Does AMA still have the same "no" policy on MLP creep?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Restart13

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
176
Reaction score
57
After giving it some thought, I almost think AMA should have some sort of backup plan (soon to be main plan) in place when MLP, specifically Nurse Practitioner's have the right to practice independently. You can argue all you want about MLP not having the knowledge of an equivalent doctor (which I agree with) but I think the bottom line ($$) is the driving factor here. Employers get a cheaper insurance, HMO style insurance plan, to have the first step in the healthcare process be a NP.

Unless something drastically changes the way healthcare works in the US, you can tell me how right I was in 5-10 years from now.

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
NPs probably will be doing surgery in a few years. I think probably within the next decade DNP will be considered = to MD and DO (legally speaking) just because they are seen as very cheap (by politicians) and politically powerful enough to make it happen. Only thing that will stop it from happening or more likely just slow it down is malpractice lawyers running the cash register in the more left-wing states as problems arise from fully autonomous practice in most or every specialty. That is just a prediction, but to answer your question I don't think that there is any group out there that opposes DNP autonomy save with a few small specialty groups.

PAs probably will not gain autonomy any time soon but as DNPs gain full autonomy and practice rights, I can see DNPs overseeing ("collaborating") with PAs because once it is accepted that DNP = MD = DO, there is no reason why DNPs can't oversee PAs.
 
I can see DNPs overseeing ("collaborating") with PAs because once it is accepted that DNP = MD = DO, there is no reason why DNPs can't oversee PAs.
Except that no self-respecting PA would ever utter this phrase " Jane Doe, DNP is my supervising/collaborating physician". won't ever happen. PAs are licensed by the medical board and the laws specifically say we work with and for physicians.
what I think is probably in the works somewhere is a PA to DNP bridge program specifically marketed to those PAs who want to run an outpt primary care practice without a doc involved. Would probably be something like a yr part time for folks who were former nurses and something like 2 years part time for folks who need to get the RN first. No clinicals would be required (as PA clinicals already are vastly superior to np clinicals), just a few "nursing theory courses" and a "capstone project".
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Except that no self-respecting PA would ever utter this phrase " Jane Doe, DNP is my supervising/collaborating physician". won't ever happen. PAs are licensed by the medical board and the laws specifically say we work with and for physicians.

You are right about your generation, but are you so sure the same can be said of recent graduates from PA school? I imagine they will probably care about as much as the recent MD grads care about DNPs achieving full practice autonomy (which is to say not very much at all). In fact, at our program many believe that NPs are just as qualified in every way as their "collaborating" physicians.

what I think is probably in the works somewhere is a PA to DNP bridge program specifically marketed to those PAs who want to run an outpt primary care practice without a doc involved. Would probably be something like a yr part time for folks who were former nurses and something like 2 years part time for folks who need to get the RN first. No clinicals would be required (as PA clinicals already are vastly superior to np clinicals), just a few "nursing theory courses" and a "capstone project".

Maybe, but if you talk to DNPs they seem to think their training is far superior to PAs. I heard a DNP student just last week at stupid diversity seminar our school forced us to go to explain that difference between PAs and NPs is that (paraphrasing here) "PAs will never be able to practice on their own" whereas DNPs really don't need any collaboration. The nursing student across the table from her then insisted that post-RN training for the DNP is "practically like med school."
So like I said this is all just my predictions based on observation. I am only a student and readily admit I don't have the real world working experience that you do. But these are just observations I've made since we have something like 3-4 DNP and nursing programs nearby and in our hospitals.
 
You are right about your generation, but are you so sure the same can be said of recent graduates from PA school? I imagine they will probably care about as much as the recent MD grads care about DNPs achieving full practice autonomy (which is to say not very much at all). In fact, at our program many believe that NPs are just as qualified in every way as their "collaborating" physicians.



Maybe, but if you talk to DNPs they seem to think their training is far superior to PAs. I heard a DNP student just last week at stupid diversity seminar our school forced us to go to explain that difference between PAs and NPs is that (paraphrasing here) "PAs will never be able to practice on their own" whereas DNPs really don't need any collaboration. The nursing student across the table from her then insisted that post-RN training for the DNP is "practically like med school."
So like I said this is all just my predictions based on observation. I am only a student and readily admit I don't have the real world working experience that you do. But these are just observations I've made since we have something like 3-4 DNP and nursing programs nearby and in our hospitals.

