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Does having publications help with getting residency? Is it better to have papers in the field you want to be in? Thanks
A strong research experience (pub/present/grant) is the best extracurricular activity
I have never even done research, but I would like to know this as well. Clinical research sounds a lot more interesting than being in a labDo you guys think that clinical research is as strong as lab research in terms of strengthening the application? I really hate the lab but wouldn't mind clinical research.
Do you guys think that clinical research is as strong as lab research in terms of strengthening the application? I really hate the lab but wouldn't mind clinical research.
I have never even done research, but I would like to know this as well. Clinical research sounds a lot more interesting than being in a lab
I would be interested to know whether having published PRIOR to medical school makes a difference. Obviously it would be most beneficial to publish during medical school in your chosen field - but is pre-med-school research even a consideration?
That's great. So can you get clinical research pubs too? Only lab I ever liked was micro. Maybe that will change in med school.Clinical research is great and is also a lot easier to publish than basic science. There are some fields that value basic science publications, especially in prestigious journals. You absolutely can't go wrong with clinical research though. I would only get involved in a basic sciences project if you are optimistic it will result in a pub (ex: the lab produces multiple papers per year).
Yes, pre-med research is still a consideration. Any publication will be a component of your CV regardless of what stage you are at. With that being said, you are correct that research conducted while in medical school is more highly favored.
That's great. So can you get clinical research pubs too? Only lab I ever liked was micro. Maybe that will change in med school.
Thanks for asking this -- exactly what I was wondering (/hoping )!I would be interested to know whether having published PRIOR to medical school makes a difference. Obviously it would be most beneficial to publish during medical school in your chosen field - but is pre-med-school research even a consideration?
Wow man congrats, is publishing clinical research really that much faster than basic science research? It took us 3.5 years of solid work to publish our work in basic sciences. Though we published at a top scientific journal.Absolutely.
I am planning on 3 clinical pubs before the start of second year. It's way more doable than basic science pubs and obviously doesn't require the lab time. If you like lab research though, go for that. This is especially true if you want to pursue that type of research in the future. I've had about 4 years of lab research experience and it was invaluable for securing clinical research positions.
I would like to know this as wellWow man congrats, is publishing clinical research really that much faster than basic science research? It took us 3.5 years of solid work to publish our work in basic sciences. Though we published at a top scientific journal.
Can you briefly characterize the path to clinical research pubs? just curious man, sounds great!
thanks!
Wow man congrats, is publishing clinical research really that much faster than basic science research? It took us 3.5 years of solid work to publish our work in basic sciences. Though we published at a top scientific journal.
Can you briefly characterize the path to clinical research pubs? just curious man, sounds great!
thanks!
I would like to know this as well
Thanks! Great info.Depends on what type of clinical research it is. If it is clinical trials, then those take some time but still shorter than basic science type stuff that you mentioned. If it is literature reviews or case reports, then those are quicker. Find something interesting and see if you can make sense of specific data in a new light. Case reports can be difficult to publish in certain journals, but there are definitely some opportunities there. My suggestion would be to get in contact with a clinical researcher in a field that interests you and ask to join the team. Have goals set before you talk to them so they know how to guide you. Research mentorship is a lot of fun, you will learn a lot (lots of literature reading), and you will have the pleasure of contributing to advancing medical knowledge.
Thanks! Great info.
I see there are masters in clinical research. Would you say putting the time in med school and residency would give you sufficient proficiency? I want to try clinical research but avoid further spending on degrees.Research helps, but it isn't required despite what SDN makes it seem. I didn't really have any research and I did fine in the match.
Clinical research is crazy easy to do. It just takes a few hours to make an excel sheet, and once the data is organized you can then start writing the paper. Its way quicker and less painful than basic science research.
Unfortunately, to do this kind of research you need a large database of patient information and most DO school's do not have access to such large databases.
I see there are masters in clinical research. Would you say putting the time in med school and residency would give you sufficient proficiency? I want to try clinical research but avoid further spending on degrees.
That's the way I like it. Nice and free.I know some medical schools offer dual-degree programs, but you don't necessarily need to get an MS in clinical research to figure things out. Learn by doing.
