Do NOT go into Dentistry - Trust me it is SATURATED

[Giovanotto]

I worked in the ED for like 4 years and the doctors have it pretty good. Personally, the thing that turned me away from it is that most of the time is spent talking to and consulting patients, communicating with scribes regarding documentation, and in a way commanding or leading a team of nurses, NPs, and PAs. Most of the "physical work" is done by the techs, RNs, PAs, and NPs. Don't get me wrong there is plenty of consulting/socializing done in dentistry but its more of a 5:1 ratio while as an ER MD/DO it's the other way around. A lot of people like that though. However, I find myself most immersed when I am doing work with my hands and that is one of the reasons why I'm choosing dentistry as my future career.

How true is this? It's rather concerning since I am going into medicine and do seem to agree with your comment.

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[Cello]

A few M.D's have told me that they wish they had gone to dental school instead. Some wish they had been P.A's or N.P's instead. A small minority is happy and would have gone the medical school route all over again.

/Thread

 

[allantois]

How true is this? It's rather concerning since I am going into medicine and do seem to agree with your comment.

As a dentist you would spend most of your day working with your hands on your patients. So the challenges are a bit different between the two fields.

 

[gabs89]

/Thread

What physician wishes they were a physician assistant...

 

[Incis0r]

What physician wishes they were a physician assistant...

Those who recognize that being a PA is an amazing field:
110-180K income
Maximum ~$150-$180K in debt from the more expensive schools
A lifestyle that can rival that offered by dentistry: 4 days on, 4 days off
High job demand/High job security
Shorter length of training- most are around two years in length
Easier to get into/less people need gap years

Hmm....why am I going into dentistry again? *scratches chin* jk haha

 

[Giovanotto]

Those who recognize that being a PA is an amazing field:
110-180K income
Maximum ~$150-$180K in debt from the more expensive schools
A lifestyle that can rival that offered by dentistry: 4 days on, 4 days off
High job demand/High job security
Shorter length of training- most are around two years in length
Easier to get into/less people need gap years

Hmm....why am I going into dentistry again? *scratches chin* jk haha

It's hard to pick apart what is CORRECT in your post. Lol at bolded.

*Bracing myself for the attack of the anecdotes*

 

[Incis0r]

It's hard to pick apart what is CORRECT in your post. Lol at bolded.

*Bracing myself for the attack of the anecdotes*

Don't worry, I don't bite

I got those figures/numbers from various sources, and I'm happy to share them with anyone interested:
1) Physician Assistant forums (kind of like the SDN for them). Those numbers were posted by actual practicing PAs.
2) BLS.gov
3) Job offers on Indeed.com

Starting income is around 75-80K, but after a 12-18 month residency, or after 2-3 years of experience, or by choosing a specialty like Surgery, PAs can do quite well for themselves and definitely make in the six figures.

Sure, some sources are anecdotal, but really, when you're trying to determine salary information, can you truly do much better than the sources I listed above? I'm sure there are some surveys of PA salary floating around out there as well. Take a look at that too.

If you have any sources that support your claim that what I posted is incorrect, please share. I don't mind being wrong, and I appreciate being corrected and providing the updated information in the future.

 

[Giovanotto]

Don't worry, I don't bite

I got those figures/numbers from various sources, and I'm happy to share them with anyone interested:
1) Physician Assistant forums (kind of like the SDN for them). Those numbers were posted by actual practicing PAs.
2) BLS.gov
3) Job offers on Indeed.com

Starting income is around 75-80K, but after a 12-18 month residency, or after 2-3 years of experience, or by choosing a specialty like Surgery, PAs can do quite well for themselves and definitely make in the six figures.

Sure, some sources are anecdotal, but really, when you're trying to determine salary information, can you truly do much better than the sources I listed above? I'm sure there are some surveys of PA salary floating around out there as well. Take a look at that too.

If you have any sources that support your claim that what I posted is incorrect, please share. I don't mind being wrong, and I appreciate being corrected and providing the updated information in the future.

From what I gather from these forums and others, PA-ing in surgery sounds like HELL. Lets compare the highest grossing and most overworked PAs to the equivalent in medicine why don't we:

180K vs 450k? I'll take medicine, thank you (even with loans).

Edit: I'm actually surprised how high the average PA salary is:

Full-Time Salaries.
In 2013, the average nurse practitioner working full time earned a salary of $98,817 and the average physician assistant working full-time earned$107,268 (Table 1). Compared to 2012 earnings, full-time salary for NPs increased by $5,785, compared to a $5,103 increase for PAs.

 

[Incis0r]

Lets compare the highest grossing and most overworked PAs to the equivalent in medicine why don't we:

180K vs 450k? I'll take medicine, thank you (even with loans).

Edit: I'm actually surprised how high the average PA salary is:

Full-Time Salaries.
In 2013, the average nurse practitioner working full time earned a salary of $98,817 and the average physician assistant working full-time earned$107,268 (Table 1). Compared to 2012 earnings, full-time salary for NPs increased by $5,785, compared to a $5,103 increase for PAs.

Let's consider two pathways:

Pathway 1: PA right after college. Practicing starting at age 23. Total Debt: $150K.
Pathway 2: Going for the MD. It is common to take a gap year. Starting Med School age 22, graduate age 26, 4 year residency ends age 30. Total Debt: $350K.

The PA has had 7 years of work and $200K less debt (pre-interest) of a headstart on you.

In this calculation, I assume that you are unable to make a significant dent in your loans with a resident's income.

Set the average income for a PA at $120K and the average income for an MD at $250K.
Assume 15 yr loan repayments at 7% for both.

Total PA student loan payment after interest = $242K.
Total MD student loan payment after interest = $566K.


At age 40, the PA's total net worth (Assume no taxes, 100% income invested) would be $120K x 17 - $242K =$1.8M
At age 40, the MD's total net worth (Assume no taxes, 100% income invested) would be $250K x 10 -$566K = $1.93M

Considerations:
1. It takes the physician ~10 years just to break even with the PA, and that's assuming no taxes.
Due to the nature of our tax system, the PA will be taxed less since s/he is in a lower tax bracket. So the MD's total net worth falls even more.

2. One thing I neglected to take into account is that the resident still does make an income. So let's just say it is an average of $45K/yr for 4 years. That's an extra $180K. Spread over 10 years, this accounts for $18K/yr, which could somewhat help negate the tax advantage the PA's salary has.

3. You'll notice I didn't take interest rate into account with the income invested. However, if I did, the PA would come out ahead since s/he had begun investing 7 yrs earlier and had the benefit of compound interest working for them.

4. After 40, the MD will begin to do better than the PA in terms of wealth generation. However, I am a firm believer in Hedonic Adaptation- there is a limit to how much happiness money can buy. Diminishing returns. I believe that the happiness levels of both the MD and the PA will be determined more, at this point, by their social relationships and professional fulfillment than by money.

Conclusion:
My original post was not about comparing medicine and PA. It merely stated that PA is an amazing field. This analysis shows that, indeed, being a PA is a good way to go and it helps people achieve financial success.

It is always better to choose a career considering multiple factors, such as professional fulfillment, than solely relying on income. Income is, however, a significant factor.

