000's. Part of the reason for the low salary rates are due to the increased amount of grads that are being pumped out of the schools.
The increase and saturation of Optometrists is a BIG MAJOR problem, which has made wages plateau and people having trouble finding FULL TIME positions. This is a reality, yes, there might be an office in North Dakota or Delaware that needs an associate, but the overall reality is optometrists are having a hard time piecing together a full time schedule for the lack of jobs that are out there. This is just simple supply and demand. the amount of the 4 NEW optometry schools that have opened from 2008-2013 (AZCOPT, RSO, MCPHS, WUCO). From these years of 2008-2013 there has been a 22.3% increase from these new schools, and other current schools expanding their class size. The driving force of all these schools opening is only from a pure profit standpoint, and the AOA is not doing anything to stop it. Now if you fast forward to 2015 Midwestern just opened a brand NEW optometry school in Illinois which will be graduating about another 50 optometry students only, only 40 minutes from the ICO graduating class of about 170. The first class of the Illinois Midwestern optometry school will be graduating in 2020. The other NEW optometry school that is opening is in Pikeville Kentucky, which they already approved and construction will be taking place shortly. ASLO, in Grundy Virginia just passed the 1st accreditation step towards building a brand New Optometry school there. And other BIG news, North Carolina just submitted their first document for the "need for an optometry school in hopes of getting one in the near future. There is also talk about Wisconsin going to be opening an optometry school. Lets be honest, when is there ever going to be a cap on the number optometry schools. Once (NOT IF) Virginia, Illinois and Kentucky open their optometry schools there will be another estimated 158 new grad optometrists entering into the field which would be another 8.7% increase. If you have a pulse, you are getting into an optometry school. Just looking at it from a complete numbers standpoint it doesn't make sense. With this many new grads, they are virtually making the profession completely dispensible and no value. There is a very well known chain near me that has about 20 or so commercial places in the area and they work an optometrist just enough so its considered "full time"...35 hours a week and they pay 80-85k a year including bonuses (Because I know the general manager very well at one of the commercial sites). They have no problem finding optometrists to fill those open positions. Yes, 80k a year doesn't sound awful, but once you figure your 2000 a month you will be paying toward debt repayment (from optometry school), that salary is quickly brought down to the upper 50's low 60's, but you are still taxed on the 80-85k that your making. That same chain going back about 4 years ago paid 45 dollars per hour starting. Today the starting hourly wage is $40 dollars an hour. They don't need to pay any more than that, because it is simple supply and demand. Why pay someone more, if you don't have to, and you will always find an optometrist to take a position. It sounds pretty sad, but it is true.
Optometrists are expected to see more patients constantly. For instance if you work at America's Best, you sign a contract a where you might have to see 8-10 patients an hour. Yes the money might sound good initially, but that salary is going to come down, because the new grads continue to be pumped out at an exceeding rate.
The problem with the continued growth of commercial practice, they are referring out ALL medical. They just don't see the value in in it. America's Best, Lenscrafters (and soon to be CVS etc. is purely for profit on glasses sales ONLY. With the massive number of customers (patients) that are driven to these commercial big box stores, a patient's education on what an optometrist can do really becomes ONLY a refraction doctor. This is why I made the comment that you learn a lot of pointless stuff that you are not going to use. Commercial is making an optometrist only a refraction machine and nothing else. When I was on the optometry path and I was talking to some of my friends in college at the time (one was already accepted to PA school and one just got into med school), talked about their red/pink eye they were getting. They said they would just see their primary care physician for that. I was trying to educate them to see a local optometrist, but they just thought seeing their family doctor was a much better solution. They said they would never consider it, they just think optometrists didn't have the training for that. I was appalled. This wasn't the only time this has happened to me, but other numerous times I tried to educate friends and even some of my family members.
The patient education is just not there whatsoever. It is always interesting when optometrists say that they need to switch to the "medical model" of practice. This is unfortunately really difficult to do (at least with this next generation). This next generation (my generation) chooses to use online sources for glasses and contacts (most of my friends have the 1800 contact app) or choose to shop at a Americas Best or another commercial form of practice, where they can have their glasses made in an hour and be with the optometrist for 10 minutes. For you optometrists who graduated in the 1990's its nice to think of your practice now being somewhat stable, but one must see the trends that are changing with the next generation with the continued online use and the demand to have goods produced cheaply and quickly. I don't see the form of private practice going to be able to compete whatsoever for this next generation (and for the optometrists that are entering into school with such a substantial amount of debt). Optometry is following the same path as pharmacy with CVS (and especially since CVS is opening optometry lanes this year) and Walgreeens. Big business is continuing to take over the market. There is going to be no where to compete. The good thing is with pharmacy, they still can't get the goods online, unlike optometry.
To the person who commented above, about differentiating yourself and trying to be like the RITZ CARLTON approach. This ideology would work if their wasn't such a saturation of optometrists now and, even a greater saturation that is occurring with these 3 new optometry schools (potentially 4) different optometry that are opening. There is a reason why less than 20 states have a Ritz Carlton. They can't be in every state. There are way too many optometrists for each optometrist to have a Ritz Carlton approach and all be profitable. That approach is giving new optometry grads false hope, that is setting them up for failure. Yes, maybe that worked in the 1980's and 1990's and 2000's, but the times are completely changed. Maybe you still have the Ritz Carlton approach and it is somewhat working. This is just not going to work with this next generation.
