Does being Asian hurt your chances?

[wondergirl3]

I've read recently on a thread that being an ORM can dramatically reduce your chances, no matter how good your grades, MCAT, activities are. Is this true?

I can't do anything about my ethnicity! Unfair to still use affirmative action in today's world

Sincerely,
wondergirl3

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[RedPhys]

0/10

 

[Aubrey Graham]

Yeah..its a conspiracy to keep the Asians from achieving world domination.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Spirit of the Student Doc]

I've read of this occurring in the past. I thought it was rectified..... However, I might be wrong.
Uh, don't include that on your personal statement or anything though.

 

[PlaqueBuster]

I have read recently on a thread that being a young adult can dramatically increase your insurance payment, regardless of how good of a driver you are, your record, etc. Is this true? I can't do anything about my age! Unfair to still use age discrimination in today's world.

sincerely,
plaquebuster

 

[MaxPlancker]

Make the best of who you are and what you have and you will be A-OK.

 

[Theafoni]

I know this Asian guy with a 3.5 who got into a top 25 school. So I'd say no.

 

[pluto101]

The large number of white and Asian doctors and medical students would suggest that it is still somehow possible to overcome the significant lifetime disadvantage of being an ORM.

 

[gshocke]

given that Asians had a 43% acceptance rate last year while minorities such as blacks and Hispanics had a 37% and 30% acceptance rate, respectfully (which doesnt account for the individuals whom only received acceptances to the historically black colleges) then i would say, No, it does not hurt your chances.


But these are just numbers

edit: whites had 46% acceptance

 

[584376]

.

 

[Porkloins]

given that Asians had a 43% acceptance rate last year while minorities such as blacks and Hispanics had a 37% and 30% acceptance rate, respectfully (which doesnt account for the individuals whom only received acceptances to the historically black colleges) then i would say, No, it does not hurt your chances.


But these are just numbers

edit: whites had 46% acceptance

These numbers don't really prove your statement. The AMCAS tables show that with equal stats, URM > white > Asian in terms of admissions chances. Asians only have a high overall acceptance rate because on average their stats are high, and, if white = the baseline, they are getting in despite being Asian.

edit: To OP, being ORM will hurt your chances more than help, but it's not too dramatic of a drop.

 

[efle]

These numbers don't really prove your statement. The AMCAS tables show that with equal stats, URM > white > Asian in terms of admissions chances. Asians only have a high overall acceptance rate because on average their stats are high, and, if white = the baseline, they are getting in despite being Asian.

Yup this never made sense to me. Asians need higher scores than whites for the same odds and also get to grow up as a minority. Where is their helping hand, or even their equal treatment?

 

[TexasSurgeon]

I've read recently on a thread that being an ORM can dramatically reduce your chances, no matter how good your grades, MCAT, activities are. Is this true?

I can't do anything about my ethnicity! Unfair to still use affirmative action in today's world

Sincerely,
wondergirl3

-1/10

 

[Porkloins]

Yup this never made sense to me. Asians need higher scores than whites for the same odds and also get to grow up as a minority. Where is their helping hand, or even their equal treatment?

The helping hand for Asians = tiger moms /s

 

[Lamel]

Yup this never made sense to me. Asians need higher scores than whites for the same odds and also get to grow up as a minority. Where is their helping hand, or even their equal treatment?

URM/ORM/SES is defined by the school.

On average blacks and hispanics face greater institutionalized challenges, racism, and economic difficulties than other minorities - which is why their life experience is valued due to the general communities they come from.

If an ORM is socioeconomically disadvantaged, or have unusual life stories, they can state that on the application. Everyone gets looked at and just because you state "Asian" on the application doesn't mean they automatically dump you in a pile with all the Asians.

 

[DermViser]

Yup this never made sense to me. Asians need higher scores than whites for the same odds and also get to grow up as a minority. Where is their helping hand, or even their equal treatment?

Asians don't get a helping hand in the process.

 

[Porkloins]

URM/ORM/SES is defined by the school.

On average blacks and hispanics face greater institutionalized challenges, racism, and economic difficulties than other minorities - which is why their life experience is valued due to the general communities they come from.

If an ORM is socioeconomically disadvantaged, or have unusual life stories, they can state that on the application. Everyone gets looked at and just because you state "Asian" on the application doesn't mean they automatically dump you in a pile with all the Asians.

I don't think anyone would dispute that blacks face on average more institutionalized racism than Asians. But what's the reasoning for favoring whites over Asians?

 

[DermViser]

URM/ORM/SES is defined by the school.

On average blacks and hispanics face greater institutionalized challenges, racism, and economic difficulties than other minorities - which is why their life experience is valued due to the general communities they come from.

