DO students do NOT have an easier time specializing through the military match

[LittleFoot]

If anyone is considering doing milmed through the military (especially HPSP), I recommend doing your own research rather than relying on any information you get from a recruiter.

Just a little about me- I applied to both Army and Air Force HPSP and have been accepted to Western U in Oregon (a DO school). I declined both scholarships.

Let me give you a few real examples of how recruiters have lied to me:

1) My Air Force recruiter told me that the HPSP scholarship was especially competitive this year. Later, he was on the phone to my undergrad adivsor and told her anyone who applies gets a spot unless they have serious health problems. (oops!)

2) My Army recruiter told me that you had to have at least a 33 on the MCAT to be competive for Air Force or Navy. I didn't get anywhere near a 33 and I got the Air Force scholarship just fine with my *lower* MCAT score.

3) My Army recruiter told me I should accept the HPSP scholarship because I'd be on "equal footing" with the MDs and that unless I matched through the military, I would have very little chance of specializing as a D.O.

#3 actually seems to be a popular topic on SDN and some people actually believe this. I'm going to prove that if you want to specialize as a DO, you have a WAY better chance NOT doing it through the military.

The way I'm going to prove this is by comparing COMLEX 1 score data from the '2012 Osteopathic match report' and 'Board scores for Matched HPSP/USUHS Students' (class of 2012). My recruiter sent me the data for the HPSP board scores as a PDF. (If anyone wants this, just PM me- it includes mean and min board scores- both USMLE and COMLEX for each speciality).

So let's compare mean COMLEX scores of some of the specialities and see what we find out.
Ortho:
Osteopathic match: 574 mean
Military match: 611 mean

Optho:
Osteopathic match: 524 mean
Military match: 575 mean

Diagnostic Radiology:
Osteopathic match: 572 mean
Military match: 622 mean

Family Medicine:
Osteopathic match: 463 mean
Military match: 452 mean

Interesting... the only speciality that is less competitive in the military match is Family Medicine.


Take home lessons:
1) HPSP is NOT competitive.
2) Contrary to popular belief, if you are a DO student, you can specialize just fine if you work for it. You will worsen your chances if you do HPSP.

---

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[backrow]

Maybe the DOs going into the military are on average smarter than the average DO.....that would skew the average up. I don't think you can extrapolate the ease of getting a specialty in the military match by looking at the data you have.

Your other "lies" are pretty weak in all honesty. Those have nothin on the "you can do a civilian residency if you want" or similar tales some have been told.

Oh almost forgot. The Navy HPSP absolutely is competitive these days. I can't comment on army and air force as I have never sat on their boards.

 

[LittleFoot]

Why would they be smarter? What correlation is there between military medicine and intelligence vs. non-military medicine and intelligence?

 

[backrow]

What correlation is there in your data???? There is absolutely no variable control in the raw data you have. If you had the average comlex score for military and non military DO you could maybe extrapolate some more from the data you have otherwise it isn't very helpful data.

 

[LittleFoot]

The data simply shows that those specializing in the military have higher scores than those that don't. You can interpret that however you want. Intelligence seems like an awfully outlandish correlation. My best guess would be that the military bases its decisions of who to accept more on board scores than personality. This could hurt you or help you, I suppose.
Plus, the odds of matching in the military are different than the odds for the civilian match. Some professions are absolutely harder to get (even without my data, this is widely known). Others, like PM&R or Peds EM, don't exist at all. Plus, because the pool of applicants is so small, the odds can shift drastically from year to year in a way that never happens in the civilian match. I don't like any of that.

 

[backrow]

The data simply shows that those specializing in the military have higher scores than those that don't. You can interpret that however you want. Intelligence seems like an awfully outlandish correlation.

In my opinion board scores correlate well with intelligence...I don't think that's too much of a stretch for most people.

My best guess would be that the military bases its decisions of who to accept more on board scores than personality.

