Do NOT go into Dentistry - Trust me it is SATURATED

[GypsyHummus]

Hey,

Thank you for your opinion on the subject of dentistry and for the truth on the matter. I am Applying to Med school thinking about switching to Dental because of the lifestyle that comes with the job- less schooling, being your own boss, etc.

My question to you is why you think dentistry is going to end up like pharmacy, or worse, optometry, when D schools have been able to stem the rapid expansion of schools. For some reason, every other school is opening up like 5 new schools a year. D school doesn't seem to be following this trend, so I wonder why you feel that it is a race to the bottom. Even without dentists retiring, I find it difficult that it wouldn't be easy to snag a practice and make good money.

On the subject of debt and money, I agree with you that the cost of education seems almost unreasonable, especially at private institutions. so lets say for the sake of argument at the end of 4 years you have 500K in debt at 8% interest. You make what the average dentist makes, round 140K. take home is around 100K. Live off of 20K a year, pay 80 to the debt. Assuming no life altering thing happening, you can easily pay it off in 8 years. Continue that lifestyle, and the rest is all cash coming home. Assuming that the person is single that is. coming out at 26, you can be debt free by age 34. Not terrible, not great either I must admit.

So - I'd like to begin by first saying that this is a throwaway, because I don't really feel like having any of you discover who I am - (never underestimate the power of the internet. Dentistry is a very “front” facing profession. Your mug will be plastered on the website of whatever office you decide to work at.) Because of this, I will try to keep personal details to a min.

What has compelled me to go back to SDN, and write what appears to be a memoir? I’m fed up with the field, and everything it stands for. My brother is EM physician (just finished his residency a few years back), and I am pretty sure I'm able to see both sides.

So, young‘uns - 1st - SDN has a reputation for being all doom and gloom. A “sky is falling mentality” I guess. Can’t say I chuckled when I first started going through threads several years back during dental school. But now as a graduate, and practicing dentist… its funny how things work out. The field is saturated, and due to market forces we, as dentists can’t really control, it is definitely headed in a downwards trajectory. Don’t say I didn’t warn you guys.

I graduated roughly 5 years ago. I came out with several hundred thousand dollars of debt. I didn’t think too much about paying them off - I figured I’d just start associating and the rest would take care of itself.

I’m making good progress on it - but my issues with dentistry lie not so much with the debt (although thats a huge part - especially nowadays. Other people have covered this - so I’m not going to delve into it too much), but other issues with the field most people wouldn’t think about if they were applying today.

1) SATURATION. I kid you not - Dentistry is headed towards a zero sum race to the bottom.
There really are too many dentists. Straight up - the field is headed the way of pharmacy. Dental chains are buying out every retiring dentist, and squeezing out completion. On the surface - you’re like “oh - well the ADA says that we’re facing a shortage of dentists! They NEED me!” No. Stop. If you actually think this, go back and apply to medical school, where residency spots are tied to funding, and can’t be multiplied 2x at a whim. I have friends who graduated in my class who are still stuck with 90k associating gigs.​

I firmly believe that the issue is mainly because 1) Too many grads with too many loans are flooding the marketplace, and more importantly - 2) Older dentists ARE NOT RETIRING. This is HUGE. If you go back to 2001-2002, people were saying that dentistry would be facing a shortage, that there wouldn’t be enough docs to make sure little Timmy’s tooth decay wouldn’t go unchecked.​

The reason why dentistry has been so hot recently? Well, articles like this: http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/slideshows/the-25-best-jobs-of-2015/2 and others in Business Insider, CNN, etc. I feel, are pushing a lot of people into the field who ordinarily wouldn’t have bothered looking at it.​

The numbers of dentists needed today per 100,000 people are less than what was needed two decades ago. Dentists today are more efficient, have broader training, and are capable of doing more (no more referring everything out - new docs are now doing extractions, Invisalign, you name it). But older docs aren’t retiring. What happens is a “semi-retirement” where the doc comes in 1 day a week, still owns the office, etc, and the poor associate is only making ~90k a year (60k after taxes, and 30k after repaying loans. I’m not kidding). This all resulted in a huge increase in the # of dentists, especially after the financial crisis. According to a recent ADA survey - 1/3 of dentists AREN’T busy enough! This is huge! In addition, the number of dentists has continued to go up EACH year, after the ADA said there was a shortage back in ~2005

2) The debt isn’t quite worth it anymore. I graduated 5 years back, and I thought my debt was a lot. For everyone intending to go 300-500k in debt, you realize thats 30k+ in interest every year? Paying pack 4k a month out of every paycheck? For what its worth - you’re making ~90k when you start. The way the field is now, a GPR is basically essential. You realize you’re in school ONLY 2 years less than an EM physician? And they get paid ~330k when they start working. 2 extra years, and you quadruple your salary? I firmly believe anyone who is in dental school could easily have gone to med school, even if you need to do a postbacc - it’s within range. Strictly financially, Medicine has FAR more to offer.

3) You feel like a used car salesman with all the competition.

If you’re an introverted person, or are not comfortable “coaxing” people to accept procedures they might not otherwise, drop out of the field right now. This isn’t even corporate - its you trying to keep your office afloat/trying to pay your student loans. Yes, that patient 50/50 could have a crown or no, but if YOU don’t do it, another dentist down the street IS going to do it, and pocket the $2000 themselves.

Back in the day (think 80’s) if a tooth didn’t hurt/bug the patient, the dentist left it alone. Nowadays, with every one and their mom is trying to sell each patient a full mouth reconstruction (as well as offering massages and other bull**** remedies) is it no wonder people don’t take dentists seriously? No joke, the office down the street from me is a “Dental Spa” that offers a full range a skin rejuvenations, massages, and other girly/try-hard stuff I’ll have to ask my wife about because I don’t know what any of it is

4) Backbreaking work. No joke it’s only been five years, and my lower back is killing me very day. My hands hurt, and my shoulders feel like they're made of stone. Add in the fact I'm looking at mouths all day - the novelty has worn off.

5) The job itself leaves much to be desired. You clean/fix teeth. Thats it. You don’t do complex jaw surgeries (no, Mr. Oral Surgeon - you don’t. You pull 3rds all day in private practice pretending you're a doctor) and you definitely don’t do anything reconstructive asides from teeth. You’re a glorified tooth mechanic. Now don’t get me wrong - I love what I do - but there are other things that now, after several years of practice, I feel like I would also derive pleasure from doing.

6) Insurance companies will f****** gut you and leave you to die on the street. Reimbursements are going down . You might ask — “why does this affect me? I’m going to run a FFS practice!” It affects you because FFS is only viable in certain areas - Anywhere from 0% (lol you wish) to 80% of your payer mix will be PPO. Delta Dental is the bane of my existence and basically a monopoly in several places - they provide dental insurance coverage for 1/3 of the adults in the United States. This monopoly is FEDERALLY protected - meaning there’s no competition for dental benefits/price. The McCarran–Ferguson Act (http://healthcarereform.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=001890) basically allows this. I can’t drop them because 40% of my patients have their insurance, and last year when they decided to cut fees in my area by 5%, I got screwed to the tune of 70-80k in lost income. This leads me to my next point…

7) Dentistry is influenced by market trends/the squeezing of the middle class. The middle class is getting squeezed. Now this definitely affects you, because 20+ years ago, many, many more jobs were unionized, more people had dental insurance, and more people took the time to see the dentist. Average family income (adjusted for inflation) hasn’t risen in a decade! Things like raising the minimum wage, for example, will actually HELP dentists because it makes the average person more likely to afford/see a dentist. But the way it is now, the average family is poorer than they were 10 years ago, and this translates to less than 50% of us adults actually having dental insurance and an even smaller amount using it.

