Does your medical school have sickening liberal indoctrination?

[Crow King]

I think they all do.

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[Morsetlis]

Yes and it comes in the form of a 1-credit class where you learn to read the professor's mind to find the right answers on the test.

 

[rockyrado]

I think they all do.

In my humble opinion, anyone who complains about liberal indoctrination in higher education is an oversensitive dbag, but, as a pre-med, I know my opinion counts for nothing.

protip: you don't have to believe what they believe

 

[MilkmanAl]

In my humble opinion, anyone who complains about liberal indoctrination in higher education is an oversensitive dbag, but, as a pre-med, I know my opinion counts for nothing.

True, but I'll echo it to give you some merit. That said, there is certainly a whole lot of carebear nonsense going on in the first two years of med school that I could do without. If you're not at least able to feign empathy at this point, you're probably antisocial.

 

[HumbleMD]

Wow, you really haven't paid much attention to medicine lately, have you? Mine is, and I love it. We're full of caring, compassionate people who wear our hearts on our white-coat sleeves; I wouldn't have it any other way.

You should take a peek at the AMAs positions on a number of issues including healthcare reform, transgender rights, and even gay marriage. It'll keep you up at night .

Too bad medicine isn't like law. Although who knows, maybe someday there'll be a Liberty University Medical School. I wonder if it would admit women?

 

[MrBird]

I love liberal indoctrination! I'm progressive!

 

[dr zaius]

I'd like an example of this liberal indoctrination. Are you talking about advocating for adequate care for gays and minorities?

Political topics usually stay outside of the classroom at my school. We save that for AMA meetings.

 

[Slack3r]

Wow, you really haven't paid much attention to medicine lately, have you? Mine is, and I love it. We're full of caring, compassionate people who wear our hearts on our white-coat sleeves; I wouldn't have it any other way.

Your dental school, OTOH, is full of tools and dbags.

 

[Rollo]

Political topics usually stay outside of the classroom at my school. We save that for AMA meetings.

This is how it should be done.

My school does a decent job at keeping political topics outside of the classroom/regular lecture hours by having after-hours special lectures on it.

I don't need a professor with an obvious bias to tell me how I need to be more caring and sensitive about patients. Like MilkMan said, if you can't feign empathy at this point, then you shouldn't even be here in the first place.

For some reason, quite a few professors/administrators (at my school, anyway) think that we're all 8 years old who need lessons on basic mannerisms like respecting people despite any fundamental differences that may or may not exist.

 

[HumbleMD]

Your dental school, OTOH, is full of tools and dbags.

Precisely. The trickle-downers in it for the dough, go into dentistry. The few that accidentally end up in medicine usually get an MBA from Wharton. They're easy to spot.

 

[rbnsafsadgf]

I think they all do.

What exactly do you mean by liberal indoctrination? I am interested in hearing what you mean.

That doctors aren't gods?
The health care system hurts lots of people?
That there are health care disparities?
That not everybody is like you?
Patients aren't entirely (individually) to blame for their problems?
That your hard-earned education is a public good of sorts?

Learning about how the world is, isn't liberal indoctrination. You are free to have a theory-based world view, but not to practice evidence-free medicine.

 

[MrBird]

What exactly do you mean by liberal indoctrination? I am interested in hearing what you mean.

That doctors aren't gods?
The health care system hurts lots of people?
That there are health care disparities?
That not everybody is like you?
Patients aren't entirely (individually) to blame for their problems?
That your hard-earned education is a public good of sorts?

Learning about how the world is, isn't liberal indoctrination. You are free to have a theory-based world view, but not to practice evidence-free medicine.

Does every comment made on SDN have to have a biting tone?

 

[Rollo]

What exactly do you mean by liberal indoctrination? I am interested in hearing what you mean.

That doctors aren't gods?
The health care system hurts lots of people?
That there are health care disparities?
That not everybody is like you?
Patients aren't entirely (individually) to blame for their problems?
That your hard-earned education is a public good of sorts?

Learning about how the world is, isn't liberal indoctrination. You are free to have a theory-based world view, but not to practice evidence-free medicine.

Do we really need lectures on those topics that are so common sense? What more could a professor with a liberal agenda possibly teach me that I can't learn/decipher on my own from my experiences and interactions with the world?