If an ORM is socioeconomically disadvantaged, or have unusual life stories, they can state that on the application. Everyone gets looked at and just because you state "Asian" on the application doesn't mean they automatically dump you in a pile with all the Asians.

I don't think your applicant of a Nigerian immigrant family who is upper middle class to affluent with 1 or both parents being doctors or in healthcare has faced economic difficulty.

 

[Lamel]

I don't think your applicant of a Nigerian immigrant family who is upper middle class to affluent with 1 or both parents being doctors or in healthcare has faced economic difficulty.

Neither do I. But can he provide a different background to the class that the school deems valuable? Maybe. Yours is a very specific hypothetical.

I don't think anyone would dispute that blacks face on average more institutionalized racism than Asians. But what's the reasoning for favoring whites over Asians?

A disproportionately large amount of Asians apply. Aren't the acceptance rates and stats for Whites/Asians pretty similar anyway?

 

[efle]

URM/ORM/SES is defined by the school.

On average blacks and hispanics face greater institutionalized challenges, racism, and economic difficulties than other minorities - which is why their life experience is valued due to the general communities they come from.

If an ORM is socioeconomically disadvantaged, or have unusual life stories, they can state that on the application. Everyone gets looked at and just because you state "Asian" on the application doesn't mean they automatically dump you in a pile with all the Asians.

I'm not comparing Asians to other minorities, I'm comparing them to whites. Without a doubt more people face struggles from Asian heritage than from Caucasian heritage, yet the latter gets more slack on GPA/MCAT.

Personally I think it's that Asians have no big and organized political involvement to try and address this sort of thing, they just respond to it by buckling down even more and meeting the unfairly high bar (as evidenced by the earlier post that Asian acceptance rates = whites despite the higher stats needed)

 

[DermViser]

Neither do I. But can he provide a different background to the class that the school deems valuable? Maybe. Yours is a very specific hypothetical.

It's a very common hypothetical.

 

[efle]

A disproportionately large amount of Asians apply. Aren't the acceptance rates and stats for Whites/Asians pretty similar anyway?

Accept rates are, MCAT odds per point aren't the same. It doesn't really matter how big the gap is though, the fact that it exists at all points out how affirmative action doesn't help all minorities, hinting at the fact that race is used as a proxy for low opportunity rather than a real interest in the "diversity" a minority member brings

 

[Spirit of the Student Doc]

I'm not comparing Asians to other minorities, I'm comparing them to whites. Without a doubt more people face struggles from Asian heritage than from Caucasian heritage, yet the latter gets more slack on GPA/MCAT.

Personally I think it's that Asians have no big and organized political involvement to try and address this sort of thing, they just respond to it by buckling down even more and meeting the unfairly high bar (as evidenced by the earlier post that Asian acceptance rates = whites despite the higher stats needed)

Then again are Asian a minority in the way others are? They're not disadvantaged..... They should have the same bar though.

 

[DermViser]

Then again are Asian a minority in the way others are? They're not disadvantaged..... They should have the same bar though.

Seriously? Please tell me you're kidding.

 

[Porkloins]

Neither do I. But can he provide a different background to the class that the school deems valuable? Maybe. Yours is a very specific hypothetical.



A disproportionately large amount of Asians apply. Aren't the acceptance rates and stats for Whites/Asians pretty similar anyway?

I'm looking at the tables now and they are pretty similar at the high GPA/MCAT regions but there seems to be a noticeable dropoff when you get into lower stats. e.g. 3.4-3.6GPA, 27-29 MCAT Asians have a 20% acceptance rate while whites have a 30% acceptance rate.

It's not a dramatic enough effect to support banning AA entirely (which would be too damaging to black/Hispanic populations) but it definitely should make people think about whether what is happening to Asians is okay. Are we saying that Asian doctors don't treat white patients as well as white doctors?

 

[Lamel]

It's a very common hypothetical.

Sure, but like I said it is up to the school do decide if they deem their background/experiences valuable enough to give slack for lower scores. I expect such applicants to have higher scores in general though.

 

[efle]

Then again are Asian a minority in the way others are?

Ohhhhh man

 

[Spirit of the Student Doc]

Seriously? Please tell me you're kidding.

I mean in relation to a URM. Asians should be treated equally. Perhaps, I'm wrong though. I haven't dug through the stats or anything like that...... I could be very wrong....... /Leaving thread, Thinking I may have stepped into something other than what I thought

 

[DermViser]

Sure, but like I said it is up to the school do decide if they deem their background/experiences valuable enough to give slack for lower scores. I expect such applicants to have higher scores in general though.