As for the person who commented that they charge 195 dollars for exam. Yea you can charge whatever you want for exam, but if you are signed up with insurance like DAVIS, SPECTRA, VSP or any others, you have a contracted rate what your actually collecting. Some bad insurance companies only basically make the money that the patient pays with their 10 dollar copay. Optometrists do this so they can at least have foot traffic through the door, in hopes of getting an optical sale. That is just not enough to survive on and no value whatsoever built into your OD degree. You might tell yourself, I can make it work with loyal patients. That is such a false lie. Patients will go wherever is cheaper or if their insurance changes. "I like you doc but my new job has X insurance so I have to leave". Other times the patients found the same glasses online for cheaper or contacts they will walk out with their prescription, and just use you for the refraction since Lenscrafters is now taking VSP and so will CVS once the chain starts opening the optical lane. I have heard of multiple customers price check with Walmart while looking at glasses in the private practice optical dispensary. They usually then leave with their prescription or ask for their "PD" so they can buy glasses at Zenni optical or Warby Parker. This is on top of the patients who just don't understand why they are paying 20 dollars extra for a contact lens fit because they are getting the same contacts that they always get through 1 800 contacts. This might not be the predominant clientele in your office now, but this is my generation. You might not encounter them as much, but my generation is multiplying with them and the new grad ODs will continuously encounter them. Making it much more difficult to make a buck and pay back any loans.
The mode of practice is being completely changed to a quicker fast paced commercial approach and even an online approach threat will not allow new grads to survive. If there was a lot less schools and if we didn't open 4 new schools within the last 5 years and 4 more schools that are going to be opening soon, it MIGHT be a little better. It is coming to the point where an optometry degree is really not going to mean much. Wages will continue to decrease with this competition and saturation. It is just so unfortunate, it really could have been a good profession for this next generation if a lot of factors didn't come into play. If you just search on ODs on Facebook. They asked a poll would you steer your daughter away from optometry if she was thinking of perusing it. Many of the responses unfortunately said "yes". This speaks volumes, that optometrists would turn people away from their own profession (and granted I know some OLDER optometrists still love their job). There is a lot of uncertainty in the profession today. One of the optometrists that I did work with did tell me if he could redo his career choice, he would have been a PA or a dentist. I'm just laying the facts down for you to see and really think hard about this major life commitment and investment. Essentially this is an investment into YOUR future, and I'm sure you are not going to/want to end up teaching high school science after you have an OD degree like my teacher. If you have any comments, as always share them. Sorry this got kind of long. Have a great night guys.
My "essay"/ story of my switch from optometry to dental is more directed toward the people who are thinking of entering the profession. Some of the people who posted on here who have owned their own practice and have been practicing for years and are at the end of their career are not ready for the changes that are ahead. Those changes are very concerning for the new graduate who is entering into the optometry field. Yes, you definitely graduated with less debt, compared to the salary ratio and not as many optometrists practicing as there are now. Optometry salaries unfortunately have hovered around the same salary for years. If compared to Pharmacy, Pharmacy at one point were making less than optometrists, but now they surpassed optometrists on income. In 2002 from the Bureau of Labor statistics the median 50% wage for optometrists was:$86, 090, for pharmacist it was: $77,050. Today, according to the Bureau in 2014 the median salary for an optometrist was: $101, 410 , for pharmacist it was $120,950. Just take a step back and just imagine that difference in increase between these two professions, pharmacy is now making 20k more. This is just something to be said with the amount of money invested into a career. The amount of debt that I would have been tied to if I chose Optometry school would have been 220k, which is the same amount (230k) that Ill end up be paying for dental school. This is already on my 50k from undergraduate debt. With the salaries that haven't increased whatsoever with inflation and the amount of debt that that students are taking on is a big risk in itself. The times are much different than when some of these people graduated in the 1990's and early 2000's. Part of the reason for the low salary rates are due to the increased amount of grads that are being pumped out of the schools.
The increase and saturation of Optometrists is a BIG MAJOR problem, which has made wages plateau and people having trouble finding FULL TIME positions. This is a reality, yes, there might be an office in North Dakota or Delaware that needs an associate, but the overall reality is optometrists are having a hard time piecing together a full time schedule for the lack of jobs that are out there. This is just simple supply and demand. the amount of the 4 NEW optometry schools that have opened from 2008-2013 (AZCOPT, RSO, MCPHS, WUCO). From these years of 2008-2013 there has been a 22.3% increase from these new schools, and other current schools expanding their class size. The driving force of all these schools opening is only from a pure profit standpoint, and the AOA is not doing anything to stop it. Now if you fast forward to 2015 Midwestern just opened a brand NEW optometry school in Illinois which will be graduating about another 50 optometry students only, only 40 minutes from the ICO graduating class of about 170. The first class of the Illinois Midwestern optometry school will be graduating in 2020. The other NEW optometry school that is opening is in Pikeville Kentucky, which they already approved and construction will be taking place shortly. ASLO, in Grundy Virginia just passed the 1st accreditation step towards building a brand New Optometry school there. And other BIG news, North Carolina just submitted their first document for the "need for an optometry school in hopes of getting one in the near future. There is also talk about Wisconsin going to be opening an optometry school. Lets be honest, when is there ever going to be a cap on the number optometry schools. Once (NOT IF) Virginia, Illinois and Kentucky open their optometry schools there will be another estimated 158 new grad optometrists entering into the field which would be another 8.7% increase. If you have a pulse, you are getting into an optometry school. Just looking at it from a complete numbers standpoint it doesn't make sense. With this many new grads, they are virtually making the profession completely dispensible and no value. There is a very well known chain near me that has about 20 or so commercial places in the area and they work an optometrist just enough so its considered "full time"...35 hours a week and they pay 80-85k a year including bonuses (Because I know the general manager very well at one of the commercial sites). They have no problem finding optometrists to fill those open positions. Yes, 80k a year doesn't sound awful, but once you figure your 2000 a month you will be paying toward debt repayment (from optometry school), that salary is quickly brought down to the upper 50's low 60's, but you are still taxed on the 80-85k that your making. That same chain going back about 4 years ago paid 45 dollars per hour starting. Today the starting hourly wage is $40 dollars an hour. They don't need to pay any more than that, because it is simple supply and demand. Why pay someone more, if you don't have to, and you will always find an optometrist to take a position. It sounds pretty sad, but it is true.