And you would be wrong in my experience. Most candidates get ample opportunity to rotate at the locations and specialties of their desire within the military system. This allows the program to get a very good idea as to whether that person is a good fit or not. Also based on the GMESB scoring system your entire medical school story (including step 1 & step 2 scores) count for a whopping 5 points total. This is fairly minimal in the big scheme of GME scoring. Try even getting an interview with a 210 Step 1 score for something like ophtho/derm/ortho, etc in the civilian world. Good luck. In the military you would get an audition rotation and an interview with an even lower score. Wouldn't necessarily match, but they wouldn't automatically deny you a rotation/interview based on that alone.

Plus, the odds of matching in the military are different than the odds for the civilian match. Some professions are absolutely harder to get (even without my data, this is widely known). Others, like PM&R or Peds EM, don't exist at all. Plus, because the pool of applicants is so small, the odds can shift drastically from year to year in a way that never happens in the civilian match. I don't like any of that.

But that wasn't the title of your thread or your argument in your post. You said you would "PROVE" something and in my opinion failed miserably. I'm not arguing if HPSP is right/wrong for you personally. I'm arguing that your data to argue your point is not applicable to what you are trying to prove without other contextual insight.

 

[idq1i]

You recruiters are not outright lying. They are sales people, whose careers depend on how many hapless premeds they can hook. They will bend the truth to make milmed look as attractive as possible. Anything they say can be true, as long as it is a specific day, specific time, specific location, and the exact phase of the moon

"It's so competitive" - 4 applications came in today, whereas I usually get 1/week
"You need a high MCAT score" - Makes milmed look good to the clueless. In my experience, AD folks OVERALL are strictly average-to slightly below average in medical acumen, with an excess of DOs
"MD = DO in the military" - What else did you expect to hear? The truth regarding overall competitiveness? What kind of a salesman would your recruiter be?

 

[aklark]

I.

Are these COMLEX scores for AOA residencies? All military residencies have ACGME accreditation, so you'd need to compare military COMLEX/USMLE scores to those of DO students who matched at ACGME residencies, no?

Many ACGME programs won't even interview DO applicants. All HPSP participants have the opportunity to rotate/interview at military programs, so the "equal footing" comment seems to have some truth.

 

[LittleFoot]

In my opinion board scores correlate well with intelligence...I don't think that's too much of a stretch for most people."

This comment is so ignorant I don't even know where to begin. I just remembered that it's people like you that keep me off SDN 99% of the time. The question ISN'T and NEVER WAS whether high board scores correlate well with intelligence. Although this is a entirely different topic, if I based intelligence off of your apparent lack of common sense and your own assumption, I wouldn't bank you on getting an exceptionally high score. Then again, common sense does not equal intelligence, right? At least that's what my pre-med associates used to say (at least the ones that lacked common sense and any kind of emotional intelligence but had those 38 MCAT scores).

Please see my above post that you initially responded to but apparently forgot about. "Why would they be smarter? What correlation is there between military medicine and intelligence vs. non-military medicine and intelligence?"

 

[LittleFoot]

What kind of a salesman would your recruiter be?

Are you really arguing that recruiters should be compared to salesmen? So if I want to devote the next 8+ years to the military and serving my country, it's not big deal if he lies to me? This is a huge commitment and nothing but 100% honesty should be expected. Part of the reason I didn't sign up (and I'm sure many others) is because of how dishonest they were with me. I couldn't help but wonder: If they are lying to me about that, what else are they lying to me about?

 

[Homunculus]

Are these COMLEX scores for AOA residencies? All military residencies have ACGME accreditation, so you'd need to compare military COMLEX/USMLE scores to those of DO students who matched at ACGME residencies, no?

Many ACGME programs won't even interview DO applicants. All HPSP participants have the opportunity to rotate/interview at military programs, so the "equal footing" comment seems to have some truth.

this is a great point. and you have to remember the military residency applicants are prescreened via HPSP, and all military residencies are ACGME. if you throw out all of the AOA accredited programs (which you should if you want a true comparison) i suspect your conspiracy will evaporate.

my experience going through the system is the opposite. i feel DO students are given more than their fair shake at residencies, and probably moreso with fellowships. there are many reasons to not do HPSP, i would not rank this in the top ten.

