Doctor's lifestyle and salary vs. Dentist lifestyle and salary

[badabadabing]

Hi everyone,
I have been debating with many friends of mine what profession would suit me best. From what I hear, a dentist has a much more 'predictable' lifestyle than the average MD, such as haviing roughly 9-5 hours, which is something I find very appealing as I am very family oriented. As well many have told me that a dentist on average makes much more money than a family doctor (which is something I would also be intersted in). I always wanted to be a sugeon but cant picture myself being on call so much and going to school untill I'm in my early 30's, so I think I would 'settle' for family dr if thats the path I choose. Dentistry also seems to be riskier in my eyes as a large investment is required upon graduation to establish a practice (ive heard around 150-300k). The last concern of mine is that people tell me that it is very hard to establish yourself as a dentist in a large city since most big cities have too many dentists already, whereas you usually here there is a doctor shortage almost evreywhere.

The reason this is so tough for me is that I could see myself as being very happy doing both. I am not using one as a backup for the other as some do. I truly am intersted in both.

I have spoken with some dr's and dentists and have gotten totally random responses such as 100% be a dentist, 150% be a doctor lol. I dont know what to say about some of them, they all seem to not enjoy doing what their doing which is sad and I dont wanna end up like that.

Could someone please let me know if its correct that general dentists really make much more than family doctors

How hard is it to set up shop as a dentist in a big city?

Can a family dr possibly have a similar lifestyle as a dentist while earning a similar salary?

Please let me know what you think
Thanks a lot

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[eklope2000]

Hi everyone,
I have been debating with many friends of mine what profession would suit me best. From what I hear, a dentist has a much more 'predictable' lifestyle than the average MD, such as haviing roughly 9-5 hours, which is something I find very appealing as I am very family oriented. As well many have told me that a dentist on average makes much more money than a family doctor (which is something I would also be intersted in). I always wanted to be a sugeon but cant picture myself being on call so much and going to school untill I'm in my early 30's, so I think I would 'settle' for family dr if thats the path I choose. Dentistry also seems to be riskier in my eyes as a large investment is required upon graduation to establish a practice (ive heard around 150-300k). The last concern of mine is that people tell me that it is very hard to establish yourself as a dentist in a large city since most big cities have too many dentists already, whereas you usually here there is a doctor shortage almost evreywhere.

The reason this is so tough for me is that I could see myself as being very happy doing both. I am not using one as a backup for the other as some do. I truly am intersted in both.

I have spoken with some dr's and dentists and have gotten totally random responses such as 100% be a dentist, 150% be a doctor lol. I dont know what to say about some of them, they all seem to not enjoy doing what their doing which is sad and I dont wanna end up like that.

Could someone please let me know if its correct that general dentists really make much more than family doctors

How hard is it to set up shop as a dentist in a big city?

Can a family dr possibly have a similar lifestyle as a dentist while earning a similar salary?

Please let me know what you think
Thanks a lot

If you like dentistry and medicine equally well, then I think you'll find more money and an easier lifestyle in dentistry. I don't think it's money or lifestyle that makes so many choose medicine over dentistry, but rather the preference for the subject matter/type of work and/or prestige (with medicine fairing quite a bit better in that area.)

 

[Mike59]

Keep this in mind:

You may end up going to a medical school that costs so much that family medicine is not the most ideal career path in the end. I've done the math, and if you owe in excess of $200k, not only would your life as a resident be miserable, your lifestyle would be beyond humble as an FP for at least the first decade out of training.....Not to mention, during training all that loan money will compound and compound until the loan reaches astronomical numbers...If that is the case, I would say do something else cause it ain't worth it (at least to me...)

I don't know anything about dentistry so I can't comment there...

 

[sidewalkman]

As I was once in the same boat as you, I offer my humble opinion....

First, the cost. There are cheap MD schools and expensive MD schools. There are cheap dental schools and expensive dental schools. The FP's and the general dentists I know who went to expensive schools are definately not in the poor house. I don't really worry about it as a barrier to entry.

As for city practice, it's tough to set up shop for doctors, too! This is due to the immense competition in desirable areas, just like docs. Your best bets are to go group or buy out someone's practice, if you really want to practice in a city.

As for $$, I did read somewhere that dentists make more per hour than FP's, peds, and psychiatrists. But not an insane amount more. It's probably about the same.

As for happiness, you'll probably find more unhappy docs out there than dentists, probably due to the past/present/uncertain future of medical compensation.

Spend more time figuring it out. Take a year or two off if you have to. It's not worth investing 4-7 years of your life on a coin flip between two professional schools.

 

[chameleonknight]

Dude, you have dentist written all over you. Go for it!

