Do NOT go into Dentistry - Trust me it is SATURATED

[thesellsword]

How could you possibly know as much as you do about dentistry and saturation and income while you're only in dental school. You have as much experience practicing licensed dentistry in the real world as every predent in here - none.
Dental school is stressful, overwhelming, and sometimes one sees some things that don't sit well with us. That does not mean that is a representation of the field as a whole. It's no different from any other profession, it will have its negative sides; and it's negative people.
If there are things in dentistry you see that you don't like, you know not to do them.
There are lots of opportunities in the field, you don't have to do restorations all day in a private practice. There is hospital dentistry, public health, military, academia, etc...
You'll be alright. Good luck; hopefully the stress will subside soon.

You're right. I suppose the disillusionment just hit me hard...I can't see myself selling unnecessary cases to people and that seems the only way to stay afloat in private practice and do well. Military and public health in general do not well, plus I value independence. I think for me dentistry is largely going to be the degree I fall back on if the shtf...otherwise I want to practice something else that pays well and doesnt compromise my morals/ethics. Just my two cents. Apart from the people I know personally who are dentists, I'm going to just say that in general, I trust the dentist as much as I trust the corporate lawyer or the car mechanic who tells you every thing is broke in your car and will cost x,000$ to fix. Interpret that as you will. I'm open to revisiting this later. But I have seen way too much "treatment" that dentists attempted to sell to my parents, that now I see and verified through multiple sources were totally wrong and unnecessary.

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[Cranjis McBasketball]

You're right. I suppose the disillusionment just hit me hard...I can't see myself selling unnecessary cases to people and that seems the only way to stay afloat in private practice and do well. Military and public health in general do not well, plus I value independence. I think for me dentistry is largely going to be the degree I fall back on if the shtf...otherwise I want to practice something else that pays well and doesnt compromise my morals/ethics. Just my two cents. Apart from the people I know personally who are dentists, I'm going to just say that in general, I trust the dentist as much as I trust the corporate lawyer or the car mechanic who tells you every thing is broke in your car and will cost x,000$ to fix. Interpret that as you will. I'm open to revisiting this later. But I have seen way too much "treatment" that dentists attempted to sell to my parents, that now I see and verified through multiple sources were totally wrong and unnecessary.

Lol, you are trying to sit high and mighty, calling out pre dents, when your claims are from the same sources. You have tons of friends that have "said so." If you don't like how your life is right now then fix it and make changes. Complaining never did anyone any good.

 

[Incis0r]

Military and public health in general do not well

Can you elaborate?

 

[lemoncurry]

Again, that's what, 3-4 states/regions? Regardless, our oath as healthcare professionals doesn't mention "paying someone so you can operate on them in advance of damages you will inevitably cause by drilling the tooth".

I don't doubt that 120-156 figure, but what does it cost your soul? You can make a million bucks, I'm sure. But how much unnecessary treatment are you pushing on your patients? Again, your morals may be looser than mine.

As for the knowledge gap, I don't give a wooden whistle what anyone thinks of me. However, having a "Dr." in front my name gives people an expectation I should know everything about the body...well I don't. Yeah I know you'll probably say do oral surgery or something, well bottom line, I don't like OS. I can't afford to put off 4-6 more years. Sorry I'm not as rich as you either. For me, that Doctor in front of my name is a shameful scar.

I'm not going to practice dentistry. I'll find a way to pay these loans off, or maybe I will practice it long enough til I land a real job that makes real money that doesn't involve ripping people off and messing up your back. For those of you saying "lift Breh" or whatever, I do. I also regularly run 5ks and half marathons. That doesn't take away the back pain. How could you possibly know as predents? I encourage you to do more research on the field. This is my experience, and these are the conclusions I've drawn from my experiences. You're free to disagree, and if you can live with ripping people off or what have you, I can't say I respect that, but do what you gotta.

You don't have the benefit of seeing things from the perspective of a practicing dentist. Those lesions that you say you just need to "watch" (watch it do what, get worse?) or these unnecessary treatments are, in fact, usually necessary. When you start practicing for a while and you see the same patients over a period of time, you will get a much better feel for what is necessary and what isn't.

I can understand and appreciate your lofty aspirations to practice dentistry without really doing anything on a patient (said in humor), but it sounds like you need to wake up and smell the coffee. Take off the rose colored glasses. For every patient that you feel it's fine to just "watch" a tooth, there are 10 or more who don't follow your simple instructions and end up needing more extensive treatment. Patients, by and large, don't want to change their habits. They think they know best and are lazy. Sometimes you need to treatment plan fillings on incipient lesions because you know by the time you see the patient next, they will have crossed the DEJ.

Trust me, you don't really know dentistry until after you graduate and start working. Graduating is the most important thing for you right now.

 

[lemoncurry]

Working at an FQHC, technically I am public health dentistry. My first year out of school I was hired at 150k with full benefits and none of the business headaches.

 

[Incis0r]

Working at an FQHC, technically I am public health dentistry. My first year out of school I was hired at 150k with full benefits and none of the business headaches.

Do you not recommend an AEGD/GPR?

 

[thesellsword]

Lol, you are trying to sit high and mighty, calling out pre dents, when your claims are from the same sources. You have tons of friends that have "said so." If you don't like how your life is right now then fix it and make changes. Complaining never did anyone any good.

I'm not complaining. If you look at the responses around yours, no one seems to think that. I'm merely stating my perspective based on my experience in response to the topic of this thread. I recommend you brush you up on your reading comprehension.

