Does Specializing Make Financial Sense?

[Sublimazing]

250k from day one is overly optimistic.

try 50k the first year in California, if you're even lucky enough to find a job as a recent grad <3 yrs out of school.

250k as a gp straight out? Yeah not happening...unless you're pushing 300+ days/year selling your soul at a chain

For specialists though there are plenty of opportunities for 250k across the board

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[yappy]

Yikes... you must really love California.

250k from day one is overly optimistic.

try 50k the first year in California, if you're even lucky enough to find a job as a recent grad <3 yrs out of school.

 

[mr24]

people always say this, and im sure its true to an extent, but i know 3 new grads guaranteed 120k or higher in southern california. its not hear say either, i know them personally.

 

[Michael Scarn]

people always say this, and im sure its true to an extent, but i know 3 new grads guaranteed 120k or higher in southern california. its not hear say either, i know them personally.

I couldn't make my loan payments on that...

 

[mike3kgt]

I couldn't make my loan payments on that...

This is the biggest problem with dentistry now. $120k is a lot of money a month and new grads NEED more than that just to pay the bills.

 

[dort-ort]

This is the biggest problem with dentistry now. $120k is a lot of money a month and new grads NEED more than that just to pay the bills.

And the problem is only going to get bigger. Why? as more and more for profit Dental schools open, more and more dentists there are which will lower that $120K salary. The chains know this and will take advantage and lower the pay because they know if one dentist don't like it, there are hundreds other waiting in line to take the job. All for what - so they can pay back the loans. So these new grads with 300K+ debt will essentially be working for the government or the banks they are paying back loan to. you see I feel sorry for all these new grads, they are screwed, they think its easy to pay back these loans but once your out and feel the pressure of that $3000 or more loan bill every month they are going to know that they got ripped off. good luck with that.

 

[Sublimazing]

And the problem is only going to get bigger. Why? as more and more for profit Dental schools open, more and more dentists there are which will lower that $120K salary. The chains know this and will take advantage and lower the pay because they know if one dentist don't like it, there are hundreds other waiting in line to take the job. All for what - so they can pay back the loans. So these new grads with 300K+ debt will essentially be working for the government or the banks they are paying back loan to. you see I feel sorry for all these new grads, they are screwed, they think its easy to pay back these loans but once your out and feel the pressure of that $3000 or more loan bill every month they are going to know that they got ripped off. good luck with that.

100% agree. If you look at other branches of healthcare it is the exact same with seeping corporate control. As more and more young dentists choose or are forced to take jobs with large (and growing in size and number) chains they could easily take over the industry. Walmart has at least one dental clinic opened with something like 100 more planned.

I think it's pretty much inevitable that all healthcare will be government funded and corporation controlled in the not so distant future.

And once wages are controlled and lowered by these corporations the financial appeal of these jobs will wain...and that's when the best and the brightest start doing something else...and that's when THE REAL TROUBLE BEGINS

or maybe my tin foil hat is just a little too tight

 

[BlueToothHunter]

Dort-ort, did you ever apply to oral surgery programs? Still practicing?

 

[bigbadaboom]

100% agree. If you look at other branches of healthcare it is the exact same with seeping corporate control. As more and more young dentists choose or are forced to take jobs with large (and growing in size and number) chains they could easily take over the industry. Walmart has at least one dental clinic opened with something like 100 more planned.

I think it's pretty much inevitable that all healthcare will be government funded and corporation controlled in the not so distant future.

And once wages are controlled and lowered by these corporations the financial appeal of these jobs will wain...and that's when the best and the brightest start doing something else...and that's when THE REAL TROUBLE BEGINS

or maybe my tin foil hat is just a little too tight

when these mid-level providers(who can do drill, fill, extractions, dentures, other irreversible procedures) come around, the big corporate offices can just hire them. New DDS grads can basically say goodbye to finding work. The difference is that these mid-level providers aka "dental therapists" don't have the kind of debt and years of time invested in the schools.

it's just going to be like optometry and pharmacy in Walmarts.

 

[bigbadaboom]

state dental board just need to make sure this kind of things won't happen.

regulation idea like -- only DDS can own dental offices. Each DDS can own up to 2 offices for example, or another wording, each DDS must spend at least 50% of time in each office that he owns.