 

[Giovanotto]

Let's consider two pathways:

Pathway 1: PA right after college. Practicing starting at age 23. Total Debt: $150K.
Pathway 2: Going for the MD. It is common to take a gap year. Starting Med School age 22, graduate age 26, 4 year residency ends age 30. Total Debt: $350K.

The PA has had 7 years of work and $200K less debt (pre-interest) of a headstart on you.

In this calculation, I assume that you are unable to make a significant dent in your loans with a resident's income.

Set the average income for a PA at $120K and the average income for an MD at $250K.
Assume 15 yr loan repayments at 7% for both.

Total PA student loan payment after interest = $242K.
Total MD student loan payment after interest = $566K.


At age 40, the PA's total net worth (Assume no taxes, 100% income invested) would be $120K x 17 - $242K =$1.8M
At age 40, the MD's total net worth (Assume no taxes, 100% income invested) would be $250K x 10 -$566K = $1.93M

Considerations:
1. It takes the physician ~10 years just to break even with the PA, and that's assuming no taxes.
Due to the nature of our tax system, the PA will be taxed less since s/he is in a lower tax bracket. So the MD's total net worth falls even more.

2. One thing I neglected to take into account is that the resident still does make an income. So let's just say it is an average of $45K/yr for 4 years. That's an extra $180K. Spread over 10 years, this accounts for $18K/yr, which could somewhat help negate the tax advantage the PA's salary has.

3. You'll notice I didn't take interest rate into account with the income invested. However, if I did, the PA would come out ahead since s/he had begun investing 7 yrs earlier and had the benefit of compound interest working for them.

Conclusion:
My original post was not about comparing medicine and PA. It merely stated that PA is an amazing field. This analysis shows that, indeed, being a PA is a good way to go and it helps people achieve financial success.

It is always better to choose a career considering multiple factors, such as professional fulfillment, than solely relying on income. Income is, however, a significant factor.

A few mistakes in your analysis (i.e. PA average income is not 120k) but even so, so what? That means that after 40 an MD will be grossing twice the pay of a PA. That's technically 15 years of earning twice the income. Talk about net worth at 65, not 40.

 

[Incis0r]

after 40 an MD will be grossing twice the pay of a PA. That's technically 15 years of earning twice the income. Talk about net worth at 65, not 40.

Yeah haha I just finished editing my post to put this under Consideration (#4) when you posted this.
I agree that the MD's net worth will completely dwarf the PA's net worth at 65.

The reason why age 40 is so important to me is that, at age 40, I intend to go part-time in dentistry and "semi-retire" to spend the vast majority of my time pursuing interests such as international dental missions, volunteering at a dental school, as well as non-dental related things such as world travel. I plan to have enough wealth at that age that an income from work does not matter to me- I want my investments to sustain my living expenses starting at 40.

So I subconsciously carried that age through to this analysis.

 

[Giovanotto]

Yeah haha I just finished editing my post to put this under Consideration (#4) when you posted this.
I agree that the MD's net worth will completely dwarf the PA's net worth at 65.

The reason why age 40 is so important to me is that, at age 40, I intend to go part-time in dentistry and "semi-retire" to spend the vast majority of my time pursuing interests such as international dental missions, volunteering at a dental school, as well as non-dental related things such as world travel.

I plan to have enough wealth at that age (40) that an income from work does not matter to me- I want my investments to sustain my living expenses starting at 40.

At 65, the body starts to get weaker and you can't do as many things as you could do at 40 (in terms of physical strength). So I don't mind having a lower net worth at 40, but having 25 extra years of awesome life experiences, as compared to having a higher net worth at 65, but 25 fewer "good years" to enjoy.

So I subconsciously carried that age through to this analysis.

I suspect you can do this in Medicine by hiring PAs/NPs and have even more time off while making more money than a PA/NP.

 

[Incis0r]

I suspect you can do this in Medicine by hiring PAs/NPs and have even more time off while making more money than a PA/NP.

You don't even need to hire PAs/NPs to do it, but yes you can do it in Medicine as well.
That's why I emphasized it's important to choose a profession based on considerations other than just income- consider professional satisfaction too!

 

[Giovanotto]

You don't even need to hire PAs/NPs to do it, but yes you can do it in Medicine as well.
That's why I emphasized it's important to choose a profession based on considerations other than just income- consider professional satisfaction too!

What I can't for the life of me understand is the following: 1) "Medicine is great because of the huge job satisfaction of helping others" 2) "Medicine is so stressful"

How can the two thoughts co-exist? I don't know about anyone else, but you can bet that if I'm stressed I couldn't care less about job satisfaction. I won't be satisfied....

 

[Incis0r]

What I can't for the life of me understand is the following: 1) "Medicine is great because of the huge job satisfaction of helping others" 2) "Medicine is so stressful"

How can the two thoughts co-exist? I don't know about anyone else, but you can bet that if I'm stressed I couldn't care less about job satisfaction. I won't be satisfied....

Simple:
Pre-Meds say #1.
Residents say #2.

 

[fancymylotus]

why are we still arguing about this

 

[7amsho]

seems to me that OP went into this field for the money 9 years ago and is now realizing that it's not a good fit for him/her...... which sucks but it happens...

 

[oralcare123]

So how many decided to stay away from dentistry to make it easier for me?

 

[Cello]

180K vs 450k? I'll take medicine, thank you (even with loans).

Try 800k+ on the physician side. Orthopods in some specialties are starting at $450k in some locations. The top earners in medicine are making around 1 million annually. There isn't a PA in this country that comes anywhere near that earning potential.

 

[Confused1617]

Let's consider two pathways:

Pathway 1: PA right after college. Practicing starting at age 23. Total Debt: $150K.
Pathway 2: Going for the MD. It is common to take a gap year. Starting Med School age 22, graduate age 26, 4 year residency ends age 30. Total Debt: $350K.

The PA has had 7 years of work and $200K less debt (pre-interest) of a headstart on you.

In this calculation, I assume that you are unable to make a significant dent in your loans with a resident's income.

Set the average income for a PA at $120K and the average income for an MD at $250K.
Assume 15 yr loan repayments at 7% for both.

Total PA student loan payment after interest = $242K.
Total MD student loan payment after interest = $566K.


At age 40, the PA's total net worth (Assume no taxes, 100% income invested) would be $120K x 17 - $242K =$1.8M
At age 40, the MD's total net worth (Assume no taxes, 100% income invested) would be $250K x 10 -$566K = $1.93M

Considerations:
1. It takes the physician ~10 years just to break even with the PA, and that's assuming no taxes.
Due to the nature of our tax system, the PA will be taxed less since s/he is in a lower tax bracket. So the MD's total net worth falls even more.

2. One thing I neglected to take into account is that the resident still does make an income. So let's just say it is an average of $45K/yr for 4 years. That's an extra $180K. Spread over 10 years, this accounts for $18K/yr, which could somewhat help negate the tax advantage the PA's salary has.

3. You'll notice I didn't take interest rate into account with the income invested. However, if I did, the PA would come out ahead since s/he had begun investing 7 yrs earlier and had the benefit of compound interest working for them.

4. After 40, the MD will begin to do better than the PA in terms of wealth generation. However, I am a firm believer in Hedonic Adaptation- there is a limit to how much happiness money can buy. Diminishing returns. I believe that the happiness levels of both the MD and the PA will be determined more, at this point, by their social relationships and professional fulfillment than by money.