Optometrists are expected to see more patients constantly. For instance if you work at America's Best, you sign a contract a where you might have to see 8-10 patients an hour. Yes the money might sound good initially, but that salary is going to come down, because the new grads continue to be pumped out at an exceeding rate.
The problem with the continued growth of commercial practice, they are referring out ALL medical. They just don't see the value in in it. America's Best, Lenscrafters (and soon to be CVS etc. is purely for profit on glasses sales ONLY. With the massive number of customers (patients) that are driven to these commercial big box stores, a patient's education on what an optometrist can do really becomes ONLY a refraction doctor. This is why I made the comment that you learn a lot of pointless stuff that you are not going to use. Commercial is making an optometrist only a refraction machine and nothing else. When I was on the optometry path and I was talking to some of my friends in college at the time (one was already accepted to PA school and one just got into med school), talked about their red/pink eye they were getting. They said they would just see their primary care physician for that. I was trying to educate them to see a local optometrist, but they just thought seeing their family doctor was a much better solution. They said they would never consider it, they just think optometrists didn't have the training for that. I was appalled. This wasn't the only time this has happened to me, but other numerous times I tried to educate friends and even some of my family members.
The patient education is just not there whatsoever. It is always interesting when optometrists say that they need to switch to the "medical model" of practice. This is unfortunately really difficult to do (at least with this next generation). This next generation (my generation) chooses to use online sources for glasses and contacts (most of my friends have the 1800 contact app) or choose to shop at a Americas Best or another commercial form of practice, where they can have their glasses made in an hour and be with the optometrist for 10 minutes. For you optometrists who graduated in the 1990's its nice to think of your practice now being somewhat stable, but one must see the trends that are changing with the next generation with the continued online use and the demand to have goods produced cheaply and quickly. I don't see the form of private practice going to be able to compete whatsoever for this next generation (and for the optometrists that are entering into school with such a substantial amount of debt). Optometry is following the same path as pharmacy with CVS (and especially since CVS is opening optometry lanes this year) and Walgreeens. Big business is continuing to take over the market. There is going to be no where to compete. The good thing is with pharmacy, they still can't get the goods online, unlike optometry.
To the person who commented above, about differentiating yourself and trying to be like the RITZ CARLTON approach. This ideology would work if their wasn't such a saturation of optometrists now and, even a greater saturation that is occurring with these 3 new optometry schools (potentially 4) different optometry that are opening. There is a reason why less than 20 states have a Ritz Carlton. They can't be in every state. There are way too many optometrists for each optometrist to have a Ritz Carlton approach and all be profitable. That approach is giving new optometry grads false hope, that is setting them up for failure. Yes, maybe that worked in the 1980's and 1990's and 2000's, but the times are completely changed. Maybe you still have the Ritz Carlton approach and it is somewhat working. This is just not going to work with this next generation.
As for the person who commented that they charge 195 dollars for exam. Yea you can charge whatever you want for exam, but if you are signed up with insurance like DAVIS, SPECTRA, VSP or any others, you have a contracted rate what your actually collecting. Some bad insurance companies only basically make the money that the patient pays with their 10 dollar copay. Optometrists do this so they can at least have foot traffic through the door, in hopes of getting an optical sale. That is just not enough to survive on and no value whatsoever built into your OD degree. You might tell yourself, I can make it work with loyal patients. That is such a false lie. Patients will go wherever is cheaper or if their insurance changes. "I like you doc but my new job has X insurance so I have to leave". Other times the patients found the same glasses online for cheaper or contacts they will walk out with their prescription, and just use you for the refraction since Lenscrafters is now taking VSP and so will CVS once the chain starts opening the optical lane. I have heard of multiple customers price check with Walmart while looking at glasses in the private practice optical dispensary. They usually then leave with their prescription or ask for their "PD" so they can buy glasses at Zenni optical or Warby Parker. This is on top of the patients who just don't understand why they are paying 20 dollars extra for a contact lens fit because they are getting the same contacts that they always get through 1 800 contacts. This might not be the predominant clientele in your office now, but this is my generation. You might not encounter them as much, but my generation is multiplying with them and the new grad ODs will continuously encounter them. Making it much more difficult to make a buck and pay back any loans.