--your friendly neighborhood ACGME turncoat fellowship trained osteopathic caveman

 

[LittleFoot]

this is a great point. and you have to remember the military residency applicants are prescreened via HPSP, and all military residencies are ACGME. if you throw out all of the AOA accredited programs (which you should if you want a true comparison) i suspect your conspiracy will evaporate.

my experience going through the system is the opposite. i feel DO students are given more than their fair shake at residencies, and probably moreso with fellowships. there are many reasons to not do HPSP, i would not rank this in the top ten.

--your friendly neighborhood ACGME turncoat fellowship trained osteopathic caveman

Very true. I'm guessing the numbers I found on their website is for AOA residencies. If you are hell bent on matching ACGME, you will probably have an easier time in the military. But I am comparing specializing (period) as a D.O. and through the military. Before I get flamed on how AOA residencies are trash, I shadowed a D.O. in Colorado that did an AOA residency. He is now one of the top 5 Opthalmalogists in the state.

 

[idq1i]

Very true. I'm guessing the numbers I found on their website is for AOA residencies. If you are hell bent on matching ACGME, you will probably have an easier time in the military. But I am comparing specializing (period) as a D.O. and through the military. Before I get flamed on how AOA residencies are trash, I shadowed a D.O. in Colorado that did an AOA residency. He is now one of the top 5 Opthalmalogists in the state.

n=1. Not to get into the MD/DO argument, there is generally a reason that people go to a DO school, and it's not "treating the patient as a whole" drek.

Your righteous indignation about recruiters is misguided. They are presenting the most optimistic scenarios in the ideal world. Your job is to research their information, and make a decision for yourself. I failed in this step, and I now have 799 days left in this system.

 

[psychbender]

Here's another thing that is going to mess up your data interpretation. How many people applied to Diagnostic Radiology that year? Thirty? Of those, how many were DOs? That last question is an unknown because they do not release that, and the first has to be inferred from the numbers that I already know are manipulated before being distributed. The point being, if there were only one or two DOs that applied to Radiology that year, then the reported average will be heavily skewed and of little to no meaning. I remember in my class year going through the same presentation, and was quite surprised at the low COMLEX scores for DOs and Derm, only to find out later that only one DO applied to Derm, and his score was just really low. It did not mean that there were a cohort of really low-scoring DOs about to start Dermatology residencies...just one guy.

 

[backrow]

Please see my above post that you initially responded to but apparently forgot about. "Why would they be smarter? What correlation is there between military medicine and intelligence vs. non-military medicine and intelligence?"

There is no reason a military DO would be smarter; however that was not my point. I was making the point that you were not controlling for all variables with the very limited data.

Given the rest of your post with that comment I'm quite glad you chose to not go the military route.

 

[LittleFoot]

There is no reason a military DO would be smarter; however that was not my point. I was making the point that you were not controlling for all variables with the very limited data.

Given the rest of your post with that comment I'm quite glad you chose to not go the military route.

As am I, given yours.

 

[backrow]

As am I, given yours.

Enjoy med school my friend. Please listen closely during your epidemiology and statistics classes.

 

[LittleFoot]

Enjoy med school my friend. Please listen closely during your epidemiology and statistics classes.

Ah, the personal attacks. Classic. Oh the places we could go Mr. Attending Navy Physician

 

[Homunculus]

i don't think it's a personal attack, just advice. you stated:

I'm going to prove that if you want to specialize as a DO, you have a WAY better chance NOT doing it through the military.

The way I'm going to prove this is by comparing COMLEX 1 score data from the '2012 Osteopathic match report' and 'Board scores for Matched HPSP/USUHS Students' (class of 2012). My recruiter sent me the data for the HPSP board scores as a PDF. (If anyone wants this, just PM me- it includes mean and min board scores- both USMLE and COMLEX for each speciality).

...

Take home lessons:
1) HPSP is NOT competitive.
2) Contrary to popular belief, if you are a DO student, you can specialize just fine if you work for it. You will worsen your chances if you do HPSP.

backrow et al just pointed out the faults in your "proof." if you want to base your decision on your statistically faulty analysis that's one thing-- but titling a thread as such and acting like you just discovered some deep dark secret is a bit self aggrandizing. and then you use an n of 1 as a counterpoint. this does not bode well for your first journal club.