So a person without any experience in medical school or nurse practitioner school is saying that they are the same :thinking:
 
The only way I can see DNP = MD/DO is primary care only. Other specialties I think have nothing to worry about. Just thought I'd like to point that out. Besides that, DNPs are NOT equal to MD/DO by any means. Not sure why PAs are being compared to NPs, as that's a whole other topic in itself.

My whole point was that in increasingly more states the NP/DNP agenda is being pushed to allow independent practice. What does the future hold for PCPs? In the foreseeable future, I don't think it's too hard to imagine independent DNP private practices that literally undercut PCP practices. Does AMA have a plan for this (if it does happen)?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
The only way I can see DNP = MD/DO is primary care only. Other specialties I think have nothing to worry about. Just thought I'd like to point that out. Besides that, DNPs are NOT equal to MD/DO by any means. Not sure why PAs are being compared to NPs, as that's a whole other topic in itself.

My whole point was that in increasingly more states the NP/DNP agenda is being pushed to allow independent practice. What does the future hold for PCPs? In the foreseeable future, I don't think it's too hard to imagine independent DNP private practices that literally undercut PCP practices. Does AMA have a plan for this (if it does happen)?
You can't concede on any aspect of encroachment. Once primary care falls, they will come for the specialists.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
You can't concede on any aspect of encroachment. Once primary care falls, they will come for the specialists.

I disagree. No matter what, I don't think a DNP/PA or anyone will be able to practice independently in any subspecialty of internal med as well as be in the OR doing surgeries among others. Primary care is unique because that is where the highest demand is, and you can always make the argument that the bread and butter cases don't require a doctor oversight to do. If something is serious they can refer out.
 
Here's a possible concession I thought off the top of my head that would a compromise for physicians. Allow DNPs to practice independently within a doctors practice. That way if the DNP was unsure of something the referral would be inhouse. That was literally off the top of my head and has many flaws but you have to think outside the box IMO. Or like I said earlier, at least have some sort of backup plan.
 
I disagree. No matter what, I don't think a DNP/PA or anyone will be able to practice independently in any subspecialty of internal med as well as be in the OR doing surgeries among others. Primary care is unique because that is where the highest demand is, and you can always make the argument that the bread and butter cases don't require a doctor oversight to do. If something is serious they can refer out.
Give an inch and they will take a mile.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Here's a possible concession I thought off the top of my head that would a compromise for physicians. Allow DNPs to practice independently within a doctors practice. That way if the DNP was unsure of something the referral would be inhouse. That was literally off the top of my head and has many flaws but you have to think outside the box IMO. Or like I said earlier, at least have some sort of backup plan.
Paradox.
 
I disagree. No matter what, I don't think a DNP/PA or anyone will be able to practice independently in any subspecialty of internal med as well as be in the OR doing surgeries among others. Primary care is unique because that is where the highest demand is, and you can always make the argument that the bread and butter cases don't require a doctor oversight to do. If something is serious they can refer out.
Dude there are some hospitals out there that hire solely CRNAs without any anesthesiologists on board. It's not only confined to primary care.

When in doubt, money talks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Primary care is the most difficult to do because it's so broad. There's so much to know and it would be pretty terrible to have it be taken over by nps. I can only imagine the number of unnecessary tests and poorly thought out referrals that would arise from that situation. Just see what happens when a mid level does a consult. Half the time they don't even address the issue you sent them for. I mean damn I had a patient with bacterial endocarditis from a broken tooth and the np in the ed sent them up with a cardiac exam that said s1 s2 rrr no mrg. This dude had a holosystolic murmur radiating to the axilla that my first year medical student could hear. Good enough noctoring makes me fear for the future
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
I disagree. No matter what, I don't think a DNP/PA or anyone will be able to practice independently in any subspecialty of internal med as well as be in the OR doing surgeries among others. Primary care is unique because that is where the highest demand is, and you can always make the argument that the bread and butter cases don't require a doctor oversight to do. If something is serious they can refer out.