 

[uclacrewdude]

here are what your priorities should be:

1) whatever you like most
2) whatever youre best at
3) whatever will help you benefit more people
4) whatever pays better

 

[ddmo]

If you would be content doing dentistry, by all means do it. Lots more money per time spent and invested. Orthodontists make bank and work 3 days a week while doing nothing more than checking up to make sure the assistants didn't mess up 90% of the work. I have a friend in dental school because he, "wants to have time to join a country club." To each his own, I personally find mouths gross, and wouldn't want to look at them all day.

 

[ny skindoc]

If you would be content doing dentistry, by all means do it. Lots more money per time spent and invested. Orthodontists make bank and work 3 days a week while doing nothing more than checking up to make sure the assistants didn't mess up 90% of the work. I have a friend in dental school because he, "wants to have time to join a country club." To each his own, I personally find mouths gross, and wouldn't want to look at them all day.

While its true that orthodontists make very big $$ for the time spent (as do most dental specialties) it is very difficult to enter the subspecialties of dentistry.Only a few at the top of the class get into those fellowships.There are many places accross the US where dentists are in very short supply and anyone opening up a general dental practice will do well financially,quickly(various cities and towns in upstate NY are an example).Between the large number of US med graduates,DOs,and IMGs there will be plenty of people to enter primary care residencies and with pressure on fees from HMOs,medicare etc..a pressure which will only intensify-primary care physicians should plan on working hard for their money.The unique skills of dentists,as well as the limited number of grads will make this an attractive field.(there are few international dental grads able to enter the US and no offshore dental school alternatives).Not to mention the ability to go right out into practice after dental school,no 3-5 year residency! Do not choose dentistry unless you are really into it-if you are its a great opportunity..If you're not sure about it, then go to med schoolas it offers more options in terms of specialties and practice arrangements.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Orthodontists make bank and work 3 days a week while doing nothing more than checking up to make sure the assistants didn't mess up 90% of the work.

Endodontists are the big secret of dentistry. They see 5-6 patients a day, at $1000-5000 per patient, and have a typical 30% overhead. Advertised positions for endodontists STRAIGHT out of school typically list the starting salary at $250-300k for the first year (about 40% of production).

But Ortho is good as well, of course.

 

[doctalaughs]

If you think you'll like doing either one, and you are worried about lifestyle go into dentistry.

In medicine you can still have lifestyle in a few specialties but these are ultra competitive (if you think the dental specialties are hard to get into, try matching dermatology, plastic surgery or radiation oncology).

Gluck.

 

[ddmo]

Endodontists are the big secret of dentistry. They see 5-6 patients a day, at $1000-5000 per patient, and have a typical 30% overhead. Advertised positions for endodontists STRAIGHT out of school typically list the starting salary at $250-300k for the first year (about 40% of production).

But Ortho is good as well, of course.

You are so right! My mom sees an Endo guy and complains every time that he charges $1G to do a 30 min. deep cleaning.

 

[Hoya11]

its easier to get into dental school and the life of a dentist does sound awesome. you certainly cant go wrong, but...
you have a much harder time once you are in school compared to being in med school. if you are looking for "lifestyle" careers like this, making over 200k with good hours means you are a dental specialist meaning you completed extra years of training, and were at the very top of your class, or went to harvard or columbia or a school where nearly all of the students specialize.

on the other hand in medical school you can basically walk into a 200k-300k job like anesthesiology or pain management or something like that. Low competition to get into these programs and high income.

so i guess in the end medical school assures you more of this kind of lifestyle if that is what you are looking for. Dental school will allow it but its not over when u walk in the door u have to earn it in class. And the money isnt an issue either way in my opinion

this used to be a debate to me too, i was going to go dental but got pulled off of the wailist at the last second to MD school and i am glad it happened.. im thinking about anesthesiology

 

[toofache32]

In medicine you can still have lifestyle in a few specialties but these are ultra competitive (if you think the dental specialties are hard to get into, try matching dermatology, plastic surgery or radiation oncology).

This sounds like a comparison made on un-informed hype. There are only 9 dental specialties (vs. dozens of medical) and most programs only takes 1-3 applicants each year, depending on the specialty. For Endo, there are only 51 programs in the country, and Ortho only has only a few more. This is why only the top 10-15% of each dental class have a chance to specialize, while 100% of med students specialize.

My med school classmates worry about "where" they will match, while back when I was in dental school the question was "will" we match. Many dental school grads work in private practice for several years while trying to get into endo or ortho.

 

[toofache32]

The ADA puts out a yearly report on dental income by region. I saw one from a few years ago online, but now I can't find the link. Around 1999 marked the first year general dentists income was higher than MD internists, pediatricians, and family practitioners. These figures were taken as averages, and we all know that practices vary. One key point that stuck out of that report was that the average dentist works 3.5 days per week, and still outpaced primary care MD's on income.