8) Other minor things - such as running an office, insurance write-offs, dealing with people in general, and lack of respect among EVERYONE (the latter being a pretty small issue, as least for me - but I know how neurotic everyone is on SDN, so this might be something to keep in mind)​

Now - all this might seems sort of convoluted. I’m typing this right now after a particularly frustering day at my office. I can see how this profession might have worked a decade or two ago. But I swear to god - I’m not sure if the next 10 years are going to be very much fun for anyone. I have zero bargaining power with insurance companies. Incomes have stagnated - and as a new dentist, you can expect maybe 90k-120k or so - and you’ll be stuck at that level for 2-5+ years. The real kicker is the saturation though. All the rest, most people can deal with. But when 4+ offices go bankrupt in my suburb every year - I’m starting to realize that the field is cracking. Incomes are slowly decreasing - I expect within 5 years or so average starting salary for an associate will be in the 80-100k range (it already is in a lot of places)



For all the people who think I’m some sort of SDN troll - heres a QA section for ya:

Q. You sound mad - well, I’ll have you know- I’m going to be a super dentist! I’ll be the one to buck trends and pay off my 400k loans in 5 years! Just watch me!

A. Ok, Jimmy, good luck. With 400k in loans, no bank is going to loan you money to even purchase a practice. You’ll be making 90k for the next 7 years. You can moonlight as a doctor while in residency and make more than that



Q. Why did you even go into Dentistry if you hate it?

A. I still like dentistry - it’s just that the field is dying, or at least, headed towards a huge “market correction” and I can see it clearly from my vantage point. I feel like a pharmacist circa 2000 making 120k, and life was good. Fast forward 10 years…


Q. Where are you pulling that figure from - 90k as a starting salary of a dentist? Every survey I see says 140k.

A. Those salary surveys are compounded over years and years - meaning they still have data from 2005 when associates used to be paid $500+ a day and 35%+ of production. That doesn’t exist anymore. Today, you can expect to make 90k to 120k if you want to live anywhere within 100 miles of a major city. And if you say that you won’t - you’re lying. This is EVERYONE. Don’t lie to yourself and say you want to live in an oilfield in North Dakota. You guys are what - 19-20 years old in the forum? Do you guys understand that at 27/28/29, when you graduate/finish your residency, you’ll be thinking of getting married. Getting settled down, having a wife and kids - and trust me, your wife won’t want to wake up and chase moose off your property.


Q. Where do you see dentistry in 10 years?

A. At the same level as pharmacists, job opportunity wise. Salaries will continue to drop, and the dentist/population ratio will skyrocket leading to declining income (Hell, my income dropped ~30k as an owner the past two years.) If there isn’t a dentist in every Walmart by then, well color me surprised (KIDDING - most will probably be in strip malls, to be honest). Loans will render most graduates unable to purchase practices because they’ll be owned by chains, and most dentists will just be employees making peanuts for their education (look at pharmacy - the other field that doesn't have mandatory residencies/where it's easy to open up a school)


Q. You mentioned your brother was an EM physician. Is how does he view things in the healthcare field right now?

A. First and foremost, I should state my brother doesn't give a f*** about dentists. As in - while Dentists (even the predents in this forum) have this insecurity complex about not being "real doctors", the number of times "dentist" crosses my brothers mind is laughably small. When was the last time you thought about an optometrist? When you needed new glasses 3 years back, otherwise you forget they exist. Thats how 90% of people view dentists

Now for the meat. My brother makes (slightly adjusted) around 320k gross income right now. His first contract out of fellowship was for around 275k. I make around 160k as an owner. 2 years back, I was at 190k, but Delta Dental decided to cut my reimbursement, and now I'm working twice as hard to woo patients to get their teeth taken care of so they don't show up in front of my brother in the ER because of an abscess. I don't give massages or have a spa at my practice, so another few points docked for me.

Physicians like to moan and groan about how the government is out to get them, their pay will be docked, etc. But the fact is - it's not going to happen - at least anytime. The AMA is extremely powerful, and there are well over 1 million physicians in the United States. Supply and Demand doesn't even play a role, because the number of residency spots is governed by government funding levels (which hasn't risen in a decade), and thanks to political gridlock, probably wont rise for the 20 years.

Dentists - all you need is a new school, and suddenly over a 10 year period, you have 1500 new dentists in one geographical area.... all trying to sell you a massage along with your prophy...



My final word to you all? Do anything else. Trust me. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Signed,

-A Current Dentist

PS. I'm posting this here because I realize many of you are too young and don't/are unable to frequent DentalTown. I'm simply keeping guys in the loop. I would have appreciated it if someone did for me back in the day when I was applying - I'm just passing it forward.

---

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[oralcare123]

Anecdotes don't prove that OP is wrong. What we do know is that the average general dentist is making in the low to mid 100's and that most dental students graduate with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. That $300-400k debt comes with a vicious interest that very well may metastasize into a million dollars. OP brings a lot of legit points to the table that shouldn't be ignored. Adjusting to difficult times isn't as simple as saying that will we adjust.

Anecdotes? OP tells a lot of BS and you believe in it

 

[allantois]

Live off of 20K a year, pay 80 to the debt. Assuming no life altering thing happening, you can easily pay it off in 8 years. Continue that lifestyle, and the rest is all cash coming home. Assuming that the person is single that is. coming out at 26, you can be debt free by age 34. Not terrible, not great either I must admit.

 

[catoshiro]

Possible if you have a partner in all of this who is willing to pay more of the living expenses while you're working off your debt. Won't be living off of a total 20k but maybe what you can contribute. Just playing devil's advocate.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Have you ever lived off of 20K a year? it is doable in the midwest/less populated southern states.

 

[Weakfart]

Have you ever lived off of 20K a year? it is doable in the midwest/less populated southern states.

Why would you do that?? Can't you ask your parents to borrow a small million or so?

 

[schmoob]

Have you ever lived off of 20K a year? it is doable in the midwest/less populated southern states.

In theory it's a good plan, but it's not realistic. $20k a year is incredibly tight. Have you factored in any investments such as a home, or retirement contributions?

 

[Incis0r]

Hey,



On the subject of debt and money, I agree with you that the cost of education seems almost unreasonable, especially at private institutions. so lets say for the sake of argument at the end of 4 years you have 500K in debt at 8% interest. You make what the average dentist makes, round 140K. take home is around 100K. Live off of 20K a year, pay 80 to the debt. Assuming no life altering thing happening, you can easily pay it off in 8 years. Continue that lifestyle, and the rest is all cash coming home. Assuming that the person is single that is. coming out at 26, you can be debt free by age 34. Not terrible, not great either I must admit.

