DO psych programs

[HappyKitten]

Anybody know anything- good or bad- about AOA psych programs?
Which are the better ones?

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[lyla]

The two on the west coast that I briefly considered--Corvalis in Oregon and Arrowhead in CA.
Corvallis my friend interviewed at and he had a bad impression overall--he said at the resident dinner the night before, one of the residents seemed very unhappy. I turned down my interview here partly the pay was abysmal compared to other psych residencies.

You can read the other thread on Arrowhead psych in CA... but I've heard many bad things about that program too.

My friend scrambled into the Erie, PA program and apparently their call is Q3, pay is low (although it may be enough to live in the area).

The general advice for psych that I've received is that unless your stats are questionable, you should go for ACGME residencies since Psych is relatively D.O. friendly as long as you apply broadly.

EDIT: Sorry I meant Erie, not Lake Erie.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

The two on the west coast that I briefly considered--Corvalis in Oregon and Arrowhead in CA.
Corvallis my friend interviewed at and he had a bad impression overall--he said at the resident dinner the night before, one of the residents seemed very unhappy. I turned down my interview here partly the pay was abysmal compared to other psych residencies.

You can read the other thread on Arrowhead psych in CA... but I've heard many bad things about that program too.

My friend scrambled into the Lake Erie, PA program and apparently their call is Q3, pay is low (although it may be enough to live in the area).

The general advice for psych that I've received is that unless your stats are questionable, you should go for ACGME residencies since Psych is relatively D.O. friendly as long as you apply broadly.

The miserable Psych resident in Corvallis struck me as well, but I think it is more of a guy that is miserable overall. At the pre interview dinner my first interactions with him were me getting grilled as to why I interviewed at OHSU the day before.

The residency overall was just "ok" in my eyes. I ranked them but ranked them low for a few reasons. Many of these are personality/interest specific.
BAD:
1. I was specifically told if I had any interest in C/L this most likely wasn't the place to go due to lack of pathology.
2.They have no VA affiliation though as far as DO programs this is the norm I was hoping for something since it's dual accredited.
3. Even the happiest of residents here stated they felt they had a lack of autonomy as the attending to resident ratio is so small you constantly have someone looking over your shoulder
4. The cost of living is stupidly high for this town, what it is, and the town itself felt odd. It felt like the geeky wannabe Portland that it wasn't. Oh yeah salary is 10k less a year than OHSU for a similar cost of living.
GOOD:
1. Outside of the one Debbie Downer most of the residents appeared happy and we're pleasant.
2. The PD is very ambitious, is from Corvallis and is building a program that I'm guessing will be going places.
3. Outside of your off service rotations the hours and call seem very family friendly.
4. If you're interested in child they offer many unique child rotations to include a children's home as well as a child fellowship.

I interviewed at 2 AOA places the other was a poohole compared to this. If the merger ever goes through I don't see how 75% of AOA Psych residencies will be able to keep their doors open

 

[HappyKitten]

Thanks for your posts. Was wondering if anyone nterviewed or had any info on TX/FL/MO programs

 

[Dharma]

My friend scrambled into the Lake Erie, PA program and apparently their call is Q3, pay is low (although it may be enough to live in the area).
.

Q3? Ouch! Which years? All? I've heard Erie is on the cheap side compared to many other places. Tough winters but beautiful summers is the word. But Q3? Sounds booty.

 

[lyla]

http://opportunities.osteopathic.or...program_id=157346&hosp_id=118936&returnPage=1

Call is Q3 for PGY1, then Q4 for PGY2-4 for Erie, PA program (Millcreek)

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Thanks for your posts. Was wondering if anyone nterviewed or had any info on TX/FL/MO programs

Manatee Glens in Bradenton was the "other" AOA program I was referring to in my first post. PM if you need specifics.

 

[psych72]

I thought the Corvalis program was fair, and I ranked it higher than where I matched. They are dually acreddited and have 1 spot for AOA i think.

It was a family friendly safe town. I liked the fact that they were given a lot of supervision, but thats just me. I am going to a place that doesnt have much supervision. Also, the salary of the place Im goin is about 47K so idk if thats much different than corvalis. All in all, I thought it was a program that will go places. The PD was a really nice person and I liked meeting her.