Conclusion:
My original post was not about comparing medicine and PA. It merely stated that PA is an amazing field. This analysis shows that, indeed, being a PA is a good way to go and it helps people achieve financial success.

It is always better to choose a career considering multiple factors, such as professional fulfillment, than solely relying on income. Income is, however, a significant factor.

Just throwing this out there but pa requires clinical experience like 1500 hours I believe. So it would take students at least a year of working/ getting some certificate to get those clinical hours.

 

[Incis0r]

Just throwing this out there but pa requires clinical experience like 1500 hours I believe. So it would take students at least a year of working/ getting some certificate to get those clinical hours.

True, but in light of the extensive extracurricular commitments for Med School (research, shadowing, volunteering, and time spent studying for the MCAT while only some PA programs require GRE), I think this can be negated.

 

[Confused1617]

True, but in light of the extensive extracurricular commitments for Med School (research, shadowing, volunteering, and time spent studying for the MCAT while only some PA programs require GRE), I think this can be negated.

I only mention this because I considered pa school, and it was difficult to find part time job. However, research, volunteering etc were not difficult. Shadowing for md is not required. I think 40 is the max you need.
I have a cna certificate and no one wanted to hire me for the weekends or a few hours every day.

 

[ClosetNerd828]

well someone must have bailed because I just got another acceptance! LOL!! thanks OP

 

[Incis0r]

well someone must have bailed because I just got another acceptance! LOL!! thanks OP

Congratulations!!!!!

 

[Cello]

True, but in light of the extensive extracurricular commitments for Med School (research, shadowing, volunteering, and time spent studying for the MCAT while only some PA programs require GRE), I think this can be negated.

It is significantly harder to get the work experience than it is to volunteer. 1,500 hour is a nearly full-time job for one year. You can fit volunteering and research between classes. You can't fit clinical jobs between classes so easily because the hours are odd, and you can't break them up typically like you can with some full-time jobs.

 

[musicplease]

it really is scary how specialties require tuition, how anyone is going to pay back 800K+ in loans without help is beyond me.

 

[musicplease]

I am a periodontist practicing in central PA. The area I practice is definitely a small town. I thought I would like to pitch in my two cents. There are a few points I would like to address:

The debt:
This is why you should always pick the cheapest school. There is a big difference between a 300k vs. 500k debt. When I went to dental school I didn't pick the cheapest school I got accepted to (but not the most expensive one either) and that is probably the worst financial decision I've made in my life.

i completely agree with this, the school you go to for 4 years should be the cheapest one you got into so that you can live the rest of your life without regrets!

 

[ERDOC555]

So - I'd like to begin by first saying that this is a throwaway, because I don't really feel like having any of you discover who I am - (never underestimate the power of the internet. Dentistry is a very “front” facing profession. Your mug will be plastered on the website of whatever office you decide to work at.) Because of this, I will try to keep personal details to a min.

What has compelled me to go back to SDN, and write what appears to be a memoir? I’m fed up with the field, and everything it stands for. My brother is EM physician (just finished his residency a few years back), and I am pretty sure I'm able to see both sides.

So, young‘uns - 1st - SDN has a reputation for being all doom and gloom. A “sky is falling mentality” I guess. Can’t say I chuckled when I first started going through threads several years back during dental school. But now as a graduate, and practicing dentist… its funny how things work out. The field is saturated, and due to market forces we, as dentists can’t really control, it is definitely headed in a downwards trajectory. Don’t say I didn’t warn you guys.

I graduated roughly 5 years ago. I came out with several hundred thousand dollars of debt. I didn’t think too much about paying them off - I figured I’d just start associating and the rest would take care of itself.

I’m making good progress on it - but my issues with dentistry lie not so much with the debt (although thats a huge part - especially nowadays. Other people have covered this - so I’m not going to delve into it too much), but other issues with the field most people wouldn’t think about if they were applying today.

1) SATURATION. I kid you not - Dentistry is headed towards a zero sum race to the bottom.
There really are too many dentists. Straight up - the field is headed the way of pharmacy. Dental chains are buying out every retiring dentist, and squeezing out completion. On the surface - you’re like “oh - well the ADA says that we’re facing a shortage of dentists! They NEED me!” No. Stop. If you actually think this, go back and apply to medical school, where residency spots are tied to funding, and can’t be multiplied 2x at a whim. I have friends who graduated in my class who are still stuck with 90k associating gigs.​

I firmly believe that the issue is mainly because 1) Too many grads with too many loans are flooding the marketplace, and more importantly - 2) Older dentists ARE NOT RETIRING. This is HUGE. If you go back to 2001-2002, people were saying that dentistry would be facing a shortage, that there wouldn’t be enough docs to make sure little Timmy’s tooth decay wouldn’t go unchecked.​

The reason why dentistry has been so hot recently? Well, articles like this: http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/slideshows/the-25-best-jobs-of-2015/2 and others in Business Insider, CNN, etc. I feel, are pushing a lot of people into the field who ordinarily wouldn’t have bothered looking at it.​

The numbers of dentists needed today per 100,000 people are less than what was needed two decades ago. Dentists today are more efficient, have broader training, and are capable of doing more (no more referring everything out - new docs are now doing extractions, Invisalign, you name it). But older docs aren’t retiring. What happens is a “semi-retirement” where the doc comes in 1 day a week, still owns the office, etc, and the poor associate is only making ~90k a year (60k after taxes, and 30k after repaying loans. I’m not kidding). This all resulted in a huge increase in the # of dentists, especially after the financial crisis. According to a recent ADA survey - 1/3 of dentists AREN’T busy enough! This is huge! In addition, the number of dentists has continued to go up EACH year, after the ADA said there was a shortage back in ~2005

2) The debt isn’t quite worth it anymore. I graduated 5 years back, and I thought my debt was a lot. For everyone intending to go 300-500k in debt, you realize thats 30k+ in interest every year? Paying pack 4k a month out of every paycheck? For what its worth - you’re making ~90k when you start. The way the field is now, a GPR is basically essential. You realize you’re in school ONLY 2 years less than an EM physician? And they get paid ~330k when they start working. 2 extra years, and you quadruple your salary? I firmly believe anyone who is in dental school could easily have gone to med school, even if you need to do a postbacc - it’s within range. Strictly financially, Medicine has FAR more to offer.

3) You feel like a used car salesman with all the competition.

If you’re an introverted person, or are not comfortable “coaxing” people to accept procedures they might not otherwise, drop out of the field right now. This isn’t even corporate - its you trying to keep your office afloat/trying to pay your student loans. Yes, that patient 50/50 could have a crown or no, but if YOU don’t do it, another dentist down the street IS going to do it, and pocket the $2000 themselves.

Back in the day (think 80’s) if a tooth didn’t hurt/bug the patient, the dentist left it alone. Nowadays, with every one and their mom is trying to sell each patient a full mouth reconstruction (as well as offering massages and other bull**** remedies) is it no wonder people don’t take dentists seriously? No joke, the office down the street from me is a “Dental Spa” that offers a full range a skin rejuvenations, massages, and other girly/try-hard stuff I’ll have to ask my wife about because I don’t know what any of it is

4) Backbreaking work. No joke it’s only been five years, and my lower back is killing me very day. My hands hurt, and my shoulders feel like they're made of stone. Add in the fact I'm looking at mouths all day - the novelty has worn off.