True, but that's 8 years that you haven't contributed to investment accounts for growth. At a 9% annual return, you could have doubled your initial investment in that time.

Compound interest and the Rule of 72 are only friends to those who start early.

 

[bjpenn]

Hey,

Live off of 20K a year, pay 80 to the debt. Assuming no life altering thing happening, you can easily pay it off in 8 years. Continue that lifestyle, and the rest is all cash coming home. Assuming that the person is single that is. coming out at 26, you can be debt free by age 34. Not terrible, not great either I must admit.

Uh. That is super terrible. It's possible to do anything. But what pct of dentists would live on 20k a year? NO ONE!! I personally would never in a million years be able to do that. I totally get all you pre-dents with such fire and optimism. You need it to get through application process and dental school. What many don't realize is the real work actually starts right after graduation.

I see tons of my peers currently in situations that I wouldn't want to be in. So many of my friends said they would do rural after graduation until they paid off their loans. Most couldn't even last a year. Many couldn't hold off on that fancy car or watch. They want to get married, buy a house, and travel..all things that "working people do". That feeling of "helping people" isn't enough anymore. You quickly feel like you deserve a reward for your hard work.


As time goes on, dentistry loses its glamour, and becomes a job just like anything else, and then you decide you want to finally live life! You know this talk of unwavering discipline is not sustainable right?? Guess what though? You still have 300k+ in loans, no office, and have bounced around several associate jobs. How cool is that?

Don't throw a blind eye to the reality that we are presenting to you guys. We've been in your shoes and there aren't too many different outcomes. Wanna do dentistry and struggle and get burned out? Goto an expensive school. Wanna do dentistry and have a quality life? Goto a cheap school.

**Disregard this whole post if you're super rich already.

 

[321931]

I decided to rethink my position on dentistry in general. When it comes down to it, it may not be the most lucrative profession anymore due to saturation and some debt load; however, it is still a strong field if you do put hard work into it. It is a profession that can offer you 4 day work weeks, raising a family, and being your own boss. You probably won't make as much as your physician counterpart or have the respect of that Doctor title; however, in the end, it doesn't matter. Your personal happiness in doing what you love day in and day out coupled with family life is what matters the most. Most physicians lack that family life, or time off. Dentists have that luxury.

In general though, it isn't that bad. There are many degrees out there that end up not amounting to much. I'm sure you have friends and colleagues that have taken 100-200k loans on private institutions for undergrad and are currently working at starbucks, interning, and trying to land a job that pays the bills. Dentistry at least guarantees a stable life, and if you plan out financially correctly...it will pay for itself and you will have a long career. Good luck guys! I say go for it!

These are simply my opinions.

 

[Incis0r]

Hello Everyone,

I used to frequent this forum for quite a while before Dental School, and now being a Dentist for the past year has opened up my eyes towards the reality of dentistry. I sometimes try to check back in from time to time and I see a lot of doom and gloom posts regarding Dentistry on the front page, and I will try to answer some questions regarding the doom and gloom as a recent new graduate. I will not answer questions about if it makes you happy or if it is the right career for you. I will answer it basically on finances. Kiss rule! Keep it simple!

Is Dentistry Worth It $$$?

Depends on you debt level. I graduated with 180,000 in debt, but I am now at 80,000. I tried working in the saturated areas; however, the pay is to little and I had to move to tackle my debt load. Those that graduated with 300,000-400,000 is NOT worth it. Realistically as a new grad your income will be 80,000-130,000 a year.

If you do the math, that is about 10,000 a month, 4000 goes to taxes, 1000-2000 goes to rent, so you are at 4,000 left over. If you have a 400k loan at 7.0% interest with the 25 year plan thats 3000 a month, with total interest being at 450k...so thats 850k total. 10 year plan calls for 4,500 a month. You can't afford that. If you have to graduate with 300-400k, I sincerely urge you to rethink your career. I have friends at this amount of debt and they have no idea what to do. They make 80-130k, and their student debts prevent them from thinking about housing, or even a practice. Yes your income will increase but only to an extent. You have to look at the median income, and the median income for a practice owner is about 150-160. Do not think you will go into dentistry and make 200k+ that is the top% of dentists.

You want to be a practice owner? Thats another 200-400,000 loan. You really want to take on more debt to have a minimal increase in cash flow? Let's say you have 400k loans, with practice loan 250k, with house loan of 500k, thats 1 million in debt...Is that worth it? Physicians have a higher return on income for their job...dentists don't. You still won't make enough to tackle your loans, housing mortgage, saving for retirement, and your kids future college. You will be in dental serfdom either waiting for your parents to die to take their inheritance to pay it off, or waiting to hit the Powerball.

When is dentistry worth it? When your debt level is low enough to handle payments and live life without debt affecting your life. That is the golden rule for any career choice. I think 100-200k is reasonable for dentistry. Trust me, making 80-150k isn't worth it when you have that much 300-400k loans, especially when you have to factor in house loan, practice loan, and raising a family. Simple is that. I can't make it simpler then this.

What do you say to an art major that paid 80k for their art degree? Wow you should of thought of that career before taking that loan. What do you say to a dentist that took 400k for that degree? Same thing. Unfortunately, I think alot of dental students get lost in the allure of being a dentist and making bank. Trust me, you don't make bank, and taking 400k is similar to that art student that took 80k for their degree.

Thank you for sharing your perspective!

If you were facing 400K loans today and decided not to go to dental school, what professions would you consider as alternatives?

 

[ajj70]

Have you ever lived off of 20K a year? it is doable in the midwest/less populated southern states.

20K take home is totally doable in many parts of the country--sure you won't be driving the BMW or buying the McMansion, but you can buy a reasonable house, have a reasonable car, and get out of debt in 1000's of places in the US.

 

[dentalcpa90]

Hello Everyone,

I used to frequent this forum for quite a while before Dental School, and now being a Dentist for the past year has opened up my eyes towards the reality of dentistry. I sometimes try to check back in from time to time and I see a lot of doom and gloom posts regarding Dentistry on the front page, and I will try to answer some questions regarding the doom and gloom as a recent new graduate. I will not answer questions about if it makes you happy or if it is the right career for you. I will answer it basically on finances. Kiss rule! Keep it simple!

Is Dentistry Worth It $$$?

Depends on you debt level. I graduated with 180,000 in debt, but I am now at 80,000. I tried working in the saturated areas; however, the pay is to little and I had to move to tackle my debt load. Those that graduated with 300,000-400,000 is NOT worth it. Realistically as a new grad your income will be 80,000-130,000 a year.

Thanks for taking the time to give your prospective on dentistry.

I have a couple of questions:

1.) What saturated areas did try working in?
2.) How much was the pay increase for moving?
3.) How rural is rural? Is it bearable long-term?

 

[ajj70]

Thanks for taking the time to give your prospective on dentistry.

I have a couple of questions:

1.) What saturated areas did try working in?
2.) How much was the pay increase for moving?
3.) How rural is rural? Is it bearable long-term?

Define bearable....seriously--by the time you get married, kids come along, etc. living in a smaller town is wonderful. Now, if you need to hit the hottest bar every night hooking up with whomever each night, nope, you won't find that in a small town....seriously????

 

[bjpenn]

If you guys read closely all of us dentists are basically saying the same thing....