 

[so721]

I liked the one that was in Grand Rapids. Very supportive faculty and the area is also very suburban like. They are both MD/DO acreditted.

By the way, the PD at Grand Rapids, is a DO and he seemed like he really wanted to the residents to have a good experience and was invested in their learning. Really sweet staff and faculty.

 

[microshar88]

I've heard the Call Schedule at Larkin? in Florida is pretty good this is just what I heard don't have anything to back it up so take it for what its worth.

Are the AOA programs that bad? How about the dually acreditted ones? I really think I should have applied to more AOA programs. A job is better than no job at this point, I was just worried about the lack of quality though.

 

[Ψ-117]

JPS Hospital in Fort Worth is dually accredited, so you get the perks of both AOA and ACGME. They also have a decent salary with good benefits, in a place that offers an affordable cost of living.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

I've heard the Call Schedule at Larkin? in Florida is pretty good this is just what I heard don't have anything to back it up so take it for what its worth.

Are the AOA programs that bad? How about the dually acreditted ones? I really think I should have applied to more AOA programs. A job is better than no job at this point, I was just worried about the lack of quality though.

Dually accredited are fine. The others I would avoid if possible. Knowing most of your story I certainly would have interviewed/ranked many AOA programs. I'm really curious why you haven't tried to scramble into any AOA.

Keep in mind most of my comments are comparing acgme to aoa programs, not aoa programs to not matching. Though I've heard of a couple programs where you'd probably be better off matching.

 

[psych72]

The one in Grand Rapids is really great. I think if one were to do the AOA match, that program is worth participating as we can get our foot in the door easier by doing AOA match for dually acreditted programs, I think?

 

[psych72]

I want to add that I had low stats and I got lucky with the md match but even the crummy AOA programs in remote areas will make you board eligible. You can get a good education if you invest yourself anywhere. I also think it's a better idea to end up at a lowly AoA place then at a place where it's purely IMG's since you won't be competing with people who have more experience or have visa issues that would make them more tolerant of abuse.

I avoided aoa match because I was not sure that a lot of aoa programs would survive after merger plus I wanna be done with omm

 

[serimeri]

I don't see why there are so few spots. I mean is funding for psychiatry really that big of a deal? I think the one in Corvalis has only 1 spot, I didn't get invited, but someone with lower stats did.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

ACGME psych programs are required to have a minimum of 4 residents in each year IIRC so they must have more than 1 spot. This isn't going to be a funding thing, they will have how many they need. Also any residency programs established from the late 1990s onwards are not eligible for medicare GME funding so they must get other funding (such as from the state) or the hospital has to decide it is cost-effective to have residents (which it is for the inpatient but not outpatient years if the residents are efficient). If they are restricting the number of AOA vs NRMP match spots, that seems sensible since the quality is probably going to be much better through the NRMP.

It is an AOA vs NRMP thing with Corvallis. They are taking a single resident through the AOA and the others through NRMP. There was mention that the person matching AOA should have at least an interest in their fast track child fellowship as this fellowship is currently only through the AOA.

With the above comment how did UW-Boise program work? Only this year did they start taking 4, the previous year I believe was 3 and before that only 2 per class.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Maybe UW-Boise is a track of the overall UW program.

 

[ari202]

Regarding ACGME/AOA psychiatry programs, would a candidate who is so-so on paper, fare better applying via the AOA match versus the ACGME match for a program?

This 2 separate match business is such a headache!

 

[sunshine1160]

I got 470 on COMLEX I, not doing so great on COMSAE, but will try and get it higher. I am doing 4 auditions at 4 MD places starting this summer, because people told me to avoid DO programs at all costs. Should I just do the NRMP match?

Let's hope my Level 2 gets blown out of the water. I'm not doing USMLE because I don't think I can do really great on it.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

OK to summarize the last two posts:

One wants to only apply AOA because both are too much trouble.

The other says to avoid AOA at all costs, but will not take the USMLE because they are not sure they would compare well.
Neither post would reflect very well on an applicant, I guess this is a result of anonymous forums.

 

[serimeri]

Has anyone heard anything about the JPS program at Dallas? I'm wondering why it did not fill.