The mode of practice is being completely changed to a quicker fast paced commercial approach and even an online approach threat will not allow new grads to survive. If there was a lot less schools and if we didn't open 4 new schools within the last 5 years and 4 more schools that are going to be opening soon, it MIGHT be a little better. It is coming to the point where an optometry degree is really not going to mean much. Wages will continue to decrease with this competition and saturation. It is just so unfortunate, it really could have been a good profession for this next generation if a lot of factors didn't come into play. If you just search on ODs on Facebook. They asked a poll would you steer your daughter away from optometry if she was thinking of perusing it. Many of the responses unfortunately said "yes". This speaks volumes, that optometrists would turn people away from their own profession (and granted I know some OLDER optometrists still love their job). There is a lot of uncertainty in the profession today. One of the optometrists that I did work with did tell me if he could redo his career choice, he would have been a PA or a dentist. I'm just laying the facts down for you to see and really think hard about this major life commitment and investment. Essentially this is an investment into YOUR future, and I'm sure you are not going to/want to end up teaching high school science after you have an OD degree like my teacher. If you have any comments, as always share them. Sorry this got kind of long. Have a great night guys.
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I'm very impressed with your knowledge of the field and wish all pre-optometry applicants did 1/10th of the research you've done before entering the field.
I'm happy with where I'm at currently, but the future for this profession does have a lot of difficult challenges and no one seems to have the correct solutions. Health care in general is in trouble. Cesar's points are 100% spot-on and they certainly reflect a lot of current practitioners' feelings
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torontopharm
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Is the AOA even capable of putting restrictions on new Optometry school accreditation? I would like to know who, if anyone, holds the power to do something about it, because I'm afraid Cesar is absolutely right about that aspect of the profession. I don't agree with his outlook on patients, but his insurance and oversupply views seem accurate to me. The AOA denies that oversupply even exists. Last year at a conference, I asked the former president of the AOA if we should be worried about the creation of new Optometry schools. He said "absolutely not." Apparently the baby boomers will live forever.
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I don't believe it's possible for the AOA to do much about it even if they wanted to. Regardless, Optometry will survive. Some will do better than others. I hope pre-health students reading this forum start doing some serious research before picking any career. No profession benefits from cluelessness.
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Thanks for the reply, Cesar. You've obviously done your homework. Your tone has changed on the most recent post, so I'll talk more about that specifically. Everything you said has some truth to it.
However, this is a much more than the black and white picture you're trying to portray.
On the income side, yes ODs make the least out of any of the doctors on this board (maybe besides DVMs). I don't know if BLS differentiates between full time and part time workers when they calculate the median wage. Here is another bit of wage information to consider: http://www.aoa.org/documents/optometrists/income_from_optometry-2012_executive_summary.pdf Yes, it is a survey, so it can have bias/sampling error.
On the schooling side. Yes, new schools are a big problem.
There isn't an America's Best around me. I universally hear they do try to pump patients out and in to optical, however they are the worst case scenario and are not the norm. Even then, I'd be very surprised if someone told me they saw 64 patients in a day. Maybe someone else here who has worked for them can chime in. I have filled in for Wal-Mart and Costco. I've diagnosed/treated conjunctivitis, foreign bodies, flashes/floaters,amblyopia, migraines, nerve palsies, diabetic retinopathy, etc. In my experience my only limitations were for patients with glaucoma because we didn't have the necessary equipment to practice to the standard of care.
As far as your friends going to see PCP instead of optometry for their eyes. That's a problem with public perception, but that doesn't mean it cant change. In my private practice I'd routinely get referrals from PCPs for diabetic patients, or patients taking medication with high risk side effects. Part of that was because the practice owner and I were very pro-active in sending follow-up and thank you letters to the PCPs in the area, letting them know of pertinent exam findings. Is that more work? Absolutely. But it served a dual purpose. It was in the best interest of the patient and it was good "PR" for the practice and profession. We reached out to the urgent care doctors who would routinely (at least once a week) send us foreign body removals. Now it would be nice if other providers would just assume this level of education and competency from ODs, and this adds more to the extra non-patient-care stuff we I'd have to do, sometimes I'd stay an hour or more after work to pump out letters to other providers. However, it's one of the things I enjoy doing to elevate the profession and elevate the level of care my patients receive.
I was the one who charged 195 for a comprehensive exam. You're right, insurance reimburses at a different rate. However, just like a lot of other things you're repeatedly giving the single worse example. I have a fair amount of cash pay patients that pay 195 (175 for returning patients). However we accepted 2 insurances and 1 vision care plan. Blue cross/blue shield reimbursed $119, and Medicare reimbursed $114. Plus the $25 we collect for the refraction. VSP reimbursed about $78. There are practices out there dropping vision care plans all together.
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In summary: there are a lot of challenges to optometry. I think the biggest one is the amount of new schools opening up and therefore more grads coming out. However, if you're interested in science, if you're interested in optics, if you're interested in generally helping others solve their problems, if you're interested in business, if you're interested in putting in the work to improve the profession, optometry can be a great career for you.
However, this is a much more than the black and white picture you're trying to portray.
On the income side, yes ODs make the least out of any of the doctors on this board (maybe besides DVMs). I don't know if BLS differentiates between full time and part time workers when they calculate the median wage. Here is another bit of wage information to consider: http://www.aoa.org/documents/optometrists/income_from_optometry-2012_executive_summary.pdf Yes, it is a survey, so it can have bias/sampling error.
On the schooling side. Yes, new schools are a big problem.