 

[Incis0r]

If you guys read closely all of us dentists are basically saying the same thing....

I'm just going to paraphrase all the incoming responses for you into one response:

"You're just not a good enough dentist. You don't know how to market. You can't produce enough. You live in the middle of NYC and are in saturated-ville. My neighborhood dentist works 3 days a week and makes 600K/yr- you clearly don't know what you're doing. I'll be the 1 in 1,000,000 to make 500K my first year out as a general dentist. I'll specialize right out of school don't worry. I'll make 140K a year as a dentist, that'll pay off a 420K loan in 3 years."

/sarcasm

 

[schmoob]

20K take home is totally doable in many parts of the country--sure you won't be driving the BMW or buying the McMansion, but you can buy a reasonable house, have a reasonable car, and get out of debt in 1000's of places in the US.

How will you buy a house when you only have $20k a year to spend? You'll spend at least a third of that on a down payment. What about having money for home repairs, vehicle repairs, furniture, retirement planning...
$20k a year as a student is doable. Not so much when you transition to the next stage of life.
Has anyone factored kids into this?

 

[schmoob]

If you guys read closely all of us dentists are basically saying the same thing....

I interpreted your advice as do what you can to minimize school debt so you're not strangled by it. Solid advice.
The OP is saying run as fast as you can from dentistry because it's miserable, and go become a "real" doctor.

 

[bjpenn]

I interpreted your advice as do what you can to minimize school debt so you're not strangled by it. Solid advice.
The OP is saying run as fast as you can from dentistry because it's miserable, and go become a "real" doctor.

The OP is talking about problems we face on a daily basis in dentistry and they are REAL AND TRUE. I could talk about those problems too, but they don't apply to you yet, so I choose to focus on getting you to see the IMMENSE value of going to a cheaper school. That's pretty much the only/most useful thing you can do right now.

 

[ajj70]

How will you buy a house when you only have $20k a year to spend? You'll spend at least a third of that on a down payment. What about having money for home repairs, vehicle repairs, furniture, retirement planning...
$20k a year as a student is doable. Not so much when you transition to the next stage of life.
Has anyone factored kids into this?

Huh????

FHA home loans, low down payments, inexpensive houses, etc., etc. Your house payment would be less than renting and if you take care of things, you can get by on 20K take home. Again, it's certainly not living the highlife, but doing that for 5 years or so to pay off debt, it's worth it. Even if you don't buy a house, rent is cheep in small towns. In my hometown, a nice 2 bedroom apartment is $450 utilities includes.

 

[Incis0r]

It is very possible to live an enjoyable life below 30K in many, many parts of the country.

Here are two examples:
Budget 1: http://livingafi.com/2015/01/05/2014-spending-postmortem/
Budget 2: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-familys-2014-spending/

 

[ajj70]

The OP is talking about problems we face on a daily basis in dentistry and they are REAL AND TRUE. I could talk about those problems too, but they don't apply to you yet, so I choose to focus on getting you to see the IMMENSE value of going to a cheaper school. That's pretty much the only/most useful thing you can do right now.

I'm 1000% on board with going to the cheapest school...if that is an option, but I'd rather go to dental school at a higher cost vs not going at all. Not all of us have the option of multiple in-state schools and out of state publics that give instate after a year only have so many spaces.

 

[321931]

Thanks for taking the time to give your prospective on dentistry.

I have a couple of questions:

1.) What saturated areas did try working in?
2.) How much was the pay increase for moving?
3.) How rural is rural? Is it bearable long-term?

1) Bay Area, LA
2) Pay increase was minimal. Was paid 400-500 in Bay but with housing expense it was 2000 for one bed one bath. I went rural and pay 500 for housing and get paid 600-700.
3) Rural is rural. It is not bearable long-term but I did it because I wanted to control loans. I have a long term fiance of 8 years so we are solid, but I commute every week 4 hours one way to location, work, live there, and go back on weekends...its a struggle. When you graduate, your plans change dramatically. When I was a pre-dent, I was a gunner, trying to get high grades etc etc etc...when you graduate and work the real world, all you want to do is settle, find happiness, have a house, start a family etc. I have many friends my age that have a house or paid off car with a higher net worth due to difference in professions. I'm not saying dentistry is bad, but its not glamorous.

I bought a honda last year because of the commute. I got the car last July 2014. I have 40,000 miles on it already. The life of the new grad!

These are simply my opinions.

 

[bjpenn]

I'm 1000% on board with going to the cheapest school...if that is an option, but I'd rather go to dental school at a higher cost vs not going at all. Not all of us have the option of multiple in-state schools and out of state publics that give instate after a year only have so many spaces.

True- so if that's your mentality, and you're on sdn reading our advice, then don't be surprised for the road ahead. You're locked in and nothing is stopping you. You will need this determination. Wish you lots of success.

Oh another thing- once you guys decide to get married with your 400k loan, don't be surprised when it becomes an issue in your marriage. It's a lot of stress especially when your mate doesn't owe anywhere near that. You will be working and commuting so much, the only people you will see is the staff at your office.

 

[321931]

Thank you for sharing your perspective!

If you were facing 400K loans today and decided not to go to dental school, what professions would you consider as alternatives?

Check Above Post.

 

[321931]

True- so if that's your mentality, and you're on sdn reading our advice, then don't be surprised for the road ahead. You're locked in and nothing is stopping you. You will need this determination. Wish you lots of success.

Oh another thing- once you guys decide to get married with your 400k loan, don't be surprised when it becomes an issue in your marriage. It's a lot of stress especially when your mate doesn't owe anywhere near that. You will be working and commuting so much, the only people you will see is the staff at your office.

Check Above Post

 

[bjpenn]

Stop it with "its possible" talk. You're committing many years to be a dentist. You deserve to be more than fine. Just goto the cheapest school!!!

 

[redmau5]

@bjpenn @Rainee

First of all, thank you both so much for taking the time to raise awareness about legitimate issues we'll likely face as future dentists. Even though it may be difficult to see, I promise your advice doesn't go unappreciated. Quick question: how does specializing play into all of this? I know it's idealistic for pre-dents to even make a decision about pursuing specialties before experiencing some of the clinical options dentistry has to offer, but hypothetically speaking, does specializing leave you in a better position overall? At first glance, it seems justifiable, but that's before factoring in the additional years of interest due to residency...is OMFS one of the only viable options due to the substantial salary bump?

 

[bjpenn]

Location is key no matter what kind of dentist you are.

Specialists have their own challenges, starting from the application process.

You know what leaves you in a better position? GOING TO THE CHEAPEST SCHOOL. Then you can do whatever the hell you want! Wanna be a pedo ortho perio OMFS? go ahead.

Debt slows you down no matter how good you are.

I'm 2 years out, and I really enjoy dentistry. My wife and I combined make as much some owners with multiple offices, and I still don't feel like I can have a kid yet. It's due to a combination of things, but DEBT plays the biggest role, and living in this really rural area. There is no way I'm raising my kid here.

 

[Soleus715]

Stop it with "its possible" talk. You're committing many years to be a dentist. You deserve to be more than fine. Just goto the cheapest school!!!

I agree completely.