I do know more than predents because
A.) I'm in a dental school, taught by (shock) dentists. Therefore unless you regularly hang out with tons of dentists, I doubt you have the breadth of experiences to draw from that I do.
B.) I have actually done dental work on live people, so by default my experience exceeds yours, as does most likely my level of education on matters of the mouth/teeth.
C.) No one is trying to sit "high and mighty" here aside from you. That could be due to your apparently poor reading comprehension skills, or simply that what I've said has hit a nerve and blinded you so as to miss the point of what I'm saying. I'm assuming your reading skills are competent, so most likely it's the latter. There's a lot to be gained from this discussion, not just from my perspective but from he other people on here who are sharing their experiences in a reasonable and mature way, without making judgmental comments that don't contribute to the discussion, such as yours.

 

[thesellsword]

You don't have the benefit of seeing things from the perspective of a practicing dentist. Those lesions that you say you just need to "watch" (watch it do what, get worse?) or these unnecessary treatments are, in fact, usually necessary. When you start practicing for a while and you see the same patients over a period of time, you will get a much better feel for what is necessary and what isn't.

I can understand and appreciate your lofty aspirations to practice dentistry without really doing anything on a patient (said in humor), but it sounds like you need to wake up and smell the coffee. Take off the rose colored glasses. For every patient that you feel it's fine to just "watch" a tooth, there are 10 or more who don't follow your simple instructions and end up needing more extensive treatment. Patients, by and large, don't want to change their habits. They think they know best and are lazy. Sometimes you need to treatment plan fillings on incipient lesions because you know by the time you see the patient next, they will have crossed the DEJ.

Trust me, you don't really know dentistry until after you graduate and start working. Graduating is the most important thing for you right now.

I'm interested in your experience. Can you please enlighten us a bit as to what you did post-dental school?

 

[lemoncurry]

I'm interested in your experience. Can you please enlighten us a bit as to what you did post-dental school?

Simply put, I went to work. My first and current job is for an FQHC, and I had a two year hiatus in corporate dentistry.

As for AEGD/GPR, I have nothing against them, but they aren't for everyone.


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[thesellsword]

Pardon my ignorance but what is FQHC?
And just curious, why did you leave corporate?

 

[lemoncurry]

Pardon my ignorance but what is FQHC?
And just curious, why did you leave corporate?

Federally Qualified Health Center.

I left corporate because I got tired of long days, working saturdays, seeing 20-30 patients a day, and dealing with corporate BS.

 

[cacazor]

i am just going to leave this here

https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfi...what_2year_degree_is_most_profitable_in_2016/

 

[0rgansm]

I want to go into the dental industry prepared. Can anyone PLEASE recommend a decent book that will give me the business sense I need to survive??

 

[kholley25]

I want to go into the dental industry prepared. Can anyone PLEASE recommend a decent book that will give me the business sense I need to survive??

Browse dentaltown. There's quite a few good suggestions there.

 

[Lethstang]

I havent posted here in years! Ever since I used to live on this board to get into dental school. Anyways, got redirected here from dentaltown. This thread is a hoot. The OP took the time out to tell you his personal experience and has gotten alot of hate for it. I loved reading the threads from the predents saying their dentist is booked out months in advance, takes 12 weeks of vacay a year, and no insurance. Like thats the norm and not the exception.

Anyways, a few stats from my class. Most are struggling. One lives with his mom. A few ballers are making it rain. Id say 3-5 of us out of 80. Do with that info what you will.. Its been great for me but hasnt been for most. For most of you who will be working for someone else for 4-7 years and not making any money, goodluck with that 3-4k a month student loan payment.

Make sure you are becoming a dentist because you like the idea of it and not just want to be a sort of dr. We had a few of those. They hate their life.

Be nice to the dentists who come here to post to give you real life advice.

Oh, and everyone in your dental class is going to be smarter than you. Goodluck.

 

[Flemish]

I havent posted here in years! Ever since I used to live on this board to get into dental school. Anyways, got redirected here from dentaltown. This thread is a hoot. The OP took the time out to tell you his personal experience and has gotten alot of hate for it. I loved reading the threads from the predents saying their dentist is booked out months in advance, takes 12 weeks of vacay a year, and no insurance. Like thats the norm and not the exception.

Anyways, a few stats from my class. Most are struggling. One lives with his mom. A few ballers are making it rain. Id say 3-5 of us out of 80. Do with that info what you will.. Its been great for me but hasnt been for most. For most of you who will be working for someone else for 4-7 years and not making any money, goodluck with that 3-4k a month student loan payment.

Make sure you are becoming a dentist because you like the idea of it and not just want to be a sort of dr. We had a few of those. They hate their life.

Be nice to the dentists who come here to post to give you real life advice.

Oh, and everyone in your dental class is going to be smarter than you. Goodluck.

Thank you for the reality check! I don't see why anyone hoping to be a dentist wouldn't be eager to hear this sort of information--even if it is a bit foreboding.

Might I ask where you went to school/practice? Do you know the case to be the same for other states around the nation as well?


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[urMDandDDS]

I attend NYU College of Dental Medicine, and the saturation definitely applies in the NYC/NJ/PA area. Faculty members have suggested we be open to moving to other states if necessary. I want to serve the underserved communities in the end, so I hope I can maintain this goal.

 

[medbunny56]

do you recommend going into medicine instead?

 

[computertime]

10 year dentist here, completely agree with original post here.
Sure, I've done well....Many don't. I've spent the time and money to basically train myself to perform near OMS levels of surgery....I've gone through massive ups and downs that would break a lot of people who don't truly enjoy dentistry.
You will work your first few years making scraps, unless you completely throw ethics/morals to the side and basically commit fraud on an hourly basis.
You must have a super personality and people skills to do extremely well in this business. (Everyone thinks they have this. Surprise, surprise very few actually do! all a mix of the right personality, body language, social skills. Patients can sniff you out immediately. If you are not a complete rockstar at all of these things, and earning a "friend" and "trust" level with all people...yea you're going to be wondering why such low % of your patients you never hear from again after presenting treatment. This is also geographical/racial, hate to say it. Indian doctor in primarily white town, White doctor in black town, etc.)

