Does it matter which school you go to?

[stud247]

Let's say somebody wants to do navy hpsp and pay for it by doing internship+4yrs gmo. Then do a civilian EM residency and settle down. Let's say he is confident that he will do well enough on step1 and do well enough as a gmo to make it into civilian EM program. Does it matter then if I get into my rather selective but cheap and reputable med school, or if I go to a DO school? I am in the process of filling out med school applications. And if i do go with navy hpsp, I don't see why I should take into account any factor other than geography? Of course I will only know for sure whether I am doing hpsp next spring(when I will or will not sign any documents).

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[colbgw02]

Let's say somebody wants to do navy hpsp and pay for it by doing internship+4yrs gmo. Then do a civilian EM residency and settle down. Let's say he is confident that he will do well enough on step1 and do well enough as a gmo to make it into civilian EM program. Does it matter then if I get into my rather selective but cheap and reputable med school, or if I go to a DO school? I am in the process of filling out med school applications. And if i do go with navy hpsp, I don't see why I should take into account any factor other than geography? Of course I will only know for sure whether I am doing hpsp next spring(when I will or will not sign any documents).

The most important credential is always the last one. If you did a fellowship at MGH, I don't really care if you went to college at the Upstairs Holllywood Barber School.

 

[notdeadyet]

If you did a fellowship at MGH, I don't really care if you went to college at the Upstairs Holllywood Barber School.

You might not, but employers will. I agree that the more recent training is more heavily weighted, but assuming that everything prior gets lost in the wash is wishful thinking.

Especially something like EM, which is what the OP is posting about. Unlike IM fellowships, EM fellowships are mostly add-ons. An ultrasound fellowship is advanced training that supplements your EM training, not the other way around.

 

[notdeadyet]

Let's say he is confident that he will do well enough on step1 and do well enough as a gmo to make it into civilian EM program.

If you're not fussy about where to go for residency, with an average Step 1 and good clinical evals, you should get in to an EM program somewhere. If you have your eye on specific programs or particular locations, you should plan on excelling. And you can not predict at all how well you will do on the Step 1 before starting med school. Whole different kettle of fish from anything else.

Does it matter then if I get into my rather selective but cheap and reputable med school, or if I go to a DO school?

If you hope to go to an allopathic residency, go to an allopathic med school. Osteopaths have a tough time getting allopathic residencies in some specialties. Luckily, EM has much less DO-bias than some specialties. But all things being equal, allopathic programs will take allopathic candidates. I wouldn't opt DO unless you have a real affinity for their philosophy, OMM, or osteopathic residencies.

I am in the process of filling out med school applications. And if i do go with navy hpsp, I don't see why I should take into account any factor other than geography?

You may get a civilian deferment (good luck with that). If so, you will have more allopathic options with an allopathic degree.

 

[NavyFP]

You should go to the absolute best program you can get into. Although some will only look at what you did last, people who get into great residencies often have gone to great medical schools. It is a trickle down.

Osteopaths often have difficulty matching in East Coast/Southern residencies as the bias is still pretty strong.

 

[deuist]

Osteopaths often have difficulty matching in East Coast/Southern residencies as the bias is still pretty strong.

Bias? How many allopaths do you know in osteopathic residencies?

 

[NavyFP]

Bias? How many allopaths do you know in osteopathic residencies?

Sorry, I will clarify. There is significant bias in allopathic residencies. (thus demonstrating my bias as I was only thinking about allopathic residencies.)

 

[Gastrapathy]

Sorry, I will clarify. There is significant bias in allopathic residencies. (thus demonstrating my bias as I was only thinking about allopathic residencies.)

NavyFP, always gracious.

I've never met an allopath that wanted to get into a osteopathic residency. All military residencies are allopathic. I think we are less biased than the rest of allopathic medicine.

 

[deuist]

There is significant bias in allopathic residencies.

And again I ask, how many allopaths match into osteopathic residencies each year? What about the number of interviews offered? DO's love to complain about bias against them, but won't even bother to consider MD's for their own residencies. There's a double standard.

 

[notdeadyet]

And again I ask, how many allopaths match into osteopathic residencies each year? What about the number of interviews offered? DO's love to complain about bias against them, but won't even bother to consider MD's for their own residencies. There's a double standard.

Meh. Have you ever met an allopathic grad pining for an osteopathic residency? I haven't.

 

[jabreal00]

NavyFP, always gracious.

I've never met an allopath that wanted to get into a osteopathic residency. All military residencies are allopathic. I think we are less biased than the rest of allopathic medicine.

From my experience as an Army allopathic physician I would say MD=DO in the Army. Initially I was biased but have come to respect them. Many of the DOs are quite competent. My chief resident when I was an intern was brilliant. I do not detect any bias and there are many DOs in all specialties including the competitive ones. The only exception, is at Walter Reed, there's still some resistance there from the older docs. If one was considering DO, I would advise them to do the HPSP scholarship if they were interested in a competitive allopathic residency (ortho, EM) or IM subspecialty (cardiology, GI).