 

[thewobblytooth]

i highly doubt that dental therapists will forge a new era of dentistry and be able to do things that dentists go to school for 4+ years on top of their university level education. Dental therapists will screw themselves over and hopefully ADA and local state chapters stop them from ever growing. Hopefully the programs that are already existing in Alaska and Minnesota will fail and they will think of better ways to provide oral health care to those states. I really don't want to see dental therapists gaining any more traction than the few that they already have. This is just a bad idea.

 

[thewingman]

So DHAT is no longer being funded by the federal government. However, foundations, such as Kellogg, are funding pilot programs to create dental therapists.

 

[thewobblytooth]

So DHAT is no longer being funded by the federal government. However, foundations, such as Kellogg, are funding pilot programs to create dental therapists.

 

[yappy]

WHy dont these privite firms provide scholarship to dental students to work in underserved areas? bah.

 

[bikedoc]

And the problem is only going to get bigger. Why? as more and more for profit Dental schools open, more and more dentists there are which will lower that $120K salary. The chains know this and will take advantage and lower the pay because they know if one dentist don't like it, there are hundreds other waiting in line to take the job. All for what - so they can pay back the loans. So these new grads with 300K+ debt will essentially be working for the government or the banks they are paying back loan to. you see I feel sorry for all these new grads, they are screwed, they think its easy to pay back these loans but once your out and feel the pressure of that $3000 or more loan bill every month they are going to know that they got ripped off. good luck with that.

I have been hearing this type of doomsday rhetoric in many different disciplines for as long as I can remember, but this is the United States, I believe that if you are honest, hard working, and savvy, you will always be successful.

 

[bigbadaboom]

I have been hearing this type of doomsday rhetoric in many different disciplines for as long as I can remember, but this is the United States, I believe that if you are honest, hard working, and savvy, you will always be successful.

i like your optimism. it sounds just like the american dream.

don't let socialists run the government and we'll be ok. But don't let big corporates run the businesses either. We the dentists need to take charge and not let big corporations -i.e. insurance companies, for-profit schools, chain dental offices, run our lives. It seems to be exactly this way and more so at present day.

 

[El Salvaje]

Yeah so it seems like the basic summary of what I'm hearing from some of you folks is that not only are the days where a successful GP with 10+ years under their belt can make a 250K+ income on four days a week owning their own practice are over BUT that even those of us who went to "cheap" instate schools will be living hand to mouth once corporate dentistry takes over and will be competeing with some inferior brand of para professional who do the same work for half the pay?

I don't believe it.

How did this profession fall from grace so hard that THIS would be our future? Is this thread just bringing out the "doomsdayers" or are the days where being a dentist is no longer the envy of the healthcare world in terms of our lifestyle and pay over? I just want honest speculations (not written in stone answers obviously) from the people out there hustling to make an honest buck in this profession.

And speaking of honesty, as for how ANYONE involved in these for profit dental schools can sleep at night is beyond me considering they are probably privy to all the information you all provided above. I have classmates with families and for them the only light at the end of the tunnel is the fact that they will eventually be able to relieve the yolk of their formidable debt with a healthy future income which not only allows them more financial freedom but also REWARDS them for all of their hardwork/sacrifice. I run meetings and talk to waaayyyy too many pre-physicians and pre-dentists who feel guilty reaping any sort of a monetary advantage over their peers who lacked the intelligence, the drive and the sheer fortitude to give the rest of the world a higher quality of living through their services. I almost don't want to accept what I'm reading in some of these posts but if they are in fact true then I guess it's time to finally wake up, put on my persimissim glasses and see the world for what it really is. EIther way I really appreciate your replies people.

 

[live]

Numerous people (and I mean like at least 1/2) in my class already have jobs lined up to start working in 3 months making bw 80-115,000 for their base salary (prod percentage on top of that for most contracts). Yes some things aren't what they seem in certain places but if I wasn't specializing I would feel fine getting a job. Do good work and you'll be fine. Maybe some doomsday people on here are realizing that private dental educations do nothing for you other than give you a lot more debt. Who cares about the name or degree on the wall... Go to a good state school with cheap tuition (a lot of southern schools) and work hard. Just my .02 (but I'm not saying this won't change... I agree with the above poster in that we must make every effort to keep dentistry away from corp America and big government)

 

[Lethstang]

To make the really good money as a GP you have to be a practice owner (thought there are exceptions, top associates in corporate dentistry ive heard can rake in over 250k pretax)...which means learning the business aspect while in school so you can hit the ground running once you graduate...by associating a year and buying a nice small practice (400-500k gross production a year) which, if ran well, will put you on the road to financial freedom. Youll make a comfy living even with paying your student loans and your practice note.