Please peruse the following:
http://www.upmc.com/healthcare-prof...post-graduate-surgical-residency-program.aspx
http://residency.slhn.org/Advanced-Practitioner/Trauma-Critical-Care-PA-NP
http://whsc.emory.edu/home/education/critical_care/np_pa_post_grad_res/index.html

I'm not even including the programs that train NP "Dermatologists" and "Gastroenterologists"
http://www.lahey.org/Departments_an...e_Practitioner_Fellowship_in_Dermatology.aspx
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/gast...ng/nurse_practitioner_fellowship_program.html

And here's an interesting thread on SDN talking about GI at Hopkins:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...ull-be-sharing-scopes-with-np-fellows.865041/

And if you haven't had enough steam coming out your ears yet:
http://nurse-practitioners-and-phys...Journey-to-Credentialing-for-Colonoscopy.aspx
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Primary care is the most difficult to do because it's so broad. There's so much to know and it would be pretty terrible to have it be taken over by nps. I can only imagine the number of unnecessary tests and poorly thought out referrals that would arise from that situation. Just see what happens when a mid level does a consult. Half the time they don't even address the issue you sent them for. I mean damn I had a patient with bacterial endocarditis from a broken tooth and the np in the ed sent them up with a cardiac exam that said s1 s2 rrr no mrg. This dude had a holosystolic murmur radiating to the axilla that my first year medical student could hear. Good enough noctoring makes me fear for the future
I will say this. If noctoring does happen in the future, lawyers will have a field day. With independent practice comes responsibility.
 
Dude there are some hospitals out there that hire solely CRNAs without any anesthesiologists on board. It's not only confined to primary care.

When in doubt, money talks.

Of course, but playing the devil's advocate with a super low mortality rate, an anesthesiologist isn't always needed for the simpler cases. Alternatively, you will always need an anesthesiologists for complicated cases. I think the point being is that anesthesia is threatened by losing simple cases to CRNAs, instead of actually losing outright as compared to NPs and PCPs. And for the rare simple cases that do go bad, hopefully the CRNA training will kick in.
 

More evidence that some physicians are sinking our collective ship, slowly but surely.
Thanks docs, your short sighted greed will be the undoing of this once rightly protected field.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I realize this is a wildly unpopular opinion, but I disagree with any kind of restrictions to practice. Buyer beware IMHO.
 
I realize this is a wildly unpopular opinion, but I disagree with any kind of restrictions to practice. Buyer beware IMHO.

I sense a productive conversation about politics in the works, where both sides listen to one another. I'm sure at the conclusion we will all come away with entirely new, enlightened viewpoints.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
This topic has been rehashed ad nauseum on these forums and there's really not a whole lot more to say unless it's in reference to current events.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I did some research on NP practice in preparation for a series of posts about NP practice on my blog. I found a couple of interesting things which even I was surprised about. There's also a Cochrane Review that looks at NP vs. MD practice; it's got a ton of data and goes into all of the studies with quite a bit of detail, so if you have any interest I'd recommend checking that out. Per the Cochrane review:

-NPs have similar rates of admission to hospitals and specialist referrals compared to MDs
-Both MDs and NPs have similar rates of resource utilization
-NPs and MDs see patients for the same number of visits over the course of the year, but NP visits are typically longer than MD visits
-NPs almost universally scored better than MDs on various "patient satisfaction" measures
-NPs are cheaper than MDs on a per patient per year basis; one study found that an NP-run urgent care service was more expensive than an equivalent MD service, but this increased cost was offset by more downstream savings

Interestingly, the AANP successfully lobbied to Oregon to require that NPs be reimbursed by all Oregon insurance companies - both private and public - at the same rates as any other provider. Ironically I think this sort of movement would completely sink the ship of NPs, as if insurance companies are required to reimburse midlevels and physicians at the same rate, I'm not sure why you would prefer the former over the latter.

With respect to the AMA, they have done an absolutely terrible job of advocating for physicians and, instead, seem to take the role of "the good guy." They tend to make claims about the moral superiority of physicians and the importance of providing care to all people in all circumstances irrespective of that impact on physicians. Until that general posture changes, I would expect next to nothing from the AMA when it comes to advocating for the interest of physicians.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
You can't concede on any aspect of encroachment. Once primary care falls, they will come for the specialists.