 

[stud247]

Thank you all for the replies. So if I understand correctly, if I go to the worst possible EM residency, I will have career problems later on? I will have trouble getting a job at the better hospitals/groups?

The other question I have does not have much to do with what med school I go to. Let's say I go to some school and then do my 1yr of internship and 4yrs of gmo in the navy. Would I then be applying for pgy2 positions of 3yr programs or pgy2 of 4yr programs? How about pgy1 positions for 3yrs program(i understand most em programs are 3yr)? If I come from the same med school and have the same step1 score as another hypothetical m4 applicant, would I be at an advantage or a disadvantage? I understand that navy would give me experience. But m4 would have the chance to do a clerkship at the programs theyre interested in and I am not sure what kind of match I would participate in if I were 5yrs out of school and had a completed internship.

I am not interested in the army. I read on this forum that EM is a very competitive specialty in the army and if you don't get it you just do a GMO tour in the army. And if I do get it, I serve in the army for 7yrs. I'd rather dive for a living.. Besides, diving might be the type of hobby that I would continue to engage in once I became a civilian and had even more free time.

 

[Doctor Bob]

Meh. Have you ever met an allopathic grad pining for an osteopathic residency? I haven't.

I have... more than a few.
Especially allopathic students who wanted derm, ortho, radiology and other competitive specialties, but couldn't land a spot in the allopathic match.

Because at the end of the day (for example) both DO trained derm residents and MD trained derm residents are dermatologists. I've never seen anyone advertise themselves as "Allopathically Trained Dermatologist" or "Osteopathically Trained Dermatologist".

And patients can't tell the difference.

 

[Doctor Bob]

Let's say I go to some school and then do my 1yr of internship and 4yrs of gmo in the navy. Would I then be applying for pgy2 positions of 3yr programs or pgy2 of 4yr programs? How about pgy1 positions for 3yrs program(i understand most em programs are 3yr)?

You'd most likely be applying for a 1st year spot at a 3 year program, or a 1st year spot at a 4 year program. A few of the 4 year programs may give you some credit for your internship, but no 3 year program will give you advanced standing; the RRC requirements won't let them.

If I come from the same med school and have the same step1 score as another hypothetical m4 applicant, would I be at an advantage or a disadvantage? I understand that navy would give me experience. But m4 would have the chance to do a clerkship at the programs theyre interested in and I am not sure what kind of match I would participate in if I were 5yrs out of school and had a completed internship.

After doing a GMO tour, you will beat any M4 for a position, hands down. The military match works on a point-based system. As a GMO you'll be able to acquire more points than an M4 could so you'd get selected first. (This is assuming that you pass your boards and don't get any bad marks on your file during your time as a GMO). Also as a GMO you'd have already passed step 3 which works in your favor, you'll be able to get letters from your commanders which M4s can't. There are a lot of things which give you a leg up when you reapply after doing GMO.

 

[stud247]

I have... more than a few.
Especially allopathic students who wanted derm, ortho, radiology and other competitive specialties, but couldn't land a spot in the allopathic match.

Because at the end of the day (for example) both DO trained derm residents and MD trained derm residents are dermatologists. I've never seen anyone advertise themselves as "Allopathically Trained Dermatologist" or "Osteopathically Trained Dermatologist".

If it does not matter which school and which residency you go to then why is there such a huge disparity in the selectivity between schools? Even for step1, you mostly study by using standardized books the same way you study for mcat. I understand that some schools are better for research. But only a small % of med school applicants consider research as their #1 reason. Most just want to get a job of their choice as a physician at the end of the day. I am interested in Nova because of geography.. So why should I try to get into the "best" that I can.

 

[stud247]

You'd most likely be applying for a 1st year spot at a 3 year program, or a 1st year spot at a 4 year program. A few of the 4 year programs may give you some credit for your internship, but no 3 year program will give you advanced standing; the RRC requirements won't let them.



After doing a GMO tour, you will beat any M4 for a position, hands down. The military match works on a point-based system. As a GMO you'll be able to acquire more points than an M4 could so you'd get selected first. (This is assuming that you pass your boards and don't get any bad marks on your file during your time as a GMO). Also as a GMO you'd have already passed step 3 which works in your favor, you'll be able to get letters from your commanders which M4s can't. There are a lot of things which give you a leg up when you reapply after doing GMO.

Sorry, I meant to ask about civilian residencies only. I would not want to commit to another 6yrs in the military. Do any of those points still hold if I apply to civilian 3yr programs?

 

[notdeadyet]

You'd most likely be applying for a 1st year spot at a 3 year program, or a 1st year spot at a 4 year program. A few of the 4 year programs may give you some credit for your internship, but no 3 year program will give you advanced standing; the RRC requirements won't let them.