For instance, many of you who are pre-dent. If we met in person right now, there is a great chance that after a conversation I would think. Holy smokes, this person is stressed to the max, hope they find what it is they're looking for. A large percent of your dental class will be this way, and unfortunately very few will learn how to change that image to a more favorable one. Patients will smell it, and their practice will perform accordingly. Honestly, the happy go lucky people who say "ah, **** happens" after someone rams in to their parked car are the ones who will likely succeed in this field the most. The success mentality is what I keep touching on here.

Living on $20k a year? Sure, after you spend $50k+ per year paying debt, life insurance, health insurance(for family?++), child care? can crush you, disability insurance, rent, electricity bill, water bill, gas bill, your car note, groceries, gas, car insurance, malpractice, dental license, DEA license, Required CE, Cell phone bill, phone+cable bill, netflix, CPA tax returns, gym membership, doctor visits until deductible is met, christmas gifts to friends/family, any money spent towards making your significant other feel like you are actually human beings and they should appreciate being with you(date night? Xmas/bday Gift?), etc. Meanwhile you're missing out on IRA+401k+HSA contributions that can be a significant tax break, and also grow tax free/deferred from an early age in your life for massive compound interest over your lifetime.

Basically, everyone says "oh no problem, ill be a dentist, i'll just live in 20k a year upon graduation and pay debt down ez." Yea, no you won't. You absolutely will not.

 

[Incis0r]

This is also geographical, hate to say it. Indian doctor in primarily white town, etc.)

.

 

[computertime]

What's wrong with Indian doctors? I think they are pretty well received across the country.

Edited my post to make more sense. To be realistic to yourself, you have to accept that there is some level of truth to my statement.

 

[Incis0r]

Edited my post to make more sense. To be realistic to yourself, you have to accept that there is some level of truth to my statement.

I accept that there is truth to your statement in certain parts of the country. However, I do propose that there are many, many parts of the country where the skin color of the doctor does not matter to the patient.

 

[computertime]

I accept that there is truth to your statement in certain parts of the country. However, I do propose that there are many, many parts of the country where the skin color of the doctor does not matter to the patient.

Sure, I'll agree here. So, basically we are back to my original statement and can pretend that these few posts between us never happened.

 

[Incis0r]

Sure, I'll agree here. So, basically we are back to my original statement and can pretend that these few posts between us never happened.

I'll never forget these special moments

 

[FrenchyM.D/D.O]

What's wrong with White doctors? I think they are pretty well received across the country.


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[Cello]

10 year dentist here, completely agree with original post here.
Sure, I've done well....Many don't. I've spent the time and money to basically train myself to perform near OMS levels of surgery....I've gone through massive ups and downs that would break a lot of people who don't truly enjoy dentistry.
You will work your first few years making scraps, unless you completely throw ethics/morals to the side and basically commit fraud on an hourly basis.
You must have a super personality and people skills to do extremely well in this business. (Everyone thinks they have this. Surprise, surprise very few actually do! all a mix of the right personality, body language, social skills. Patients can sniff you out immediately. If you are not a complete rockstar at all of these things, and earning a "friend" and "trust" level with all people...yea you're going to be wondering why such low % of your patients you never hear from again after presenting treatment. This is also geographical/racial, hate to say it. Indian doctor in primarily white town, White doctor in black town, etc.)

For instance, many of you who are pre-dent. If we met in person right now, there is a great chance that after a conversation I would think. Holy smokes, this person is stressed to the max, hope they find what it is they're looking for. A large percent of your dental class will be this way, and unfortunately very few will learn how to change that image to a more favorable one. Patients will smell it, and their practice will perform accordingly. Honestly, the happy go lucky people who say "ah, **** happens" after someone rams in to their parked car are the ones who will likely succeed in this field the most. The success mentality is what I keep touching on here.

Living on $20k a year? Sure, after you spend $50k+ per year paying debt, life insurance, health insurance(for family?++), child care? can crush you, disability insurance, rent, electricity bill, water bill, gas bill, your car note, groceries, gas, car insurance, malpractice, dental license, DEA license, Required CE, Cell phone bill, phone+cable bill, netflix, CPA tax returns, gym membership, doctor visits until deductible is met, christmas gifts to friends/family, any money spent towards making your significant other feel like you are actually human beings and they should appreciate being with you(date night? Xmas/bday Gift?), etc. Meanwhile you're missing out on IRA+401k+HSA contributions that can be a significant tax break, and also grow tax free/deferred from an early age in your life for massive compound interest over your lifetime.

Basically, everyone says "oh no problem, ill be a dentist, i'll just live in 20k a year upon graduation and pay debt down ez." Yea, no you won't. You absolutely will not.

You're right that you won't, at least not if you're smart. The smart thing to do is try to refinance/consolidate your loans and get the lowest interest rates possible. Next, invest the money you would have spent on the loans in the market and see a higher rate of return than what you are spending on the student loan interest. Or, if you are the gambling type, save some money to invest in something (possibly even your first practice).

I havent posted here in years! Ever since I used to live on this board to get into dental school. Anyways, got redirected here from dentaltown. This thread is a hoot. The OP took the time out to tell you his personal experience and has gotten alot of hate for it. I loved reading the threads from the predents saying their dentist is booked out months in advance, takes 12 weeks of vacay a year, and no insurance. Like thats the norm and not the exception.