Unfortunately, with how high the tuition is for in-state applicants in Illinois, it's pretty much SIU or bust. (if $300k is the cut-off)
All OOS options within reason are more expensive than UIC.

SIU's tuition is $171k with estimated living expenses of ~$62k = $233k
UIC's tuition is $252k with estimated living expenses of ~$100k = $352k
Midwestern's tuition is $345k with estimated living expenses of ~$87k = $432k

I personally made the decision before the application cycle to decline my acceptance to dental school if I do not get accepted in to either Army/Navy HPSP or NHSC.
Having experienced how difficult it is to pay off bills sometimes, the idea of a $4000 monthly payment just for loans is terrifying.
I didn't realize how burdensome it would be to pay student loans for just undergrad alone. The debt is always pressuring you on top of paying off your house, car loan, utilities, etc etc etc.
No one should subject themselves to this kind of debt that could severely degrade quality of life.

That being said, I think dentistry is worth it if we can find a way around this financial obstacle. It definitely won't take care of itself.
It'll get in the way of starting your own practice, which in turn delays paying it off even more. Somewhat like a vicious cycle of unending financial stress.

 

[redmau5]

Unfortunately, with how high the tuition is for in-state applicants in Illinois, it's pretty much SIU or bust. (if $300k is the cut-off)

So grateful to even have a shot at SIU. For what it's worth, I've heard you can live like a king in Alton for $10k/month, and definitely get by with $6-8k. That would put your total debt close to $200k, and for a fantastic clinical education at that.

 

[321931]

@bjpenn @Rainee

First of all, thank you both so much for taking the time to raise awareness about legitimate issues we'll likely face as future dentists. Even though it may be difficult to see, I promise your advice doesn't go unappreciated. Quick question: how does specializing play into all of this? I know it's idealistic for pre-dents to even make a decision about pursuing specialties before experiencing some of the clinical options dentistry has to offer, but hypothetically speaking, does specializing leave you in a better position overall? At first glance, it seems justifiable, but that's before factoring in the additional years of interest due to residency...is OMFS one of the only viable options due to the substantial salary bump?

1) It is extremely tough. Some of the smartest guys I know top 10 material in class didn't get into their choice specialties and had to defer doing residencies and reapplying which means interest ticks on 400k...
2) Alot of GP's are doing more and more speciality procedures to generate income due to lower reimbursements and higher saturation of dentists, thereby taking money away from specialists. I do molar endo, I do surgical EXT, I do open flap debridements. Unfortunately some cases should be referred out but most GP's keep in house which isn't the best for the patient. Money talks.
3) Specialists have their own set of challenges. When they graduate they go into a practice group and have to start somewhere, they get the worse cases, they get the worse patients, until they make enough to buy their own or become partners. So the life of a specialist isn't so clear cut amazing. They also have to go through the "ringer" before making those big bucks, and with lower reimbursements and GP's treading onto their turf to make money, they aren't doing that "great" anymore.

These are simply my opinions.

 

[SnozzBerry]

D3 checking in so I guess it is too late for me. But I guess I could use some words of encouragement after these posts... I am looking at about $250k in loans upon graduation (went to the cheapest school, but its close to the $300k limit everyone has been saying). However, the kicker is that I did not pay through fed loans. I went through an intra-family loan from my (very wealthy) relative, lawyer wrote up a contract, we both signed it etc., the interest is 3% flat and I have to pay them off "as quickly as practically possible" essentially. I go to school at an established midwest public dental school and would prefer to live in an area with a population of >100k but by no means need to be in Chicago or anything like that. What are you thoughts? I prefer the midwest but would be open to other areas of the US potentially, but I really don't want to live in an uber rural area. @bjpenn @Rainee

 

[bjpenn]

Well you gotta clarify what "as quickly as practically possible" means from your relative. If it's faster than normal, you better get ready to go rural for a couple of years.

 

[schmoob]

Huh????

FHA home loans, low down payments, inexpensive houses, etc., etc. Your house payment would be less than renting and if you take care of things, you can get by on 20K take home. Again, it's certainly not living the highlife, but doing that for 5 years or so to pay off debt, it's worth it. Even if you don't buy a house, rent is cheep in small towns. In my hometown, a nice 2 bedroom apartment is $450 utilities includes.

You're willing to be a >30y/o doctor living in a $450 apartment because you had half million in student debt? More power to you brother.
Just keep in mind that if having a family is anywhere in that plan, it is likely that plan will change very quickly. $20K won't take you as far anymore.

Rainee & bjpenn, thank you for sharing your experiences. I appreciate your insight into the profession, both good and bad. One question though, would you do it again?

 

[allantois]

One question though, would you do it again?

*Would you do it today for 300k? 350k? 400k?

 

[Weakfart]

* Would you do it today for 300k? 350k? 400k?

I cannot fathom this forum in like 10 years.. the costs will be disgusting.

 

[SnozzBerry]

Well you gotta clarify what "as quickly as practically possible" means from your relative. If it's faster than normal, you better get ready to go rural for a couple of years.

Honestly that was not specified in the contract to provide me with options, only that I need to repay the full amount + interest. However, "quickly as practically possible" was more of a verbal agreement between us. I am very grateful for his loan, and I know he is essentially losing money on it because the interest is so low. I would like to have it paid back in 5 years of working.

 

[bjpenn]

Ha. Don't make me answer that question. Everyone has their own path to follow.
I got into dentistry bc:
1.wanted to have a tangible skill
2. wanted to have a nice lifestyle
3. wanted to be my own boss.

So far I have 1 and kinda have 2.... 3 i realize is a headache, so now has to be worth it financially.

If I didn't have my wife who's also a dentist, and this good associate gig..then yea I would probably regret doing this. we're making lots of sacrifices now too with my wife being far away from her family and us delaying having a family. mostly bc of 400k.

 

[bjpenn]

Honestly that was not specified in the contract to provide me with options, only that I need to repay the full amount + interest. However, "quickly as practically possible" was more of a verbal agreement between us. I am very grateful for his loan, and I know he is essentially losing money on it because the interest is so low. I would like to have it paid back in 5 years of working.

well you better continue being nice to him. family + money often ends in a crappy situation. guess ure headed to middle of nowhere illinois.

 

[SnozzBerry]

well you better continue being nice to him. family + money often ends in a crappy situation. guess ure headed to middle of nowhere illinois.

Depends on the family, but yes it definitely can. And well I guess we will just have to see. What salary should I be looking for to clear this debt then? Most places that I would be fine living in start their grads at around $125kish... I was thinking with modest increases over the early years I would be able to service my debt in my specified amount of time.

 

[bjpenn]

Depends on the family, but yes it definitely can. And well I guess we will just have to see. What salary should I be looking for to clear this debt then? Most places that I would be fine living in start their grads at around $125kish... I was thinking with modest increases over the early years I would be able to service my debt in my specified amount of time.

as high as you can possibly find. 125 isnt enough. dont forget all the expenses (taxes) you will pay. u need money to live + pay loans+ savings.

 

[torontopharm]

Trust me on this. 100-200k is fair and you will have a top 10% income and live comfortably. 300-400k is soul crushing.

I bought a honda last year because of the commute. I got the car last July 2014. I have 40,000 miles on it already. The life of the new grad!