I think this deserves some emphasis. The thought of essentially redoing an internship year is a big bummer. And add into the fact that it could cost you $100K+ in lost income, and that's something that ought to go into decision-making process.

After doing a GMO tour, you will beat any M4 for a position, hands down. The military match works on a point-based system. As a GMO you'll be able to acquire more points than an M4 could so you'd get selected first. (This is assuming that you pass your boards and don't get any bad marks on your file during your time as a GMO). Also as a GMO you'd have already passed step 3 which works in your favor, you'll be able to get letters from your commanders which M4s can't. There are a lot of things which give you a leg up when you reapply after doing GMO.

You're talking military match here, correct? I agree that a GMO tour will give you a big leg up on the military match. The civilian match I think it can help at some places and not do much for you at others. Even the ones it helps you at, I'd weight it heavily with the prospect of having to do an additional year of internship. That's something that probably sounds like something you can shrug at as a pre-med, but I think it bears more weight a few years down the road.

 

[stud247]

I think this deserves some emphasis. The thought of essentially redoing an internship year is a big bummer. And add into the fact that it could cost you $100K+ in lost income, and that's something that ought to go into decision-making process.

You're talking military match here, correct? I agree that a GMO tour will give you a big leg up on the military match. The civilian match I think it can help at some places and not do much for you at others. Even the ones it helps you at, I'd weight it heavily with the prospect of having to do an additional year of internship. That's something that probably sounds like something you can shrug at as a pre-med, but I think it bears more weight a few years down the road.

So that means I would be doing a 3yr residency. It would mean that those 5yrs of payback were lost income, which is something I thought about before making this thread, but I don't know if that's so bad assuming I could get into a civilian residency and a good job afterwards. If civilian schools are hesitant about recognizing military internship year, is it possible that they might prefer to hire m4's just to avoid this problem?

 

[Doctor Bob]

Sorry, I meant to ask about civilian residencies only. I would not want to commit to another 6yrs in the military. Do any of those points still hold if I apply to civilian 3yr programs?

see below

You're talking military match here, correct? I agree that a GMO tour will give you a big leg up on the military match. The civilian match I think it can help at some places and not do much for you at others. Even the ones it helps you at, I'd weight it heavily with the prospect of having to do an additional year of internship. That's something that probably sounds like something you can shrug at as a pre-med, but I think it bears more weight a few years down the road.

Most of the things I mentioned are relevant to the military match only. Whether or not it helps you at a civilian program will depend on the program. When I was interviewing at civ programs, I found it to be helpful. I already had some experience, I had already passed step 3, I already had a lot of procedural competency. When comparing me to an M4 I was less of a risk (no worries about me not being able to get a license, etc.). Then again, some programs may prefer to have someone who hasn't learned procedures in a certain way. And civilian programs put more emphasis on making sure that the applicant's personality fits with them. And that's something that doesn't matter whether you're finishing as a GMO or just graduating.

I didn't find the prospect of repeating the internship year all that daunting, especially because in a 3 year program, the ER exposure is still pretty high. But that's just me. How much weight you want to give to having to repeat internship year is a personal preference, and yes, your opinion of it may change between graduation and the end of a GMO tour. And that's something I can't speak to... I finished my military internship and now I'm going straight into a civilian ER program. So I didn't have to do the GMO tour (yay Air Force!)

If civilian schools are hesitant about recognizing military internship year, is it possible that they might prefer to hire m4's just to avoid this problem?

Not at all. It makes no difference to the program. It only matters to you. I'm not really sure what "problem" the program would be avoiding.

 

[stud247]

see below



Most of the things I mentioned are relevant to the military match only. Whether or not it helps you at a civilian program will depend on the program. When I was interviewing at civ programs, I found it to be helpful. I already had some experience, I had already passed step 3, I already had a lot of procedural competency. When comparing me to an M4 I was less of a risk (no worries about me not being able to get a license, etc.). Then again, some programs may prefer to have someone who hasn't learned procedures in a certain way. And civilian programs put more emphasis on making sure that the applicant's personality fits with them. And that's something that doesn't matter whether you're finishing as a GMO or just graduating.

I didn't find the prospect of repeating the internship year all that daunting, especially because in a 3 year program, the ER exposure is still pretty high. But that's just me. How much weight you want to give to having to repeat internship year is a personal preference, and yes, your opinion of it may change between graduation and the end of a GMO tour. And that's something I can't speak to... I finished my military internship and now I'm going straight into a civilian ER program. So I didn't have to do the GMO tour (yay Air Force!)



Not at all. It makes no difference to the program. It only matters to you. I'm not really sure what "problem" the program would be avoiding.

Thank you. What are some of the procedures that you may learn as an intern in the military and also as a GMO/DMO/etc? What could you learn as a GMO if you get to rotate at a hospital in Iraq?