Seriously, come up with some deeper and more intellectually stimulating topics than something that sounds like it should be on a Lifetime TV Special.

 

[Mace1370]

What exactly do you mean by liberal indoctrination? I am interested in hearing what you mean.

That doctors aren't gods?
The health care system hurts lots of people?
That there are health care disparities?
That not everybody is like you?
Patients aren't entirely (individually) to blame for their problems?
That your hard-earned education is a public good of sorts?

Learning about how the world is, isn't liberal indoctrination. You are free to have a theory-based world view, but not to practice evidence-free medicine.

I presume he means pushing:

- Universal Healthcare
- The idea that healthcare is a right
- That making a lot of money is "greedy" or "wrong" or "not the right reason to want to be a doctor"

Those are ideas that are traditionally associated with leftist philosophy.

 

[DrYoda]

What exactly do you mean by liberal indoctrination? I am interested in hearing what you mean.

That doctors aren't gods?
The health care system hurts lots of people?
That there are health care disparities?
That not everybody is like you?
Patients aren't entirely (individually) to blame for their problems?
That your hard-earned education is a public good of sorts?

Learning about how the world is, isn't liberal indoctrination. You are free to have a theory-based world view, but not to practice evidence-free medicine.

 

[HumbleMD]

I presume he means pushing:

- Universal Healthcare
- The idea that healthcare is a right
- That making a lot of money is "greedy" or "wrong" or "not the right reason to want to be a doctor"

Those are ideas that are traditionally associated with leftist philosophy.

It's not wrong, it's just stupid. I pity the people that did. Did they not see the way reimbursements were moving?

 

[Mace1370]

It's not wrong, it's just stupid. I pity the people that did. Did they not see the way reimbursements were moving?

I don't think it is a stupid reason. Money gets you a lot of things in life. I highly doubt that it is the sole reason for many who profess it. Besides, why do you care about other people's preferences? If they went into medicine for the money and are happy then more power to them, in my opinion.

 

[HumbleMD]

I don't think it is a stupid reason. Money gets you a lot of things in life. I highly doubt that it is the sole reason for many who profess it. Besides, why do you care about other people's preferences? If they went into medicine for the money and are happy then more power to them, in my opinion.

You missed my point. It's a stupid reason to, and I pity those that did, because an MD isn't a particularly good investment anymore given the cost of education and opportunity costs involved, all with shrinking salaries at the end of the tunnel.

The people who got into medicine in medicine are the same ones who are having personal crises of regret in their 4th year and looking at consulting gigs.

High aptitude people with their eyes on the almighty dollar would be much wiser looking at other careers.

 

[Crow King]

In my humble opinion, anyone who complains about liberal indoctrination in higher education is an oversensitive dbag, but, as a pre-med, I know my opinion counts for nothing.

protip: you don't have to believe what they believe

Your opinion matters to me. I love you like a brother.

 

[Mace1370]

You missed my point. It's a stupid reason to, and I pity those that did, because an MD isn't a particularly good investment anymore given the cost of education and opportunity costs involved, all with shrinking salaries at the end of the tunnel.

High aptitude people with their eyes on the almighty dollar would be much wiser looking at other careers.

And you missed my point. Going into medicine, people rarely have a single reason for their justification of career choice. Physicians make good money, always have and more or less always will (even if this decreases some in the future). A $200-300k/year range is still lively life very well and that's more than realistic given any amount of cuts coming down the pipeline. Citing that as a positive reason to go into medicine isn't stupid.

 

[D elegans]

Our lecturers routinely tell us that making money practicing medicine is morally wrong and we should expect to be wageless slaves of the state.

True story.

 

[rbnsafsadgf]

I presume he means pushing:

- Universal Healthcare
- The idea that healthcare is a right
- That making a lot of money is "greedy" or "wrong" or "not the right reason to want to be a doctor"

Those are ideas that are traditionally associated with leftist philosophy.

What about "Universal Healthcare"? That it works? That is an empirical question.

Health care isn't a usual human right. Positivist rights are problematic for many reasons. I don't like that notion either.

Going into medicine for money isn't greedy, it is misguided. And who the hell is telling you that in school? We get told al the time how specialty choice is a big individual decision with money being part of it. Money hopefully isn't your primary reason for going into medicine at the very least.

 

[rbnsafsadgf]

Our lecturers routinely tell us that making money practicing medicine is morally wrong and we should expect to be wageless slaves of the state.