Not really:
http://magazine.good.is/articles/ivy-league-fooled-how-america-s-top-colleges-avoid-real-diversity

 

[Spirit of the Student Doc]

Ohhhhh man

I feel like, I'm missing something here..............................

 

[DermViser]

I mean in relation to a URM. Asians should be treated equally. Perhaps, I'm wrong though. I haven't dug through the stats or anything like that...... I could be very wrong....... /Leaving thread, Thinking I may have stepped into something other than what I thought

Not all Asians are rich, contrary to what you may think.

 

[efle]

Sure, but like I said it is up to the school do decide if they deem their background/experiences valuable enough to give slack for lower scores. I expect such applicants to have higher scores in general though.

Yet when competitive schools get race-blinded and only go off personal statement/the persons story to go with their stats, Asians suddenly become a much larger component of the student population. They are being discriminated against due to their pool having average higher stats, period - it is not due to them being less disadvantaged

See: UC system

 

[DermViser]

Yet when competitive schools get race-blinded and only go off personal statement/the persons story to go with their stats, Asians suddenly become a much larger component of the student population. They are being discriminated against due to their pool having average higher stats, period - it is not due to them being less disadvantaged

See: UC system

Bingo.

 

[Porkloins]

It's a pretty well established fact that social class/geography/other factors colleges market make no actual difference in undergrad admissions, while race/legacy/athlete status make huge differences.

Unsure how much this can be extrapolated to the med school admissions process, but it's a possibility.

 

[Lancer]

Yet when competitive schools get race-blinded and only go off personal statement/the persons story to go with their stats, Asians suddenly become a much larger component of the student population. They are being discriminated against due to their pool having average higher stats, period - it is not due to them being less disadvantaged

See: UC system

Very well put

 

[Lamel]

Yet when competitive schools get race-blinded and only go off personal statement/the persons story to go with their stats, Asians suddenly become a much larger component of the student population. They are being discriminated against due to their pool having average higher stats, period - it is not due to them being less disadvantaged

See: UC system

I agree with this assertion, but are we talking about undergraduate here, or medical schools? One serves a purpose to pump out professionals in a specific field where race undoubtedly matters.

I'm looking at the tables now and they are pretty similar at the high GPA/MCAT regions but there seems to be a noticeable dropoff when you get into lower stats. e.g. 3.4-3.6GPA, 27-29 MCAT Asians have a 20% acceptance rate while whites have a 30% acceptance rate.

It's not a dramatic enough effect to support banning AA entirely (which would be too damaging to black/Hispanic populations) but it definitely should make people think about whether what is happening to Asians is okay. Are we saying that Asian doctors don't treat white patients as well as white doctors?

So it becomes more of a noticeable difficulty in the marginal range of GPA/MCAT.

I think much of the difficulty for Asians comes from the fact that there are a disproportionate amounts of Asians applying with excellent scores, so medical schools can be picky. As for the bold, maybe to some extent yes, it may help to have the background of the patient population you treat. I think it is fine to have a doctor population which can accurately represent the country's population.

Not really:
http://magazine.good.is/articles/ivy-league-fooled-how-america-s-top-colleges-avoid-real-diversity

This doesn't negate my claim.


Edit: Let me clarify here, I am not saying that Asians don't have some tougher competition. In the argument between Asians vs. Whites, I am mainly saying the "Asian = doomed" idea is a bit blown out of proportion, as it starts to become noticeable once the applicants are below average in stats (<3.5, <30).

 

[gshocke]

I don't think your applicant of a Nigerian immigrant family who is upper middle class to affluent with 1 or both parents being doctors or in healthcare has faced economic difficulty.

im not even going to start with you today, because that same immigrant family were the ones living in homes with no running water and were going to hospitals where needles were being reused until they finally came to america and struggled to establish a life. so even though they eventually made it, does not negate the economic difficulty they face for the majority of their life.

 

[efle]

I agree with this assertion, but are we talking about undergraduate here, or medical schools? One serves a purpose to pump out professionals in a specific field where race undoubtedly matters.

If anything, I'd argue that diverse access to top-notch college education matters more to society than diverse access just within medicine. And so many of the same things are sought after at top undergrad vs med school (service to community, passion and achievement in your subject of interest, strong academics etc) that the comparison should hold

 

[reapplicanthelpme2014]

Asians are NOT a minority in medicine, hence why they are not given the same treatment as traditional URMs (Hispanics, blacks, Native American), regardless of their minority status in greater America.

 

[DermViser]

im not even going to start with you today, because that same immigrant family were the ones living in homes with no running water and were going to hospitals where needles were being reused until they finally came to america and struggled to establish a life. so even though they eventually made it, does not negate the economic difficulty they face for the majority of their life.