I actually disagree with this. I think the moment they come for specialists, that the physicians will start fighting back. I do think mid-levels will take over primary care, and physicians will specialists only though. I'm not in favor of giving primary care to the mid-levels, I just think it'll happen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
This bizarre obsession with evidence based medicine has swung too far in the wrong direction. There is a lot of sloppy work out there. Much of it is due to academics publishing to stay afloat in the hypercompetitive world of diminishing funding. You take a 2% decrease in mortality over placebo in a 1 year period that is barely statistically significant and it gets trumpeted to "this drug saves lives and is now the standard of care!" You have to look at who wrote the paper, who funded it, what data they were looking at and why. Then you have to think about all the research that goes on that never gets published.

Not that I don't respect Cochrane Reviews, but they are limited by the fact that they are reviews of primary literature using keywords and the data that is being mined in those individual papers are trying to measure something that's difficult to tease out. If you go into a hospital, you can ask any surgical resident and they will know who the good surgeons are and who the bad ones are. There are things that you have to see and experience which are not possible to measure with numbers. I read that review a while back and from what I remember from looking at the individual articles, they were short term studies that lasted around a year and they tended to measure surrogate markers of care like HgA1c. I don't blame them as there are no real ways to objectively measure the quality of patient care but it wasn't very impressive. You still do get a lot of "studies show nps are just as good as, if not better than mds", mostly from people who haven't actually read those studies.

One of the biggest problems with nurses is that they aren't trained to think critically
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I actually disagree with this. I think the moment they come for specialists, that the physicians will start fighting back. I do think mid-levels will take over primary care, and physicians will specialists only though. I'm not in favor of giving primary care to the mid-levels, I just think it'll happen.

They are coming for specialists now. Every time one of these threads surface on the forums, we have someone say "oh surgery is safe, because no one is going to allow an NP to operate on them". Except, there are people training NPs to do scopes, and then you see NPs getting colonoscopy privileges at VA medical centers. (Malpractice won't catch them there.)

Or even in my field, how long until some NP somewhere argues that they can interpret MSK plain film and then some crooked academic medical center starts training NPs in radiology.

The only way to stop this is to allow residents with a full medical license to bill CMS/3rd party payers. This is the reason NPs and PAs are allowed to do an end-run around the system: they can bill and hospitals love them for that. We can't until we're done with training. Until that disparity is corrected, residents will always be second class to NPs and PAs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
I actually disagree with this. I think the moment they come for specialists, that the physicians will start fighting back. I do think mid-levels will take over primary care, and physicians will specialists only though. I'm not in favor of giving primary care to the mid-levels, I just think it'll happen.

My point exactly, thank you. I think the cheaper business factor coupled with a low supply of PCPs is the main driving factor. If there wasn't such a need, I don't think there would be a big push for it. On the otherhand, maybe opening up so many new schools won't be as bad as a thing...more US grads feeling PCP spots.
 
They are coming for specialists now. Every time one of these threads surface on the forums, we have someone say "oh surgery is safe, because no one is going to allow an NP to operate on them". Except, there are people training NPs to do scopes, and then you see NPs getting colonoscopy privileges at VA medical centers. (Malpractice won't catch them there.)

Or even in my field, how long until some NP somewhere argues that they can interpret MSK plain film and then some crooked academic medical center starts training NPs in radiology.

The only way to stop this is to allow residents with a full medical license to bill CMS/3rd party payers. This is the reason NPs and PAs are allowed to do an end-run around the system: they can bill and hospitals love them for that. We can't until we're done with training. Until that disparity is corrected, residents will always be second class to NPs and PAs.

I'm still very skeptical that will infiltrate surgery and subspecialty medicine. At the most, I can see them being able to do a few bread and butter procedures, not even full out surgeries, but as far as threatening surgeons, etc. I just don't see that happening. Malpractice would wipe them out singlehandedly once they start doing real surgeries and making real diagnoses.
 