 

[mlle]

250k from day one is overly optimistic.

try 50k the first year in California, if you're even lucky enough to find a job as a recent grad <3 yrs out of school.

So sad but true. I am working at 3 offices to make up a 4-5 day week and am paid marginally more than a hygienist.

Came out with a third of a million dollar dschool loan at about 8%. It makes no sense.

Trying to figure out a better long term plan. Opinions on that are welcome.

 

[flapaTron]

So sad but true. I am working at 3 offices to make up a 4-5 day week and am paid marginally more than a hygienist.

Came out with a third of a million dollar dschool loan at about 8%. It makes no sense.

Trying to figure out a better long term plan. Opinions on that are welcome.

leave california and move to a less saturated market.

 

[green11782]

Unfortunately corporate systems have and are trying their best to control this profession as they have in numerous other professions already.
However, the answer to the original question lies in the stem of it all. If you want to "immunize" yourself from being a part of the cattle herded by corporate system, Yes absolutely you should specialize. The corporate system has somewhat of control on specialities already but never will they have enough control over specialists. Specialists do and will always earn on average double that of a generalist
-Food for Thought-

 

[El Salvaje]

Immunize yourself from being part of the cattle herded by corporations? When does it ever end? Even the "lowly" GP is in the top .001% of the nation considering how competitive they had to be in high school to get into a good undergrad program and then in undergrad where they were vying for a spot against other highly motivated/intelligent candidates across the nation. It seems like there really is no finish line when it comes to climbing this so called ladder of immunity because eventually everyone's services will be devalued, it's only a matter of time. Not so long ago (as in at the time I started college in '05) if you were a General Dentist you had no worries about finding a job or paying back loans and maintaining an above average living. Now you need to be in the top of your class to get into a residency and specialize for that privilege? I'm assuming in a few more years you'd have to be the top gun in your residency to get a fellowship for the same standard of living and then a few more years down the road the top person in your fellowship to get into a good ULTRA fellowship and so on. I just can't believe it. Either this is more doomsday prophecy or dentistry as an organization is now becoming the living hell that I hear physicians refer to as the practice of medicine. I apologize if I sound frustrated and I'm not taking it out on anyone personally but if the pessimists are right then there has to be a line where the providers stand up for themselves and declare the tuitions are too high, the pay is not enough and there is enough supply but not enough incentive to spread it out.

 

[yappy]

I dont know about the specifics of dentistry or medicine or X. But, a good rule to life is that if it's "THAT GOOD" it wont be forever. This is especially true when people feel that they need the service/product. I'm not saying medicine or dentistry is a bad deal - but dont think anything in life is going to be easy (forever).

Immunize yourself from being part of the cattle herded by corporations? When does it ever end? Even the "lowly" GP is in the top .001% of the nation considering how competitive they had to be in high school to get into a good undergrad program and then in undergrad where they were vying for a spot against other highly motivated/intelligent candidates across the nation. It seems like there really is no finish line when it comes to climbing this so called ladder of immunity because eventually everyone's services will be devalued, it's only a matter of time. Not so long ago (as in at the time I started college in '05) if you were a General Dentist you had no worries about finding a job or paying back loans and maintaining an above average living. Now you need to be in the top of your class to get into a residency and specialize for that privilege? I'm assuming in a few more years you'd have to be the top gun in your residency to get a fellowship for the same standard of living and then a few more years down the road the top person in your fellowship to get into a good ULTRA fellowship and so on. I just can't believe it. Either this is more doomsday prophecy or dentistry as an organization is now becoming the living hell that I hear physicians refer to as the practice of medicine. I apologize if I sound frustrated and I'm not taking it out on anyone personally but if the pessimists are right then there has to be a line where the providers stand up for themselves and declare the tuitions are too high, the pay is not enough and there is enough supply but not enough incentive to spread it out.