5) The job itself leaves much to be desired. You clean/fix teeth. Thats it. You don’t do complex jaw surgeries (no, Mr. Oral Surgeon - you don’t. You pull 3rds all day in private practice pretending you're a doctor) and you definitely don’t do anything reconstructive asides from teeth. You’re a glorified tooth mechanic. Now don’t get me wrong - I love what I do - but there are other things that now, after several years of practice, I feel like I would also derive pleasure from doing.

6) Insurance companies will f****** gut you and leave you to die on the street. Reimbursements are going down . You might ask — “why does this affect me? I’m going to run a FFS practice!” It affects you because FFS is only viable in certain areas - Anywhere from 0% (lol you wish) to 80% of your payer mix will be PPO. Delta Dental is the bane of my existence and basically a monopoly in several places - they provide dental insurance coverage for 1/3 of the adults in the United States. This monopoly is FEDERALLY protected - meaning there’s no competition for dental benefits/price. The McCarran–Ferguson Act (http://healthcarereform.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=001890) basically allows this. I can’t drop them because 40% of my patients have their insurance, and last year when they decided to cut fees in my area by 5%, I got screwed to the tune of 70-80k in lost income. This leads me to my next point…

7) Dentistry is influenced by market trends/the squeezing of the middle class. The middle class is getting squeezed. Now this definitely affects you, because 20+ years ago, many, many more jobs were unionized, more people had dental insurance, and more people took the time to see the dentist. Average family income (adjusted for inflation) hasn’t risen in a decade! Things like raising the minimum wage, for example, will actually HELP dentists because it makes the average person more likely to afford/see a dentist. But the way it is now, the average family is poorer than they were 10 years ago, and this translates to less than 50% of us adults actually having dental insurance and an even smaller amount using it.

8) Other minor things - such as running an office, insurance write-offs, dealing with people in general, and lack of respect among EVERYONE (the latter being a pretty small issue, as least for me - but I know how neurotic everyone is on SDN, so this might be something to keep in mind)​

Now - all this might seems sort of convoluted. I’m typing this right now after a particularly frustering day at my office. I can see how this profession might have worked a decade or two ago. But I swear to god - I’m not sure if the next 10 years are going to be very much fun for anyone. I have zero bargaining power with insurance companies. Incomes have stagnated - and as a new dentist, you can expect maybe 90k-120k or so - and you’ll be stuck at that level for 2-5+ years. The real kicker is the saturation though. All the rest, most people can deal with. But when 4+ offices go bankrupt in my suburb every year - I’m starting to realize that the field is cracking. Incomes are slowly decreasing - I expect within 5 years or so average starting salary for an associate will be in the 80-100k range (it already is in a lot of places)



For all the people who think I’m some sort of SDN troll - heres a QA section for ya:

Q. You sound mad - well, I’ll have you know- I’m going to be a super dentist! I’ll be the one to buck trends and pay off my 400k loans in 5 years! Just watch me!

A. Ok, Jimmy, good luck. With 400k in loans, no bank is going to loan you money to even purchase a practice. You’ll be making 90k for the next 7 years. You can moonlight as a doctor while in residency and make more than that



Q. Why did you even go into Dentistry if you hate it?

A. I still like dentistry - it’s just that the field is dying, or at least, headed towards a huge “market correction” and I can see it clearly from my vantage point. I feel like a pharmacist circa 2000 making 120k, and life was good. Fast forward 10 years…


Q. Where are you pulling that figure from - 90k as a starting salary of a dentist? Every survey I see says 140k.

A. Those salary surveys are compounded over years and years - meaning they still have data from 2005 when associates used to be paid $500+ a day and 35%+ of production. That doesn’t exist anymore. Today, you can expect to make 90k to 120k if you want to live anywhere within 100 miles of a major city. And if you say that you won’t - you’re lying. This is EVERYONE. Don’t lie to yourself and say you want to live in an oilfield in North Dakota. You guys are what - 19-20 years old in the forum? Do you guys understand that at 27/28/29, when you graduate/finish your residency, you’ll be thinking of getting married. Getting settled down, having a wife and kids - and trust me, your wife won’t want to wake up and chase moose off your property.


Q. Where do you see dentistry in 10 years?

A. At the same level as pharmacists, job opportunity wise. Salaries will continue to drop, and the dentist/population ratio will skyrocket leading to declining income (Hell, my income dropped ~30k as an owner the past two years.) If there isn’t a dentist in every Walmart by then, well color me surprised (KIDDING - most will probably be in strip malls, to be honest). Loans will render most graduates unable to purchase practices because they’ll be owned by chains, and most dentists will just be employees making peanuts for their education (look at pharmacy - the other field that doesn't have mandatory residencies/where it's easy to open up a school)


Q. You mentioned your brother was an EM physician. Is how does he view things in the healthcare field right now?

A. First and foremost, I should state my brother doesn't give a f*** about dentists. As in - while Dentists (even the predents in this forum) have this insecurity complex about not being "real doctors", the number of times "dentist" crosses my brothers mind is laughably small. When was the last time you thought about an optometrist? When you needed new glasses 3 years back, otherwise you forget they exist. Thats how 90% of people view dentists

Now for the meat. My brother makes (slightly adjusted) around 320k gross income right now. His first contract out of fellowship was for around 275k. I make around 160k as an owner. 2 years back, I was at 190k, but Delta Dental decided to cut my reimbursement, and now I'm working twice as hard to woo patients to get their teeth taken care of so they don't show up in front of my brother in the ER because of an abscess. I don't give massages or have a spa at my practice, so another few points docked for me.

Physicians like to moan and groan about how the government is out to get them, their pay will be docked, etc. But the fact is - it's not going to happen - at least anytime. The AMA is extremely powerful, and there are well over 1 million physicians in the United States. Supply and Demand doesn't even play a role, because the number of residency spots is governed by government funding levels (which hasn't risen in a decade), and thanks to political gridlock, probably wont rise for the 20 years.

Dentists - all you need is a new school, and suddenly over a 10 year period, you have 1500 new dentists in one geographical area.... all trying to sell you a massage along with your prophy...



My final word to you all? Do anything else. Trust me. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Signed,

-A Current Dentist

PS. I'm posting this here because I realize many of you are too young and don't/are unable to frequent DentalTown. I'm simply keeping guys in the loop. I would have appreciated it if someone did for me back in the day when I was applying - I'm just passing it forward.

Interesting post! I actually really enjoy seeing the insider perspective for other fields like Dent, Pod, Opto, PA, etc.

The theme I'm seeing across many fields is that as long as their isn't an obstruction to creating new schools, saturation is inevitable. I've never been more thankful for those 4 extra years of residency than I am now!!!

Also, do you think Dentistry still has potential for big earning for a select few? The older Dentists? or maybe the ones running practices and paying new graduates next to nothing?

 

[jokersmiles]

Interesting post! I actually really enjoy seeing the insider perspective for other fields like Dent, Pod, Opto, PA, etc.

The theme I'm seeing across many fields is that as long as their isn't an obstruction to creating new schools, saturation is inevitable. I've never been more thankful for those 4 extra years of residency than I am now!!!

Also, do you think Dentistry still has potential for big earning for a select few? The older Dentists? or maybe the ones running practices and paying new graduates next to nothing?