I did some research on NP practice in preparation for a series of posts about NP practice on my blog. I found a couple of interesting things which even I was surprised about. There's also a Cochrane Review that looks at NP vs. MD practice; it's got a ton of data and goes into all of the studies with quite a bit of detail, so if you have any interest I'd recommend checking that out. Per the Cochrane review:

-NPs have similar rates of admission to hospitals and specialist referrals compared to MDs
-Both MDs and NPs have similar rates of resource utilization
-NPs and MDs see patients for the same number of visits over the course of the year, but NP visits are typically longer than MD visits
-NPs almost universally scored better than MDs on various "patient satisfaction" measures
-NPs are cheaper than MDs on a per patient per year basis; one study found that an NP-run urgent care service was more expensive than an equivalent MD service, but this increased cost was offset by more downstream savings

Interestingly, the AANP successfully lobbied to Oregon to require that NPs be reimbursed by all Oregon insurance companies - both private and public - at the same rates as any other provider. Ironically I think this sort of movement would completely sink the ship of NPs, as if insurance companies are required to reimburse midlevels and physicians at the same rate, I'm not sure why you would prefer the former over the latter.

With respect to the AMA, they have done an absolutely terrible job of advocating for physicians and, instead, seem to take the role of "the good guy." They tend to make claims about the moral superiority of physicians and the importance of providing care to all people in all circumstances irrespective of that impact on physicians. Until that general posture changes, I would expect next to nothing from the AMA when it comes to advocating for the interest of physicians.

It seems like regardless of what we think might happen, there seems to be a big lack of agreement with AMA on these things. I also suspect there is a slight disconnect between younger physicians and older physicians. A lot has changed within the last 10-15 years (tuition cost, healthcare in general, PA/NP, etc.) that they are already further along in their life where these things will only minimally affect them.

It would be a little selfish, but almost necessary to see a PAC/lobbying group specifically for physician rights and proper reimbursement rates, whatever. The group would try to be as apolitical as possible, while solely lobbying for physician rights. I think that is a single, simple enough goal for the group that most physicians can get behind and identify with.
 
They are coming for specialists now. Every time one of these threads surface on the forums, we have someone say "oh surgery is safe, because no one is going to allow an NP to operate on them". Except, there are people training NPs to do scopes, and then you see NPs getting colonoscopy privileges at VA medical centers. (Malpractice won't catch them there.)

Or even in my field, how long until some NP somewhere argues that they can interpret MSK plain film and then some crooked academic medical center starts training NPs in radiology.

The only way to stop this is to allow residents with a full medical license to bill CMS/3rd party payers. This is the reason NPs and PAs are allowed to do an end-run around the system: they can bill and hospitals love them for that. We can't until we're done with training. Until that disparity is corrected, residents will always be second class to NPs and PAs.

wasn't aware it was happening in rads... thats some BS. I feel like this is something where they will push too hard and it'll have negative repercussions and then it'll get an extremely hard push-back.
 
This bizarre obsession with evidence based medicine has swung too far in the wrong direction. There is a lot of sloppy work out there. Much of it is due to academics publishing to stay afloat in the hypercompetitive world of diminishing funding. You take a 2% decrease in mortality over placebo in a 1 year period that is barely statistically significant and it gets trumpeted to "this drug saves lives and is now the standard of care!" You have to look at who wrote the paper, who funded it, what data they were looking at and why. Then you have to think about all the research that goes on that never gets published.

Not that I don't respect Cochrane Reviews, but they are limited by the fact that they are reviews of primary literature using keywords and the data that is being mined in those individual papers are trying to measure something that's difficult to tease out. If you go into a hospital, you can ask any surgical resident and they will know who the good surgeons are and who the bad ones are. There are things that you have to see and experience which are not possible to measure with numbers. I read that review a while back and from what I remember from looking at the individual articles, they were short term studies that lasted around a year and they tended to measure surrogate markers of care like HgA1c. I don't blame them as there are no real ways to objectively measure the quality of patient care but it wasn't very impressive. You still do get a lot of "studies show nps are just as good as, if not better than mds", mostly from people who haven't actually read those studies.

One of the biggest problems with nurses is that they aren't trained to think critically

I completely agree, and I find the outcome data completely unconvincing. The limited scope and short duration of the studies are huge pitfalls. To my mind, it's obvious that these studies are intentionally gimped in order to arrive at a conclusion that is, at best, weakly supported by the observations.