 

[L8DYV]

As dental professionals, we need to serve not only those who can afford our services, but also those who are far reaching for our services. By providing access to care to the underserved, we fill those gaps which would otherwise be filled supposedly by the "dental therapist" or "midlevel provider." It is the right thing to do and that is what you signed up for. Life can be demanding, expensive and many pressures can influence our actions, but always remember our white coat obligations as health providers.

 

[yappy]

Is it fair though to charge working people full price then give our services away to people who are not responsible or simply dont want to / cannot afford it?

All too often people CAN afford it but they blow money on cigs, fun, cable, or just living beyond their means in general. Why accomidate that?

 

[Firm]

Yeah so it seems like the basic summary of what I'm hearing from some of you folks is that not only are the days where a successful GP with 10+ years under their belt can make a 250K+ income on four days a week owning their own practice are over BUT that even those of us who went to "cheap" instate schools will be living hand to mouth once corporate dentistry takes over and will be competeing with some inferior brand of para professional who do the same work for half the pay?

I don't believe it.

How did this profession fall from grace so hard that THIS would be our future? Is this thread just bringing out the "doomsdayers" or are the days where being a dentist is no longer the envy of the healthcare world in terms of our lifestyle and pay over? I just want honest speculations (not written in stone answers obviously) from the people out there hustling to make an honest buck in this profession.

And speaking of honesty, as for how ANYONE involved in these for profit dental schools can sleep at night is beyond me considering they are probably privy to all the information you all provided above. I have classmates with families and for them the only light at the end of the tunnel is the fact that they will eventually be able to relieve the yolk of their formidable debt with a healthy future income which not only allows them more financial freedom but also REWARDS them for all of their hardwork/sacrifice. I run meetings and talk to waaayyyy too many pre-physicians and pre-dentists who feel guilty reaping any sort of a monetary advantage over their peers who lacked the intelligence, the drive and the sheer fortitude to give the rest of the world a higher quality of living through their services. I almost don't want to accept what I'm reading in some of these posts but if they are in fact true then I guess it's time to finally wake up, put on my persimissim glasses and see the world for what it really is. EIther way I really appreciate your replies people.

What I have found is that there are plenty of sharks in the sea waiting to loan you money at high interest so that you will slave to pay them the rest of your life. Don't think it's just the student loans either, this is just the newest game. The dentist "lifestyle" that you are trying to attain is still possible but now you must be even more cautious of these sharks. I'll go through all of the various sharks that you will encounter from the time that you graduate high school.

Shark #1: 4 years colleges. Yeah, I wrote it. They have brand new stadium expansions, dorms, rock climbing walls, wifi, fancy gyms. You pay for all this BS with loans.

Shark #2: Student loans. Specifically private students loans. The schools have a pimp, excuse me, a financial "aid" person that will assist you in getting these easy no credit check loans for 18 year olds.

Shark #3: Testing (DAT). You must take a test and be prepared to take this test so that you can get into the right school. $$$$$$$.

Shark #4: Applications: Why not extort more money from students that can get easy loans just for applying to schools. This should really be #1 and 5.

Shark #5: Whoever you buy books from. They charge you $200 for the book and give you $20 back at the end of the semeter. You take that $20 because you need the gas money.

Shark #1,2,4. While in dental school, you have to buy tons of supplies, take out more loans and possibly apply for a residency.

Shark #6: Banks. They will loan you tons of money to open an office because you are DOCTOR.

Shark #7: Consultants: They know that you don't have a clue as to how to build an office and they know that you can get loans. Building an office is relatively easy and can be cheap if you do it right.

Shark #8: The dental supply company. They will try to convince you that you will need everything under the sun in order to have a successful office.

Shark #9: Everybody's "friend" that knows how to do what you need done. This person has no idea how to do what needs to be done but they want money too. They will tell you that they can fix or build anything and then just try.

Keep your office small, don't run pipes under concrete, rent/buy an existing office that someone moved out of, buy used equipment, piecemeal projects.

 

[sarah_bellum]

Is it fair though to charge working people full price then give our services away to people who are not responsible or simply dont want to / cannot afford it?

All too often people CAN afford it but they blow money on cigs, fun, cable, or just living beyond their means in general. Why accomidate that?

Yes. It's fair, professionally responsible, and the right thing to do. Accommodate it because you care more about the guy who's trying to do it right but doesn't have the means, even if it means that occasionally someone takes advantage of you. You'll still have way more money than you know what to do with, unless you're a complete idiot, and you'll have been a net benefit for the world.