There isn't an America's Best around me. I universally hear they do try to pump patients out and in to optical, however they are the worst case scenario and are not the norm. Even then, I'd be very surprised if someone told me they saw 64 patients in a day. Maybe someone else here who has worked for them can chime in. I have filled in for Wal-Mart and Costco. I've diagnosed/treated conjunctivitis, foreign bodies, flashes/floaters,amblyopia, migraines, nerve palsies, diabetic retinopathy, etc. In my experience my only limitations were for patients with glaucoma because we didn't have the necessary equipment to practice to the standard of care.
As far as your friends going to see PCP instead of optometry for their eyes. That's a problem with public perception, but that doesn't mean it cant change. In my private practice I'd routinely get referrals from PCPs for diabetic patients, or patients taking medication with high risk side effects. Part of that was because the practice owner and I were very pro-active in sending follow-up and thank you letters to the PCPs in the area, letting them know of pertinent exam findings. Is that more work? Absolutely. But it served a dual purpose. It was in the best interest of the patient and it was good "PR" for the practice and profession. We reached out to the urgent care doctors who would routinely (at least once a week) send us foreign body removals. Now it would be nice if other providers would just assume this level of education and competency from ODs, and this adds more to the extra non-patient-care stuff we I'd have to do, sometimes I'd stay an hour or more after work to pump out letters to other providers. However, it's one of the things I enjoy doing to elevate the profession and elevate the level of care my patients receive.
I was the one who charged 195 for a comprehensive exam. You're right, insurance reimburses at a different rate. However, just like a lot of other things you're repeatedly giving the single worse example. I have a fair amount of cash pay patients that pay 195 (175 for returning patients). However we accepted 2 insurances and 1 vision care plan. Blue cross/blue shield reimbursed $119, and Medicare reimbursed $114. Plus the $25 we collect for the refraction. VSP reimbursed about $78. There are practices out there dropping vision care plans all together.
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In summary: there are a lot of challenges to optometry. I think the biggest one is the amount of new schools opening up and therefore more grads coming out. However, if you're interested in science, if you're interested in optics, if you're interested in generally helping others solve their problems, if you're interested in business, if you're interested in putting in the work to improve the profession, optometry can be a great career for you.
The notion that ODs cannot survive on insurance/service claims is absolutely false. If you have a lease at a mediocre Lenscrafter (6-8 pts/day, 10-14 on weekends x 7 days a week), the OD is expected to gross 200k/year, net 160k(after rent). So I am extremely confused with the statement about ODs having the lowest pay out of all the healthcare professionals on this forum.
Thanks everyone who has given their input into this thread recently. I put a lot of research into this career change and I am just sharing what I have found. I think Its great to hear other optometrist's opinions and students comments also. I really appreciate some of the previous people who have commented that are encouraging students to really look into this career and do your research before you fully commit.
As for the previous person who just posted (Singuy). I don't know what state you live in, but you can't even own a Lenscrafters in my state. They will not allow it. You are an employee of Luxoticca and they pay you $4o dollars an hour to start. There is no medical practice (any medical is referred out except red eye) and you see patients every 15 minutes with red eye and contact lens evaluations in between the 15 minute exams. The employee turnover is extremely high, its a continual revolving door, and they always have their positions filled because the need for an optometrist to work to pay off debt. Just to put that pay in perspective, a dental hygienist can also make $40 dollars an hour with only an associates degree and not work weekends or holidays.
As for the previous person who just posted (Singuy). I don't know what state you live in, but you can't even own a Lenscrafters in my state. They will not allow it. You are an employee of Luxoticca and they pay you $4o dollars an hour to start. There is no medical practice (any medical is referred out except red eye) and you see patients every 15 minutes with red eye and contact lens evaluations in between the 15 minute exams. The employee turnover is extremely high, its a continual revolving door, and they always have their positions filled because the need for an optometrist to work to pay off debt. Just to put that pay in perspective, a dental hygienist can also make $40 dollars an hour with only an associates degree and not work weekends or holidays.
In my state, most Luxottica's affiliated departments are leased to the OD. Per their PDF
Employee of Luxottica Retail – In Illinois, Maryland, Michigan,
Minnesota, Nebraska, New York, Pennsylvania, Utah, Vermont,
Wisconsin, Washington DC and Puerto Rico doctors may be
employees of Luxottica Retail. In California, doctors are employed
by Luxottica’s EYEXAM of California, Inc., a licensed vision care
service plan. As an employed doctor, you receive a base salary
plus benefits.
So you must live in one of those states where the OD is the employee instead of the lease holder(all though they used the word "may be"). Anyways, I'm just saying pay per service for ODs are very rewarding if the OD can obtain a decent lease. I know ODs who makes 300-500k/year with a strong lease. You can't ever do that with a Pharm.D or a dental hygienist.
Employee of Luxottica Retail – In Illinois, Maryland, Michigan,
Minnesota, Nebraska, New York, Pennsylvania, Utah, Vermont,
Wisconsin, Washington DC and Puerto Rico doctors may be
employees of Luxottica Retail. In California, doctors are employed
by Luxottica’s EYEXAM of California, Inc., a licensed vision care
service plan. As an employed doctor, you receive a base salary
plus benefits.
So you must live in one of those states where the OD is the employee instead of the lease holder(all though they used the word "may be"). Anyways, I'm just saying pay per service for ODs are very rewarding if the OD can obtain a decent lease. I know ODs who makes 300-500k/year with a strong lease. You can't ever do that with a Pharm.D or a dental hygienist.