That said, I do think EBM has a place in our discussion. I agree that following EBM conclusions as if they're an infallible holy text is a bad idea. But when there is no data beyond anecdotal evidence or preconceived notions, I think it's important to at least consider the data that's being presented. Don't follow it blindly, no, but unless you have huge qualms with the methodology behind these studies, simply ignoring them seems like poor form to me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Uh yeah. Give an inch and they'll take a mile for sure. Giving up primary care would be absolutely insane on our part.

Although, as I've frequently stated, I'm to the point where I think DNP autonomy should be embraced in all fields. But IF AND ONLY IF they are expected to carry their own malpractice, and be absolutely and completely 100% responsible for their own outcomes. No more MD/DO backup, and MD/DO taking the malpractice heat. And absolutely no more "fellowship" training provided by MD/DO. They can open their own "fellowships" since they are equals. If they are able to do our jobs, then frankly medical schools should all be bulldozed to the ground because evidently our training is horrifically inefficient. In reality, I suspect that DNP's would find themselves on the unemployment line quickly as malpractice costs and suits skyrocketed for them, hospitals refused to hire them without being able to dump their mistakes off on physicians, and people started having poor outcomes.

But no more letting them play doctor without accepting the full responsibility for it. They wanna be one of the big boys, then it's time for them to put on their big boy pants.

Exactly. If we say that NPs get equal results and there is no bias, then it's also effectively stating that medical school is useless. Heck even residency too. I mean 3 years of NP training is probably still less responsibility and actual training than even 1 year of residency, yet physicians have to do a minimum of 4 years med school and 3 years in residency....
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I realize this is a wildly unpopular opinion, but I disagree with any kind of restrictions to practice. Buyer beware IMHO.
Yeah; I'll start supporting this position when nursing starts allowing LVNs or CNAs to do the job of RNs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Yeah; I'll start supporting this position when nursing starts allowing LVNs or CNAs to do the job of RNs.

Shades of grey.
 
I'm from Arkansas where there is current legislation about this very subject.

House Bill 1160 (Hammer) - the APRN Scope of Practice bill. It would allow Advanced Practice Registered Nurses (APRNs) who practice in "medically underserved" areas (73 of the 75 Arkansas counties), to obtain a permit from the Nursing Board allowing them to:

  1. Prescribe ALL Schedule II drugs.
  2. Serve as the equivalent to a primary care physician and lead a Patient-Centered Medical Home (PCMH).
  3. Receive reimbursement equal to a physician.
  4. Practice without a Collaborative Practice Agreement (total independence) if Nursing Board exemption is granted after showing two years practice under a Collaborative Practice Agreement.


    I have been speaking with my state representative and one of the responses was

    "It is my understanding the there are many states that allow this practice. Can you help me understand why this is a bad idea if so many other states allow?"

    Anyone have some good feedback I could pass along?
 
I'm from Arkansas where there is current legislation about this very subject.

House Bill 1160 (Hammer) - the APRN Scope of Practice bill. It would allow Advanced Practice Registered Nurses (APRNs) who practice in "medically underserved" areas (73 of the 75 Arkansas counties), to obtain a permit from the Nursing Board allowing them to:

  1. Prescribe ALL Schedule II drugs.
  2. Serve as the equivalent to a primary care physician and lead a Patient-Centered Medical Home (PCMH).
  3. Receive reimbursement equal to a physician.
  4. Practice without a Collaborative Practice Agreement (total independence) if Nursing Board exemption is granted after showing two years practice under a Collaborative Practice Agreement.


    I have been speaking with my state representative and one of the responses was

    "It is my understanding the there are many states that allow this practice. Can you help me understand why this is a bad idea if so many other states allow?"

    Anyone have some good feedback I could pass along?

Holy ****.
 
Holy ****.
Can we please forward this to all the people on this board who think this is gonna stop with primary care? It will continue, and now that 20 or so states allow for independent practice, you now have the argument of "well, a bunch of other states do it, why not us?"
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
That bill is terrifying but not as much as that question he posed. The gates are being opened by jokers like this, not people who have even the most basic understanding of the difference in education, training, and experience of the different "providers" on the spectrum.
 