 

[crew09]

I wonder if the solution is for more dentists to adopt Sarah_Bellum's balanced approach. It certainly makes more sense than the alternate short sighted approach.

 

[mr24]

Yes. It's fair, professionally responsible, and the right thing to do. Accommodate it because you care more about the guy who's trying to do it right but doesn't have the means, even if it means that occasionally someone takes advantage of you. You'll still have way more money than you know what to do with, unless you're a complete idiot, and you'll have been a net benefit for the world.

can you define "more money than you know what to do with"?

 

[sarah_bellum]

can you define "more money than you know what to do with"?

If you have to ask, you're so far beyond getting the point that it'll almost certainly derail this thread to continue the conversation. Agree to disagree.

 

[Tekado]

If you have to ask, you're so far beyond getting the point that it'll almost certainly derail this thread to continue the conversation. Agree to disagree.

Amen

 

[mr24]

settle down everyone. i was sincerely asking how much money she thinks this is. this number is different for everyone. just curious to see others view.

 

[Sublimazing]

settle down everyone. i was sincerely asking how much money she thinks this is. this number is different for everyone. just curious to see others view.

Yeah I agree with you...that was a pretty benign question. Dentistry is all of our jobs, anyone who just assumes they'll have "more money than they know what to do with" is naive or not being smart about their financial planning IMHO.

 

[yappy]

can you define "more money than you know what to do with"?

Enough money that I can live a comfortable lifestyle off of the interest of the money that I have. A sum large enough that there is not a "life event" that would cause me financial stress. As a prereq to this I would have no debts.

I dont think I'll ever attain this but that is what I would define "more money than I know what to do with" as.

And I disagree with the notion that we should care more about other peoples well being that we pay (by not billing) for others medical care.

 

[duknowme]

Enough money that I can live a comfortable lifestyle off of the interest of the money that I have. A sum large enough that there is not a "life event" that would cause me financial stress. As a prereq to this I would have no debts.

I dont think I'll ever attain this but that is what I would define "more money than I know what to do with" as.

And I disagree with the notion that we should care more about other peoples well being that we pay (by not billing) for others medical care.

I agree on two points that you made.
1.I am not sure what "more money that you know what to do with" means either, I know that More money that you know what to do with is definately not 200K/year with a 250K loan payment.
2. Why is there this stigma that you should not be able to deny anyone any of your services based on money? I have heard this argument before that since it has to do with your life and well-being it is not fair to make people pay. Well, food is not free. Pretty sure that is important to life and well-being as well. Or am I just a heartless SOB.

I used to feel differently about this until I spent more time in the hospital. I have come to realize that many of the poeple being supported by entitlement programs are not doing anything to help themselves. They are also doing many things to make themselves unhealthy. Take for example Trauma patients. I hate to make gross generalizations but such a large percentage of these people are drug addicts or dealers, drunks and criminals that it is hard to feel compassion for these people who bring on themselves the crappy things that happen to them. It is almost like trauma is a preventable disease. Now I know, I know, this is definately not the case for all trauma patients. I have seen many horrible things happen to very good people.
I guess what I am trying to say is healthcare does not have to be free. I am not against helping those who are truly unfortunate. I also don't have a solution to the problem either. Just saying, there is no reason we should feel bad about charging for our services.

 

[yappy]

You bring up great points. I too shared the optimistic opinions like those posters above till I started working in prehospital medicine. That changed my view very quickly lol. In some ways it may have jaded me a little too.

One important thing to point out is that no one (not even people who are lower income) works for free. When they go to work and put in their 40hrs/wk they expect to be paid. Health care is no different. You have a marketable skill that is in demand.

Now, why is it they should work for their payment then expect yours to be denyied or heavily reduced? In order for me to buy a cheaper home should construction workers take a 40% pay cut? Should food but sold to me at 50% of its market price?

The truth is people work (or somtimes receive help from the gov) in order to pay for things. However, they will gladly take advantage of you & will most always think you're too expensive. I say better to receive a fair days wage for a fair days work.


PS: Everything has an opportunity cost. If you spend money going out to eat or by living in too expensive of an appartment, Iphone, or cable, you're spending money that should have been saved for health emergencies. No one can make you save but you should experience the consequences (good or bad) for your actions.