 

[sunshine1160]

OK to summarize the last two posts:

One wants to only apply AOA because both are too much trouble.

The other says to avoid AOA at all costs, but will not take the USMLE because they are not sure they would compare well.
Neither post would reflect very well on an applicant, I guess this is a result of anonymous forums.

I was given that advice based on the feedback I got from seniors who did not take USMLE and still managed to do well in the match. I'm a non-traditional student and I am not too great with standardized exams, so I figured why take the risk of doing poorly and pay/take 2 exams, when a majority of places will accept the COMLEX.

 

[hoodwinkd]

Thanks for your posts. Was wondering if anyone nterviewed or had any info on TX/FL/MO programs

I've been told by multiple friends, faculty and attendings to avoid Larkin (FL) at all cost. Manatee Glens (FL) has actually matched relatively well for a 2 year new AOA program (have filled all their spots without needing to scramble). If you're concerned at all about the merger and the status of your program in a couple years, then definitely go for the already dual-accredited programs. Or at least avoid the programs that have long records of not filling in the match, something is usually a little off at those places. I heard secondhand that JPS (TX) interviews mostly those who rotate there.

 

[Ψ-117]

Has anyone heard anything about the JPS program at Dallas? I'm wondering why it did not fill.

It did fill, and they will have 5 interns this year.

 

[serimeri]

It did fill, and they will have 5 interns this year.

Oh I must have been mistaken then. I thought in the DO match, it did not fill and 2 spots were vacant.

https://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Education/students/match-program/Pages/match-results.aspx

 

[Mass Effect]

I was given that advice based on the feedback I got from seniors who did not take USMLE and still managed to do well in the match. I'm a non-traditional student and I am not too great with standardized exams, so I figured why take the risk of doing poorly and pay/take 2 exams, when a majority of places will accept the COMLEX.

Your friends are right. You don't need the USMLE, unless you're hoping to match at top places.

 

[HappyKitten]

I've been told by multiple friends, faculty and attendings to avoid Larkin (FL) at all cost. Manatee Glens (FL) has actually matched relatively well for a 2 year new AOA program (have filled all their spots without needing to scramble). If you're concerned at all about the merger and the status of your program in a couple years, then definitely go for the already dual-accredited programs. Or at least avoid the programs that have long records of not filling in the match, something is usually a little off at those places. I heard secondhand that JPS (TX) interviews mostly those who rotate there.

Anything else, besides avoiding, your friends tell you about those two programs? Any stories/anecdotes?

 

[Dharma]

Your friends are right. You don't need the USMLE, unless you're hoping to match at top places.

You have to wonder if this is changing. I'm not applying to "top places" but I'll have both USMLE steps in the bank come application season. I imagine I'm not the only one.

 

[Mass Effect]

You have to wonder if this is changing. I'm not applying to "top places" but I'll have both USMLE steps in the bank come application season. I imagine I'm not the only one.

I can't say if it's changing given that last year was the one and only year I applied so I can't compare it to how it was 10 years ago, but I didn't take it and had no trouble getting interviews. Same goes for several of my classmates who also applied psych without the USMLE. The vast majority of psych residencies do not require the USMLE. That's a fact really and when it comes to the case of the person I was replying to, taking it has the potential to hurt him more than help.

 

[Ψ-117]

Oh I must have been mistaken then. I thought in the DO match, it did not fill and 2 spots were vacant.

https://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Education/students/match-program/Pages/match-results.aspx

I see what you mean. My guess then is that it must have just taken everyone in from the NRMP match. I admit I don't know how it all works for dually-accredited programs when it comes to the matching process, but I am wondering if JPS simply didn't get enough applicants who applied through the AOA match, or if they could have backed out of the AOA match altogether and just gone with the NRMP match.

In this document from the NRMP match results of 2014, it shows that they filled all 4 positions with NRMP applicants. This year they had 5 positions to fill, but I could not find the NRMP match results for 2015; that document may not be available yet. But I wouldn't be surprised if they matched completely from the NRMP.

 

[Dharma]

I can't say if it's changing given that last year was the one and only year I applied so I can't compare it to how it was 10 years ago, but I didn't take it and had no trouble getting interviews. Same goes for several of my classmates who also applied psych without the USMLE. The vast majority of psych residencies do not require the USMLE. That's a fact really and when it comes to the case of the person I was replying to, taking it has the potential to hurt him more than help.