I know this thread is a long read
but if you actually read through the 11 pages of text you will see that most practicing dentists on this forum disagree with the OP
and are saying that dentistry is actually still a great field

 

[GypsyHummus]

it really is scary how specialties require tuition, how anyone is going to pay back 800K+ in loans without help is beyond me.

When an ortho guy makes a million a year, it's not too difficult to pay back 800k.

Now for general dentist? I hope they like ramen.

 

[midman19]

When an ortho guy makes a million a year, it's not too difficult to pay back 800k.

Now for general dentist? I hope they like ramen.

Hope you don't actually think you'll make a million a year as an orthodontist.

 

[ClosetNerd828]

which one of you troglodytes though it would be a good idea to resurrect this thread????

 

[Blackhorse90]

This thread is still here?

 

[ERDOC555]

I know this thread is a long read
but if you actually read through the 11 pages of text you will see that most practicing dentists on this forum disagree with the OP
and are saying that dentistry is actually still a great field

I skimmed through a few bits. I have no doubt that Dentistry is still a good field, similar to every other health professions field. However, I think there has been a decline across the board in all fields and I find it interesting to see how things have changed over time and who is impacted. I'm sure there are dentists killing it as well as those who are not doing well at all. Also I can 100% believe that Dentists are happier than MDs.

 

[Dent5291]

Let this crap die already

 

[hellofuturedentists]

Let this crap die already

Sorry. Can't let it die. Everyone has to know to NOT go into Dentistry. It's saturated!!!!

 

[Tonya]

After reading this I feel stuck. I don't know whether to shake this guy's hands down thank him for taking the time to write such an informative post that may prevent me from doing something I regret or to just keep it moving and focus on getting into dental school next year. My father is also a dentist, so a lot of this stuff he was saying, I can recall my dad going through the same issues(issues with insurance, over saturation,etc.).

However, when my dad was in dental school(in the 1980's) damn near everyone was telling him to get out of the profession before it was too late because of how rapid it was expanding....but that was back then and it's different world we live in now.

So I don't know what to believe. I feel like speaking with a bunch of doctors and just make my opinion from there.

Oh God

 

[Biden_white]

I know this thread is a long read
but if you actually read through the 11 pages of text you will see that most practicing dentists on this forum disagree with the OP
and are saying that dentistry is actually still a great field

Wait - I saw the opposite? most practicing dentists actually AGREED with OP? There's another thread too floating around by another dentist who stated the same concerns....

I agreed with the OP a few days ago and I feel it's worth an explanation.

This profession is extremely dependent on location. It is pretty great if you are willing to live in the more "boring" locales. The competition is low and the cost of living is cheap. Insurance is avoidable. You are one of the wealthy guys in town. But if you are intent on practicing in any "sexy" area such as Coastal Cal, NYC, Miami, NoVA, Chicago; basically all the nice Metro or vacation type areas, it is as the OP describes. Competition is fierce, insurance dominates, cost of living is high. Lots of sleaziness and unethical practices.

As a GP you really need to be an owner to thrive. So if you are a practice owner in a "boring" area, you can have a lot of success. Like the guy in the "5 years out" thread. Pretty typical to be making $2-300k as an owner in those areas.

If you are an associate in a "sexy" location, it is a grind. Here in Socal you will probably make $5-600/day and there will be pressure to do unethical treatment. It's not fun. That's just the reality. And that may sound like a lot of money, but here in SoCal it doesn't get you very far.

So you need to figure out where you want to live and how you want to practice. If you're cool with living somewhere like Shreveport, LA or Lubbock, TX (random choices off a map), and quickly transition to ownership, you will probably do fantastic. But if you highly value living in the popular metro areas, the OP's description is pretty accurate. And if you have massive student loans, it's a bleak situation.

A couple other points. I'm 4 years out and have chronic back pain. It sucks and is not something I considered as a pre-dent. Also pay has decreased since I first became interested in dentistry 10 years ago. And there's like 10 new dental schools and the rest are adding seats with no end in sight.

If you want to punch the clock as an employee in SoCal, forget dentistry. It's too sleazy and the pay is not that great. Corporate dentistry in California is a nightmare. And $160k as an owner doesn't go very far when houses start at $500k, taxes are high, and you have to fund your own retirement.

I like to surf so I'm stuck in CA. I'm not too worried about it because I'm not chasing money and I don't have student loans. I just don't like all the crap I see with this profession, and it's mostly related to the saturation issue. I also do think Medicine has far better prospects, at least here in CA. Good luck.

In this thread - every single pre-dent acting like they know more than a 35 year old, practicing dentist.

Are you guys being serious? A bunch of 19 year olds telling a dentist how to run his practice as if he doesn't know? "Yeah, all you gotta do is advertise! You should have been weeded out during the interview! You can't get patients? You must be a bad dentist! Every single article I read on the internet (read: not the real world) says so!"

The naivety would be almost humorous, if it weren't so sad

SDN confuses me so much sometimes. Here's a practicing dentist, who comes in and give his 2 cents, and a bunch of 19 year old pre-dents rip him apart because he's not telling them the fantasy they want to hear. ("Yeah, I got out, got a 250k associating job, bought a ferarri, paid off my loans in 3 years...." No. Just no.)

I think the issue here is that a lot of the people here don't want/can't bear to hear the truth... because it would involve rewriting years of their life to focus on something different. It's hard - it is - and many people who were pressured to go into a health field by their family, or perhaps where looking for it to be the "holy grail" of careers .... Or perhaps because they didn't have the drive/mental fortitude to tough it out through med school (yes, a divisive, but somewhat true statement - as much as many people here hate to admit)

There is no magic bullet career wise. Pick something you like - not because you read about it on some internet pre-med forum, but because you truly find it interesting.

If all you care about is the money - Software engineering is exploding, and is here to stay. They make ~100k plus benefits. Many business careers are also exploding - the recession is over and businesses are hiring like mad. Check out this article: http://www.financialsamurai.com/how-to-make-six-figures-income-at-almost-any-age/

I'm sure most of you care about dentistry with all your heart. But life isn't a zero sum game. There isn't just "one" career you're destined to be in - and MOST people would be happy in a wide variety of careers - in fact, most people switch several times in their lives. It's nothing to be ashamed about. It's nothing to be scared about.

It's just life...

The other thing I want to point out is that these threads are appearing more and more frequently over the years.

Do you guys actually think people would post these threads if there weren't actually signs of trouble?

The pharmacy forum had these threads for years - since at least 2008 - before anyone took them seriously. Then suddenly **** hit the fan, and people acknowledged that the job market sucked, and half their graduating class couldn't find a job.

People here keep ignoring it, and ignoring it - wanting every single thread to match their preconceived notions about what they want the field to be like. It's scary how strong this SDN groupthink is. Part of being an adult/an educated person, is being able to entertain ideas you might not necessarily agree with

Meanwhile, we have a bunch of 19 year old pre-dents who have - quite literally - never worked a day in their lives - telling a dentist how to advertise, how to talk to patients, what "he's doing wrong"

Imaging a 19 year old pre-med in an operating room berating the heart surgeon for not doing his job right. He'd probably be laughed out of the room. That 19 year old is SDN...