Can you briefly characterize the path to clinical research pubs? just curious man, sounds great!
thanks!
I would like to know this as well
Sorry for the delayed response... it was OMM practical time.
@NeuroLAX gave a solid answer but I'll expand on a little of what I specifically did...
I had a couple solid basic science research experiences in undergrad that lead to a couple pubs and a few poster presentations. After graduating I did basic science research for a year while applying. Also immediately once med school started, I began looking for any faculty members that had research projects in works. I was lucky enough to find a doc that had such a project and I essentially did a massive literature review that ended up in a publication. I had no prior experience in the field but went out of my way to write a really convincing proposal of how my basic science research background and writing of papers and abstracts would allow be to transition into this new project with ease. This was very easy to do while taking classes as it required no lab time. The key here was that I spun my past experiences to meet the needs of the project and went out on a limb to find the opportunity.
The second two pubs have not been completed but are part of a research fellowship I obtained at a neighboring academic hospital and have begun working on. As @cliquesh mentioned, I had to search outside of my DO school to have access to databases and find an institution with the infrastructure to support such projects. I will admit that there was some luck involved at landing a solid summer research program with a guarantee of pubs, but I was extremely proactive in finding a spot in the specialty I wanted. As soon as school started, I began looking for summer options will the goal of getting a publication. My advice would be to be very proactive and reach out to anyone you possibly can -- people want free labor. Use your past experiences to convince them you are the person for the job and will require minimal oversight. I am a huge proponent of DO students seeking out opportunities at neighboring academic hospitals or MD institutions if they offer the type of research you are interested in.
I also agree with the above comments that no MS or additional
degree is required for clinical
research.
Do you think it will be difficult for those with zero research experience to get clinical research?
Do you think it will be difficult for those with zero research experience to get clinical research?
I had no clinical research experience before residency and within the first few months of residency I wrote my first paper. I'm currently working on my 3rd. If you go to a big academic place for residency, attendings will be dieing to get your help.
I had no clinical research experience before residency and within the first few months of residency I wrote my first paper. I'm currently working on my 3rd. If you go to a big academic place for residency, attendings will be dieing to get your help.
Thanks for all of the advice and encouragement!
For someone who does not have much research experience, do you have any recommendations as to how to initially approach a PI to ask them to join their lab/any current projects? Is there anything you can say apart from "I am interested in your work"? Additionally, I hear that in order to have a higher chance for getting a publication you can do retrospective longitudinal studies, literature reviews, or offer to write book chapters...might you approach them with any of these options in order to join their lab?
Yeah, small retrospective studies, review articles, and case studies is where it's at. They are pretty much just garbage meaningless publications, but it's something to put on your resume. I'd personally avoid real research, like a lab doing basic science research, unless that's something you really want to do. It's too time consuming with little reward. However, the publications from that environment are typically more meaningful than the nonsense that I do.
When I was on rotations Id just directly asked the person in charge of the rotation if there were any projects I could get involved with. I ended up writing a few review articles. When I was an intern I thought I wanted to do cardiac anesthesia, so I just asked one of the cardiac anesthesiologists if they had a project I could help with. They had many projects. It's not a big deal. Just ask.
I'm really debating whether to apply to summer research internships or to spend a portion of my summer break shadowing my friend's father, who is an IM preceptor at a program I'm considering for residency.
I think I'd enjoy the shadowing experience much more than the research since I have already had a research experience in undergrad and didn't like it much. However, the whole point of this is to make my application more competitive for residency.
What do you guys think I should do?
I'm really debating whether to apply to summer research internships or to spend a portion of my summer break shadowing my friend's father, who is an IM preceptor at a program I'm considering for residency.
I think I'd enjoy the shadowing experience much more than the research since I have already had a research experience in undergrad and didn't like it much. However, the whole point of this is to make my application more competitive for residency.
What do you guys think I should do?
I'm no expert, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt. I know my program cares more about research publications than posters. It probably goes something like case report < review article < abstract/poster at national meeting < research publication.
Did you happen to know on average how many publications applicants had for your program? Or was that something that was kept hidden?