On average, how long does it it take to go up to 150k+ as a recent grad? I would assume new grads would wanna make at least in the 150k range to knock off the debt quicker.
DPM's/PharmDs start at ~100k as well and their loans hover around 200k...but of course those professions have their own set of problems.
On the bright side, it's much harder for foreign dentists to crack into the US system. Here in Canada, foreign Dentists can directly take the equivalency/board exams and become licensed and this is causing somewhat of an outrage amongst Canadian dental students.

 

[EasTexan]

Everyone keeps saying rural, can you define rural? Are we talking a population of 1000? 5k? 15k?

I think by definition rural is under 50k, but that's just according to wikipedia. If that's the case, sign me up.

 

[Blake1e]

So - I'd like to begin by first saying that this is a throwaway, because I don't really feel like having any of you discover who I am - (never underestimate the power of the internet. Dentistry is a very “front” facing profession. Your mug will be plastered on the website of whatever office you decide to work at.) Because of this, I will try to keep personal details to a min.

What has compelled me to go back to SDN, and write what appears to be a memoir? I’m fed up with the field, and everything it stands for. My brother is EM physician (just finished his residency a few years back), and I am pretty sure I'm able to see both sides.

So, young‘uns - 1st - SDN has a reputation for being all doom and gloom. A “sky is falling mentality” I guess. Can’t say I chuckled when I first started going through threads several years back during dental school. But now as a graduate, and practicing dentist… its funny how things work out. The field is saturated, and due to market forces we, as dentists can’t really control, it is definitely headed in a downwards trajectory. Don’t say I didn’t warn you guys.

I graduated roughly 5 years ago. I came out with several hundred thousand dollars of debt. I didn’t think too much about paying them off - I figured I’d just start associating and the rest would take care of itself.

I’m making good progress on it - but my issues with dentistry lie not so much with the debt (although thats a huge part - especially nowadays. Other people have covered this - so I’m not going to delve into it too much), but other issues with the field most people wouldn’t think about if they were applying today.

1) SATURATION. I kid you not - Dentistry is headed towards a zero sum race to the bottom.
There really are too many dentists. Straight up - the field is headed the way of pharmacy. Dental chains are buying out every retiring dentist, and squeezing out completion. On the surface - you’re like “oh - well the ADA says that we’re facing a shortage of dentists! They NEED me!” No. Stop. If you actually think this, go back and apply to medical school, where residency spots are tied to funding, and can’t be multiplied 2x at a whim. I have friends who graduated in my class who are still stuck with 90k associating gigs.​

I firmly believe that the issue is mainly because 1) Too many grads with too many loans are flooding the marketplace, and more importantly - 2) Older dentists ARE NOT RETIRING. This is HUGE. If you go back to 2001-2002, people were saying that dentistry would be facing a shortage, that there wouldn’t be enough docs to make sure little Timmy’s tooth decay wouldn’t go unchecked.​

The reason why dentistry has been so hot recently? Well, articles like this: http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/slideshows/the-25-best-jobs-of-2015/2 and others in Business Insider, CNN, etc. I feel, are pushing a lot of people into the field who ordinarily wouldn’t have bothered looking at it.​

The numbers of dentists needed today per 100,000 people are less than what was needed two decades ago. Dentists today are more efficient, have broader training, and are capable of doing more (no more referring everything out - new docs are now doing extractions, Invisalign, you name it). But older docs aren’t retiring. What happens is a “semi-retirement” where the doc comes in 1 day a week, still owns the office, etc, and the poor associate is only making ~90k a year (60k after taxes, and 30k after repaying loans. I’m not kidding). This all resulted in a huge increase in the # of dentists, especially after the financial crisis. According to a recent ADA survey - 1/3 of dentists AREN’T busy enough! This is huge! In addition, the number of dentists has continued to go up EACH year, after the ADA said there was a shortage back in ~2005

2) The debt isn’t quite worth it anymore. I graduated 5 years back, and I thought my debt was a lot. For everyone intending to go 300-500k in debt, you realize thats 30k+ in interest every year? Paying pack 4k a month out of every paycheck? For what its worth - you’re making ~90k when you start. The way the field is now, a GPR is basically essential. You realize you’re in school ONLY 2 years less than an EM physician? And they get paid ~330k when they start working. 2 extra years, and you quadruple your salary? I firmly believe anyone who is in dental school could easily have gone to med school, even if you need to do a postbacc - it’s within range. Strictly financially, Medicine has FAR more to offer.

3) You feel like a used car salesman with all the competition.

If you’re an introverted person, or are not comfortable “coaxing” people to accept procedures they might not otherwise, drop out of the field right now. This isn’t even corporate - its you trying to keep your office afloat/trying to pay your student loans. Yes, that patient 50/50 could have a crown or no, but if YOU don’t do it, another dentist down the street IS going to do it, and pocket the $2000 themselves.

Back in the day (think 80’s) if a tooth didn’t hurt/bug the patient, the dentist left it alone. Nowadays, with every one and their mom is trying to sell each patient a full mouth reconstruction (as well as offering massages and other bull**** remedies) is it no wonder people don’t take dentists seriously? No joke, the office down the street from me is a “Dental Spa” that offers a full range a skin rejuvenations, massages, and other girly/try-hard stuff I’ll have to ask my wife about because I don’t know what any of it is

4) Backbreaking work. No joke it’s only been five years, and my lower back is killing me very day. My hands hurt, and my shoulders feel like they're made of stone. Add in the fact I'm looking at mouths all day - the novelty has worn off.

5) The job itself leaves much to be desired. You clean/fix teeth. Thats it. You don’t do complex jaw surgeries (no, Mr. Oral Surgeon - you don’t. You pull 3rds all day in private practice pretending you're a doctor) and you definitely don’t do anything reconstructive asides from teeth. You’re a glorified tooth mechanic. Now don’t get me wrong - I love what I do - but there are other things that now, after several years of practice, I feel like I would also derive pleasure from doing.

6) Insurance companies will f****** gut you and leave you to die on the street. Reimbursements are going down . You might ask — “why does this affect me? I’m going to run a FFS practice!” It affects you because FFS is only viable in certain areas - Anywhere from 0% (lol you wish) to 80% of your payer mix will be PPO. Delta Dental is the bane of my existence and basically a monopoly in several places - they provide dental insurance coverage for 1/3 of the adults in the United States. This monopoly is FEDERALLY protected - meaning there’s no competition for dental benefits/price. The McCarran–Ferguson Act (http://healthcarereform.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=001890) basically allows this. I can’t drop them because 40% of my patients have their insurance, and last year when they decided to cut fees in my area by 5%, I got screwed to the tune of 70-80k in lost income. This leads me to my next point…

7) Dentistry is influenced by market trends/the squeezing of the middle class. The middle class is getting squeezed. Now this definitely affects you, because 20+ years ago, many, many more jobs were unionized, more people had dental insurance, and more people took the time to see the dentist. Average family income (adjusted for inflation) hasn’t risen in a decade! Things like raising the minimum wage, for example, will actually HELP dentists because it makes the average person more likely to afford/see a dentist. But the way it is now, the average family is poorer than they were 10 years ago, and this translates to less than 50% of us adults actually having dental insurance and an even smaller amount using it.