I would like to comment on this thread. Well....maybe more vent then comment. I'm a dentist who has been out of school for 4 years. There is a lot of talk on here about the financial aspects of why you shouldn't go into dentistry if you have a high debt load. I wanted to add to the "doom and gloom" but from other aspects of dentistry. Here are my thoughts:

Dentistry is hard. Some days I just wish I didn't have to go back. If you are not a so called "people person" then having to deal with people all day long is exhausting. 4/10 patients just suck. They are not very nice people. When you see 10-20 patients a day that adds up quickly. Patients can be rude, condescending, pushy, and have unreal expectations. Some patients just suck the life out of you and your team. They are so high maintenance. Dealing with people goes beyond the patients themselves. You also have to deal with parents and spouses. Which can be even worse sometimes. After that you have to deal with the team. Most of my assistants (I work for a group practice as an associate) are in their young 20s and don't know how to work hard. They lounge around and it drives me nuts. I guess my point here is that if you don't like to deal with people, then dentistry is most certainly not for you.

I'm so tired of injections too. I work in a state where hygiene can't anesthetize. I don't like causing pain to people and I stab them with needles all day long. I'm tired of hearing the phrase "no offense doc, but I hate the dentist!". I'm tired of hearing people say "I just don't like needles".....who the hell does like needles? What kind of statement is that? I'm tired of having patients tell me "they can't lie back in the chair all the way".....um....how the hell do you sleep at night? Oh...you lie down to sleep....then you will be ok for the next half hour laying down in my chair....COME ON (GOB style from arrested development).

My back is killing me. I had this 400 pound African American man in my chair last week. He couldn't lie back in the chair all the way. So I stood up for 35 minutes troughing out some majorly clubed roots on tooth 12. The man was incredibly rude. It hurts all the time. I have 4.5 mag loupes and try my best to exercise good ergonomics;however, my back still hurts. I'm going to be cuasimoto in 10 years.

I'm tired of the smells. Smell of periodontal disease, smell of abscesses, smell of unsanitary patients, smell of burning decay. I actually like the smell of the bond I use. Optibond XTR. Smells good.

I'm so tired of the stupid crap that patients say that I don't even bother educating them anymore. "the baby sucked out all the calcium in my teeth, thats why I have so many cavities", "My teeth were so perfect five years ago, until I let that one dentist do a filling and now he jacked up all my teeth".

I'm tired of the drug seekers. "Um,....ya.....I'm allergic to motrin, hydrocodone....but I can take....whats that drug....oxy......oxy......oxycodone. Ya that is the one I can take. "I'm going to need more then 12 pills....I'm in so much pain!" The act they put on just sends me through the roof.

I'm tired of everyone else in my life thinking that I'm rich. Expecting me to pay for everything. I'm tired of people saying "I just paid for your new boat house"....or "I paid for your kids to go to college".....Um...you paid me for a service and I did it very well.

Real world dentistry is hard. Composites can be very difficult to obtain a A+ result. It takes time and proper equipment and great hands. Its even harder when you have a terrible patient in the chair. Dentures suck to do and so do difficult extractions.

If you take insurance like my practice....the reimbursement rates can be very minimal. To truly make a lot of money as a associate you have to be balling all the time. You have to be very productive. I'm not. I'm not very good at treatment acceptance and don't do highly productive procedures.

For the sake of keeping with the thread, from my own eyes, I do not agree with the OP that the profession is saturated. There are markets that are truly saturated;however, there are more unsaturated areas then there are saturated. Most dentists I know do well. Debt can be managed.

Just know that there is a hell of a lot more negative aspects to dentistry then the high debt load. I wish that I would have known some of these things as a pre-dent. But how can you. Shadowing doesn't really show you everything that you need. Even in school you don't see what it will really be like.

Sorry for resurrecting this thread, but I just read through it again, and I am thoroughly convinced most pre-dents on this forum are delusional

 

[sumin5924]

Cause dentists who are making it big totally have the time or concern to post on public forums.

 

[Cello]

Wait - I saw the opposite? most practicing dentists actually AGREED with OP? There's another thread too floating around by another dentist who stated the same concerns....












Sorry for resurrecting this thread, but I just read through it again, and I am thoroughly convinced most pre-dents on this forum are delusional

How delusional does one have to be to think that they could convince people who have dedicated the last 3 or 4 years of their lives to this profession that they wasted their time, and on a forum no less?

 

[schmoob]

Maybe if they didn't work 32 hour weeks and spend time on SDN, they could make a little more money, or

How delusional does one have to be to think that they could convince people who have dedicated the last 3 or 4 years of their lives to this profession that they wasted their time, and on a forum no less?

Dude, I wish I can like a post multiple times.
Yours would have a hundred.

 

[Cello]

I would like to comment on this thread. Well....maybe more vent then comment. I'm a dentist who has been out of school for 4 years. There is a lot of talk on here about the financial aspects of why you shouldn't go into dentistry if you have a high debt load. I wanted to add to the "doom and gloom" but from other aspects of dentistry. Here are my thoughts:

Dentistry is hard. Some days I just wish I didn't have to go back. If you are not a so called "people person" then having to deal with people all day long is exhausting. 4/10 patients just suck. They are not very nice people. When you see 10-20 patients a day that adds up quickly. Patients can be rude, condescending, pushy, and have unreal expectations. Some patients just suck the life out of you and your team. They are so high maintenance. Dealing with people goes beyond the patients themselves. You also have to deal with parents and spouses. Which can be even worse sometimes. After that you have to deal with the team. Most of my assistants (I work for a group practice as an associate) are in their young 20s and don't know how to work hard. They lounge around and it drives me nuts. I guess my point here is that if you don't like to deal with people, then dentistry is most certainly not for you.

I'm so tired of injections too. I work in a state where hygiene can't anesthetize. I don't like causing pain to people and I stab them with needles all day long. I'm tired of hearing the phrase "no offense doc, but I hate the dentist!". I'm tired of hearing people say "I just don't like needles".....who the hell does like needles? What kind of statement is that? I'm tired of having patients tell me "they can't lie back in the chair all the way".....um....how the hell do you sleep at night? Oh...you lie down to sleep....then you will be ok for the next half hour laying down in my chair....COME ON (GOB style from arrested development).

My back is killing me. I had this 400 pound African American man in my chair last week. He couldn't lie back in the chair all the way. So I stood up for 35 minutes troughing out some majorly clubed roots on tooth 12. The man was incredibly rude. It hurts all the time. I have 4.5 mag loupes and try my best to exercise good ergonomics;however, my back still hurts. I'm going to be cuasimoto in 10 years.

I'm tired of the smells. Smell of periodontal disease, smell of abscesses, smell of unsanitary patients, smell of burning decay. I actually like the smell of the bond I use. Optibond XTR. Smells good.

I'm so tired of the stupid crap that patients say that I don't even bother educating them anymore. "the baby sucked out all the calcium in my teeth, thats why I have so many cavities", "My teeth were so perfect five years ago, until I let that one dentist do a filling and now he jacked up all my teeth".

I'm tired of the drug seekers. "Um,....ya.....I'm allergic to motrin, hydrocodone....but I can take....whats that drug....oxy......oxy......oxycodone. Ya that is the one I can take. "I'm going to need more then 12 pills....I'm in so much pain!" The act they put on just sends me through the roof.