Here's another intersting cut-and-paste from the ADA website:

"General practitioners in the United States now make an average of $173,140 per year according to the latest report published from the ADA?s 2002 Survey of Dental Practice. According to ?Income from the Private Practice of Dentistry,? specialists earned an average of $275,270 in 2001. Expenses were 60.5% of general practitioners? total gross billings. For specialists, this percentage was 55.6%. The entire report, which can be purchased from the ADA Survey Center (catalog number 5I02), includes data on dentists? income by region and years since graduation, and also includes data on the total billings of dentists in private practice."

That came from:

http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/publications_newreports.asp#income

 

[twinklz]

My med school classmates worry about "where" they will match, while back when I was in dental school the question was "will" we match. Many dental school grads work in private practice for several years while trying to get into endo or ortho.

Just as a point of clarification, as a med student you HAVE to match somewhere before you can practice. Matching isn't limited to derm or ortho; you also have to match into family medicine and peds. So, yes, the vast majority of students match somewhere just not necessarily in their choice of specialty or locale.

 

[ny skindoc]

This sounds like a comparison made on un-informed hype. There are only 9 dental specialties (vs. dozens of medical) and most programs only takes 1-3 applicants each year, depending on the specialty. For Endo, there are only 51 programs in the country, and Ortho only has only a few more. This is why only the top 10-15% of each dental class have a chance to specialize, while 100% of med students specialize.

My med school classmates worry about "where" they will match, while back when I was in dental school the question was "will" we match. Many dental school grads work in private practice for several years while trying to get into endo or ortho.

While all med students end up in one field or another few are able to end up in the highly competive-most"desirable" specialties.Going into IM,FP,Peds is what most med grads do and is considered general primary care.These fields may be followed by a specialty fellowship but are not in themselves competitive or highly lucrative "specialties" as were described for dentistry.All dental school graduates who pass their boards can go out and practice dentistry-somthing medical graduates cannot do,they must complete 3-5 years of a generally miserable,not high paying residency in order to practice anything.The question here is if you were to be in general medical practice (IM or FP)versus General Dentistry which is better.Overall I think dentistry wins out financially and in terms of hours,stress,workload,malpractice etc.Of course if one were to get into Derm,Rads,Ophthalmalogy it would be a different story.

 

[Philo Beddo]

While all med students end up in one field or another few are able to end up in the highly competive-most"desirable" specialties.Going into IM,FP,Peds is what most med grads do and is considered general primary care.These fields may be followed by a specialty fellowship but are not in themselves competitive or highly lucrative "specialties" as were described for dentistry.All dental school graduates who pass their boards can go out and practice dentistry-somthing medical graduates cannot do.The question here is if you were to be in general medical practice (IM or FP)versus General Dentistry which is better.Overall I think dentistry wins out financially and in terms of hours,stress,workload,malpractice etc.Of course if one were to get into Derm,Rads,Ophthalmalogy it would be a different story.

You hit it on the nose.

I just finished IM residency 2 months ago. I'm a hospitalist now. I only work 12 nights/month and make a competitive hospitalist wage ($150k-ish). Not bad. Better than residency at any rate.

 

[ItsGavinC]

making over 200k with good hours means you are a dental specialist meaning you completed extra years of training, and were at the very top of your class, or went to harvard or columbia or a school where nearly all of the students specialize.

Not really. The average general dentist that has been practicing for 5 years or more will bring home greater than $200k and work 25-30 hours a week.

There really isn't a dental specialty (or general dentist) that is burdened with poor hours. Oral surgery is probably the most labor intensive, but it doesn't have to be. That really depends on the procedures that are done. Lots of intense surgical procedures could mandate greater access to the hospital or rotating trauma call, etc. But there are also many, many oral surgeons who only pull 3rd molars and work 9-4, three or four days a week.

Sure, some dentists work their tails off but 9 times out of 10 they don't have to, but rather choose to.

And of course, everything I've stated are generalizations and there will be outlying plots of data on both ends of the spectrum. Enough from me now.

 

[gingernrum]

I know oral surgeons working 3 days a wek pulling in well over 300k

 

[Hoya11]

i think you might as well try your hand at getting into an allopathic medical school with a dental school attached to it. most of the time the dental students are in the same classes as med students anyways. so this way, you can see whether or not you like med school, and if you decide to become a dentist after a year say, then you can transfer to the dental school no harm done. when i first found out that i got into gtown i thought that this might be my plan, they have no dental school tho. but anyway now that i am started i REALLY like med school. anatomy lab and talking to all of the various MDs who give our lectures about clinical cases has really made me feel comfortable and excited about what i am getting into.