Anyways, a few stats from my class. Most are struggling. One lives with his mom. A few ballers are making it rain. Id say 3-5 of us out of 80. Do with that info what you will.. Its been great for me but hasnt been for most. For most of you who will be working for someone else for 4-7 years and not making any money, goodluck with that 3-4k a month student loan payment.

Make sure you are becoming a dentist because you like the idea of it and not just want to be a sort of dr. We had a few of those. They hate their life.

Be nice to the dentists who come here to post to give you real life advice.

Oh, and everyone in your dental class is going to be smarter than you. Goodluck.

If dentistry is so bad for them, why don't they do something else? It's not all that hard to get a job as a web developer making $60k to start. So why not do that? Why would you remain in a profession which forces you to live with your mother? I was living away from home making just above minimum wage. I become skeptical when I read things like that because my immediate question is, how motivated is this person to get out from under their mother's roof?

 

[Mascota]

"(This is also geographical/racial, hate to say it. Indian doctor in primarily white town, White doctor in black town, etc.)"

I accept that there is truth to your statement in certain parts of the country. However, I do propose that there are many, many parts of the country where the skin color of the doctor does not matter to the patient.

I interpreted this statement differently - what came to my mind when I read this was that you need to be able to connect with and understand the culture, customs, values, personality of the community you're going to work in. So depending on where you grew up and the cultures you been exposed to, it might be harder for you adapt - i.e. Indian/black doctor in a white neighborhood or a white doctor in an Indian/black neighborhood. And this goes beyond race - someone who grew up in Manhattan and went to private schools might have a hard time connecting with people in a coal town with miners who never went to college, and the opposite it true. People tend to subconsciously like individuals who look, talk, and act like them and they use clothing, language, race etc. as a way to make those judgments. Once you've proven you can connect with people of a different demographic word will get around and you'll do well, but you've got to be very self aware/critical to adapt.

Basically, be a adaptable to new cultures or go somewhere you know for a better chance of success.

 

[Incis0r]

"(This is also geographical/racial, hate to say it. Indian doctor in primarily white town, White doctor in black town, etc.)"



I interpreted this statement differently - what came to my mind when I read this was that you need to be able to connect with and understand the culture, customs, values, personality of the community you're going to work in. So depending on where you grew up and the cultures you been exposed to, it might be harder for you adapt - i.e. Indian/black doctor in a white neighborhood or a white doctor in an Indian/black neighborhood. And this goes beyond race - someone who grew up in Manhattan and went to private schools might have a hard time connecting with people in a coal town with miners who never went to college, and the opposite it true. People tend to subconsciously like individuals who look, talk, and act like them and they use clothing, language, race etc. as a way to make those judgments. Once you've proven you can connect with people of a different demographic word will get around and you'll do well, but you've got to be very self aware/critical to adapt.

Basically, be a adaptable to new cultures or go somewhere you know for a better chance of success.

What a beautiful statement. 10/10 agreed with you, Mascota.

 

[321931]

This is true. Sad but true.

Edited: Didn't seem politically correct.

 

[schmoob]

10 year dentist here, completely agree with original post here.
Sure, I've done well....Many don't. I've spent the time and money to basically train myself to perform near OMS levels of surgery....I've gone through massive ups and downs that would break a lot of people who don't truly enjoy dentistry.
You will work your first few years making scraps, unless you completely throw ethics/morals to the side and basically commit fraud on an hourly basis.
You must have a super personality and people skills to do extremely well in this business. (Everyone thinks they have this. Surprise, surprise very few actually do! all a mix of the right personality, body language, social skills. Patients can sniff you out immediately. If you are not a complete rockstar at all of these things, and earning a "friend" and "trust" level with all people...yea you're going to be wondering why such low % of your patients you never hear from again after presenting treatment. This is also geographical/racial, hate to say it. Indian doctor in primarily white town, White doctor in black town, etc.)

For instance, many of you who are pre-dent. If we met in person right now, there is a great chance that after a conversation I would think. Holy smokes, this person is stressed to the max, hope they find what it is they're looking for. A large percent of your dental class will be this way, and unfortunately very few will learn how to change that image to a more favorable one. Patients will smell it, and their practice will perform accordingly. Honestly, the happy go lucky people who say "ah, **** happens" after someone rams in to their parked car are the ones who will likely succeed in this field the most. The success mentality is what I keep touching on here.

Living on $20k a year? Sure, after you spend $50k+ per year paying debt, life insurance, health insurance(for family?++), child care? can crush you, disability insurance, rent, electricity bill, water bill, gas bill, your car note, groceries, gas, car insurance, malpractice, dental license, DEA license, Required CE, Cell phone bill, phone+cable bill, netflix, CPA tax returns, gym membership, doctor visits until deductible is met, christmas gifts to friends/family, any money spent towards making your significant other feel like you are actually human beings and they should appreciate being with you(date night? Xmas/bday Gift?), etc. Meanwhile you're missing out on IRA+401k+HSA contributions that can be a significant tax break, and also grow tax free/deferred from an early age in your life for massive compound interest over your lifetime.

Basically, everyone says "oh no problem, ill be a dentist, i'll just live in 20k a year upon graduation and pay debt down ez." Yea, no you won't. You absolutely will not.

How did you "train yourself to perform near OMS levels of surgery?"
And how "near" are we talking here?

 

[ncide]

How did you "train yourself to perform near OMS levels of surgery?"
And how "near" are we talking here?

Most likely learned how to extract thirds and place implants well. No way he learned how to perform a lefort 1 in a weekend course.