I'm tired of everyone else in my life thinking that I'm rich. Expecting me to pay for everything. I'm tired of people saying "I just paid for your new boat house"....or "I paid for your kids to go to college".....Um...you paid me for a service and I did it very well.

Real world dentistry is hard. Composites can be very difficult to obtain a A+ result. It takes time and proper equipment and great hands. Its even harder when you have a terrible patient in the chair. Dentures suck to do and so do difficult extractions.

If you take insurance like my practice....the reimbursement rates can be very minimal. To truly make a lot of money as a associate you have to be balling all the time. You have to be very productive. I'm not. I'm not very good at treatment acceptance and don't do highly productive procedures.

For the sake of keeping with the thread, from my own eyes, I do not agree with the OP that the profession is saturated. There are markets that are truly saturated;however, there are more unsaturated areas then there are saturated. Most dentists I know do well. Debt can be managed.

Just know that there is a hell of a lot more negative aspects to dentistry then the high debt load. I wish that I would have known some of these things as a pre-dent. But how can you. Shadowing doesn't really show you everything that you need. Even in school you don't see what it will really be like.

Lots of jobs are hard. I don't know what kind of work you did before dental school, but I know that most dentists have mostly worked summer jobs and such. I had a summer job working at an asphalt plant which I converted to a full-time job to ride out the economy during the recession.

If you want to know how bad it can be working with bad teams, my boss strangled one of my coworkers in front of my entire crew just to put him in his place. The regional manager once threatened to kick my ass while kicking over a garbage can if I dared talk back to him again. I hated going back, but I knew I was lucky to have a job when many of my friends were out of work and living with their parents after college. A typical workday for me involved the merciless self-loathing which comes from working with a boss who reminds you that you are worthless and that anyone, especially a monkey, could do a better job than you. Overtime is absolutely expected, and the conditions are brutal. 350 degrees of molten asphalt smells bad and it's dangerous. I wore an H2S monitor to warn me if I was exposed to more than 30ppm of H2s, but I worked a nightshift by myself with no rescue. My alarm went off many times, and I became really good at holding my breath while climbing up and down ladders on railcars.

I threw 20,000lbs of polymer, 70lbs at a time, by hand into giant mix tanks, my back screaming for mercy the whole time. I used 5 and 6 foot pipe wrenches with cheater bars on valves and covers which were completely sealed with cold asphalt and rust. I received numerous burns from hot steam, hot oil, and hot asphalt. You want to talk about odor? The smell of molten asphalt when you are on top of a tank is enough to make you vomit, believe me. Hell, you can just ask the houses which complained about our plant and were located a quarter of a mile away.

Crawling under railcars with a 20gallon torch to burn the asphalt off the valves will test anyone's patience. Before long you find yourself beating on lids and valve covers with wrenches out of sheer frustration. You hit your back on anything and everything under the cars, and the hot steam you hook up will burn you from time to time. If you're lucky, you won't be cooked alive like a guy at our sister plant was...

We worked overtime, rotating 12 hour shifts, and our work varied from extreme boredom, to being ridiculously busy. In the world of hard labor, if you don't like someone you don't just gossip about them or complain behind their back; you tell them straight to their face, and you may just end up in a physical altercation (luckily I never did).

People showed up to work high, drunk, etc. One guy did lines of coke on the laboratory bench. Two of my other colleagues frequently had sex with hookers in the scale room on the computer desk, one of them contracted a venereal disease from one such liaison. I dealt with all of this for a salary of roughly $40,000.

I spent a lot of time at that job figuring out what to do with the rest of my life. My boss laughed at the idea of any of us doing anything better with our lives. I'll be damned if someone on a forum is going to tell me that there are all of these great jobs to be had and that dentistry is the yellow patch of lawn in front of the row house in the bad part of town. Is it a perfect career? No, it certainly doesn't sound that way. Did you expect it to be? I certainly don't. All I know is, I want a job where I actually respect myself, and where I can help people. Dentistry may be hard, but there a whole lot of jobs out there which are a whole lot harder and which reward you a whole lot less.

 

[Incis0r]

Lots of jobs are hard. I don't know what kind of work you did before dental school, but I know that most dentists have mostly worked summer jobs and such. I had a summer job working at an asphalt plant which I converted to a full-time job to ride out the economy during the recession.

If you want to know how bad it can be working with bad teams, my boss strangled one of my coworkers in front of my entire crew just to put him in his place. The regional manager once threatened to kick my ass while kicking over a garbage can if I dared talk back to him again. I hated going back, but I knew I was lucky to have a job when many of my friends were out of work and living with their parents after college. A typical workday for me involved the merciless self-loathing which comes from working with a boss who reminds you that you are worthless and that anyone, especially a monkey, could do a better job than you. Overtime is absolutely expected, and the conditions are brutal. 350 degrees of molten asphalt smells bad and it's dangerous. I wore an H2S monitor to warn me if I was exposed to more than 30ppm of H2s, but I worked a nightshift by myself with no rescue. My alarm went off many times, and I became really good at holding my breath while climbing up and down ladders on railcars.

I threw 20,000lbs of polymer, 70lbs at a time, by hand into giant mix tanks, my back screaming for mercy the whole time. I used 5 and 6 foot pipe wrenches with cheater bars on valves and covers which were completely sealed with cold asphalt and rust. I received numerous burns from hot steam, hot oil, and hot asphalt. You want to talk about odor? The smell of molten asphalt when you are on top of a tank is enough to make you vomit, believe me. Hell, you can just ask the houses which complained about our plant and were located a quarter of a mile away.

Crawling under railcars with a 20gallon torch to burn the asphalt off the valves will test anyone's patience. Before long you find yourself beating on lids and valve covers with wrenches out of sheer frustration. You hit your back on anything and everything under the cars, and the hot steam you hook up will burn you from time to time. If you're lucky, you won't be cooked alive like a guy at our sister plant was...

We worked overtime, rotating 12 hour shifts, and our work varied from extreme boredom, to being ridiculously busy. In the world of hard labor, if you don't like someone you don't just gossip about them or complain behind their back; you tell them straight to their face, and you may just end up in a physical altercation (luckily I never did).

People showed up to work high, drunk, etc. One guy did lines of coke on the laboratory bench. Two of my other colleagues frequently had sex with hookers in the scale room on the computer desk, one of them contracted a venereal disease from one such liaison. I dealt with all of this for a salary of roughly $40,000.

I spent a lot of time at that job figuring out what to do with the rest of my life. My boss laughed at the idea of any of us doing anything better with our lives. I'll be damned if someone on a forum is going to tell me that there are all of these great jobs to be had and that dentistry is the yellow patch of lawn in front of the row house in the bad part of town. Is it a perfect career? No, it certainly doesn't sound that way. Did you expect it to be? I certainly don't. All I know is, I want a job where I actually respect myself, and where I can help people. Dentistry may be hard, but there a whole lot of jobs out there which are a whole lot harder and which reward you a whole lot less.

This is beautiful. You've earned yourself a follower . Thank you for some much-needed perspective.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Lots of jobs are hard. I don't know what kind of work you did before dental school, but I know that most dentists have mostly worked summer jobs and such. I had a summer job working at an asphalt plant which I converted to a full-time job to ride out the economy during the recession.