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Shoot... I should have gone into optometry...
Yes, I am one of those states in which you are an employee of Luxottica. I'm sure if an optometrist is in an environment where they can be the lease holder can be rewarding, but the challenge is getting into that kind of environment. Especially for the new grads that are just entering into optometry school right now, that will be a challenge. With the current competition in all directions it can be a challenge to even own a commercial practice. I'm sure there is some optometrist that can make (300k-500k), but there is a reason why there is very few that make that, considering the median average is much lower than that at about $101,000. I think new grads going into optometry school thinking they can make 300-500k will be very discouraged once they get out of school in the real world in 4 years. I think it is about being realistic. Some people will rise to the top, but as for the current state of optometry, this kind of salary is not going to be attainable by this next generation of optometrists. One of our family's friend who is a dentist makes about 2 million a year, granted he owns two very high grossing practices, that kind of income is unheard of for a general dentist. Salary is very subjective but there is a reason median salaries exist, because they are what someone can expect.
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No one goes to Optometry school expecting to make 300-500k a year. Was this the source of your disillusion with the profession?
That's exactly what I am saying Snakedoctor1. You misunderstood me. No one is expecting to make that kind of money and they should not. I am quoting the previous poster (Singuy) who thinks optometrists can make 300-500k. He was 3 comments before your previous comment. This is not realistic. That is what I am saying.
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I KNOW WHAT THIS IS!
CESAR21 IS REALLY AN OPTOMETRY STUDENT/OPTOMETRIST WHO DOESN'T WANT MORE INFLUX INTO THE SECTOR SO HE'S TRYING TO SCARE AWAY POTENTIALS TO GO DESTROY DENTISTRY
mind fck
I KNOW WHAT THIS IS!
CESAR21 IS REALLY AN OPTOMETRY STUDENT/OPTOMETRIST WHO DOESN'T WANT MORE INFLUX INTO THE SECTOR SO HE'S TRYING TO SCARE AWAY POTENTIALS TO GO DESTROY DENTISTRY
mind fck
FINALLY! Who told you ??? I was waiting for someone to find that out hahahahahaha
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i watch too much HBO that's all
My statements were targeted to earlier posts about how ODs make peanuts from insurance reimbursements. I am not suggesting that all or most ODs break 120k/year. I am suggesting however that there's room to grow unlike certain health professions such as Pharm.D.
It's actually extremely sad to see ODs as employees instead of lease holders since there's a lot of money to be made as a lease holder. Another example of corporations screwing the little guy.
It's actually extremely sad to see ODs as employees instead of lease holders since there's a lot of money to be made as a lease holder. Another example of corporations screwing the little guy.
So you are saying that with a 200k gross, that overhead will only be 20%, and the doctor will take home 160k?
Good luck with that.
Dental Hygiene is one of the best kept secrets in healthcare.
Highest ROI, per level of education, IMO.
I would take this with a grain of salt.
Doctors in general, and dentists in particular, like to bull**** people about how much money they make. For your family friend to "make" 2 million a year, off of two practices, he would have to be collecting (not producing) north of 5-7 million in both offices combined. Possible? yes. Unlikely? YES.
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That would be assuming 60-70% overhead... I always thought overhead is usually 50-60% for general practice? Or are you including taxes in your equation?
Yep your absolutely right. The average net Profit is about 50-55%(50%overhead) of gross for dentistry, while optometry has a net profit for 30-40% from gross. They must be figuring off an optometrist net profit. 2 million a year is not unheard of if you have two general practices with doing many root canals in house, and do orthodontics in house along with implants. Each office makes 2.5 million a year, so a total of 5 million dollars, take 50% overhead, you get a profit of 2.5 million. Then subtract the other associate dentist's salary of 400k. You are left with roughly 2 million profit. Granted this is not the norm, but the outlier as far as salarys go.
Do a couple of simple searches on dental overhead.
For a GENERAL dentist the average overhead is about 2/3, and many practices have a hard time keeping it under 70-75%. Go to the websites of dental practice brokers, and look into the numbers of practices that are for sale to see real world examples. I attended a seminar with Roger Levin last year (google him, he is widely considered the "authority" on practice management), and he sets the goal at 59% overhead for a well run practice. Having worked in a corporate office, where I was NOT privy to the actual "profit" numbers, but having experience in a private group practice and my own solo private practice where I do know the numbers, along with having several friends who own their own offices who I have a good idea of what their offices are doing, I can say that for ANY office to be doing 2-3 or more MILLION per year, they would have to have at least one or 2 associates or partners, per location doing these numbers. If there were a single owner dentist at the top of this pyramid, they might have an impressive income, but one must never forget that dentists/associates are expensive employees, and THEIR salaries are expenses, and not to be claimed as profit.
As I stated, doctors are notorious for overstating their income. Simply by including the "practice" profitability is one way (not subtracting employee or associate dentist compensation). The fact that dentists alway answer with their office PRODUCTION, when asked how their office is doing, is an example of this. As stated, production means NOTHING. Collections is EVERYTHING.