 

[toofache32]

i think you might as well try your hand at getting into an allopathic medical school with a dental school attached to it. most of the time the dental students are in the same classes as med students anyways. so this way, you can see whether or not you like med school, and if you decide to become a dentist after a year say, then you can transfer to the dental school no harm done.

How in the world can you transfer into a dental school, when you were never in a dental school to begin with? You have to go through the standard application process the same as everyone, then start at the beginning just like everyone. I'm not sure that having both schools under the same university umbrella would affect things.

 

[sidewalkman]

i think you might as well try your hand at getting into an allopathic medical school with a dental school attached to it. most of the time the dental students are in the same classes as med students anyways. so this way, you can see whether or not you like med school, and if you decide to become a dentist after a year say, then you can transfer to the dental school no harm done.

That's a verrrrry risky approach. The matching dental school may not accept you, forcing you to go to another dental school, and IF you even get in elsewhere, you may be forced to retake a year or even two. If that happens, you've pissed away tens of thousands of dollars in tuition and lost income on a decision you should have made before entering professional school. Why take the economic risk when you don't have to?

 

[Dr.SpongeBobDDS]

sidewalkman is right; you can't just transfer between programs. Even in schools where the dental students are taking the same classes as the med students they still have their own "dental" courses in addition to the medical curriculum.

In any case, I'd forget about the money aspect as both fields are VERY well compensated. As another poster already said, what it comes down to is what you want. Medicine will provide you with a greater degree of prestige in your community but tends to be a very life-consuming career. As a dentist you will always be "just a dentist" but will have lots of time for family, hobbies, synagogue/church, politics, etc... Which is more important to you?

With the exception of surgery (and since lifestyle seems to be somewhat important to you I'm sure that's not on the radar ) the two fields have very different day to day functions. From what little I've seen (and that's darn little) it seems that the fun part of medicine is in the diagnosis; treatment is often simply following a protocol developed by others. In dentistry, the diagnosis is usually the easy part, and the fun part comes in developing and carrying out a treatment plan. To grossly oversimplify: medicine is for thinkers, dentistry is for doers.

I think you would be well served to spend some time shadowing both a physician and a dentist and see which appeals most to you.

 

[uclacrewdude]

yeah, but medicine is outright cooler than dentistry. name a tv show about dentists.

 

[toofache32]

yeah, but medicine is outright cooler than dentistry. name a tv show about dentists.

Profound...dude.

 

[ToxicFugu]

i haven't read all the posts, but after reading the OP, i would say definitely go to dentistry. if i were as fascinated by dentristy as i am by medicine, and i didn't mind starting inside mouths, i'd be a dentist without question. far less stress, far less time. less liability too. (you can actually raise a functional family!)

also, people might argue that doctors get to "help people." well, if you've ever had a cavity bad enough to need a root canal, you can testify to the incredible relief that dentists provide through their services.

also, there is always the option to pursue oral surgery (MD, DDS) after dental school. Granted, it is not an easy route at all, but if you find you want the "MD prestige," you can work your butt off to get that.

let us know what you decide.

 

[angelbeige]

I know this is 5 years later after the Op, but I'm curious as to what happened in the end

 

[halekulani]

if money and lifestyle is the difference between choosing a career in medicine vs. dentistry, do dentistry.

medicine is for masochists.

 

[unsung]

sidewalkman is right; you can't just transfer between programs. Even in schools where the dental students are taking the same classes as the med students they still have their own "dental" courses in addition to the medical curriculum.

In any case, I'd forget about the money aspect as both fields are VERY well compensated. As another poster already said, what it comes down to is what you want. Medicine will provide you with a greater degree of prestige in your community but tends to be a very life-consuming career. As a dentist you will always be "just a dentist" but will have lots of time for family, hobbies, synagogue/church, politics, etc... Which is more important to you?

With the exception of surgery (and since lifestyle seems to be somewhat important to you I'm sure that's not on the radar ) the two fields have very different day to day functions. From what little I've seen (and that's darn little) it seems that the fun part of medicine is in the diagnosis; treatment is often simply following a protocol developed by others. In dentistry, the diagnosis is usually the easy part, and the fun part comes in developing and carrying out a treatment plan. To grossly oversimplify: medicine is for thinkers, dentistry is for doers.

I think you would be well served to spend some time shadowing both a physician and a dentist and see which appeals most to you.

Huh. This is actually a good way to put it.

Same reason that surgery doesn't really appeal to me is the reason dentistry doesn't appeal to me. I have decent dexterity, but what is really "fun" for me is the whole puzzle-solving nature of diagnosis. (Hence my interest in psych/neuro).

Staring into a person's mouth all day and constantly working with my hands (in an unpleasant way... this isn't pottery-making lol) is a completely unbearable notion to me.

Even surgery is more appealing.