--your friendly neighborhood your kung fu is weak caveman

 

[LittleFoot]

i don't think it's a personal attack, just advice. you stated:




backrow et al just pointed out the faults in your "proof." if you want to base your decision on your statistically faulty analysis that's one thing-- but titling a thread as such and acting like you just discovered some deep dark secret is a bit self aggrandizing. and then you use an n of 1 as a counterpoint. this does not bode well for your first journal club.

Ok, my bad. I shouldn't have used the word "prove". But in any case, my post helped people understand two things (if they didn't know them already):
1) Recruiters are very dishonest in regards to HPSP- (Apparently people on here justify them for being this way. I don't).
2) It is a myth that you need a 600+ COMLEX score to match into a competetive speciality as a D.O. However, this "myth" essentially becomes true if you decide to match through the military.

The proof is there that you don't need a rediculously high score to specialize as a DO. You can analyze it however you want. I analyzed it by stating that it doesn't make it any easier to specialize in the military. Plus, this is something most people know already, as people often don't get into their first choice of speciality because of both the fluxuation of military needs and number of applicants per slot available.

 

[Roberie]

Ok, my bad. I shouldn't have used the word "prove". But in any case, my post helped people understand two things (if they didn't know them already):
1) Recruiters are very dishonest in regards to HPSP- (Apparently people on here justify them for being this way. I don't).
2) It is a myth that you need a 600+ COMLEX score to match into a competetive speciality as a D.O. However, this "myth" essentially becomes true if you decide to match through the military.

Neither of your numbered statements is accurate.

1. Recruiters are less dishonest as they are misinformed and are trying to "sell" a product in a field where they have limited, peripheral experience.

2. You can't look at data from a single match year and make global generalizations. The sample size is incredibly small and there are wide fluctuations on a yearly basis. As someone who matched into radiology, I've been fairly obsessed with watching this data over the past four years. The numbers they release are widely different every year and there are only ~15 or so spots within the army. The fraction of DOs who apply is also quite variable and even if they account for half of those matched, that's still only 7 or 8 people we're talking about. How can you presume to generalize from those figures?

 

[LittleFoot]

Neither of your numbered statements is accurate.

1. Recruiters are less dishonest as they are misinformed and are trying to "sell" a product in a field where they have limited, peripheral experience.

2. You can't look at data from a single match year and make global generalizations. The sample size is incredibly small and there are wide fluctuations on a yearly basis. As someone who matched into radiology, I've been fairly obsessed with watching this data over the past four years. The numbers they release are widely different every year and there are only ~15 or so spots within the army. The fraction of DOs who apply is also quite variable and even if they account for half of those matched, that's still only 7 or 8 people we're talking about. How can you presume to generalize from those figures?

I'm not going to reply to this because you obviously didn't read the entire thread. Happy reading.

 

[pgg]

You know the guy's clueless when you've got milmed forum regulars defending recruiters in the thread.


LittleFoot, good luck with your future endeavors.

 

[bricktamland]

Queston: is the OP comparing the military match specifically with Osteopathic specialty residencies, or with all specialty residencies (including Allopathic)?

I'm an MD, so my knowledge about the subject is limited. But in my opinion, which is purely anecdotal, the DOs I've trained with had a much fairer shake in the military. I'm a radiologist and radiology is--or at least it used to be--very competitive. There were a number of DOs in my program that I'm relatively certain would have struggled mightly to land a residency spot at an ACGME program, simply because of the stigma of being a DO. That said, the vast majority of the DOs I trained with in the Navy were outstanding, so I think it's great that the military appears to have little bias against DOs. If I were a DO interested in a competitive residency in the military, I would not let this thread discourage me from applying. There are plenty of other reasons to be discouraged from taking an HPSP scholarship, but isn't one, IMO.

I also think board scores have a correlation with intelligence, but it's a weak correlation. Board scores mainly show how well someone tends to do at passing standardized tests, which in and of itself is definately an important quality to consider in an applicant, especially for residency programs. However, I think there is much more to intelligence than test-taking skills. The best physicians I've known and many of the most intelligent doctors I've known, were for the most part average test takers. It's true that people who struggle to pass the exams don't seem to have what it takes. At the other end of the spectrum, I've found many of the people with absurdly high scores tend to be frankly weird, eccentric, overly competitive, or with a narrow focus of talents.