That bill is terrifying but not as much as that question he posed.
It's not limited to Arkansas. Here's an interview between the Mass Medical Society and the President of the Mass Senate. http://www.massmed.org/News-and-Pub...--Is-a---System-in-Transition--/#.VNt4YimvFGe

I'll excerpt:
VS: There are many non-physician health care groups attempting to change the laws and practice without physician oversight in making diagnoses and providing services that stretch or exceed their training. The MMS is advancing legislation that favors physician-led health care teams as the best way to work collaboratively in expanding access to care. How will you approach scope-of-practice issues?

Rosenberg: My approach has always been in issues like this [to ask] what’s the norm? What are other people doing? Has it worked? Sometimes as an innovation state, we are first. But if there are many other states doing things, if we are very different than how other state are doing things we have to ask why.

I love teams. I love collaboration. When you have teams there are times when you have to have someone in charge, and there are times when leadership can come from anywhere on the team. Well-managed teams provide the best results. We are an innovation state so we can be first, and we can be early [in whatever we do.] We just want to make sure that whatever we decide, we do well.
 
You are deluded if you think NPs WONT be doing surgery independently within the next few decades. There is literally NO reason to think this won't be the case if you look at the history of the NP and the disparity between what they say they want to achieve as their end-goal and what their actual ambitions are... look no further than maxxor's post.
 
House Bill 1160 (Hammer) - the APRN Scope of Practice bill. It would allow Advanced Practice Registered Nurses (APRNs) who practice in "medically underserved" areas (73 of the 75 Arkansas counties), to obtain a permit from the Nursing Board allowing them to:

  1. Prescribe ALL Schedule II drugs.
  2. Serve as the equivalent to a primary care physician and lead a Patient-Centered Medical Home (PCMH).
  3. Receive reimbursement equal to a physician.
  4. Practice without a Collaborative Practice Agreement (total independence) if Nursing Board exemption is granted after showing two years practice under a Collaborative Practice Agreement.


    I have been speaking with my state representative and one of the responses was

    "It is my understanding the there are many states that allow this practice. Can you help me understand why this is a bad idea if so many other states allow?"

    Anyone have some good feedback I could pass along?

I am by no means an expert on this, but I have some generalities to pass along.

1.) First, point out the differences in training. Use publicly available Nursing curricula and allow comparisons to medical school. Your represenative may not be familiar with the differences in training.

2.) There are a number of studies highlighting these differences, showing that NPs often fail our board exams (step 3) which is considered easier/more clinical than the others). Emphasize that these exams are considered the absolute minimum standard for physician practice.
3.) The precautionary principle: it isn't our job to prove they are unsafe. It is their job to prove that they are safe.
You could not sell a generic drug on the market with a "we think it's safe." You must prove it is equivalent in every manner, pharmokinetically, dynamically, dosing, etc.
4.) The number of nurses who actually practice primary care is comparable to that of physicians. Many of them specialize.
5. ) These political nursing organizations are not attempting to reduce costs. As soon as they establish independent practice, they'll attempt to mandate "equal pay for equal work" (see Oregon).
6.) It is extraordinarily difficult to measure differences in patient outcomes between providers: the studies they frequently point to measure BP or satisfaction, which are basically useless. BP is heavily influenced by compliance.

In a general practice, there are three basic types of patients:
i.) Patient is normal, and does not need intervention
ii.) Patient is abnormal, but cannot be helped
iii.) Patient is abnormal, and can be treated.

The only place you're likely to see differences in outcomes is in group iii. Even in group iii, you are only likely to see differences in less common conditions. The nursing studies look at overall outcomes. This is not adequately powered to find the differences in outcomes that are necessary.

7.) The advanced practice of nurses was supposedly a method for highly experienced nurses to contribute more independently to the field. However, the way it is used, nurses with the absolute minimum requirements (a year or two of experience) are entering independent practice.

In short: nurses have not proven themselves safe. They have not proven themselves cost-effective. They have not shown that they are especially interested in primary care. Nurses have failed tests of basic clinical acumen required for independent practice. The path to advanced nurse practice was never meant to be so swiftly entered.