True story.

I think you may be exaggerating a bit. Our current fee-for-service structure creates some perversive incentives, but I hardly think anybody is arguing for physicians to be forced labor.

 

[Mace1370]

What about "Universal Healthcare"? That it works? That is an empirical question.

Health care isn't a usual human right. Positivist rights are problematic for many reasons. I don't like that notion either.

Going into medicine for money isn't greedy, it is misguided. And who the hell is telling you that in school? We get told al the time how specialty choice is a big individual decision with money being part of it. Money hopefully isn't your primary reason for going into medicine at the very least.

There are teachers at my school who advocate that universal healthcare is the best system for a variety of reasons: ethically, cost, etc.

There are also teachers who have advocated that healthcare is a right, as in it is unethical to deny someone care for essentially any reason or situation.

These are not things I believe in, so I'm not going to explain their arguments for them, but that was the jist of it.

 

[rockyrado]

Your opinion matters to me. I love you like a brother.

Friends forever

 

[MossPoh]

I've found that whenever conservative students at my school are presented with data from neutral sources they say it is an opinion and liberal bias. I always thought liberals were supposed to be whiny, but conservatives are winning the prize lately. They never have an open mind and ,frankly, seem to suck at practice management whenever I talk to them. Yes, choosing a specialty on money only is wrong. That doesn't mean considering money is evil, but that it is setting you up for failure and crap care of your patients if it is the core motivator.

We are one of the only countries that talks about how awesome we are and then actively disregard people who don't have a fair chance to begin with.

 

[DeadCactus]

I don't know when indoctrination became the term to describe "being left un-sheltered from the opinions of fellow adults and professionals", but it certainly seems a bit melodramatic...

 

[SGuttenberg]

If medical schools were really liberal then they wouldn't let the homophobic misogynist ******s in the christian medical and dental association have meetings on school property. These are the same *****s who vote republican and want poor black babies to starve to death because apparently that's what jesus would want.

 

[Crow King]

I don't know when indoctrination became the term to describe "being left un-sheltered from the opinions of fellow adults and professionals", but it certainly seems a bit melodramatic...

Indoctrination is the buzz word that conservatives use which is why I used it. Everyone can get the jist of what this thread is about.

The word is totally applicable for what liberals do to the undergrad, since their minds are still young and malleable (relatively).

The proper word here is bullying.

 

[D elegans]

These are the same *****s who vote republican and want poor black babies to starve to death because apparently that's what jesus would want.

I thought the RNC was considering removing this as a platform issue this election season?

 

[surftheiop]

Indoctrination is the buzz word that conservatives use which is why I used it. Everyone can get the jist of what this thread is about.

The word is totally applicable for what liberals do to the undergrad, since their minds are still young and malleable (relatively).

The proper word here is bullying.

Is that you Glen Beck? Shouldnt you be stocking up on gold bullion and guns?

 

[Crow King]

If medical schools were really liberal then they wouldn't let the homophobic misogynist ******s in the christian medical and dental association have meetings on school property. These are the same *****s who vote republican and want poor black babies to starve to death because apparently that's what jesus would want.

I really hope you are not German.

 

[Crow King]

Is that you Glen Beck? Shouldnt you be stocking up on gold bullion and guns?

No. I can't stand Mormons.

 

[HumbleMD]

Indoctrination is the buzz word that conservatives use which is why I used it. Everyone can get the jist of what this thread is about.

The word is totally applicable for what liberals do to the undergrad, since their minds are still young and malleable (relatively).

The proper word here is bullying.

As opposed to what preachers, teachers in a Christian school, and parents do to their children? Have you seen the movie Jesus camp? That sure looked a lot more like indoctrination to me.

This is a silly and inflammatory thread (on both sides of the aisle now - thanks Guttenberg). If you hate the solutions/opinions/facts your professors are teaching, then excel, sacrifice the big bucks for an academic career instead, and become a conservative professor at a med school.

 

[Crow King]

As opposed to what preachers, teachers in a Christian school, and parents do to their children? Have you seen the movie Jesus camp? That sure looked a lot more like indoctrination to me.

I've never had to deal with any of this. Only liberal bull****.

This is a silly and inflammatory thread (on both sides of the aisle now - thanks Guttenberg). If you hate the solutions/opinions/facts your professors are teaching, then excel, sacrifice the big bucks for an academic career instead, and become a conservative professor at a med school.