 

[LittleFoot]

Thanks for your post, bricktamland. I agree that this post shouldn't discourage anyone from applying to the military. There are plenty of other reasons to not do HPSP, and even for me, this was far down the list.

Queston: is the OP comparing the military match specifically with Osteopathic specialty residencies, or with all specialty residencies (including Allopathic)?

I was actually comparing them to the Osteopathic speciality residencies because that's the only data I could find for DOs matching. I understand and agree that there is a strong bias for DOs applying to MD programs, and is surely more competitive than in the military.

I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[LittleFoot]

You know the guy's clueless when you've got milmed forum regulars defending recruiters in the thread.

I am clueless I guess. Hard to understand why someone would waste their time just pointlessly arguing.

 

[bustbones26]

Sigh, here we go again, another person on a crusade. Lest I say one thing that might possibly be perceived negative against the DOs or AOA, then we drive off into a useless accusatory tangent.

For the record, I am a DO, I did the Army HPSP scholarship program. I will speak on my experience, not by what a recuiter told me.

First, we all know that recuiters are salesmen/women! This does not apply to just recruiting doctors. Whenever meeting with a healthcare recruiter, your agenda should be to learn the appropriate steps to apply for HPSP, or FAP, whatever you need, NOT to hear a sales pitch. By that point in your life, you should know better.

We all at one point stressed about certain things. Am I going to match? What specialty do I want to do? If I join the Army will I match? Etc. etc. Those stresses will be present whether you are an MD, DO, Military or Civilian.

I think it is fair to say that you will find some individuals that had an exceptionally positive experience with military medicine and things always seemed to go their way. You will also find those that will tell you that everything went wrong from day #1. Most of us just fall somewhere in between.

People obsess over these stresses entirely too much while in medical school. I have heard more than my share of fuzzy numbers and statistics during medical school. Stay focused on your goals and life goes on.

 

[LittleFoot]

Sigh, here we go again, another person on a crusade. Lest I say one thing that might possibly be perceived negative against the DOs or AOA, then we drive off into a useless accusatory tangent.

For the record, I am a DO, I did the Army HPSP scholarship program. I will speak on my experience, not by what a recuiter told me.

First, we all know that recuiters are salesmen/women! This does not apply to just recruiting doctors. Whenever meeting with a healthcare recruiter, your agenda should be to learn the appropriate steps to apply for HPSP, or FAP, whatever you need, NOT to hear a sales pitch. By that point in your life, you should know better.

We all at one point stressed about certain things. Am I going to match? What specialty do I want to do? If I join the Army will I match? Etc. etc. Those stresses will be present whether you are an MD, DO, Military or Civilian.

I think it is fair to say that you will find some individuals that had an exceptionally positive experience with military medicine and things always seemed to go their way. You will also find those that will tell you that everything went wrong from day #1. Most of us just fall somewhere in between.

People obsess over these stresses entirely too much while in medical school. I have heard more than my share of fuzzy numbers and statistics during medical school. Stay focused on your goals and life goes on.

Good advice. What did you end up doing through the Army? Are you still doing your payback?

 

[VTBuc]

OP why does your status say 'Medical Student' when you make it clear that you are a pre-med?

 

[LittleFoot]

OP why does your status say 'Medical Student' when you make it clear that you are a pre-med?

I'm starting 1st year in a couple months and didn't want to go in and change it later I guess. My bad, lol.

 

[LittleFoot]

A little late on the debate.

For competitive specialties, military is more friendly for DOs.

Roughly 50 AOA funded optho spots. AOA ENT, Derm, and other competitive fields have small number of slots as well. Some spots are unfunded. How about the next DO school being opened up? Increases in class sizes? The cap on Medicare funding for increasing more residency programs/slots along with what funding is available that is skewed toward new primary care oriented residency programs. A lot of people in the 200 something class of 2014, didn't match in their desired AOA competitive specialty at my school and fell back into family med or AOA internship. At least in military, you can be a GMO, earn some points, and then have a decent shot to match into a competitive military residency program (Navy/Air Force way). Also, in my opinion, the requirement of ACGME accreditation by 2020 will put a fork in some of these AOA programs for not meeting standards (especially surgery fields, where number and types of surgery cases have to be performed in order to meet standards; little community "backwoods" urology or ENT residency isn't going to meet ACGME standards.) This isn't to say that there aren't some good AOA programs in larger populated areas (MI, Ohio, etc.) with high case volume. Finally, the future of DOs just taking Comlex with a 524 and matching AOA Optho are numbered thanks to the ACGME merge. Chances will be slim to none for those who don't do well on USMLE in the near future.