 

[cacajuate]

10 year dentist here, completely agree with original post here.
Sure, I've done well....Many don't. I've spent the time and money to basically train myself to perform near OMS levels of surgery....I've gone through massive ups and downs that would break a lot of people who don't truly enjoy dentistry.
You will work your first few years making scraps, unless you completely throw ethics/morals to the side and basically commit fraud on an hourly basis.
You must have a super personality and people skills to do extremely well in this business. (Everyone thinks they have this. Surprise, surprise very few actually do! all a mix of the right personality, body language, social skills. Patients can sniff you out immediately. If you are not a complete rockstar at all of these things, and earning a "friend" and "trust" level with all people...yea you're going to be wondering why such low % of your patients you never hear from again after presenting treatment. This is also geographical/racial, hate to say it. Indian doctor in primarily white town, White doctor in black town, etc.)

For instance, many of you who are pre-dent. If we met in person right now, there is a great chance that after a conversation I would think. Holy smokes, this person is stressed to the max, hope they find what it is they're looking for. A large percent of your dental class will be this way, and unfortunately very few will learn how to change that image to a more favorable one. Patients will smell it, and their practice will perform accordingly. Honestly, the happy go lucky people who say "ah, **** happens" after someone rams in to their parked car are the ones who will likely succeed in this field the most. The success mentality is what I keep touching on here.

Living on $20k a year? Sure, after you spend $50k+ per year paying debt, life insurance, health insurance(for family?++), child care? can crush you, disability insurance, rent, electricity bill, water bill, gas bill, your car note, groceries, gas, car insurance, malpractice, dental license, DEA license, Required CE, Cell phone bill, phone+cable bill, netflix, CPA tax returns, gym membership, doctor visits until deductible is met, christmas gifts to friends/family, any money spent towards making your significant other feel like you are actually human beings and they should appreciate being with you(date night? Xmas/bday Gift?), etc. Meanwhile you're missing out on IRA+401k+HSA contributions that can be a significant tax break, and also grow tax free/deferred from an early age in your life for massive compound interest over your lifetime.

Basically, everyone says "oh no problem, ill be a dentist, i'll just live in 20k a year upon graduation and pay debt down ez." Yea, no you won't. You absolutely will not.

Suprise, surprise dentistry is just like every other job in the world.

 

[computertime]

Most likely learned how to extract thirds and place implants well. No way he learned how to perform a lefort 1 in a weekend course.

Exactly this.

 

[computertime]

"(This is also geographical/racial, hate to say it. Indian doctor in primarily white town, White doctor in black town, etc.)"



I interpreted this statement differently - what came to my mind when I read this was that you need to be able to connect with and understand the culture, customs, values, personality of the community you're going to work in. So depending on where you grew up and the cultures you been exposed to, it might be harder for you adapt - i.e. Indian/black doctor in a white neighborhood or a white doctor in an Indian/black neighborhood. And this goes beyond race - someone who grew up in Manhattan and went to private schools might have a hard time connecting with people in a coal town with miners who never went to college, and the opposite it true. People tend to subconsciously like individuals who look, talk, and act like them and they use clothing, language, race etc. as a way to make those judgments. Once you've proven you can connect with people of a different demographic word will get around and you'll do well, but you've got to be very self aware/critical to adapt.

Basically, be a adaptable to new cultures or go somewhere you know for a better chance of success.

This is the best interpretation I've ever seen. Exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks!!!!!!

 

[wengerout]

10 year dentist here, completely agree with original post here.
Sure, I've done well....Many don't. I've spent the time and money to basically train myself to perform near OMS levels of surgery....I've gone through massive ups and downs that would break a lot of people who don't truly enjoy dentistry.
You will work your first few years making scraps, unless you completely throw ethics/morals to the side and basically commit fraud on an hourly basis.
You must have a super personality and people skills to do extremely well in this business. (Everyone thinks they have this. Surprise, surprise very few actually do! all a mix of the right personality, body language, social skills. Patients can sniff you out immediately. If you are not a complete rockstar at all of these things, and earning a "friend" and "trust" level with all people...yea you're going to be wondering why such low % of your patients you never hear from again after presenting treatment. This is also geographical/racial, hate to say it. Indian doctor in primarily white town, White doctor in black town, etc.)

For instance, many of you who are pre-dent. If we met in person right now, there is a great chance that after a conversation I would think. Holy smokes, this person is stressed to the max, hope they find what it is they're looking for. A large percent of your dental class will be this way, and unfortunately very few will learn how to change that image to a more favorable one. Patients will smell it, and their practice will perform accordingly. Honestly, the happy go lucky people who say "ah, **** happens" after someone rams in to their parked car are the ones who will likely succeed in this field the most. The success mentality is what I keep touching on here.

Living on $20k a year? Sure, after you spend $50k+ per year paying debt, life insurance, health insurance(for family?++), child care? can crush you, disability insurance, rent, electricity bill, water bill, gas bill, your car note, groceries, gas, car insurance, malpractice, dental license, DEA license, Required CE, Cell phone bill, phone+cable bill, netflix, CPA tax returns, gym membership, doctor visits until deductible is met, christmas gifts to friends/family, any money spent towards making your significant other feel like you are actually human beings and they should appreciate being with you(date night? Xmas/bday Gift?), etc. Meanwhile you're missing out on IRA+401k+HSA contributions that can be a significant tax break, and also grow tax free/deferred from an early age in your life for massive compound interest over your lifetime.

Basically, everyone says "oh no problem, ill be a dentist, i'll just live in 20k a year upon graduation and pay debt down ez." Yea, no you won't. You absolutely will not.

How big of an issue is the race thing and where are the best places to avoid it being an issue.

 

[blablabla1]

How big of an issue is the race thing and where are the best places to avoid it being an issue.

