Do you require an MRI before injecting?

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I don't think it is practical at all to order unnecessary tests. It may be necessary due to our tort system, but it is also destroying the health care system via overutilization of tests that have little chance of being positive and almost are guaranteed to be negative. It is substitution of knee jerk reactions for clinical evaluation and expertise. It also becomes self-fulfilling as a system that encourages this type of malfeasance when patients now come to expect from all their doctors the same type of over reliance on tests as did their one doctor who orders batteries of tests. Additionally, the "standard of care" that is so loosely bandied about by the plaintiff's expert witness becomes escalated to the point that a reasonable prudent physician does not stand a chance if he does not order excessive and unnecessary testing.
But we are the shepherds of the financial pursestrings for healthcare in this nation. We cannot bury our heads in the sand and pretend the 13% consumption of GDP by healthcare is someone else's problem. We also cannot be spineless physicians refusing to take any risk at all by doing what is right rather than what we know is useless and costly. People that are risk adverse definitely do not belong in medicine....there are much "safer" harbors for those people such as being a lab technician or a ledger entry clerk.
So how can we rectify the dichotomy of the reality of imminent bankruptcy of the system and the CYA mentality perceived by physicians that want to cover all legal contingencies should they find themselves in court? The issue has to come to the forefront of the healthcare debate by demonstrating how these lawsuits are ultimately restricting care and increasing healthcare bills. Call your congressman one on one...you do not need to recite talking points fed to you by a pain society. Talk to your patients and mobilize them ....give them printed material and tell them to call their congressman's number listed on the paper you hand to them. Your insurers may be very interested in discovering they could reduce testing by up to 90% if tort reform were in play. The medical societies could develop standards of care that include sanctions at the medical board level for those doctors that testify against other physicians and make up their own standards that are unsupported by the literature rather than saying "there is insufficient support in the literature to suggest a particular test should be ordered".
However, after all is said and done, it is unclear that tort reform would alter the patterns of test ordering by physicians. Some doctors just don't give a flip about the solvency of health care system that has enriched them and instead prefer intransigence to expediency. They have enshrouded themselves in the veils of litigious preventative behavior so long that they have forgotten how to diagnose using the tools that were acquired in medical school and residency. They have become risk adverse technicians that find it much simplier to check off a box to order a $3900 MRI rather than do a physician exam and thorough history that show it is not needed. They gave up being doctors long ago, preferring to become entrepeneur and could not find their way back even if they so desired to do so.
So perhaps you are right...it is practical to over order medical tests so that we can sleep at night, knowing we have covered all the bases. The patients that have just lost their homes due to our over ordering of tests may have a different perspective.

Well said. The lawyers write, enforce and interpret the rules. It's unfortunate the patients and physicians are caught in the middle. The sharks get fat while everybody else bleeds. There's no easy answer. You just have to do what you think is right one patient at a time.

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do we have ANY data to show that our history and physical exam skills are superior to MRIs?

as far as I am concerned we are sophisticated MRI interpreters - not expert historians.
 
The mri, just as other tests, is confirmatory of the findings on history and physical exam. Due to the very high number of false positives on mri the physical exam and history are critically important in achieving an accurate diagnosis especially the more common final diagnosis. Let me ask the opposite question: do we have sufficient evidence to utilize a mri exam in lieu of a good history and physical? Do we have evidence that the number of false positives and negatives on mri evaluations are sufficiently low to subjugate the history and physical exam to an ersatz subservient role? I maybe clinging to ancient 20th century ideas here about the practice of medicine but i have yet to find a tricorder on ebay. Perhaps in the future you will have a good point if computer diagnostics of the human body via mri or its offspring supplant the anachronistic H&P.
 