That I don't know, but I've been looking at candidates' applications this year. Most people seem to have 1 or 2 things from college and 1 or 3 things from medical schools. When I say "thing" I mean a poster/abstract/publication. Some MD/PhDs have many more publications. I've only seen one application that didn't have any research, but she was very attractive and personable, hah.
Anesthesia doesn't typically attract research oriented people, so I don't know how much you can take from my experience, but my program is pretty decent and most of the candidates are from top 50 md schools. So, at least from my experience, I don't think the average USMD does that much research. Having one or 2 things seems adequate.
Hahaha oh wow. I guess it is really true that aesthetic looks can do great things during residency matches.
That's great to know. Thank you so much for the information. I think it's just nice to have breakdown of an amount of research that is seen with a ACGME program.
Yea, being attractive helps, sadly. Most derm residents are attractive, if you didn't know already.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf will show you average board scores, publications, work experiences, volunteer experiences, etc, by speciality. Keep in mind most of these experiences are bull**** fluff; just like bull**** you put on your med school application.
The research would help more. Shadowing won't help at all, really. It may help you decide if you like IM or not, which is useful, but it won't help your application. You don't need research for most specialities, especially if the rest of your application is good, but you haven't taken your boards yet, so you might as well try to make yourself as competitive as possible.
huh. I didn't know that there were that many international applicants compared to DO applicants.
Have you heard of the All-in policy that just came into effect for the NRMP? I guess there is no longer a pre-match for residency programs for independent applicants.
Would a research experience, without publications, be beneficial as well?
I'm applying to few summer internship in my area, but I want to know if I end up being accepted to a study with small chances of being published any time soon, should I still participate in it?
Taking in mind that the vast majority of my experience is from the academic end of research (i.e., @cliquesh certainly knows much more re: clinical research), I would say:What do you think is better/more impactful for matching: clinical research with 1 or 2 publications or bench research with 0 publications but with a poster presentation at a national conference.
I'm currently on the grounds for doing some retrospective analysis for patients in surgical oncology but I think it'll take close to year before the manuscript is submitted. After getting my first exposure to this type of research I feel like I enjoy the bench science research a bit more.
Taking in mind that the vast majority of my experience is from the academic end of research (i.e., @cliquesh certainly knows much more re: clinical research), I would say:
poster << conference talk <<<< chapter/review article <<<<<<< peer-reviewed paper.
I would gladly trade 5-8 of my national conference presentations for one more peer-reviewed publication. The faculty I worked with only really looked at posters on a CV to see what conferences people went to... the papers were what really counted for assessing suitability for Ph.D./faculty positions. Basically, I've never seen a case where papers don't beat out any other sort of research presentation.
Well I did cog neuro research for 7 years before starting medical school, so I had plenty of time to go to conferences... and they add up pretty quickly when your life is dedicated to research. Of course a few presentations are helpful, but they afford diminishing returns pretty quickly after the first handful. However, there's really no such thing as "too many" papers.You have that many national conference presentations?! I need to get my **** together haha. If I worked on my project a bit more in UG it would have went to PLoS One but I couldn't last in my PI's lab.
huh. I didn't know that there were that many international applicants compared to DO applicants.
Have you heard of the All-in policy that just came into effect for the NRMP? I guess there is no longer a pre-match for residency programs for independent applicants.
All in had been gone for a couple years. It was only really a big deal for the international grads. Some programs always liked to hold out one or two spots for exceptional or connected people, whereas most were desperate and saw it as a way to get other desperate people (IMGs).
It's a good move for the NRMP, because it guarantees more participants and the SOAP becomes more effective, but there are still programs that find a way around it. On top of that, programs that are very new or don't start on cycle (for whatever reason) still can take people outside of the match.
Either way though, like cliquesh said, it probably wouldn't be a desirable route. As much as the match favors what programs want, there are inherent safeguards that prevent abuse of desperate med school seniors or graduates.
Ah that makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification.
I've heard that doing research with a program director (if they do research) can be beneficial in matching at that program? Is that fairly true or is that just another rumor?