As a dentist with several years of experience, who has always had above average clinical speed (in comparison to my peers in the military, and in group practice) I also have a much more realistic idea of exactly how much production it is possible to do. Most offices in todays economy with large production, do so by going the WalMart route of large write-offs, which INCREASES overhead relative to overall revenue. Again, look at the prospectuses available on practices for sale on brokers websites for examples of this. I often see practices grossing 1.8 million collections, with the owner taking home about $300-400k after all adjustments are made. IMO, this is peanuts for that amount of work - but it is more the norm for very high grossing practices (and I understand there are outliers, Beverly Hills cosmetic dentists like Dorfman, etc, lol)
Another good source of info for this is the surveys the ADA publishes every few years for dentists income. They have them for each major specialty also, as they are different. As an example, the reason endodontist make so much is not so much because the produce or collect more than the average general dentist, it is that their OVERHEAD is much lower (don't need to employ expensive hygienists, generally a smaller staff, no "financial coordinator", and no large lab fees for crown and bridge).
Enough of this in THIS thread, my intention is NOT to hijack an optometry thread that is very interesting.
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Great info. Goes to show that almost all health professions have a 'grass is greener on the other side' outlook right now. There is no perfect career.
What we really need is the secret of how dentistry stopped their growth of new schools. That's absolutely killing us currently
Optometry is changing yes. Years ago the money was in selling glasses, sunglasses, contacts, and regular exams. While it is now easier and cheaper to get glasses and contacts online, there is more potential in the medical side of optometry with an aging population and younger population with excessive electronic screen use. Optometrists must change as the profession changes, and this excites me.
Definitely on the "grass is greener", lol.
Bottom line is ANY doctoral level health care profession has a tough educational hurdle to get over, costs a fortune to complete, and the work is NEVER easy.
Actually we in dentistry are getting hammered with new schools. I had no idea the same thing was happening in optometry. One of my attorney patients was saying the same thing is happening for them also, lol.
My theory is that especially when the economy is bad, more people turn to more education, and the fields that have always been lucrative are able to charge obscene tuition for the increased demand.
MANY new dental schools opened in the last decade, and other schools increasing class size. I believe that when I graduated in the late nineties there were about 4,ooo dental school grads annually in the US. That number is now over 5,000 and I think closer to 5,500 per year. That is a HUGE difference, as the crappy economy is keeping older DDS's from retiring at the same time.
There really is no profession with a guarantee of an easy life and riches galore.
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torontopharm
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Although I know that most people will take this post negatively... Thank you for posting this. I think I needed this post more than anyone else. I have been debating medical school and optometry school for sometime now with a passion for both. Recently I've been leaning more towards medical schools even though I just got into two great optometry schools. I know optometry students are more than capable of handling more rigorous education than what optometry school has to offer, so i know that optometry students are not choosing optometry because its easier to get into. But rather because of their passion, however I think you are right about the field not having as much to offer the students graduating today as it did 25 years ago. Also for those who are not interested in private practice, optometry has barely anything else to offer with competitive pay worthy or going to school for 4 years.
Anyways thank you so much for posting this. It definitely helped me make my decision about medical school.
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Did you get into a medical school? A bird in the hand and all that jazz.
Although, the debt to income ratio for optometry sounds so bad. it would be different if the salary was consistently like 140, but this seems to be an exception to the rule. its too bad too, there are a lot of positives about being an OD; less schooling, little on call hours, more laid back, etc.
Not yet but I do have interview invites for a few Medical schools and their attached biomed programs comingup. I think if i get into a biomed program that is attached with the understanding that doing well will guarantee me a seat, I will choose that over optometry. I was serious when I said that this post really was the last nudge i needed to push me into medicine. This was by no means the reason I am choosing medicine, that was something I had been debating for sometime now, but it was rather just a sign i needed on a day I was particularly very confused.
Thanks for your response! I always enjoy hearing from people when they think critically about their options and the future of a profession, because it is ultimately a decision you are going to have to live with for the rest of your life (and consequences associated with it). Congrats on choosing medicine, that is a good career choice with a good future ahead. A long path, but it will be worth it in the end. You are 100% right that medicine (and dental) give you much more options offered compared to optometry. If I had the option, I would have chosen optometry school in the 1980s but much has changed since then for the worse. There is just not enough value built into an OD degree anymore. There are great options out there other than optometry school where you can still help people, but are able to make a life long career out of. I wish you the best with all your future endeavors in medical school and thanks again for the response.