 

[derspiegel]

Nice gravedigging lads

 

[sunset823]

on the other hand in medical school you can basically walk into a 200k-300k job like anesthesiology or pain management or something like that. Low competition to get into these programs and high income.

The nice thing about resurrecting ancient threads is you get to see how...quaint...people's thoughts were back then...low competition *snort* 200-300k *double snort*

To whoever bumped this, the OP is long gone

and teeth are nasty, looking at them all day, every day, for 40+ years, ewww...

 

[toofache32]

T....and teeth are nasty, looking at them all day, every day, for 40+ years, ewww...

True dat. Who wouldn't prefer a&&holes instead?

 

[weightyheart]

True dat. Who wouldn't prefer a&&holes instead?

graduate yet?

 

[Mace1370]

here are what your priorities should be:

1) whatever you like most
2) whatever youre best at
3) whatever will help you benefit more people
4) whatever pays better

Let me fix that for you:

1) whatever you like most
2) whatever fits your desired time commitment
3) whatever pays better
4) everything else

 

[sestamibi]

general medicine vs general dentistry? dentistry wins out

sub-specialty medicine vs sub-specialty dentistry? medicine wins out. I can't speak with 100% certainty how much demand there is for orthodontists and endodontists (or perhaps they make so much per patient they don't really need the patient volume) but if you're going to compare it with something like dermatology, dermatology wins out. Money is probably equivalent, lifestyle is probably equivalent, but dermatology is a booming business everywhere (who doesn't have skin problems?) whereas there are people that go their whole lives without seeing an orthodontist or endodontist or OMFS

getting into said field, of course, is the caveat

 

[sestamibi]

.

error, delete

 

[yang26]

Hi everyone,
I have been debating with many friends of mine what profession would suit me best. From what I hear, a dentist has a much more 'predictable' lifestyle than the average MD, such as haviing roughly 9-5 hours, which is something I find very appealing as I am very family oriented. As well many have told me that a dentist on average makes much more money than a family doctor (which is something I would also be intersted in). I always wanted to be a sugeon but cant picture myself being on call so much and going to school untill I'm in my early 30's, so I think I would 'settle' for family dr if thats the path I choose. Dentistry also seems to be riskier in my eyes as a large investment is required upon graduation to establish a practice (ive heard around 150-300k). The last concern of mine is that people tell me that it is very hard to establish yourself as a dentist in a large city since most big cities have too many dentists already, whereas you usually here there is a doctor shortage almost evreywhere.

The reason this is so tough for me is that I could see myself as being very happy doing both. I am not using one as a backup for the other as some do. I truly am intersted in both.

I have spoken with some dr's and dentists and have gotten totally random responses such as 100% be a dentist, 150% be a doctor lol. I dont know what to say about some of them, they all seem to not enjoy doing what their doing which is sad and I dont wanna end up like that.

Could someone please let me know if its correct that general dentists really make much more than family doctors

How hard is it to set up shop as a dentist in a big city?

Can a family dr possibly have a similar lifestyle as a dentist while earning a similar salary?

Please let me know what you think
Thanks a lot










I have just about the same problem here ... I was thinking about becoming a Prosthodontist or a Neurosurgeon. I really am stuck on this one. I cannot decide which is best for me. I know that I want to be happy with whatever I do, but I can picture myself in both a Prosthodontist and a Neurosurgeon's shoes. I love the human body! I am also a very family oriented person. My parents are pushing for a dentist instead of a doctor because they say that I would probably not have to work as hard. Really, I just want to do whichever will make me happy but now I do not know what will make me happy anymore. I am really stuck and could use some help and advice. I would appreciate it VERY MUCH if you all let me know what you think!
HELP!

And Thanks

 

[aloysious]

I'm one of those guys that went to dental school because it was obvious med school was not going to let me it.
The curriculum in dental school was no fun. I hated virtually every minute of it. There's all that science , which is virtually the same as med school, then there's all that dental stuff to learn, so it was pretty darn difficult for me.
I've got an established general practice now, and I have to say, dentistry's been pretty darn good to me.
I see pts. 4 days a week, 9-5 with an hour for lunch, then Fri. mornings I'll go in and do a little admin.
What I like least is dealing with staff problems from time to time, but anybody having their own practice has to deal with that.
The money has been good, too. More than I ever imagined I would earn.
I've made business mistakes along the way, like anybody would, but that's mostly ironed out now.
Also, I've worked with the military early in my career where I had to be on call. Being on call absolutely SUCKS ! So the lifestyle is pretty good.
On the other hand, I do know some conscientious dentists that have never turned the corner financially, and probably never will. Not sure why.
As far as prestige and "coolness", I don't care about that at all. If I could work 9-5 as a plumber and earn what I do, that would be A OK with me. Actually, I might like that better. No staff problems.