I used to feel differently about this until I spent more time in the hospital. I have come to realize that many of the poeple being supported by entitlement programs are not doing anything to help themselves. They are also doing many things to make themselves unhealthy.

 

[yojimbo53]

As someone who has been searching for and looked into over 20 ortho practices to purchase in the past 2 years, I can say not one of them was anywhere close to 30-35% overhead.

Ortho/endo/omfs can get down to the 30-35% range, which on a 1m grossing practice is a bump of 200ish k a year take home pre tax.

 

[Lethstang]

As someone who has been searching for and looked into over 20 ortho practices to purchase in the past 2 years, I can say not one of them was anywhere close to 30-35% overhead.

what were they around?

 

[charlestweed]

what were they around?

If I charged $5-6k/case (the national average fee) and had 15 new starts every month, my overhead would be around 30%. I don't think I can charge such high fee in California and expect to have 15-20 new starts every month. My overheads for 2 of my 3 offices are between 40-45% because my fees are much lower than the national average.

A few years ago I bought an existing ortho office that had 70+ % overhead. When I took over, I had to let all (but one) of the existing staff go and stopped buying supplies from expensive supply companies such as 3M, GAC, Ormco. I am only able to reduce the overhead to 55-60% because the office rent is too high (due to larger square footage).

 

[Crew07]

Exactly my point. Plus if you took out loans wouldn't you also be accumulating interest in those extra years of residency as well? I don't know the average hours worked by each specialty but I would ASSUME that GPs have the potential to make a lot more per hour than specialists especially OMS docs. It's like how many people see that a neurosurgeon makes 500K a year while a GP dentist makes 200K. What they don't factor in is that there is more training required, more debt accumulation, more stress and more hours worked per week for the neurosurgeon to make his salary than it is for the GP to make thiers. Anybody have the average work hours per week by specialty? Does anybody know how much of an opportunity cost debt accumulation through residency is? If you can shed some light on this then I'd really appreciate your input.

the problem that everyone is missing is overhead. GP 70% overhead... an Endo can have it close to 30% ... so even thought the average dds can mke 220k a year.. it takes a 40 hour week. The ortho, endo and pedo can do a 30hour week and make 300k seeing less patients per day=less stress.

 

[TJNova2011]

the problem that everyone is missing is overhead. GP 70% overhead... an Endo can have it close to 30% ... so even thought the average dds can mke 220k a year.. it takes a 40 hour week. The ortho, endo and pedo can do a 30hour week and make 300k seeing less patients per day=less stress.

pedo seeing less patients than a GP???? where is this ??? dagone

 

[shuckin wizzies]

I've gotten somewhat close to the endodontist that I refer to. One day we were taking finances. He gave me a pretty clear explanation of the earning potential. His daily overhead is about $1,000 (2 assistants, 1 front desk, 3 chairs). So, he covers overhead with his first molar RCT. On a good day, he will do 6-8 molars (or equivalent in surgeries). That means about $5,000 to $7,000 profit on a good day. He works 4 days per week so I calculate $20k to $28k each week. If he takes 2 weeks off per year, he is bringing home about a cool million in a year. I later asked him about my calculations, and he said that not all weeks are very good, and it was a little less than that. I didn't want to pry too much, but I figure he is bringing home about $800k before taxes.

Remember with the stats you see posted, a lot of older endodontists work 2-3 days per week, and aren't busting their butt like they used to. Some of these younger guys are working 4-5 days per week and are trying to pack their schedules.

In my opinion, YES, it is a great financial decision to specialize.

 

[CaliDDS1986]

Problem is most molar endos are done in multiple visits. Add in calcified canals, retreats, followups, and the patient that wants an implant instead you can see how in an ideal world endos make that much. Unfortunately, we live in a not ideal world.

I've gotten somewhat close to the endodontist that I refer to. One day we were taking finances. He gave me a pretty clear explanation of the earning potential. His daily overhead is about $1,000 (2 assistants, 1 front desk, 3 chairs). So, he covers overhead with his first molar RCT. On a good day, he will do 6-8 molars (or equivalent in surgeries). That means about $5,000 to $7,000 profit on a good day. He works 4 days per week so I calculate $20k to $28k each week. If he takes 2 weeks off per year, he is bringing home about a cool million in a year. I later asked him about my calculations, and he said that not all weeks are very good, and it was a little less than that. I didn't want to pry too much, but I figure he is bringing home about $800k before taxes.