That'll take some research but ideally you'd want to work in more diverse areas (assuming it actually is as big of an issue as the other poster says. I kinda doubt it's THAT big of an issue, but maybe that's just me having more faith in people than I should). Basically you won't find much diversity in the Midwest and the south apart from city centers and metropolitan areas.

 

[wengerout]

That'll take some research but ideally you'd want to work in more diverse areas (assuming it actually is as big of an issue as the other poster says. I kinda doubt it's THAT big of an issue, but maybe that's just me having more faith in people than I should). Basically you won't find much diversity in the Midwest and the south apart from city centers and metropolitan areas.

I live in the south now and shadowed a black dentist and he does well, but he works in metro atlanta which is pretty saturated. I want to avoid saturation best I can but don't want to move somewhere where race will be a big issue.


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[321931]

How big of an issue is the race thing and where are the best places to avoid it being an issue.

This is a good question.

In some of my study clubs, I met dentists that were of different ethnicity and I asked about buying practices etc. They all told me to go to midwest and make money, and to avoid the saturation of dentists in the city. I told them they should go themselves, but they had different reasons as to why they wouldn't do it:

1) quality of life being the 1% minority in a town of 90% majority
2) treatment acceptance and attracting patients- they wouldn't be able to compete in the less diverse area.

Do I think it affects the office? Yes and No. I think its much easier as a minority to do well in a diverse area. But the bad thing that ends up happening is all the minorities end up congregating in places like Washington, California, Oregon, New York and you end up competing against oversaturation, and bad pay.

For reference I am Bi-Racial, and I work in a sorta redneck town. I've had patients tell the front that they request for me because I'm a "white doc" and the other doc's in the office aren't. I mean whatever, but that's life, but there is a reason why in some parts of the country, people of the same like congregate together.

These are simply my opinions.

 

[FrenchyM.D/D.O]

Wow


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[deleted547631]

It's only saturated if all you care about is money!

GO INTO DENTISTRY! This country needs more dentists! Everyone knows how expensive dental procedures are - having more dentists around will help keep costs down.

All student loans will be forgiven anyways. Just pay the minimum, go on IDR payments, then, poof, all of your loans disappear in 20 / 25 years with taxation of the forgiven portion. Don't let student loans dissuade you! If you love your career and do great work you'll be successful!

 

[LFA20]

It's only saturated if all you care about is money!

GO INTO DENTISTRY! This country needs more dentists! Everyone knows how expensive dental procedures are - having more dentists around will help keep costs down.

All student loans will be forgiven anyways. Just pay the minimum, go on IDR payments, then, poof, all of your loans disappear in 20 / 25 years with taxation of the forgiven portion. Don't let student loans dissuade you! If you love your career and do great work you'll be successful!

you really want to pay student loans for 20-25 years???

 

[HatInTheCat]

If anyone wants to live comfortably, you're going to have bills. Student loans shouldn't be the focus of your sole attention, because there are programs out there that can help with that.

A balanced life is a better life. We can't conquer everything, as there are situations beyond our control that pertain to family, finances, and self-motivated interests. However, let's all try to enjoy the experience and tackle life one day at a time.


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[deleted547631]

you really want to pay student loans for 20-25 years???

No one does but these crazy high loans that a lot of these new dentists are taking out to get their degrees are as high up there as I can imagine. Someone posted that attending a private dental school in Arizona will cost them about $500,000 in loans. More than twice the cost of medical school tuition and attendance. Holy cow! I should have mine paid off 18 months to two years after residency.

Regardless, if someone loves oral health care and wants to make a ton of money then going into dentistry is the way to go. Four day work weeks, no call, making $250K+ per year, being your own boss? No wonder they want to open up a bunch more dental schools!

GO INTO DENTISTRY IF IT'S YOUR PASSION!

Ignore the haters saying dentistry isn't worth it!

The dentists posting here about their experiences are the ones who aren't successful. DON'T LISTEN TO THAT NEGATIVITY!

 

[Cello]

It's only saturated if all you care about is money!

GO INTO DENTISTRY! This country needs more dentists! Everyone knows how expensive dental procedures are - having more dentists around will help keep costs down.

All student loans will be forgiven anyways. Just pay the minimum, go on IDR payments, then, poof, all of your loans disappear in 20 / 25 years with taxation of the forgiven portion. Don't let student loans dissuade you! If you love your career and do great work you'll be successful!

:troll:

No one does but these crazy high loans that a lot of these new dentists are taking out to get their degrees are as high up there as I can imagine. Someone posted that attending a private dental school in Arizona will cost them about $500,000 in loans. More than twice the cost of medical school tuition and attendance. Holy cow! I should have mine paid off 18 months to two years after residency.

Regardless, if someone loves oral health care and wants to make a ton of money then going into dentistry is the way to go. Four day work weeks, no call, making $250K+ per year, being your own boss? No wonder they want to open up a bunch more dental schools!

GO INTO DENTISTRY IF IT'S YOUR PASSION!

Ignore the haters saying dentistry isn't worth it!

The dentists posting here about their experiences are the ones who aren't successful. DON'T LISTEN TO THAT NEGATIVITY!

:troll:

(Maybe you should stick to the medical forums @OutRun)

 

[thesellsword]

I appreciate what many of you have said. Honestly, if dentistry is all you care about, and probably the only thing you enjoy doing all day everyday, go for it!

Personally, I went into it as a job, hoping to make good money i.e. >200-300k. That is highly unlikely given my conversations with faculty and other dentists, very few dentists will make more than 150k even 10-15 years out, just look at the average income listed out there on BLS and the ADA website.