 

[MomDMD]

Like all dentist posters above, I have to agree that the lifestyle of the dentist is very good. I'm a pediatric dentist who works 2 days a week (9-4:30) and my husband who's a prosthodontist works 4 days a week (8:30-4:30). We do belong to a country club and he golfs almost every day except for when it rains. Where as his cardio-thoracic surgeon friend works 60 hrs a week and rarely gets to see his family or golf. Again, I'm sure he's bringing in big $$$ doing it but we're doing pretty OK ourselves.

 

[mrres]

Ok either you have always wanted to be a dentist, then that's great. Or you can't hack it in a med school so you take the easy route. I personally think being a dentist would be boring!!!

Another thing not all physicians do it for the money, many do it for the fact they love helping people, and there are so many different ways you can go and what you can do, the list of feilds is to long to list.
While being a dentist you pretty much fill cavities, crowns, some root canals etc. Sounds boring as hell to me.

Just face it M.D.'s & D.O.'s it where it's at, it's the top!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ZS4]

What I've been hearing for years is that doctors have a safer future because they have more specialities and opportunities. But what I think I'm hearing is that they will have more opportunity for a job. By weighing the opportunity cost, and probably the longer path to starting a business as a doctor, I'm thinking Dentistry is better for me.

 

[DocJL]

Ok either you have always wanted to be a dentist, then that's great. Or you can't hack it in a med school so you take the easy route. I personally think being a dentist would be boring!!!

Another thing not all physicians do it for the money, many do it for the fact they love helping people, and there are so many different ways you can go and what you can do, the list of feilds is to long to list.
While being a dentist you pretty much fill cavities, crowns, some root canals etc. Sounds boring as hell to me.

Just face it M.D.'s & D.O.'s it where it's at, it's the top!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this is pretty funny.

you're a DO dude. did you choose a DO program? or were your grades not good enough to get into an MD program? (meaning they probably weren't good enough to get into a DDS program) do a little research on the average entering GPA for dental school versus DO programs.

you're also family practice. so I doubt you finished your DO program in the top 10% of your class. we definitely need more family practice doctors, and you will probably make a difference someday. and you will be contributing to life and death decisions. BUT you aren't exactly gonna be a trauma surgeon or neurosurgeon or cardiothoracic surgeon.

just a few thoughts as you obviously look down apon dentistry.

you may be surprised to find that "can't hack it in med school" isn't very accurate. I've spoken to several dual degree MD/DDS oral and maxillofacial surgeons, and every single one of them has told me dental school is harder than medical school. subjective? of course.

for the record, I do believe medicine is the more "noble" of the 2 professions.

I've also found the only physician's who seem to have a chip on their shoulder and try to put down dentistry are those in the lower paying specialties, like family practice. just an observation.

and anybody who thinks dental school is "taking the easy route" is in for a rude awakening if they should ever get into dental school.

and BTW Mres, you misspelled "PHYSICIAN"

allow me to copy and paste what you wrote: D.O. Resident Phyisican, Second Year. Family Medicine.

 

[JaggerPlate]

this is pretty funny.

you're a DO dude. did you choose a DO program? or were your grades not good enough to get into an MD program? (meaning they probably weren't good enough to get into a DDS program) do a little research on the average entering GPA for dental school versus DO programs.

you're also family practice. so I doubt you finished your DO program in the top 10% of your class.

Ahh, taking the high road and utilizing mature, objective, related arguments to make your point. Always a good thing when you feel the other person in the argument is being biased and unfair. When you find a converter between the pre-medical science GPA versus the pre-dental science GPA and a similar mechanism for converting and comparing DAT/MCAT scores, then we could probably have an objective discussion.

As another anecdote to add to your pile, at my undergrad, the rates of acceptance into dental school were astronomically higher than those for people getting into medical school (both DO and MD), and the average GPAs seemed quite a bit lower. Most people considered it 'easier' in general. Does this hold any validity? Of course not, it's comparing apples to oranges. Almost everyone I know who went dental versus medicine wanted to, and wouldn't have gone the other way for love or money. It's a silly pre-graduate school notion that dental students are medical school rejects, one is more prestigious than the other, one school is 'harder' than the other, one profession is 'smarter' than the other, etc.

As a practicing dentist, according to your status, I'd expect that you'd be mature enough to see this and act accordingly.

 

[DocJL]

Jagger,

I apologize if I have overgeneralized or offended. I was replying to a specific comment in a specific post.

I have many friends who are physicians, and even more patients who are physicians. and having worked with physicians very closely while in the military, and as a patient (both myself and my family) I have found the vast majority of physicians very pleasant to work with on all levels. I was referring to a small number of physicians, again always in the lower paying specialties, seeming to like to denigrate the dental profession.