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The mri, just as other tests, is confirmatory of the findings on history and physical exam. Due to the very high number of false positives on mri the physical exam and history are critically important in achieving an accurate diagnosis especially the more common final diagnosis. Let me ask the opposite question: do we have sufficient evidence to utilize a mri exam in lieu of a good history and physical? Do we have evidence that the number of false positives and negatives on mri evaluations are sufficiently low to subjugate the history and physical exam to an ersatz subservient role? I maybe clinging to ancient 20th century ideas here about the practice of medicine but i have yet to find a tricorder on ebay. Perhaps in the future you will have a good point if computer diagnostics of the human body via mri or its offspring supplant the anachronistic H&P.

there's no question that a good H and P are vital. No one is arguing that point. However, this sort of gets into a discussion that someone was starting in the anesthesia forum about how PMR people have better physical exam skills and as a result are better suited for pain medicine.

Some of my good friends are PMR trained and I'm not bashng them. But aside from the rudimentary physical exam that ANY good physician can perform for back pain (fabres/patricks, SLR, laseque's, checking sensory/motor, reflexes, what kind of ROM ofthe lumbar spine there is on flex/ext/rotation, and of course inspection, palpation, percusson), there's not much more to a physical for someone with back pain. You dont have to be an expert in performing esoteric physical exam maneuvers. Even the PMR trained guys will tell me they dont do those esoteric physical diagnosis maneuvers.

We relay on the history (important) and physical, but nowadays rely on a MRI, both to help with confirming our suspicion and for medico-legal purposes. I think imaging is what brings medicine from the 19th century (where lots of things were missed) to the 21st century. I'm not saying just blindly order tests. You need a TRAINED physician looking at them and interpreting them and correlating them to their suspicions.

If your patient has a cyst vs herniated disc vs tumor, it's very hard to delineate that on a physical. A MRI can clue you in on it sooner. You've heard the stories of chiropractors doing extensive manipulations on people for years with temporary relief, only to find a tumor was present all along. So in light of what Tenesma was referring to two posts ago. In the above scenario, how can physical exam be better than an MRI as a diagnostic tool?

I think in modern medicine, MRIs are a great tool and we should use them when it's appropriate. It picks derangements up quicker and definitively, thus not prolonging a diagnosis that could have a high morbidity.
 
i kind of look at H&Ps / MRIs the same way I look at auscultating w/ a stethoscope versus doing an Echocardiogram....

a stethoscope will give you some information... seriously, how many cardiologists even can differentiate between AI and MR on auscultation? the ECHO is far superior...

does everybody need an ECHO? no...

does everybody need an MRI? no...

but by the time they make their way to a pain doctor, usually they have had the complaint for >6 weeks and have seen a variety of providers (PCPs, Ortho, PT, Chiro, etc) --- if they still have pain, regardless of my H&P, an MRI is indicated...

i consider myself a good clinician, but without the MRI non-specific low back pain complaints remain non-specific...

does the MRI improve outcome? completely different question.
 
I am relatively conservative when it comes to ordering MRIs. For axial back pain - if acute to subacute onset and dull achy pain - as long as xray doesn't show any acute dislocations/fractures, I treat with some medications (anti-inflammatories, muscle relaxants, no opioids) and a couple sessions of PT depending on mechanism of injury (if lifting - they need a little back education) Obviously, acute severe sharp pain and point tenderness on spine = imaging. If not better after 2-3 weeks of the above, MRI.

For chronic axial back pain - if they have never had an MRI (most of them already have) - try physical therapy, some muscle relaxants (no soma), +/- topical agents. if no improvement with PT, load facets, make sure it's not SI (palpate for pelvic obliquity, PSIS tenderness), examine for leg length discrepancy, shifts/scoliosis, etc. - if facet - try facet injections vs MBB depending on age, if SI - try SI ligament injection vs SI joint injection. If old, offer back brace/SI belt. Again, if no improvement, get MRI.

For radicular pain - if pain severe and considering ESI, get MRI. if pain not as severe, go to McKenzie spine PT +/- medrol dose pak, neuropathic agent. Most of my patients actually get better without ESI.

If weakness in myotome of radicular pain - will get MRI but still try conservative management for a few weeks (2-3 weeks) because I have seen McKenzie therapy help. if not improvement because of pain, try ESI. if weakness without pain, refer to surgeon. If any question of distal pathology (i.e. peroneal neuropathy, etc.) EMG/NCS.