It's a crappy field for someone like me who doesn't like the whole subjectivity of what looks good/doesn't and the extreme level of details. I wanted a good paying job, with a good lifestyle, something you can find easily in medicine as an anesthesiologist or emergency care physician where you work every other day, or as a psychiatrist.

 

[Steins;Gate]

I appreciate what many of you have said. Honestly, if dentistry is all you care about, and probably the only thing you enjoy doing all day everyday, go for it!

Personally, I went into it as a job, hoping to make good money i.e. >200-300k. That is highly unlikely given my conversations with faculty and other dentists, very few dentists will make more than 150k even 10-15 years out, just look at the average income listed out there on BLS and the ADA website.

It's a crappy field for someone like me who doesn't like the whole subjectivity of what looks good/doesn't and the extreme level of details. I wanted a good paying job, with a good lifestyle, something you can find easily in medicine as an anesthesiologist or emergency care physician where you work every other day, or as a psychiatrist.

A couple of things I wanted to address here.

"Just look at the average income listed out there on BLS and the ADA website" sure, we should. In ADA's 2014 iteration of its salary statistics, it wrote this: "$140,000 = median annual net income, general practitioners in private practice, limited to dentists with dental school graduation years 2010-2013". Note a few things here: 1) many of those will still be associates (especially if they did a GPR/AEGD), 2) some may be part-timers, 3) many have not reached an optimal clinical speed/set of skills to produce more. But even then, $140,000.

In fact, these three factors (and some others I will list below) push the average lower than it really is since these part-timers/associates/not established owners will definitely be making less since they are still trying to establish their career.

Some other factors that haven't been address in salary figures are:
1) Corporation aspects. Some owners keep their income in the corporation. You don't report that figure.
2) Not everyone who reports a salary is an established owner.
3) Not working in an area with some level of demand. This will affect salary figures greatly.
4) What is the procedural mix of the practitioner? How much or how little stuff do they keep in house?

Therefore, if you are established, work in an area that has some demand, and do higher producing procedures, you will be making more naturally.

Let's look at the 2014 Dental Economics/Levin Group Annual Research Report. They noted: "Looking at revenues per full-time doctor, there is a drop of 3.8%, from $649,839 to $625,278. Average production for full-time associates was $553,492. Average gross production per hygienist increased 9% compared with last year to $176,582, exemplifying what Dr. Levin refers to as "doing more with what you already have.""

On DentalTown, the average production per solo practice has been quoted to be about 700-800K in the US. If you're established and you can't break 150K, there's something off. If you hire a dental CPA, 800K production is not an issue if you really care about your business (you're willing to work your butt off) and keeping up with procedural mix and you're a decent human being. If you produce 800K, you'll break 250K just fine after you factor in business expenses and corporation reduction in taxes. And many more produce more than 800K and some produce less than 800K. YMMV.

You won't be making "good money" with that attitude. Dentistry will be tough for those who aren't genuinely interested in it. Even if you made a lot of money, and the ones on DT sure do, there is still a lot not to like about the profession (as DTers always complain about).

"I wanted a good paying job, with a good lifestyle, something you can find easily in medicine as an anesthesiologist or emergency care physician where you work every other day, or as a psychiatrist." Psych doesn't really pay that well (180-200K is reasonable). You "work every other day" in emerg because that other day is for you to get some rest or else you'll burn out immediately. It's very taxing and emerg is one of those fields where you need to start doing fewer shifts or doing more admin stuff as you age. Sure anes is great but anes is also E-ROAD. It's not easy to get into and there's encroachment with CRNAs. It's also not everyone's up of tea.

Go into what you are genuinely interested in. Or you'll burn out fast if it's patient-centred.

Cheers

 

[thesellsword]

A couple of things I wanted to address here.

"Just look at the average income listed out there on BLS and the ADA website" sure, we should. In ADA's 2014 iteration of its salary statistics, it wrote this: "$140,000 = median annual net income, general practitioners in private practice, limited to dentists with dental school graduation years 2010-2013". Note a few things here: 1) many of those will still be associates (especially if they did a GPR/AEGD), 2) some may be part-timers, 3) many have not reached an optimal clinical speed/set of skills to produce more. But even then, $140,000.

In fact, these three factors (and some others I will list below) push the average lower than it really is since these part-timers/associates/not established owners will definitely be making less since they are still trying to establish their career.

Some other factors that haven't been address in salary figures are:
1) Corporation aspects. Some owners keep their income in the corporation. You don't report that figure.
2) Not everyone who reports a salary is an established owner.
3) Not working in an area with some level of demand. This will affect salary figures greatly.
4) What is the procedural mix of the practitioner? How much or how little stuff do they keep in house?

Therefore, if you are established, work in an area that has some demand, and do higher producing procedures, you will be making more naturally.

Let's look at the 2014 Dental Economics/Levin Group Annual Research Report. They noted: "Looking at revenues per full-time doctor, there is a drop of 3.8%, from $649,839 to $625,278. Average production for full-time associates was $553,492. Average gross production per hygienist increased 9% compared with last year to $176,582, exemplifying what Dr. Levin refers to as "doing more with what you already have.""

On DentalTown, the average production per solo practice has been quoted to be about 700-800K in the US. If you're established and you can't break 150K, there's something off. If you hire a dental CPA, 800K production is not an issue if you really care about your business (you're willing to work your butt off) and keeping up with procedural mix and you're a decent human being. If you produce 800K, you'll break 250K just fine after you factor in business expenses and corporation reduction in taxes. And many more produce more than 800K and some produce less than 800K. YMMV.

You won't be making "good money" with that attitude. Dentistry will be tough for those who aren't genuinely interested in it. Even if you made a lot of money, and the ones on DT sure do, there is still a lot not to like about the profession (as DTers always complain about).