My problems have always and only been with people at the administrative level.

Also, I'm not conservative.

 

[HumbleMD]

I've never had to deal with any of this. Only liberal bull****.



My problems have always and only been with people at the administrative level.

Also, I'm not conservative.

Fine then. You're own "libertarian" views. You'll have to go into Optho then, I guess. Regardless:

It's only "indoctrination" or "bullying" because it's facts and opinions you don't share or care to believe.

 

[Crow King]

Fine then. You're own "libertarian" views.

I'm at a loss to explain how you got into medical school considering your grammar skills.

It's only "indoctrination" or "bullying" because it's facts and opinions you don't share or care to believe.

Other way around. People try to bully me into submission because I share facts or opinions they do not want to acknowledge.

 

[dr zaius]

I'm at a loss to explain how you got into medical school considering your grammar skills.



Other way around. People try to bully me into submission because I share facts or opinions they do not want to acknowledge.

Way to devolve into insults.

Share some facts with us as to how you are being bullied, please.

 

[Mace1370]

As opposed to what preachers, teachers in a Christian school, and parents do to their children? Have you seen the movie Jesus camp? That sure looked a lot more like indoctrination to me.

This is a silly and inflammatory thread (on both sides of the aisle now - thanks Guttenberg). If you hate the solutions/opinions/facts your professors are teaching, then excel, sacrifice the big bucks for an academic career instead, and become a conservative professor at a med school.

I think that, regardless of the views being espoused by various professors, the OP does have some legitimate concerns in that it is not professional behavior to use graduate lectures as a soap box for personal opinions that are not topical to the lecture.

In my opinion, it is equally bad to state that universal healthcare is the best medical system as it is to say that Clinton was the worst president ever, Jesus is the one true savior, or whatever. None of those topics are ever going to be relevant (except maybe the healthcare one, and if it is topical then fine).

 

[Crow King]

Share some facts with us as to how you are being bullied, please.

Sort of awkward sentence. What exactly are you asking for? Do you want to hear a story from when I've gotten into arguments with people? Or do you want to hear the facts that cause those problems?

 

[Crow King]

Also, I find it ironic that I'm having a discussion about the stiffling of debate with a user who named himself after Dr. Zaius.

 

[dr zaius]

Sort of awkward sentence. What exactly are you asking for? Do you want to hear a story from when I've gotten into arguments with people? Or do you want to hear the facts that cause those problems?

I want to hear exactly how you are being indoctrinated. I want an example of how you're being bullied by liberalism. Offhand comments from professors about healthcare? Redistribution of wealth? Or are you being forced to sit through entire lectures about the joys of socialism?

 

[dr zaius]

Also, I find it ironic that I'm having a discussion about the stiffling of debate with a user who named himself after Dr. Zaius.

The original Planet of the Apes were great

 

[Marcus Brody]

I'd like an example of this liberal indoctrination. Are you talking about advocating for adequate care for gays and minorities?

Political topics usually stay outside of the classroom at my school. We save that for AMA meetings.

Just to name a few...

1) Required volunteerism. Especially when it involves the uninsured and the poor. Helping people is great but in this case it isn't even the goal...the goal is to guilt trip people. Then they will be less resistant to things like positive rights, unfunded mandates, universal insurance, price controls, rationing, taxes, etc, all of which end up hurting more people than they help. But a population of self-loathing guilt ridden doctors won't care, they will readily accept and even encourage it, as long as it means some temporary relief for the needy people they met volunteering. And the more they have sacrificed by volunteering the more justified they feel forcing others to do the same. Of course none of this is actually volunteering and rarely does it even help anyone substantially.

2) Evidence-Based Medicine...which is obviously "geared toward health economists, policymakers and managers, to whom it appears useful for measuring performance and rationing resources."

3) Ethics course topics on disabilities, healthcare finance, public health. And especially the concept of our "duty to care," not for paying patients of course, but for society overall. That's right, you are now indebted to humanity. Apparently when we signed up for med school we thereby alienated any personal goals of our own. As proof, one professor pointed out our participation in the "Doctor Draft," which essentially is involuntary servitude, aka slavery.