I'm not going to get into the anesthesia vs PMR topic but I have seen "diagnostic" injections performed on patients by local pain docs under sedation on bilateral L3-4, L4-5, L5-S1 facets and SI joints. I have also seen bilateral L3-4, L4-5 transforaminal epidural injections. There are docs who commonly perform bilateral C2-C7 +TON MBB followed by RFA, etc. Now that BCBS won't cover C2 and TON, they go from C3-C7. It's kind of the carpet bomb approach. I try to identify the painful structure with palpation under fluoroscopy. I don't sedate my patients (maybe a little oral xanax if they are really anxious) because I want them to give me feedback. I also see all consults and if they ask for an inappropriate procedure, I'll dictate a note about why I chose not to do that and call the referring doc and explain to patient. I have had SCS consults for SI pain.

I don't bill/collect as much but have grown my referrals because the PCPs like my notes and the patients notice a difference. I don't do chronic opioid management because of my practice set up but refer to a good pain management practice with behavioral health, urine screen, and opioid agreement.

I also don't wait to get MRIs if a patient is not getting better. I tell them to call me in 2-3 weeks if they are not better with PT and meds. I diagnosed a metastatic tumor in one patient and a new syrinx + tonsillar herniation in another last week.
 
Then most of us agree that MRIs are overutilized, and many of these are ordered by PCPs that haven't a clue. What would be very interesting would be data demonstrating the percentage of those obtaining MRIs that had employed useful and long term interventions that make a difference in the patient's lives. As a corollary, what percent who have MRIs receive unnessary interventions that do NOT result in any long term improvements or actually result in more dysfunction/pain. These interventions of course cover the spectrum of all that is available across many specialties including surgery, chiropractic, IPM, PT, etc.
Whoever publishes this will get the next Volvo Spine award.
 
The mri, just as other tests, is confirmatory of the findings on history and physical exam. Due to the very high number of false positives on mri the physical exam and history are critically important in achieving an accurate diagnosis especially the more common final diagnosis. Let me ask the opposite question: do we have sufficient evidence to utilize a mri exam in lieu of a good history and physical? Do we have evidence that the number of false positives and negatives on mri evaluations are sufficiently low to subjugate the history and physical exam to an ersatz subservient role? I maybe clinging to ancient 20th century ideas here about the practice of medicine but i have yet to find a tricorder on ebay. Perhaps in the future you will have a good point if computer diagnostics of the human body via mri or its offspring supplant the anachronistic H&P.

Did you just say erstaz? :D
 
The question rarely comes up because in my area (midwest) the PCP's MRI everything that aches. Even hand and foot MRI's are obtained for hand and foot pain, sometimes before physical therapy is even ordered. So usually the MRI is already done before I see the patient.
If it is up to me, I do require MRI before injection because of the lawyers. Sorry, but it's the truth. We need tort reform.
 
I would like to have an MRI prior to neuraxial intervention. However, what do you do when you have a pt with radicular pain and a normal neuro exam. Insurance companies won't approve the MRIs in my area without an abnormal neuro exam. Of course, some how the PCPs seem to get them, but I don't know how.
 
the bypass for the insurance companies is to consider "pt feels weak in left leg" as the "abnormal" deficit... for some reason they will accept the subjective complaint regardless of my objective exam ---

i think once MRIs come down in price ... 200$/exam, then we should probably do MRIs on every body part as a screening tool - at least once a year, that way we can feed into the hypochondriac patient population.
 
Here's that 1 in 1000 case for MRI. I have an 84 year-old podiatrist I've been seeing for a few weeks for right hip pain, bad enough that he started using a walker. Xrays looked ok so I treated as soft tissue. PT did not help. Meds have barely helped. I got an MRI of his hip and it was normal, no OA, nothing. Bursa injection, joint injection and piriformis injections have not relieved his pain.