I read with interest your perspective regarding both Dentistry and Optometry. As I have been in practice for over 22 years in a medical environment, I may be able to shed some insight into your perspective. While I agree with you Dentistry may be the better choice, all of the medical professions including Dentistry are not what they once were. Fortunately, Dentistry at least at the moment, appears to have avoided the integration into "Obama Care". This single issue is why Optometry/ Medicine/ Podiatry are all under attack. All 3 of these professions are integrated into the "New" highly bureaucratic healthcare system which treats doctor's as criminals and factory workers. I do not suggest anyone enter any of these professions. I have personal knowledge from direct experience in all 3 professions including Medical schools, Optometry schools, and Podiatry schools. Unfortunately, face declining reimbursements, increased cost of training, more years of training, increased regulation, inability to choose their mode of practice, and most of all horrific debt makes these professions a bad career choice. As my own daughter enters her first year of University, she has realized along with her peers the best in brightest of her classmates including herself are not considering careers in healthcare. My own colleagues at the professional schools have informed me the trend over the past 10+ years is lower and lower quality of entering students. One of my own friends who is a retired dentist has none of his children in the dental field. While all 4 were valedictorian's, all chose corporate law rather than pursuing a career in healthcare. Their major decisions were based upon opportunities and the ability to make choices in their future careers. Currently, in healthcare there are no choices. Once you graduate, finish your residency, get licensed, you work for a hospital, large corporate entity, or corporate chain. Private practice is a declining option for many. It is these large corporations who dictate your mode of practice, your salary, your hours, and your career advancement. This model of healthcare has been dictated by federal policies mostly through "Obamacare". This seems to be the dismal future which leaves future doctors disheartened, disillusioned, frustrated, and broke with ridiculous debt. While you paint a pretty picture of the "Utopian Dentistry" it appears many dentists would disagree. You seem to "equate" the sale of eye glasses and contact lenses in an optometry practice as a vulnerable commodity due to sales on the Internet. Nothing could be further from the truth. As I stated above, with further intrusion by the federal government into healthcare reimbursement the only possibility physicians have is "sales" outside of the government regulated reimbursement schedule. Many colleagues in both Ophthalmology and Optometry believe it's the saving grace, the ability to sell products outside of the government. This may be the only way to grow revenues/salaries. As an Internist or any other medical specialist, they have no ability to modify reimbursement for their services. Insurance companies along with federal and state governments dictate what your services are worth. Therefore, with no ability to increase your wages to pay for your huge debt how long can this be sustained??
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Threads like this cause people to take a second look, do some research, figure out what they are really getting into. I am really tired of the "passion" argument. Optometry doesn't need people who are so passionate they are willing to take whatever abuse comes their way. Optometry needs people who recognize problems and are willing to adapt. Too many of you are ignorantly diving into this profession.
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Im from Canada as well and was likewise considering podiatry. But as far as optometry goes, do you know if it is any better in Canada because from what I can see it is better. What do you think?
T
torontopharm
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I think posting is a significant oversimplification.
The opportunity cost to become an optometrist is going to be very high. "Passion" will not pay your student loans. Or buy you a practice. Or a house. Or pay for your kids braces.
You may love being an optometrist and "changing people's lives" but if you don't feel you're adequately compensated for changing those lives, your passion will fizzle very very quickly.
I have said dozens of times on this forum. Optometry is a field in which you can have a fulfilling career and make a good living but you need to have a plan on how you're going to make that happen and you need to have that plan in place before you give any optometry school a single nickel of your money.
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I agree that you should be passionate - or at least really enjoy the field you're getting into. But what snake is getting at is that choosing a career path is not as easy as just being passionate about something. There are consequences that need to be considered. If you want to do a poor job at interviews, just tell them the only reason you're applying to their program is because you're passionate about it. It comes off as very naive. If you want a perfect example of this, just take a look at all the premeds who have extravagant dreams of being fancy rich heart surgeons - most of them give up on their "passion" the moment they realize their grades don't cut it, schooling is very long, it's very hard work, expensive, etc.
I really like the wisdom @KHE drops here:
KHE said:
Besides, it's an online forum. You don't have to take all these posts seriously - they do however, offer great ideas and questions to ask practitioners and staff during interviews.
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I got it from this statement: "And I mean really having a selfless heart to serve people through optometry not for the money or for whatever perks you guys are dissecting"
I appreciate where you are coming from, but I think you are also misunderstanding my point. Loving your job is great. Still loving it after you have actually done it for a few years is even better, but my point is that I've seen many pre-opts post things like "I don't even care about the money, I'm so passionate about Optometry." It almost seems like a coping mechanism for all of the negative comments floating around. Don't you want to be compensated according to your level of skill and education? It's the idea that no matter how bad it gets, you will just love Optometry so much that it will all be worth it that sparks my comment about taking abuse. Are you okay with the way things are now? Will you still be passionate after ten or twenty more years of third party reimbursement cuts?
"Why would you invest your time, money, & energy into a lifelong career that you can't see yourself loving in the long run, regardless of the money, how good you may be at it, or the hardships you will face?" I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. No, I would not use passion as grounds to enter a low-paying field for which I had no aptitude.
"It's that regardless of how well optometrists can "recognize problems" & be "willing to adapt," these things are all secondary if people can't answer my question above." I disagree. Practicality, problem solving and adaptation are the concerned big brother that gives passion any worth at all.
What I'm saying is that unless Optometry (that's us) can find a way to move the profession forward amidst the challenges discussed in this thread, we will continue to get steamrolled as we passionately beg for scraps from third party payers and corporate employers.
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Awesome thank you!It's relatively better, Yes. We do also have our own saturation problem because the #of students studying in USA/UK outnumber the Waterloo grads. Not to mention, the IOBP at Waterloo i believe lets in ~90 foreign OD's per year given they pass the exams. You might be OK if you're willing to relocate. Quebec is the best province for Optometrists in terms of jobs/salary because you can't practice there without passing a French proficiency exam. If you must pursue this route, i'd consider going to the cheapest US school (IAUPR).
I was able to talk to couple of new grads in GTA and both started at ~72k.
That's the extent of my knowledgeHope that helps!
You know what this is amazing. I just checked it out! Oh wait what if there is anything and from the looks of it ANYTHING wrong with my eyes.
And if you are lucky to have nothing wrong WHAT IF SOMETHING WENT WRONG?! Love what KHE said about compairing the value and cost of other things we choose in our life. Optometry is continuing to become more and more medically based.
Oh and if you continue on with the "exam" you measure out distance with your feet.... The site doesn't even work, an input box can't be filled in and you can't continue.