Finally, let's expand on the 3rd point, the precautionary principle. Medicine is a field that is about high minimum standards: explore the absolute minimum standard for becoming a physician (4 years undergrad, 4 years medical school, 3 years residency) with those of nurse practitioners. The differences are enormous.

Just my thoughts. I'm sure you already knew many of them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
I think we should go back to allowing an MD who has completed an intern year to practice as a primary care provider... If an NP can do it with no residency, why not?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I for one don't think Rainbow Dash has any place in the hospital.
 
In medical education these days, they are trying to brainwash students into believing every degree is equal. That's why they constantly use the term "provider" and not "physician" or "doctor." Here is the newest version of Robbins and Cotran Review of Pathology (question book). I found these questions looking at just 2 sections:

Chapter 22, question 13:

A 33-year-old woman comes to her nurse practitioner for a routine health maintenance examination. On physical examination, there are no abnormal findings. A Pap smear shows...

Chapter 22, question 15:

A 28-year-old sexually active woman comes to her physician’s assistant for a routine health maintenance examination. There are no abnormal findings...

Chapter 23, question 9:

A 58-year-old woman sees her naturopathic health care provider for a routine health examination. There are no remarkable findings on physical examination. A screening mammogram shows a 0.5-cm irregular area of increased density with scattered microcalcifications…

I'll let you decide if this is or isn't a subtle effort by academicians to down-play the differences between physicians and non-physician "providers."
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
In medical education these days, they are trying to brainwash students into believing every degree is equal. That's why they constantly use the term "provider" and not "physician" or "doctor." Here is the newest version of Robbins and Cotran Review of Pathology (question book). I found these questions looking at just 2 sections:

Chapter 22, question 13:

A 33-year-old woman comes to her nurse practitioner for a routine health maintenance examination. On physical examination, there are no abnormal findings. A Pap smear shows...

Chapter 22, question 15:

A 28-year-old sexually active woman comes to her physician’s assistant for a routine health maintenance examination. There are no abnormal findings...

Chapter 23, question 9:

A 58-year-old woman sees her naturopathic health care provider for a routine health examination. There are no remarkable findings on physical examination. A screening mammogram shows a 0.5-cm irregular area of increased density with scattered microcalcifications…

I'll let you decide if this is or isn't a subtle effort by academicians to down-play the differences between physicians and non-physician "providers."

I've seen this **** too. When I was doing the aafp questions, there was a ton of crap about providers and there were even a few questions on herbs and their side effects. I was like wtf? st johns wort I get but seriously... At least naturopaths aren't calling themselves naturopathic physicians yet (right?)

It doesn't surprise me that their physical exam shows no abnormal findings
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
One of my family members is a DNP, interviewed for a ENT job with a big health system. They said one of the things she would be doing would be low risk tonsil cases. Didn't take the job but definitely scary that it's gotten to this point.
 
One of my family members is a DNP, interviewed for a ENT job with a big health system. They said one of the things she would be doing would be low risk tonsil cases. Didn't take the job but definitely scary that it's gotten to this point.

Yeah they're all low risk tonsils until someone starts bleeding to death
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Yeah they're all low risk tonsils until someone starts bleeding to death

You shouldn't mix the airway, possibility for exsanguination into the airway, and "providers" who aren't trained to do tonsillectomy or secure an emergency airway.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
You can't concede on any aspect of encroachment. Once primary care falls, they will come for the specialists.
Who will train them?

There are a ton of extra licensing hurdles for specialties that simply don't exist for DNPs. Primary care can be done with minimal licensing on the part of the physician. There is exponentially more work to be done to get them anywhere else.
 
Who will train them?

There are a ton of extra licensing hurdles for specialties that simply don't exist for DNPs. Primary care can be done with minimal licensing on the part of the physician. There is exponentially more work to be done to get them anywhere else.
Please see my post in this same thread about this idea. They are getting trained in specialties by MDs (see GI NPs scoping at Hopkins) who sell out their profession and are getting hospitals to credential them to do procedures.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...no-policy-on-mlp-creep.1119767/#post-16158393

We need to look at this as a concerted movement to undermine physicians in ALL fields. You can't just let them have primary care, anesthesia, or whatever field of encroachment du jour. They will keep coming until there is nothing left.
 
Top