I order an MRI of the L-Spine, even though neuro exam is normal and the pain is only in his hip. Report comes back as moderate central stenosis and mild bilateral foraminal stenosis L4-5, diffuse DDD and FJA. As I'm viewing the films today with the patient, I notice what looks like a mass to the right of L5-S1, in the canal but outside of and anterior to the thecal sack. It looks like a couple cm long and 1/2 - 1 cm thick. I call the MRI center, the rad is busy with a PET scan but will call me back. An hour or so later he calls and says "Yeah, I see what you mean. I didn't read the films originally but there is no mention of that mass in the report. He needs to come back in for some contrast." I see surgery in his very near future. After reading the report and before viewing the films myself, I was planning for a possible ESI.
 
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that is another reason why we have to be experts at reading these films....

relying on useless reports is quite frankly useless
 
the bypass for the insurance companies is to consider "pt feels weak in left leg" as the "abnormal" deficit... for some reason they will accept the subjective complaint regardless of my objective exam ---

Insurance companies here are not accepting pt reported symptoms but requiring a physical exam finding...
 
Insurance companies here are not accepting pt reported symptoms but requiring a physical exam finding...

there are no neurological findings with true z-joint pain. if you require an MRI prior to a MBB (which i do as well), looks like we are SOL :eek:
 
Currently I am trying to get the MRIs. If insurance doesn't cover I explain to the patient that I would recommend it as there could be other unknown causes of the pain. However, if they accept the risk of not having the MRI I will still treat.
 
This is an old thread, but wanted to present one more scenario...

Clearly, the answer to whether MRI is required before doing ESI is debatable, with valid arguments on both sides.

My current practice is to obtain MRI prior to all spine injections, except SI joints. (As an aside...anyone require MRI of pelvis before doing SI joint injections?)

One of the concerns presented in the thread above with regards to not ordering MRI before injection, is the possibly delaying a time sensitive diagnosis (especially cancer). To play devil's advocate...what if a patient comes in severe acute pain, and does not have an MRI...would it be reasonable to do a lumbar (not cervical or thoracic) ESI (especially transforaminal as opposed to interlaminar) on the day of the first visit for reasons of being compassionate and trying to help provide immediate relief of pain, while at the same time ordering the MRI, so that there is no time lost in making the relatively rare diagnosis of cancer? I realize that no one ever dies of pain, so it's not like they couldn't wait for an MRI... Also, I am disregarding the issue of cost in this scenario, for purposes of discussion.
 
had pt referred to me for facet neck pain, clearly 84y/o with obvious facet disease on XR, I got MRI r/o spinal stenosis and there is dens fracture. XR missed it only 3 v done, MRI isn't only CYA but improves diagnostic acumen such that the correct procedure it done. FYI I am going to hold off on treating facets until this other issue it clear, then if needed we can do it
 
had pt referred to me for facet neck pain, clearly 84y/o with obvious facet disease on XR, I got MRI r/o spinal stenosis and there is dens fracture. XR missed it only 3 v done, MRI isn't only CYA but improves diagnostic acumen such that the correct procedure it done. FYI I am going to hold off on treating facets until this other issue it clear, then if needed we can do it
Dens fractures are often missed on plain films, especially of no open mouth odontoid view is done, and sometimes even then. Good pick up.
 
There is an area pain clinic that is so injection happy that they do the MBB (without any post injection assessment by the clinic or by patient), then RF, then epidurals, then discogram all without MRI. I think it will come back to haunt them later on...
 
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The clinical teaching supports X-rays for axial LBP plus exam.... MRI for appendicular symptoms... I still order a lumbar MRI for axial LBP based on risk factors....if there was tort reform I would cut my 200-300 mris per year by 25%....
 
The clinical teaching supports X-rays for axial LBP plus exam.... MRI for appendicular symptoms... I still order a lumbar MRI for axial LBP based on risk factors....if there was tort reform I would cut my 200-300 mris per year by 25%....
I agree. I order MRI for axial pain, not to find lateralizing pathology such as nerve root impingement or to rule in what I already know likely is causing a patients pain after history and exam, but to rule out the unexpected.

I had an MRI for axial low back pain come back a few weeks ago, with new onset retro-peritoneal cancer which was causing back pain. It turned out to be advanced ovarian cancer.

I had another lady with axial low back pain, turn out to have tumors in her back. It ruled in as metastatic melanoma. She died 6 weeks later.