If you want to know how bad it can be working with bad teams, my boss strangled one of my coworkers in front of my entire crew just to put him in his place. The regional manager once threatened to kick my ass while kicking over a garbage can if I dared talk back to him again. I hated going back, but I knew I was lucky to have a job when many of my friends were out of work and living with their parents after college. A typical workday for me involved the merciless self-loathing which comes from working with a boss who reminds you that you are worthless and that anyone, especially a monkey, could do a better job than you. Overtime is absolutely expected, and the conditions are brutal. 350 degrees of molten asphalt smells bad and it's dangerous. I wore an H2S monitor to warn me if I was exposed to more than 30ppm of H2s, but I worked a nightshift by myself with no rescue. My alarm went off many times, and I became really good at holding my breath while climbing up and down ladders on railcars.

I threw 20,000lbs of polymer, 70lbs at a time, by hand into giant mix tanks, my back screaming for mercy the whole time. I used 5 and 6 foot pipe wrenches with cheater bars on valves and covers which were completely sealed with cold asphalt and rust. I received numerous burns from hot steam, hot oil, and hot asphalt. You want to talk about odor? The smell of molten asphalt when you are on top of a tank is enough to make you vomit, believe me. Hell, you can just ask the houses which complained about our plant and were located a quarter of a mile away.

Crawling under railcars with a 20gallon torch to burn the asphalt off the valves will test anyone's patience. Before long you find yourself beating on lids and valve covers with wrenches out of sheer frustration. You hit your back on anything and everything under the cars, and the hot steam you hook up will burn you from time to time. If you're lucky, you won't be cooked alive like a guy at our sister plant was...

We worked overtime, rotating 12 hour shifts, and our work varied from extreme boredom, to being ridiculously busy. In the world of hard labor, if you don't like someone you don't just gossip about them or complain behind their back; you tell them straight to their face, and you may just end up in a physical altercation (luckily I never did).

People showed up to work high, drunk, etc. One guy did lines of coke on the laboratory bench. Two of my other colleagues frequently had sex with hookers in the scale room on the computer desk, one of them contracted a venereal disease from one such liaison. I dealt with all of this for a salary of roughly $40,000.

I spent a lot of time at that job figuring out what to do with the rest of my life. My boss laughed at the idea of any of us doing anything better with our lives. I'll be damned if someone on a forum is going to tell me that there are all of these great jobs to be had and that dentistry is the yellow patch of lawn in front of the row house in the bad part of town. Is it a perfect career? No, it certainly doesn't sound that way. Did you expect it to be? I certainly don't. All I know is, I want a job where I actually respect myself, and where I can help people. Dentistry may be hard, but there a whole lot of jobs out there which are a whole lot harder and which reward you a whole lot less.

Agreed. At this point in time there is no ideal career. Lawyers have it bad, doctors are miserable, and even for PA, the demand was high but the supply is SKY ROCKETING! PA schools are becoming accredited left and right and it is going to catch up with them. Every dentist does say there are saturation issues, BUT MAINLY in big time/attractive cities. They all say if you're willing to live where there is a need for a dentist then you will be totally fine. The debt is obviously scary and can hurt. There is no other way about it except to be smart and budget. If you live like a medical resident after you graduate dental school and don't go out and buy a nice Lexus with a tricked out house then you will still be fine.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Props to you for making it through that grueling process. People in the health care field don't know how good they got it.

Dentists have it so much better than pharmacy or Optometry students, and it looks like, soon to be PA. Heck, at least dentists don't have midlevel providers telling you that they can do your job for a fraction of the cost.

Lots of jobs are hard. I don't know what kind of work you did before dental school, but I know that most dentists have mostly worked summer jobs and such. I had a summer job working at an asphalt plant which I converted to a full-time job to ride out the economy during the recession.

If you want to know how bad it can be working with bad teams, my boss strangled one of my coworkers in front of my entire crew just to put him in his place. The regional manager once threatened to kick my ass while kicking over a garbage can if I dared talk back to him again. I hated going back, but I knew I was lucky to have a job when many of my friends were out of work and living with their parents after college. A typical workday for me involved the merciless self-loathing which comes from working with a boss who reminds you that you are worthless and that anyone, especially a monkey, could do a better job than you. Overtime is absolutely expected, and the conditions are brutal. 350 degrees of molten asphalt smells bad and it's dangerous. I wore an H2S monitor to warn me if I was exposed to more than 30ppm of H2s, but I worked a nightshift by myself with no rescue. My alarm went off many times, and I became really good at holding my breath while climbing up and down ladders on railcars.

I threw 20,000lbs of polymer, 70lbs at a time, by hand into giant mix tanks, my back screaming for mercy the whole time. I used 5 and 6 foot pipe wrenches with cheater bars on valves and covers which were completely sealed with cold asphalt and rust. I received numerous burns from hot steam, hot oil, and hot asphalt. You want to talk about odor? The smell of molten asphalt when you are on top of a tank is enough to make you vomit, believe me. Hell, you can just ask the houses which complained about our plant and were located a quarter of a mile away.

Crawling under railcars with a 20gallon torch to burn the asphalt off the valves will test anyone's patience. Before long you find yourself beating on lids and valve covers with wrenches out of sheer frustration. You hit your back on anything and everything under the cars, and the hot steam you hook up will burn you from time to time. If you're lucky, you won't be cooked alive like a guy at our sister plant was...

We worked overtime, rotating 12 hour shifts, and our work varied from extreme boredom, to being ridiculously busy. In the world of hard labor, if you don't like someone you don't just gossip about them or complain behind their back; you tell them straight to their face, and you may just end up in a physical altercation (luckily I never did).

People showed up to work high, drunk, etc. One guy did lines of coke on the laboratory bench. Two of my other colleagues frequently had sex with hookers in the scale room on the computer desk, one of them contracted a venereal disease from one such liaison. I dealt with all of this for a salary of roughly $40,000.

I spent a lot of time at that job figuring out what to do with the rest of my life. My boss laughed at the idea of any of us doing anything better with our lives. I'll be damned if someone on a forum is going to tell me that there are all of these great jobs to be had and that dentistry is the yellow patch of lawn in front of the row house in the bad part of town. Is it a perfect career? No, it certainly doesn't sound that way. Did you expect it to be? I certainly don't. All I know is, I want a job where I actually respect myself, and where I can help people. Dentistry may be hard, but there a whole lot of jobs out there which are a whole lot harder and which reward you a whole lot less.

 

[PocketRocket]

Stop identifying with your job people. "You are not your khakis"
- Tyler Durden

 

[Bernie Sanders]

Props to you for making it through that grueling process. People in the health care field don't know how good they got it.

Dentists have it so much better than pharmacy or Optometry students, and it looks like, soon to be PA. Heck, at least dentists don't have midlevel providers telling you that they can do your job for a fraction of the cost.

I don't know PAs have it pretty good. And we do have MLPs: Advanced dental therapists

 

[Confused1617]

.

 

[Incis0r]

Heck, at least dentists don't have midlevel providers telling you that they can do your job for a fraction of the cost.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...l-therapists-oral-health-disparities/7422773/

 

[GypsyHummus]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...l-therapists-oral-health-disparities/7422773/

Well, at least your representing body is trying to do something about this. The AMA kind of just lets midlevels roll all over the medical landscape. They are starting to bleed into the medical specialties now, like cardiology