Remember with the stats you see posted, a lot of older endodontists work 2-3 days per week, and aren't busting their butt like they used to. Some of these younger guys are working 4-5 days per week and are trying to pack their schedules.

In my opinion, YES, it is a great financial decision to specialize.

 

[Shunwei]

Problem is most molar endos are done in multiple visits. Add in calcified canals, retreats, followups, and the patient that wants an implant instead you can see how in an ideal world endos make that much. Unfortunately, we live in a not ideal world.

Agreed, endo is a profitable specialty by virtue of their low overhead but I think very few endodontists can make 800k before taxes. It also depends on location as well. GPs do 80% of all endos and most referrals to endodontists are of the true headache, high-liability variety: retreats, high-calficification cases, terrible anatomy, difficult access, so forth. Implants are making an inroad on the specialty as well. It's hard to convince some patients of the virtue of saving their tooth at $1800-$2000 for a Rct/Bu/Crown when for the same fee one can also get an implant, which is why many endodontists are starting to place their own implants as well.

I think specializing overall might be profitable but only for some over others. Ortho used to be probably the best, but I think its goldent days are over due to supply-demand shifts. Pros requires a special personality and judged purely from a financial perspective might be a wash, and many pros specialists end up working as general dentists in reality. Pedo is hot right now, but is highly dependent on insurance and Medicaid and I am not sure how stable that is in the long-term. Endo is OK, but implants will cut into it. I think the best specialty overall purely from a financial perspective is still OS. If I were younger and finished dental school at the average age I would have pursued it for sure.

 

[CaliDDS1986]

Sorry your also saying their overhead is 16%. An ideal endo office has overhead 35-40% so your numbers may be off too. I just want to make it clearer to people reading that these figures are very off.

I've gotten somewhat close to the endodontist that I refer to. One day we were taking finances. He gave me a pretty clear explanation of the earning potential. His daily overhead is about $1,000 (2 assistants, 1 front desk, 3 chairs). So, he covers overhead with his first molar RCT. On a good day, he will do 6-8 molars (or equivalent in surgeries). That means about $5,000 to $7,000 profit on a good day. He works 4 days per week so I calculate $20k to $28k each week. If he takes 2 weeks off per year, he is bringing home about a cool million in a year. I later asked him about my calculations, and he said that not all weeks are very good, and it was a little less than that. I didn't want to pry too much, but I figure he is bringing home about $800k before taxes.

Remember with the stats you see posted, a lot of older endodontists work 2-3 days per week, and aren't busting their butt like they used to. Some of these younger guys are working 4-5 days per week and are trying to pack their schedules.

In my opinion, YES, it is a great financial decision to specialize.

 

[bishbish777]

How does the fact that something like 50% of dentists are over 45 factor into this impending "doom"? Seems to me that an excess of dentists will be retiring once the economy recovers and they make a little more money. If not, well...they can't live forever, I suppose.

Don't the age demographics really favor the newly grads in, say, 5-10 years?

 

[EJsDad]

How does the fact that something like 50% of dentists are over 45 factor into this impending "doom"? Seems to me that an excess of dentists will be retiring once the economy recovers and they make a little more money. If not, well...they can't live forever, I suppose.

Don't the age demographics really favor the newly grads in, say, 5-10 years?

I think they have opened 3 dental schools in the last 2 years, and many (my program included) have significantly increased enrollment. I don't care if dentistry is top heavy, it only makes sense that at a point the field will be saturated. I chose to specialize because I knew I would be happy everyday going to work, when it all boils down to it, isn't that what matters most?

 

[88845]

If I were younger and finished dental school at the average age I would have pursued it for sure.

I'm curious about this statement. How old were you when you graduated and, unless you were over 40 or so, why would you let that stop your pursuit of OMS if that's what you wanted?

 

[gryffindor]

How does the fact that something like 50% of dentists are over 45 factor into this impending "doom"? Seems to me that an excess of dentists will be retiring once the economy recovers and they make a little more money. If not, well...they can't live forever, I suppose.

Don't the age demographics really favor the newly grads in, say, 5-10 years?

That's the story they told me when I started dental school. That was the year 2000, 13 years ago. Still waiting for that massive wave of retirement.

What they don't tell you is that dentists never retire.