I had another with non-specific low back pain a year or two ago, come back with lytic lesions in the vertebral bodies, which turned out to be multiple myeloma.

I had another with flank pain "it's exactly like my kidney stones doc, I just need somethin' for the pain." It turned out to be a 10cm AAA starting to blow. I have other examples. I could go on.

If they make it to me, a subspecialist, their getting an MRI (if none recent on file).
 
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i am always torn about this matter. we all have our examples. however, from an purely epidemiologic standpoint, what are essentially screening MRIs are hard to justify. a similar argument was made somewhat recently with mammograms and routine screening.

unfortunately, our clinical examination skills alone are not good enough to pick up these "red herrings", and insurers are not trusting us to allow us to order studies appropriately, and lawyers are too greedy to let us do what is right ethically...


so ill keep ordering MRIs for axial pain.
 
By the time they get to me, 99% of the time they're not "screening MRIs." First episode in the PCPs office = "screening MRI." First time in ER for back pain, never had imaging before = screening MRI.

Persistent pain > 1 month alone, is a criteria to image based on many guidelines. Age > 50 with back pain is criteria enough to image based on many society guidelines (higher risk of cancer and AAAs) regardless of pain duration. I'm not torn at all on this issue.
 
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National clearinghouse...
 
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Let me be specific so as to allow people to address my question. I currently consider/order MRIs on patients < 70 with > 6 weeks of back pain not responsive to PT and conservative self care. Patients over 70 and/or with red flags get MRIs.

I am specifically asking which guidelines recommend MRIs on patients with less than 6 weeks of pain, no red flags, and under age 70, because that are the cutoffs mentioned in above post.
 
Let me be specific so as to allow people to address my question. I currently consider/order MRIs on patients < 70 with > 6 weeks of back pain not responsive to PT and conservative self care. Patients over 70 and/or with red flags get MRIs.

I am specifically asking which guidelines recommend MRIs on patients with less than 6 weeks of pain, no red flags, and under age 70, because that are the cutoffs mentioned in above post.
Duct tape your summary is consistent with the national clearing house guidelines...interestingly an MRI may be ordered after 6 weeks of chronic pain irrespective of axial LBP without red flags... I Think that is the issue of clinical vs medical legal contention
 
Let me be specific so as to allow people to address my question. I currently consider/order MRIs on patients < 70 with > 6 weeks of back pain not responsive to PT and conservative self care. Patients over 70 and/or with red flags get MRIs.

I am specifically asking which guidelines recommend MRIs on patients with less than 6 weeks of pain, no red flags, and under age 70, because that are the cutoffs mentioned in above post.
Right here boss:

http://bfy.tw/CDt
 
That link says 3-6 MONTHS of low back pain, (or 4 to 6 weeks of leg pain). No age specification.

I will continue to use 6 weeks of back pain - that link is not convincing enough.
 
That link says 3-6 MONTHS of low back pain, (or 4 to 6 weeks of leg pain). No age specification.

I will continue to use 6 weeks of back pain - that link is not convincing enough.
You obviously didn't get the joke
 
@Ducttape there's plenty of references that indicate duration alone (either > 4 or 6 weeks depending on source) or age alone (usually age >50 or >70 depending on source) are red flags and valid indications for imaging.




"... lack of improvement after 1 month, and age older than 50 years are weaker risk factors "

From: Diagnostic Imaging for Low Back Pain: Advice for High-Value Health Care From the American College of Physicians
http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=746774



"Failure to improve after one month, Age over 50."

From: (Chou, Qaseem et al. 2007) (American College of Radiology 2008)
http://www.lni.wa.gov/claimsins/Files/OMD/MedTreat/Imaging/LBchecklist.pdf



"Recent significant trauma, or milder trauma, age >50.....Age >70...duration greater than 6 weeks"

From: American Society of Neuroradiology
http://www.ajnr.org/content/28/5/990.full



"Over 50 years old (increased risk of malignancy, compression fracture)...unresponsive to a minimum of four weeks of conservative therapy"

From: An insurance co. that even respects these red flags to trigger imaging
https://www.wellcare.com/WCAssets/corporate/assets/HS1012CPG_Imaging_for_Low_Back_Pain.pdf



"Fever,
Age > 50,
Recent trauma,
Pain at night or at rest,
Progressive motor or sensory deficit,
Saddle anesthesia,
Unexplained weight loss,
History of cancer or strong suspicion of cancer,
History of osteoporosis or chronic steroid use,
Immunosuppression or
Failure to improve after 6 weeks of conservative therapy."