8) Other minor things - such as running an office, insurance write-offs, dealing with people in general, and lack of respect among EVERYONE (the latter being a pretty small issue, as least for me - but I know how neurotic everyone is on SDN, so this might be something to keep in mind)​

Now - all this might seems sort of convoluted. I’m typing this right now after a particularly frustering day at my office. I can see how this profession might have worked a decade or two ago. But I swear to god - I’m not sure if the next 10 years are going to be very much fun for anyone. I have zero bargaining power with insurance companies. Incomes have stagnated - and as a new dentist, you can expect maybe 90k-120k or so - and you’ll be stuck at that level for 2-5+ years. The real kicker is the saturation though. All the rest, most people can deal with. But when 4+ offices go bankrupt in my suburb every year - I’m starting to realize that the field is cracking. Incomes are slowly decreasing - I expect within 5 years or so average starting salary for an associate will be in the 80-100k range (it already is in a lot of places)



For all the people who think I’m some sort of SDN troll - heres a QA section for ya:

Q. You sound mad - well, I’ll have you know- I’m going to be a super dentist! I’ll be the one to buck trends and pay off my 400k loans in 5 years! Just watch me!

A. Ok, Jimmy, good luck. With 400k in loans, no bank is going to loan you money to even purchase a practice. You’ll be making 90k for the next 7 years. You can moonlight as a doctor while in residency and make more than that



Q. Why did you even go into Dentistry if you hate it?

A. I still like dentistry - it’s just that the field is dying, or at least, headed towards a huge “market correction” and I can see it clearly from my vantage point. I feel like a pharmacist circa 2000 making 120k, and life was good. Fast forward 10 years…


Q. Where are you pulling that figure from - 90k as a starting salary of a dentist? Every survey I see says 140k.

A. Those salary surveys are compounded over years and years - meaning they still have data from 2005 when associates used to be paid $500+ a day and 35%+ of production. That doesn’t exist anymore. Today, you can expect to make 90k to 120k if you want to live anywhere within 100 miles of a major city. And if you say that you won’t - you’re lying. This is EVERYONE. Don’t lie to yourself and say you want to live in an oilfield in North Dakota. You guys are what - 19-20 years old in the forum? Do you guys understand that at 27/28/29, when you graduate/finish your residency, you’ll be thinking of getting married. Getting settled down, having a wife and kids - and trust me, your wife won’t want to wake up and chase moose off your property.


Q. Where do you see dentistry in 10 years?

A. At the same level as pharmacists, job opportunity wise. Salaries will continue to drop, and the dentist/population ratio will skyrocket leading to declining income (Hell, my income dropped ~30k as an owner the past two years.) If there isn’t a dentist in every Walmart by then, well color me surprised (KIDDING - most will probably be in strip malls, to be honest). Loans will render most graduates unable to purchase practices because they’ll be owned by chains, and most dentists will just be employees making peanuts for their education (look at pharmacy - the other field that doesn't have mandatory residencies/where it's easy to open up a school)


Q. You mentioned your brother was an EM physician. Is how does he view things in the healthcare field right now?

A. First and foremost, I should state my brother doesn't give a f*** about dentists. As in - while Dentists (even the predents in this forum) have this insecurity complex about not being "real doctors", the number of times "dentist" crosses my brothers mind is laughably small. When was the last time you thought about an optometrist? When you needed new glasses 3 years back, otherwise you forget they exist. Thats how 90% of people view dentists

Now for the meat. My brother makes (slightly adjusted) around 320k gross income right now. His first contract out of fellowship was for around 275k. I make around 160k as an owner. 2 years back, I was at 190k, but Delta Dental decided to cut my reimbursement, and now I'm working twice as hard to woo patients to get their teeth taken care of so they don't show up in front of my brother in the ER because of an abscess. I don't give massages or have a spa at my practice, so another few points docked for me.

Physicians like to moan and groan about how the government is out to get them, their pay will be docked, etc. But the fact is - it's not going to happen - at least anytime. The AMA is extremely powerful, and there are well over 1 million physicians in the United States. Supply and Demand doesn't even play a role, because the number of residency spots is governed by government funding levels (which hasn't risen in a decade), and thanks to political gridlock, probably wont rise for the 20 years.

Dentists - all you need is a new school, and suddenly over a 10 year period, you have 1500 new dentists in one geographical area.... all trying to sell you a massage along with your prophy...



My final word to you all? Do anything else. Trust me. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Signed,

-A Current Dentist

PS. I'm posting this here because I realize many of you are too young and don't/are unable to frequent DentalTown. I'm simply keeping guys in the loop. I would have appreciated it if someone did for me back in the day when I was applying - I'm just passing it forward.

I agree with everything you said. But all these issues are, at least for the most part, circumventable.

Location location location.

Find the right spot (town/city/state) and serve the right types of communities/clientele.

 

[SnozzBerry]

as high as you can possibly find. 125 isnt enough. dont forget all the expenses (taxes) you will pay. u need money to live + pay loans+ savings.

Yeah I took those into consideration, but I guess I will just bank on finding a wife in that time period that can front the living expenses and such... lol. But seriously, I am hoping that my experience in the GPR will provide me with higher production/ more attractive employment options which will get me to the $140-150k more quickly. Practice ownership is also a potential after a couple of years practicing, which should increase my earnings. Or I suppose Alaska is always an option... lol Thanks for the help! SDN, I'll see you in 5 years and report my progress... everybody set a reminder.

 

[Dr. Tiffany]

I would like to comment on this thread. Well....maybe more vent then comment. I'm a dentist who has been out of school for 4 years. There is a lot of talk on here about the financial aspects of why you shouldn't go into dentistry if you have a high debt load. I wanted to add to the "doom and gloom" but from other aspects of dentistry. Here are my thoughts:

Dentistry is hard. Some days I just wish I didn't have to go back. If you are not a so called "people person" then having to deal with people all day long is exhausting. 4/10 patients just suck. They are not very nice people. When you see 10-20 patients a day that adds up quickly. Patients can be rude, condescending, pushy, and have unreal expectations. Some patients just suck the life out of you and your team. They are so high maintenance. Dealing with people goes beyond the patients themselves. You also have to deal with parents and spouses. Which can be even worse sometimes. After that you have to deal with the team. Most of my assistants (I work for a group practice as an associate) are in their young 20s and don't know how to work hard. They lounge around and it drives me nuts. I guess my point here is that if you don't like to deal with people, then dentistry is most certainly not for you.

I'm so tired of injections too. I work in a state where hygiene can't anesthetize. I don't like causing pain to people and I stab them with needles all day long. I'm tired of hearing the phrase "no offense doc, but I hate the dentist!". I'm tired of hearing people say "I just don't like needles".....who the hell does like needles? What kind of statement is that? I'm tired of having patients tell me "they can't lie back in the chair all the way".....um....how the hell do you sleep at night? Oh...you lie down to sleep....then you will be ok for the next half hour laying down in my chair....COME ON (GOB style from arrested development).

My back is killing me. I had this 400 pound African American man in my chair last week. He couldn't lie back in the chair all the way. So I stood up for 35 minutes troughing out some majorly clubed roots on tooth 12. The man was incredibly rude. It hurts all the time. I have 4.5 mag loupes and try my best to exercise good ergonomics;however, my back still hurts. I'm going to be cuasimoto in 10 years.