"I wanted a good paying job, with a good lifestyle, something you can find easily in medicine as an anesthesiologist or emergency care physician where you work every other day, or as a psychiatrist." Psych doesn't really pay that well (180-200K is reasonable). You "work every other day" in emerg because that other day is for you to get some rest or else you'll burn out immediately. It's very taxing and emerg is one of those fields where you need to start doing fewer shifts or doing more admin stuff as you age. Sure anes is great but anes is also E-ROAD. It's not easy to get into and there's encroachment with CRNAs. It's also not everyone's up of tea.

Go into what you are genuinely interested in. Or you'll burn out fast if it's patient-centred.

Cheers

Thank you so much for such a comprehensive reply. I'm sticking with it because I have to, and I do enjoy the patient care. I just don't like the dentistry aspect, and the fact that after so much schooling, I won't make as much money as I personally would like to. It's purely subjective in my case, and this is my opinion so far. Thank you for sharing I appreciate your reply immensely and I hope you're right. Dentistry would be tolerable it i were making around 250-300k without working 70-80 hours, which was my main reason for doing dentistry and not medicine.

 

[Steins;Gate]

Thank you so much for such a comprehensive reply. I'm sticking with it because I have to, and I do enjoy the patient care. I just don't like the dentistry aspect, and the fact that after so much schooling, I won't make as much money as I personally would like to. It's purely subjective in my case, and this is my opinion so far. Thank you for sharing I appreciate your reply immensely and I hope you're right. Dentistry would be tolerable it i were making around 250-300k without working 70-80 hours, which was my main reason for doing dentistry and not medicine.

It's my pleasure. Are you still a student? If you are, before you jump to conclusions that you don't like the dentistry. Many specialists decided to specialize because they liked a particular type of procedure(s). Make sure you check out every option before you say you don't like the field.

It comes down to things like treatment acceptance (which you can be very ethical about and still do well), personality, procedural mix, business acumen, location, etc. It's great to be an owner. It also can suck to be an owner. YMMV.

What I can say about income is that if you really wanted to make 250-300K, it is doable on a 40 hour work week. You could make 150K. You could make 400K. Just too many variables. But I can tell you that the ones who enjoy the work and the patient care will do well.

Instead of just aiming for a particular salary, determine how much you actually need and work from there to figure out an appropriate income. Dentistry is interesting because there's not 1 way to earn a salary. You do your own thing and earn what you can. It's very personalized. Some people opt to work more to make more early and slow down later. Some want to be chill for a long time and choose to work less.

When you graduate, focus on a) learning how to run a profitable business, b) hand speed/skill, c) diversifying your procedural mix to do higher producing procedures. Yes you can make 250-300K and no you do not need to do 70-80hrs/week. It might just take a decade but it's totally doable.

And, there is no pricetag on being an owner. That is priceless when you're established in the field.

Cheers

 

[deleted547631]

I appreciate what many of you have said. Honestly, if dentistry is all you care about, and probably the only thing you enjoy doing all day everyday, go for it!

Personally, I went into it as a job, hoping to make good money i.e. >200-300k. That is highly unlikely given my conversations with faculty and other dentists, very few dentists will make more than 150k even 10-15 years out, just look at the average income listed out there on BLS and the ADA website.

It's a crappy field for someone like me who doesn't like the whole subjectivity of what looks good/doesn't and the extreme level of details. I wanted a good paying job, with a good lifestyle, something you can find easily in medicine as an anesthesiologist or emergency care physician where you work every other day, or as a psychiatrist.

What's stopping you from making the switch to something you'd prefer doing for the rest of your working life, @thesellsword? Too many fall into the sunk cost fallacy and stick with something they know they hate. Make the switch into medicine if that's where you truly belong.

Also, if it wasn't clear above I was being tongue-in-cheek hence the caps lock. Although it clearly represents where dentistry is headed.

(May I still participate in this thread with your permission, Dr. @Cello?)

 

[deleted547631]

"I wanted a good paying job, with a good lifestyle, something you can find easily in medicine as an anesthesiologist or emergency care physician where you work every other day, or as a psychiatrist." Psych doesn't really pay that well (180-200K is reasonable). You "work every other day" in emerg because that other day is for you to get some rest or else you'll burn out immediately. It's very taxing and emerg is one of those fields where you need to start doing fewer shifts or doing more admin stuff as you age. Sure anes is great but anes is also E-ROAD. It's not easy to get into and there's encroachment with CRNAs. It's also not everyone's up of tea.

Go into what you are genuinely interested in. Or you'll burn out fast if it's patient-centred.

Cheers

Excellent post all around, @Steins;Gate, but from my anecdotal experience with Psych attendings and residents they are becoming paid quite well these days. The supply is dismally low for Psychiatrists and the demand for them is stratospheric. I'd like to bring attention to this forum member's (Psychiatrist just out of residency) post from last week:

Excellent thread. I am a bit over a year out of residency and have stuck with locums. I am around 490k a year. That includes two weeks of vacation a year and maybe 4-5 holidays where I choose not to work. However, it is locums, and the difficulty lies in making temporary gigs permanent so you don't have downtime. I optimize taxes as well through my S-corp. I work five 10 hours days, M-F and then two weekends (sometimes 3) a month. I end on Friday at 9pm and have to drive four hours to my weekend job. I used to fly 3/4 weekends. Given when I have experienced so far, I cannot see myself taking a w-2 job. I have little use for their benefits and would rather optimize it on my own. I have used my income to pay off my large student loan burden, become debt free and fully fund retirement for the last two years.

He's working really hard! The earning potential is there.

I, for one, feel that the ROI on medicine has been on an upswing per MGMA reported data despite the changes brought forth by ACA.