4) Research. The unspoken rule that everyone has to do research despite its marginal educational value to us and the even more marginal value of our involvement to any scientific progress. It's not productive, but the brainwashing process is a good initiation to a world where $30-40 billion in funding comes from government grants and the rest comes from the pharmaceutical and device manufacturing industries, which are almost entirely reliant on government patent-protection.

 

[Crow King]

I want to hear exactly how you are being indoctrinated. I want an example of how you're being bullied by liberalism. Offhand comments from professors about healthcare? Redistribution of wealth? Or are you being forced to sit through entire lectures about the joys of socialism?

I already said indoctrination is not the right term. It is bullying. That is really want I wanted to talk about. Although indoctrination is still applicable.

It started in the application process. Every school wants you to write an essay about the diversity you bring to their school or how much you value diversity.

I don't think diversity is a strength at all. Probably the greatest countries (economically, and DEFINITELY scientifically) from Europe and Asia are Germany and Japan. They are historically homogeneous societies with xenophobic tendencies. Even today.

Even skirting this issue on applications for the sake of being more honest on an admissions essay, you are expected to love diversity. I do not. This puts me at odds with a lot of people in the medical community (and liberal academia, and elsewhere of course).

This will get you labeled a racist or white supremacist (although today they are the same thing). The social consequences of this label are enormous.

 

[HumbleMD]

I'm at a loss to explain how you got into medical school considering your grammar skills.

Other way around. People try to bully me into submission because I share facts or opinions they do not want to acknowledge.

Sorry. I share my grammar skills for residency essays and journal publications instead of a web forum. But, really, grammar police? How evilly totalitarian of you.

If you are Mr. Right with all of the facts, then again, I implore you to stop whining and work towards an academic career of your own. You're only calling it bullying and indoctrination because you don't agree.

I swear, medical students are always some of the whiniest kids I know.

P.S. I can't believe you missed my Rand Paul joke.

 

[Marcus Brody]

I already said indoctrination is not the right term. It is bullying. That is really want I wanted to talk about. Although indoctrination is still applicable.

It started in the application process. Every school wants you to write an essay about the diversity you bring to their school or how much you value diversity.

I don't think diversity is a strength at all. Probably the greatest countries (economically, and DEFINITELY scientifically) from Europe and Asia are Germany and Japan. They are historically homogeneous societies with xenophobic tendencies. Even today.

Even skirting this issue on applications for the sake of being more honest on an admissions essay, you are expected to love diversity. I do not. This puts me at odds with a lot of people in the medical community (and liberal academia, and elsewhere of course).

This will get you labeled a racist or white supremacist (although today they are the same thing). The social consequences of this label are enormous.

I don't know about that...there's something to be said for having experience with diversity, especially in this country. Being sheltered puts one at a competitive disadvantage. But we all know that's not the real reason schools do it, and we all know any school that tried to serve a hypothetical demand for a white or even Asian class would get shut down, in contrast to places like Howard.

 

[jdh71]

If medical schools were really liberal then they wouldn't let the homophobic misogynist ******s in the christian medical and dental association have meetings on school property. These are the same *****s who vote republican and want poor black babies to starve to death because apparently that's what jesus would want.

 

[Crow King]

P.S. I can't believe you missed my Rand Paul joke.

I didn't miss it. It just wasn't funny.

If you are Mr. Right with all of the facts, then again, I implore you to stop whining and work towards an academic career of your own. You're only calling it bullying and indoctrination because you don't agree.

I call it that because of the tactics they use. Some people may come to embrace those labels and then they will have made a real enemy.

I swear, medical students are always some of the whiniest kids I know.

Then you must not have noticed all the blacks and hispanics and women and their nonstop bitching about white male domination.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Anyone who says there isn't liberal indoctrination in higher education has their head in the sand. Whether it is the pervasive emphasis on diversity for the sake of diversity, helping only the underserved, pushing universal health care, poo-pooing industrialism or corporations or completely crapping on the idea of concierge practice- it is there.

Some of these things are good some are of dubious merit but no one can deny the socialist underpinnings to all of these ideas. Each of these things has their foundation in the words, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

The bullying comes not only from faculty but also from the students. Anyone who disagrees with these socialist underpinnings gets sneers, insults and mumblings about being heartless (please see the above posts for proof). Perhaps if the ivory tower academics were more worried about pragmatics than pushing ideals we wouldn't have a massive primary care shortage.