I honestly never had heard of a DO until I joined the military, they are not very common where I grew up, and it was only when I asked MD's what the difference was, did many of them tell me DO's have typically been perceived as having lower admission statistics than those gaining admission to MD programs.

I would point out, however, that for the vast majority of dental schools, the undergraduate classes required for admission are virtually identical, if not completely identical, as they were for the Dental/Medical school I attended. and IS there such a thing as a "pre-dental" versus "pre-med" curriculum? I still smile when I hear a college student say they are majoring in "pre-med" or "pre-dental". you cannot obtain a degree in either. and yes I had to suffer through the same year of Gen Chem, year of Organic Chem, year of physics, and the assorted calculus, biology, zoology and other classes you had to.......

I can't comment on converting or comparing MCAT to DAT scores.

However according to the American Dental Association:

In 2008 there were just over 108,000 applications for just over 4,900 1st year dental school slots in the US. The average GPA of those admitted in 2008 (the last year data is available from the ADA) was 3.54 overall, with a 3.48 science GPA.

does that sound like it's easy to get into dental school? honestly?

and according to this link:
http://www.etsu.edu/cas/mpa/documents/Pre-Osteopathic_Med_3_Complete_8-31-09.pdf

In 2008 the average GPA of those admitted to DO programs in 2008 was 3.39 with a 3.24 science GPA.

 

[Dr Oops]

Jagger,


I can't comment on converting or comparing MCAT to DAT scores.

I can MCAT>DAT.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Jagger,

I apologize if I have overgeneralized or offended. I was replying to a specific comment in a specific post.

You're fine ... I can definitely handle it. Also, I see what you're saying, and I agree that it's frustrating when people generalize, especially when comparing dentistry and medical school admissions, which are really two pretty different things in my opinion. Not because one's harder, not because one's easier, or most prestigious or whatever else, but simply because people who want to be dentists work to go to dental school, and those who want to be docs go to medical school.

Frankly, I don't think I've ever seen a med school reject who then went to dental school. Both are wildly competitive and you'd, in my opinion, just want to simply be a 'Dr' if you just applied both and went wherever. It's a silly, insulting notion to try to put one down based upon something regarding the other - apples and oranges.

I have many friends who are physicians, and even more patients who are physicians. and having worked with physicians very closely while in the military, and as a patient (both myself and my family) I have found the vast majority of physicians very pleasant to work with on all levels. I was referring to a small number of physicians, again always in the lower paying specialties, seeming to like to denigrate the dental profession.

I've never head a doc, resident, med student, etc belittle a dentist for any reason. In fact, if anything I've heard them say the dentists made a good decision and they'd really consider it if they were at that stage in their life again. I truthfully don't know why dental would even pop into the mind of a group of average FP guys hanging out or something.

I honestly never had heard of a DO until I joined the military, they are not very common where I grew up, and it was only when I asked MD's what the difference was, did many of them tell me DO's have typically been perceived as having lower admission statistics than those gaining admission to MD programs.

Well, I can't say much for those MDs explanation of DOs, but if you're really interested, we could have that discussion at another time. However, I think certain physicians saying negative generalizations about DOs (which honestly I haven't really seen beyond the pre-med level - most docs seem too busy and tunnel vision-ish to give a damn about anything outside their practice) is just as silly and pointless as someone belittling dentists based on med school standards.

I would point out, however, that for the vast majority of dental schools, the undergraduate classes required for admission are virtually identical, if not completely identical, as they were for the Dental/Medical school I attended. and IS there such a thing as a "pre-dental" versus "pre-med" curriculum? I still smile when I hear a college student say they are majoring in "pre-med" or "pre-dental". you cannot obtain a degree in either. and yes I had to suffer through the same year of Gen Chem, year of Organic Chem, year of physics, and the assorted calculus, biology, zoology and other classes you had to.......

Mine was a huge undergrad and had different tracks. Similar, but not identical.

I can't comment on converting or comparing MCAT to DAT scores.

It's probably because they don't compute/convert. Two totally different tests. Anecdotally, I've heard the MCAT is much harder. Is it true? Who knows. Better yet, who cares?

However according to the American Dental Association:

In 2008 there were just over 108,000 applications for just over 4,900 1st year dental school slots in the US. The average GPA of those admitted in 2008 (the last year data is available from the ADA) was 3.54 overall, with a 3.48 science GPA.

does that sound like it's easy to get into dental school? honestly?

I don't think dental school or getting into dental school is easy.

and according to this link:
http://www.etsu.edu/cas/mpa/documents/Pre-Osteopathic_Med_3_Complete_8-31-09.pdf

In 2008 the average GPA of those admitted to DO programs in 2008 was 3.39 with a 3.24 science GPA.