From: Curr Rev Musculoskelet Med. 2009 Jun; 2(2): 69–73.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2697333/#!po=29.1667



"Low velocity trauma, osteoporosis, and/or Age >70 yrs •MRI lumbar spine without contrast
Low back pain and/or radiculopathy > 6 weeks, surgery or inter-vention candidate•MRI lumbar spine without contrast"

From: AMERICAN COLLEGE OF RADIOLOGY GUIDELINES FOR LOW BACK PAIN - DIAGNOSTIC IMAGING
http://www.medfusion.net/templates/groups/11257/22441/LowBackPain.pdf



"1. Trauma, cumulative trauma.2. Unexplained weight loss, insidious onset.3. Age >50 years, especially women, and males with osteoporosis or compression fracture.4. Unexplained fever, history of urinary or other infection.5. Immunosuppression, diabetes mellitus.6. History of cancer.7. Intravenous drug use.8. Prolonged use of corticosteroids, osteoporosis.9. Age >70 years.10. Focal neurologic deficit(s) with progressive or disabling symptoms, cauda equina syndrome.11. Duration longer than 6 weeks.12. Prior surgery....

LBP complicated by the red flags listed above may justify early use of CT or MRI"

From: American College of Radiology ACR Appropriateness Criteria
http://www.acr.org/~/media/ACR/Documents/AppCriteria/Diagnostic/LowBackPain.pdf



"failure to improve after 1mo, age over 50y"

From: Chou R, et al. (Even Chou says so!)
http://www.udel.edu/PT/PT Clinical Services/journalclub/sojc/11_12/November/imagingLBP.pdf



"Imaging studies (plain x-ray, MRI, CT scan) should not be performed prior to4 weeks (28 days per the HEDIS recommendation) of the initial episode except

Persistent unexplained fever. Recent significant trauma; milder trauma if over age 50. Severe non-mechanical back pain (i.e. pain at rest and in all positions especially at night). History of suspected malignancy, unexplained weight loss, etc. History of IV drug use, heavy alcohol use. History of immunosuppression. History of osteoporosis or prolonged corticosteroid use. Age greater than 70 years. Persistent pain for more than 4-6 weeks, not changing for the better with treatment outlinedbelow."

From: An insurance company
http://www.mahealthcare.com/assets/pdf/Practice_guidelines/Low_Back_Pain.pdf



Restraint guidelines regarding imaging are for primary care or other practitioners who are seeing patients with first episodes of back pain or duration of a few days to a couple weeks. That doesn't generally apply to us. If you don't want to image people, fine don't image people. I don't know about your patients, but almost all of mine have some red flag triggering advanced imaging.
 
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thank you for the links.

i am looking for justification via guidelines, etc. that your statement is how i should change my current practice, which is, without red flags such as trauma, that axial back pain not be imaged until > 6 weeks and in patients >70.

to wit: "Persistent pain > 1 month alone, is a criteria to image based on many guidelines. Age > 50 with back pain is criteria enough to image based on many society guidelines (higher risk of cancer and AAAs) regardless of pain duration. I'm not torn at all on this issue."
 
thank you for the links.

i am looking for justification via guidelines, etc. that your statement is how i should change my current practice, which is, without red flags such as trauma, that axial back pain not be imaged until > 6 weeks and in patients >70.

to wit: "Persistent pain > 1 month alone, is a criteria to image based on many guidelines. Age > 50 with back pain is criteria enough to image based on many society guidelines (higher risk of cancer and AAAs) regardless of pain duration. I'm not torn at all on this issue."
I'm not telling you to change your practice. I'm just telling you what I do and why.
 
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