The same EXACT THING could be said for the Asian family as well.

 

[Porkloins]

im not even going to start with you today, because that same immigrant family were the ones living in homes with no running water and were going to hospitals where needles were being reused until they finally came to america and struggled to establish a life. so even though they eventually made it, does not negate the economic difficulty they face for the majority of their life.

He was talking about the children of immigrants who grow up for their entire lives in the upper-middle class. Those parents may have overcome incredible difficulty, but it's silly to think that the child has faced the same if their parents' hard work has allowed them to grow up in a cushy suburban neighborhood.

 

[efle]

im not even going to start with you today, because that same immigrant family were the ones living in homes with no running water and were going to hospitals where needles were being reused until they finally came to america and struggled to establish a life. so even though they eventually made it, does not negate the economic difficulty they face for the majority of their life.

Read his article he linked, the immigrants tend to have had similar or easier lives than native minorities

 

[DermViser]

Asians are NOT a minority in medicine, hence why they are not given the same treatment as traditional URMs (Hispanics, blacks, Native American), regardless of their minority status in greater America.

Neither are blacks from the African subcontinent: Ghana, Nigeria, etc. Much different than blacks which affirmative action was meant for.

 

[584376]

.

 

[DermViser]

He was talking about the children of immigrants who grow up for their entire lives in the upper-middle class. Those parents may have overcome incredible difficulty, but it's silly to think that the child has faced the same if their parents' hard work has allowed them to grow up in a cushy suburban neighborhood.

Thank you. He was itching for something to fight about. This isn't his first time either. Par for the course for him.

 

[DermViser]

This doesn't negate my claim.

Actually the link does - if you read it.

 

[Lamel]

If anything, I'd argue that diverse access to top-notch college education matters more to society than diverse access just within medicine. And so many of the same things are sought after at top undergrad vs med school (service to community, passion and achievement in your subject of interest, strong academics etc) that the comparison should hold

This is where I will disagree with you. Firstly, there are plenty of other great colleges out there; if someone doesn't get into a top school it isn't the end of the world. Furthermore, medicine is a field where race can have a very real affect on outcome, whereas other jobs it likely isn't that much of a factor.

When it comes to medical school, the simple fact is that a disproportionately large amount of Asians apply, who on average have similar backgrounds, so medical schools can pick some more cream of the crop compared to white applicants. I don't think it is surprising then to see some disparity in the lower end of scores.

I don't disagree with the fact that AA in undergrad may unfairly target Asians, as pseudo-AA (such as legacy, athlete etc.) may still help whites get ahead.

Neither are blacks from the African subcontinent: Ghana, Nigeria, etc. Much different than blacks which affirmative action was meant for.

Do you have any data on what proportion of the black students at medical schools are African vs. African-American, and their corresponding stats?

Actually the link does - if you read it.

I'm saying the medical school can assign value to their background on their own terms. Some may want African immigrants, some may not. Your link is referring to undergrads as well, where the dynamics can be a bit different. Lastly, your link is fixated on the financial aspect only, not any other type of discrimination.

 

[DermViser]

Furthermore, medicine is a field where race can have a very real affect on outcome, whereas other jobs it likely isn't that much of a factor.

So the race of the provider affects the outcome for the patient? I didn't know HCTZ worked better as a diuretic based on the ordering physician's skin color.

 

[reapplicanthelpme2014]

Neither are blacks from the African subcontinent: Ghana, Nigeria, etc. Much different than blacks which affirmative action was meant for.

You really want to tell me that blacks (any type of black, whether black American, African American, or Caribbean American) are not the minority in medicine? Seriously? Yes, compared to the different ethnic groups that compose the percentage of blacks enrolled in medical school, those from Africa tend to be higher, but overall, the number of blacks (because let's not act like you don't look at us all the same even though we are from different countries) in medical school is significantly less than the amount of Asians and whites. Many schools want to increase diversity, and that means implementing a system that can increase the amount of AA coming into the schools. I don't understand why that's viewed as negative, even if the black person coming in came from an affluent background. So they can't add to the diversity?

 

[gshocke]

ive read that article a million times because everyone seems to love to use that to try and justify their weak argument.

okay nigerians have been able to access education and excel and create a good life for themselves, financially. that does not mean all the disadvantages that coming with being black suddenly disappears just because they have made money.

stop correlating economic security to social, judicial, and educational equality

before you know it people are going to start saying that a natural born black american who is a descendant of slaves have completely avoided discrimination or disadvantages once they break the 100k bracket.