That's cool. I advise folks to take it (if they're prepared and scoring decent on practice exams). It levels the playing field. I'm also of the opinion that there are likely a decent amount of programs that may not officially require the USMLE, but would certainly prefer it.

 

[Mass Effect]

That's cool. I advise folks to take it (if they're prepared and scoring decent on practice exams). It levels the playing field. I'm also of the opinion that there are likely a decent amount of programs that may not officially require the USMLE, but would certainly prefer it.

That's fine. There's nothing wrong with taking it if you know you're going to score well and can afford to pay for it. I just think that it should be pointed out that it's a fact that there are plenty of psych programs open to DOs who choose not to take it.

 

[Ψ-117]

That's cool. I advise folks to take it (if they're prepared and scoring decent on practice exams). It levels the playing field. I'm also of the opinion that there are likely a decent amount of programs that may not officially require the USMLE, but would certainly prefer it.

That's fine. There's nothing wrong with taking it if you know you're going to score well and can afford to pay for it. I just think that it should be pointed out that it's a fact that there are plenty of psych programs open to DOs who choose not to take it.

I agree with these posts. My personal anecdote is that I applied without the USMLE and received interviews at plenty of wonderful programs, but there were a few which did not invite me and by comparison they tended to have more name recognition. Although they all stated a few years ago that they accepted the COMLEX, I recently discovered that a couple of them now require the USMLE.

 

[serimeri]

I see what you mean. My guess then is that it must have just taken everyone in from the NRMP match. I admit I don't know how it all works for dually-accredited programs when it comes to the matching process, but I am wondering if JPS simply didn't get enough applicants who applied through the AOA match, or if they could have backed out of the AOA match altogether and just gone with the NRMP match.

In this document from the NRMP match results of 2014, it shows that they filled all 4 positions with NRMP applicants. This year they had 5 positions to fill, but I could not find the NRMP match results for 2015; that document may not be available yet. But I wouldn't be surprised if they matched completely from the NRMP.

Interesting. I wonder if a dually acreditted residency is allowed to do that. I mean why bother having the dual accreditation when you are only going through NRMP.

I didn't interview with them for what its worth. Also, on the same note, for those that did the 2 matches, I imagine it would be easier for DO's to get in via the osteopathic match since there is presumably less competition.

 

[serimeri]

That's cool. I advise folks to take it (if they're prepared and scoring decent on practice exams). It levels the playing field. I'm also of the opinion that there are likely a decent amount of programs that may not officially require the USMLE, but would certainly prefer it.

That's so true. General rule is, everyone would prefer a USMLE score. But not having it, does not mean you will be at a huge disadvantage at a majority of some nice programs.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

I was just populating our “Frieda” survey thing and I noticed something interesting about the USMLE/COMLEX thing. It starts with part I and asks if you require part I. Then it asks if you have a minimum score requirement and what that is (obviously something north of 185). Then it asks what your average step one score is for your residents. Then it asks if you accept COMLEX. If you say yes, then you have to populate the average score question. If you say no, then the average score question goes away.

I got to thinking, if a program doesn’t have any DOs in it, they would have to make up an average score number in order to say they accept COMLEX. I didn’t test it to see if you could leave it blank, but it could be a bit of a chicken and egg problem.

 

[FutureDO2016]

Are AOA Psych programs open to a student that failed Level 1?

 

[GUH]

Are AOA Psych programs open to a student that failed Level 1?

As of 2012, only 72.4% of matches into AOA Psychiatry passed COMLEX 1 on the first attempt. I'm hoping that they release an updated version of the Osteopathic GME Match Report this year for the 2014 match.

 

[JamesPhilly]

Anybody know anything- good or bad- about AOA psych programs?
Which are the better ones?

I've mentioned before that Michigan state's AOA program in Lansing is fantastic. Dually accredited program, has a great child fellowship. If I wasnt limited for family reasons by geography, I would have pulled out of the acgme match and gone there

There is also Einstein in Philly, they have the only child CRC in the city (Germantown), also dually accredited

 

[Dharma]

I've mentioned before that Michigan state's AOA program in Lansing is fantastic. Dually accredited program, has a great child fellowship. If I wasnt limited for family reasons by geography, I would have pulled out of the acgme match and gone there

There is also Einstein in Philly, they have the only child CRC in the city (Germantown), also dually accredited

Einstein's adult program is not dual though. FYI for onlookers.