Good luck, Little Foot. You have a big journey ahead of you.



AOA Optho spots: http://thedo.osteopathic.org/?page_id=135121

Thanks for your post. You make some great points. I naively thought that the merger wouldn't directly affect me, since it won't be fully implemented until 2020, but it sounds like it will have some kind of effect on DOs, even now. May I ask if you are doing HPSP and what you are planning on specializing in?

 

[DrMetal]

This thread---and the fact that the Kings are getting killed by the Sharks---has amounted to a bad start for the week.

 

[LittleFoot]

This thread---and the fact that the Kings are getting killed by the Sharks---has amounted to a bad start for the week.

Matt Cooke didn't make your list of bad things to start the week? No one obligated you to read this thread. Or be a Kings fan :O

 

[Sean Lee]

@LittleFoot

I just sent you a PM, and I would greatly appreciate your response.

Thanks.

 

[4401]

But in my opinion, which is purely anecdotal, the DOs I've trained with had a much fairer shake in the military. I'm a radiologist and radiology is--or at least it used to be--very competitive. There were a number of DOs in my program that I'm relatively certain would have struggled mightly to land a residency spot at an ACGME program, simply because of the stigma of being a DO. That said, the vast majority of the DOs I trained with in the Navy were outstanding, so I think it's great that the military appears to have little bias against DOs.

bricktamland, all,

I apologize for resurrecting this old thread, but am respectfully soliciting additional opinions on this subject.

I am prior service (nearly 10 years TIS), and have been accepted to a DO school. Amongst the myriad of factors (financial and otherwise) that are popping up in our family's decision-making is the idea (or myth?) that DOs face less stigmas (professional or otherwise) in military medicine, as compared to civilian medicine.

Scenario #1: Dr. Schmuckatelli, DO: practices IM/FM/Pediatrics in a large (market-saturated) city, but faces appreciable professional limitations? (e.g. doesn't work in SF proper, but in an outlying suburb; has little to no chance of doing academic medicine; etc)

Scenario #2: Dr. Schmuckatelli, DO (LT, MC): faces the same pros/cons of military medicine that have been repeated ad nauseum on this (and other) forums, but has one unique comparative advantage: enjoys a measure of professional parity with MDs that is relatively absent in civilian medicine​

Three caveats:
1. The growing prevalence of DO students/practitioners is changing the "DO vs. MD" divide
2. Same with the move towards a single accreditation system for residencies
3. Professional parity (perceived or real) is just one of many factors to consider when choosing military medicine

In sum, I am wondering whether the much-debated question of "should I go into military medicine or not?" is (or should be) different for DOs vs. MDs. Thank you in advance for your input.

V/R,
4401

 

[Homunculus]

the MD vs DO debate should not be in your top ten reasons for choosing the military route. the military was DO friendly before the entirety of the US was. i have yet in my 11 years on active duty witnessed an incident of DO v MD debate or any positive or negative impact of the source of doctorhood in regards to career or specialty. there are crappy and stellar people from both. this debate largely dissolves once you are out of medical school- *especially* in primary care. it's a pre-med and maybe to a degree med school phenomenon.

will you make department chief at an MD ivory tower as a DO? probably not. but unless this is your life goal you need to look at other things (practice environment, PCS, operational tours, deployments) to base your decision on.

In sum, I am wondering whether the much-debated question of "should I go into military medicine or not?" is (or should be) different for DOs vs. MDs. Thank you in advance for your input.

no.

-- your friendly neighborhood subspecialist DO caveman

 

[anonimoose]

.