Well, according to this link (from AACOMAS, the DO applicant service):

For the 2009 application cycle:

Average GPA: 3.48
Average sci-GPA: 3.35
Average non-sci: 3.58

http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/2011cib/2011cib-p12-15.pdf

According to wiki:

2009 had an overall GPA of 3.54 and a science GPA of 3.46 (dental)

So 3.5/3.4 compared to 3.5/3.5 on average and not taking into account the fact that I'm fairly sure there are different tracks at different universities??? Seems pretty comparable.

 

[marcdds]

Very interesting.

 

[Slack3r]

However according to the American Dental Association:

In 2008 there were just over 108,000 applications for just over 4,900 1st year dental school slots in the US. The average GPA of those admitted in 2008 (the last year data is available from the ADA) was 3.54 overall, with a 3.48 science GPA.

does that sound like it's easy to get into dental school? honestly?

and according to this link:
http://www.etsu.edu/cas/mpa/documents/Pre-Osteopathic_Med_3_Complete_8-31-09.pdf

In 2008 the average GPA of those admitted to DO programs in 2008 was 3.39 with a 3.24 science GPA.

As a CURRENT dentist, pointing at the GPAs for dental school currently hardly speaks to your credentials. I believe the averages used to be MUCH lower...

I can MCAT>DAT.

Seconded. I took both. I scored in ~89% on the MCAT after 3 months of studying. I studied for 2 weeks for the DAT and scored in the 99.9% on their verbal section, with mid 90th percentiles on the other sections. The DAT is a joke: it's simply rote memorization. No critical thinking. No synthesis of information. No passages to read and analyze. Every question boiled down to: have you seen this random bio/chem fact before? The MCAT is quite a bit more difficult.

 

[DocJL]

As a CURRENT dentist, pointing at the GPAs for dental school currently hardly speaks to your credentials. I believe the averages used to be MUCH lower...



Valid point, although greatly exaggerated, and it also fails to account for the fact that ALL GPA's for ALL college students were, on average, much lower in the past. I believe average GPA's for new dental students were about .1 to .2 lower when I entered. However, average college GPA's nationwide were also more than .2 lower at that time. Is this because todays students are "smarter"? There is a well documented trend of grade inflation in this country, at ALL school levels. I would say the academic "quality" of all pre-professional students is similar, what has possibly changed is that as dentistry has become more lucrative relative to other fields, applicants have followed the money.

Look into this, there are many links and studies available:

www.gradeinflation.com


I was responding to Jagger's assertion that: "As another anecdote to add to your pile, at my undergrad, the rates of acceptance into dental school were astronomically higher than those for people getting into medical school (both DO and MD), and the average GPAs seemed quite a bit lower."

His reply actually contradicted his own assertion, as he actually proved my point that successful dental applicants had HIGHER GPA's than successful DO applicants, by as much as a tenth of a GPA point, which for a single class has little statistical significance, but for 4 years of university instruction has a HUGE statistical significance.

In Jaggers words:

"Well, according to this link (from AACOMAS, the DO applicant service):

For the 2009 application cycle:

Average GPA: 3.48
Average sci-GPA: 3.35
Average non-sci: 3.58

http://www.aacom.org/resources/books...cib-p12-15.pdf

According to wiki:

2009 had an overall GPA of 3.54 and a science GPA of 3.46 (dental)

So 3.5/3.4 compared to 3.5/3.5 on average and not taking into account the fact that I'm fairly sure there are different tracks at different universities??? Seems pretty comparable."



So - average overall GPA in 2009 was 3.54 Dental vs. 3.48 DO
average science GPA 3.46 Dental vs. 3.35 DO

Does that seem like there would be an "astronomical" difference in rates of acceptance and GPA's of successful applicants? I wonder if he would have characterized these GPA's as "pretty comparable" had the entering class of DO students held higher GPA's than the entering class of DDS students........

And WHY are you taking both tests (DAT and MCAT)? Are you that uninformed on the differences in the two professions, that you plan to apply for both? Apparently you too, are "following the money".

 

[Meibomian SxN]

Ok either you have always wanted to be a dentist, then that's great. Or you can't hack it in a med school so you take the easy route. I personally think being a dentist would be boring!!!

Another thing not all physicians do it for the money, many do it for the fact they love helping people, and there are so many different ways you can go and what you can do, the list of feilds is to long to list.
While being a dentist you pretty much fill cavities, crowns, some root canals etc. Sounds boring as hell to me.

Just face it M.D.'s & D.O.'s it where it's at, it's the top!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After seeing the latest Jersey Shore episode of Ronnie having to get his bleeding rectum examined by the Family Physician, I would most DEFINITELY pass off rims or teeth ANYDAY!