 

[Dharma]

...

 

[serimeri]

I've mentioned before that Michigan state's AOA program in Lansing is fantastic. Dually accredited program, has a great child fellowship. If I wasnt limited for family reasons by geography, I would have pulled out of the acgme match and gone there

There is also Einstein in Philly, they have the only child CRC in the city (Germantown), also dually accredited

Did you rank Lansing in the MD match? If you interview at a DO place, I think you can still rank them in the MD match if they are dually acreditted.

 

[NontradCA]

I've been told by multiple friends, faculty and attendings to avoid Larkin (FL) at all cost. Manatee Glens (FL) has actually matched relatively well for a 2 year new AOA program (have filled all their spots without needing to scramble). If you're concerned at all about the merger and the status of your program in a couple years, then definitely go for the already dual-accredited programs. Or at least avoid the programs that have long records of not filling in the match, something is usually a little off at those places. I heard secondhand that JPS (TX) interviews mostly those who rotate there.

Larkin is ACGME accredited now. Any additional experience with this program?

 

[SomeDoc]

this is pretty terrible reasoning. the AOA programs are almost all in terrible locations, pay terribly, have terrible benefits, work you to the bone, have no duty hours restrictions, you will be working with people who are truly the worst residents, and there is no basic standard of training or education, and little to no psychotherapy training. the idea that IMGs on visas are more tolerant of abuse has some credence, but a resident at an AOA program would have to be just as if not more tolerant of abuse given that you would be in a similar if not more precarious position whereby you would be untouchable if you departed the program and your career in medicine would be over. A good IMG OTOH may still have a chance of rescuing their career.

Readers, take what you read on public forums with a healthy dose of skepticism, and get accurate answers from official sources.

7.2 The trainee shall not be assigned to work physically on duty in excess of 80 hours per week averaged over a 4-week period, inclusive of in-house night call and any allowed moonlighting. No exceptions to this policy shall be permitted.
7.3 The trainee shall not work in excess of 24 consecutive hours.
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...-basic-document-for-postdoctoral-training.pdf

 

[Dharma]

Readers, take what you read on public forums with a healthy dose of skepticism, and get accurate answers from official sources.

7.2 The trainee shall not be assigned to work physically on duty in excess of 80 hours per week averaged over a 4-week period, inclusive of in-house night call and any allowed moonlighting. No exceptions to this policy shall be permitted.
7.3 The trainee shall not work in excess of 24 consecutive hours.
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...-basic-document-for-postdoctoral-training.pdf

I agree about investigating beyond info obtained from an Internet forum however the existence of an official statute does not necessarily mean that programs abide by such. I know of at least one that regularly breaks hour requirements, with residents putting in 100 hours a week (and averages over 80). These places have flown under the radar because they're small and led with a good-old-boys mentality. The hope is that the ACGME cracks down on those programs that have similar cultures and requires them to improve or dissolve.

All of that said, I still advise DO students to apply ACGME. I say this as a DO as well.

 

[SomeDoc]

I agree about investigating beyond info obtained from an Internet forum however the existence of an official statute does not necessarily mean that programs abide by such. I know of at least one that regularly breaks hour requirements, with residents putting in 100 hours a week (and averages over 80). These places have flown under the radar because they're small and led with a good-old-boys mentality. The hope is that the ACGME cracks down on those programs that have similar cultures and requires them to improve or dissolve.

All of that said, I still advise DO students to apply ACGME. I say this as a DO as well.

It goes both ways, I did 94 hours in one week as an intern while on an offservice rotation as an ACGME resident and it was not reported as a duty hour violation because it was considered offservice. This is a well known program as well.

 

[st2205]

It goes both ways, I did 94 hours in one week as an intern while on an offservice rotation as an ACGME resident and it was not reported as a duty hour violation because it was considered offservice. This is a well known program as well.

What were the other weeks like? You can work that much. You just can't do it consecutively for four weeks.