 

[4401]

Dr. Homunculus,

the military was DO friendly before the entirety of the US was. i have yet in my 11 years on active duty witnessed an incident of DO v MD debate or any positive or negative impact of the source of doctorhood in regards to career or specialty.

I'm sorry, sir, but when you say that 1) the military is DO friendly (and long has been) and that 2) you have never witnessed an incident of DO v MD debate during your decade+ on active duty, aren't those positive statements that reinforce the idea that DOs face less stigma (professional or otherwise) in military medicine? And if so, isn't that a good thing for a would-be DO comparing military medicine to civilian practice, sir?

Secondhand, I know of at least one confirmed incident where a DO was not hired (at a civilian private practice) specifically because he was not an MD. If this kind of discrimination -- however rare -- would not happen in the military, that sounds like an advantage to me, sir.

the MD vs DO debate should not be in your top ten reasons for choosing the military route.

Point taken, sir. You're basically arguing that despite the genuine professional parity amongst MDs and DOs in military medicine, the advantage such parity confers is ultimately so minor that it shouldn't be in the top ten list of factors to consider when choosing between military and civilian medicine. Understood, sir.

V/R,
4401

 

[asdf123g]

the MD vs DO debate should not be in your top ten reasons for choosing the military route. the military was DO friendly before the entirety of the US was. i have yet in my 11 years on active duty witnessed an incident of DO v MD debate or any positive or negative impact of the source of doctorhood in regards to career or specialty. there are crappy and stellar people from both. this debate largely dissolves once you are out of medical school- *especially* in primary care. it's a pre-med and maybe to a degree med school phenomenon.

will you make department chief at an MD ivory tower as a DO? probably not. but unless this is your life goal you need to look at other things (practice environment, PCS, operational tours, deployments) to base your decision on.



no.

-- your friendly neighborhood subspecialist DO caveman

so your saying an EQUAL number of DO's match competitve specialies and locations as MD's in the military?
DO's also do not have to take the USMLE to be 'competitive'?

 

[psychbender]

I'm sorry, but when you say that 1) the military is DO friendly (and long has been) and that 2) you have never witnessed an incident of DO v MD debate during your decade+ on active duty, aren't those positive statements that reinforce the idea that DOs face less stigma (professional or otherwise) in military medicine? And if so, isn't that a good thing for a would-be DO comparing military medicine to civilian practice?

Secondhand, I know of at least one confirmed incident where a DO was not hired (at a civilian private practice) specifically because he was not an MD. If this kind of discrimination -- however rare -- would not happen in the military, that sounds like an advantage to me.

Seriously? I have never heard of it at the civilian hospitals where I rotated as a resident, nor moonlighted (moonlit?) as an attending. About the only place I've ever seen anti-DO sentiment has been among pre-meds and med students at hospitals where I did MS3 and 4 rotations (and on SDN). Since my school was still new, some of the residents also turned up their noses at us, but that quickly changed when we started graduating students, and filling their programs.

Also, you are talking about a case of post-residency discrimination. Are you planning on spending your entire career in the military? If that discrimination is real, you'll still have to face it when you eventually get out.

so your saying an EQUAL number of DO's match competitve specialies and locations as MD's in the military?
DO's also do not have to take the USMLE to be 'competitive'?

There is no way to know that for sure. The military does not publish that kind of match data. I can tell you in my class of 9 Army residents for anesthesiology, one MD was HPSP, 3 were USUHS, and the other 5 were DOs. None of us took the USMLE. I also knew DO residents in general surgery, orthopedic surgery, PM&R, Internal Medicine (and fellows in most of the sub-specialties), Prev Med, Pathology, and Radiology back in training.

If you want to think of it another way, maybe the military isn't so much 'DO-friendly' as it is not picky about who they ultimately get. There is a fixed number of graduating medical students and returning GMOs each year, and if they want to fill their programs, they're going to have to accept many of the applicants that can meet their academic standards, regardless of their degree. If you're a PD (and for some reason really hate DOs), have 10 spots in your program, but only get 12 applicants (half of which are DOs), you're going to have to accept them, if you want to fill. Maybe the next year, you get 30 applicants (half DOs), and you can then afford to discriminate, and fill with only the MD applicants.