I'm tired of the smells. Smell of periodontal disease, smell of abscesses, smell of unsanitary patients, smell of burning decay. I actually like the smell of the bond I use. Optibond XTR. Smells good.

I'm so tired of the stupid crap that patients say that I don't even bother educating them anymore. "the baby sucked out all the calcium in my teeth, thats why I have so many cavities", "My teeth were so perfect five years ago, until I let that one dentist do a filling and now he jacked up all my teeth".

I'm tired of the drug seekers. "Um,....ya.....I'm allergic to motrin, hydrocodone....but I can take....whats that drug....oxy......oxy......oxycodone. Ya that is the one I can take. "I'm going to need more then 12 pills....I'm in so much pain!" The act they put on just sends me through the roof.

I'm tired of everyone else in my life thinking that I'm rich. Expecting me to pay for everything. I'm tired of people saying "I just paid for your new boat house"....or "I paid for your kids to go to college".....Um...you paid me for a service and I did it very well.

Real world dentistry is hard. Composites can be very difficult to obtain a A+ result. It takes time and proper equipment and great hands. Its even harder when you have a terrible patient in the chair. Dentures suck to do and so do difficult extractions.

If you take insurance like my practice....the reimbursement rates can be very minimal. To truly make a lot of money as a associate you have to be balling all the time. You have to be very productive. I'm not. I'm not very good at treatment acceptance and don't do highly productive procedures.

For the sake of keeping with the thread, from my own eyes, I do not agree with the OP that the profession is saturated. There are markets that are truly saturated;however, there are more unsaturated areas then there are saturated. Most dentists I know do well. Debt can be managed.

Just know that there is a hell of a lot more negative aspects to dentistry then the high debt load. I wish that I would have known some of these things as a pre-dent. But how can you. Shadowing doesn't really show you everything that you need. Even in school you don't see what it will really be like.

 

[Hyunin1210]

I would like to comment on this thread. Well....maybe more vent then comment. I'm a dentist who has been out of school for 4 years. There is a lot of talk on here about the financial aspects of why you shouldn't go into dentistry if you have a high debt load. I wanted to add to the "doom and gloom" but from other aspects of dentistry. Here are my thoughts:

Dentistry is hard. Some days I just wish I didn't have to go back. If you are not a so called "people person" then having to deal with people all day long is exhausting. 4/10 patients just suck. They are not very nice people. When you see 10-20 patients a day that adds up quickly. Patients can be rude, condescending, pushy, and have unreal expectations. Some patients just suck the life out of you and your team. They are so high maintenance. Dealing with people goes beyond the patients themselves. You also have to deal with parents and spouses. Which can be even worse sometimes. After that you have to deal with the team. Most of my assistants (I work for a group practice as an associate) are in their young 20s and don't know how to work hard. They lounge around and it drives me nuts. I guess my point here is that if you don't like to deal with people, then dentistry is most certainly not for you.

I'm so tired of injections too. I work in a state where hygiene can't anesthetize. I don't like causing pain to people and I stab them with needles all day long. I'm tired of hearing the phrase "no offense doc, but I hate the dentist!". I'm tired of hearing people say "I just don't like needles".....who the hell does like needles? What kind of statement is that? I'm tired of having patients tell me "they can't lie back in the chair all the way".....um....how the hell do you sleep at night? Oh...you lie down to sleep....then you will be ok for the next half hour laying down in my chair....COME ON (GOB style from arrested development).

My back is killing me. I had this 400 pound African American man in my chair last week. He couldn't lie back in the chair all the way. So I stood up for 35 minutes troughing out some majorly clubed roots on tooth 12. The man was incredibly rude. It hurts all the time. I have 4.5 mag loupes and try my best to exercise good ergonomics;however, my back still hurts. I'm going to be cuasimoto in 10 years.

I'm tired of the smells. Smell of periodontal disease, smell of abscesses, smell of unsanitary patients, smell of burning decay. I actually like the smell of the bond I use. Optibond XTR. Smells good.

I'm so tired of the stupid crap that patients say that I don't even bother educating them anymore. "the baby sucked out all the calcium in my teeth, thats why I have so many cavities", "My teeth were so perfect five years ago, until I let that one dentist do a filling and now he jacked up all my teeth".

I'm tired of the drug seekers. "Um,....ya.....I'm allergic to motrin, hydrocodone....but I can take....whats that drug....oxy......oxy......oxycodone. Ya that is the one I can take. "I'm going to need more then 12 pills....I'm in so much pain!" The act they put on just sends me through the roof.

I'm tired of everyone else in my life thinking that I'm rich. Expecting me to pay for everything. I'm tired of people saying "I just paid for your new boat house"....or "I paid for your kids to go to college".....Um...you paid me for a service and I did it very well.

Real world dentistry is hard. Composites can be very difficult to obtain a A+ result. It takes time and proper equipment and great hands. Its even harder when you have a terrible patient in the chair. Dentures suck to do and so do difficult extractions.

If you take insurance like my practice....the reimbursement rates can be very minimal. To truly make a lot of money as a associate you have to be balling all the time. You have to be very productive. I'm not. I'm not very good at treatment acceptance and don't do highly productive procedures.

For the sake of keeping with the thread, from my own eyes, I do not agree with the OP that the profession is saturated. There are markets that are truly saturated;however, there are more unsaturated areas then there are saturated. Most dentists I know do well. Debt can be managed.

Just know that there is a hell of a lot more negative aspects to dentistry then the high debt load. I wish that I would have known some of these things as a pre-dent. But how can you. Shadowing doesn't really show you everything that you need. Even in school you don't see what it will really be like.

That was a very long post. Thank you for your input. Are you still happy you are a dentist though? I am sure you can make a list like this for almost any profession.

 

[ysrebob]

Another practicing dentist here just to reiterate that what the OP has said is true and real. His comments reflect the situation in major metro areas as it has developed since about 2009. Less urban parts of the country have changed less so far, but I have no doubt that most areas of the US are proceeding along this same trajectory he describes, at some rate, and that the change will accelerate as midlevels enter the profession in numbers (as it appears they eventually will).

To look at the big picture, though: many if not most white-collar occupations are experiencing some sort of labor oversupply or deterioration in conditions; it's not unique to dentistry. I originally trained to be an academic scientist, and if ever there was an utterly eff-ed up labor market, academic research science is it. 200+ extremely qualified applicants for every available university job. "Success" would be lucking into an assistant professorship at University of North Dakota earning $65K. Many of my old friends (and I was in a top-ranked ivy-league PhD progam) have yet to find stable employment anywhere, a decade after earning their PhDs; I just saw on Facebook last week that one left her postdoc to start life all over again as a first year Physicians Asst student at age 35ish.

So, dentists have a LOT to be grateful for. I love dentistry (most days) and am very grateful to be part of this profession. But I would not likely pay 400K to get into it. That is the recurring advice you're seeing from the practicing dentists who are posting on here.

 

[strep mutans]

I wish that I would have known some of these things as a pre-dent.

If you could do it all over again knowing what you know now, would you still go to dental school? If so, would you try to specialize?