 

[4401]

Dr. psychbender,

Seriously? I have never heard of it at the civilian hospitals where I rotated as a resident, nor moonlighted (moonlit?) as an attending.

Yes sir, seriously. Granted, this is one anecdotal case, and it was on the East Coast (though Providence RI hardly counts as a big city?), at a civilian private practice, that specialized in surgery vs. primary care, caveat, caveat, caveat -- but it did happen.

Also, you are talking about a case of post-residency discrimination. Are you planning on spending your entire career in the military? If that discrimination is real, you'll still have to face it when you eventually get out.

Yes sir. With nearly 10 years TIS, if I did go the military medicine route, I would likely make it a career. After retiring, the hope would be that the totality of my clinical experiences in uniform would carry far more weight in securing post-military employment than the title/letters after my name.

If you want to think of it another way, maybe the military isn't so much 'DO-friendly' as it is not picky about who they ultimately get.

I get what you and Dr. Homunculus are saying, sir. MD/DO professional parity in military medicine is ultimately not that big of a deal (and should certainly not be a major/deciding factor for a would-be DO contemplating military medicine). Moreover, MD/DO professional parity in civilian medicine is (fast becoming) the overwhelming norm, with just a few isolated counter-examples.

Nonetheless sir, I do think out of pure intellectual honesty we would have to characterize the complete lack of discrimination against DOs in military medicine ("i have yet in my 11 years on active duty witnessed an incident of DO v MD debate or any positive or negative impact of the source of doctorhood in regards to career or specialty") as a measurable comparative advantage, however small. It is real, and thus somewhat of a unique distinction for (future/current) DOs contemplating military medicine, as compared to (future/current) MDs.

V/R,
4401

 

[Cooperd0g]

4401,

There is a thread that discussed the "rising value of HPSP" specifically in regard to the costs of private school, which most DO schools are. I agreed at the degree to which the military is DO friendly isn't a good reason to choose the military. However, given the costs of private school, your familiarity with the military and understanding of the limitations imposed on you, and having 10 years time in service already, the military may not be a bad option for you. Basically you do residency and probably two tours and you can retire. Heck, if you are thinking Navy and can get an HSCP spot then you could probably just extend from your first tour out of residency and retire.

 

[j4pac]

I think that you flexibility is underrated. The Army and Air Force offer very little flexibility because of their lack of GMO tours. At least in the Navy, if you don't have any luck with military GME, you could do a GMO tour and get out. Obviously, it is still a painful process, but at least that door is open for you. I love the Navy...without the military I would likely be on a farm right now. I was going to go into the military regardless of the scholarship programs...and that is the type of person who should go into the military. Don't go into the military unless you are doing so to selflessly take care of the men and women of the military. Under any other scenario....you lose. Military GME is NOT easier than civilian GME...for anyone. The sacrifices are too great and the headaches are too large if it isn't something that you LOVE.

 

[psychbender]

Agreed. 4401 has other compelling reasons to take HPSP, and the relatively DO-friendly nature of milmed is one of them, but should be lower on the list.

 

[Homunculus]

Nonetheless sir, I do think out of pure intellectual honesty we would have to characterize the complete lack of discrimination against DOs in military medicine ("i have yet in my 11 years on active duty witnessed an incident of DO v MD debate or any positive or negative impact of the source of doctorhood in regards to career or specialty") as a measurable comparative advantage, however small. It is real, and thus somewhat of a unique distinction for (future/current) DOs contemplating military medicine, as compared to (future/current) MDs.

phrased this way, yes i agree. i was looking at your question more one directionally-- ie, does being a DO in the military put you at a disadvantage. on the flip side, i suppose you could argue that the lack of "discrimination" (which i would posit primarily exists in pre meds and SDN) and the scenarios @psychbender mentions could be looked at as an advantage. to be honest, your prior service (depending on what it involved) would likely put you at more of an advantage than any real or perceived MD/DO issue.

--your friendly neighborhood bonecracking (was actually useful on my deployment) caveman

 

[deuist]

You know the guy's clueless when you've got milmed forum regulars defending recruiters in the thread.

Getting the old-timers to defend recruiters is quite an accomplishment. Kind of an expert in reverse psychology?