Doesn't affirmative action enhance stereotypes in admissions?

[SabaChampion]

As competitive as the Olympics are, each sport limits the number of athletes from a given country who are permitted to compete. It might not be fair to the skater or runner who comes from a country with a very strong bench but it is how we end up with that amazing parade of nations bringing the whole world together.

I know you posted this a while ago Lizzy, but I just wanted to ask you if you can provide any actual data showing that diversity advances medicine more than simply picking the best applicants (highest scores + most interesting ECs)? This is especially relevant to top schools who insist that their primary goal is to train tomorrow's leaders in medicine. I understand when HBC's discriminate, but it makes no sense when top schools do it. Also, if Columbia somehow was flooded with applications from URMs, I doubt they would turn around and say, "You know what? We just don't have enough straight white male applicants. We need to do something about that." You guys are simply embodying the dogma of American academia, that some minorities deserve preferential treatment (African-Americans, Mexican-Americans, etc.), while others (Middle-Easterners, East-Asians, etc.) do not. It wouldn't bother me so much if you guy's would just admit that your goals are analogous to HBCs, but you don't.
If other people want to chime in they are welcome. But I think Lizzy can speak for herself and her colleagues.

Edit: Also, med schools have been trying to turn the tide of certain groups being UIM for decades... and for decades nothing has changed. What makes you think this policy will magically start to work in the near future?

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[Goro]

*sigh* It's all in PubMed...just do a search.

It's not discrimination to say "we think this kid is interesting and will add something to the Class"

I agree that we all need to be better at recruiting minority students.

Med schools are upfront in their desire to produce clinicians for their communities. Here's Albany's mission statement, taken right from their website.

As an academic health sciences center, Albany Medical Center has a mission of providing excellence in medical education, biomedical research, and patient care. Albany Medical Center has a responsibility to:

• Educate medical students, physicians, biomedical students, and other health care professionals from demographically diverse backgrounds in order to meet the future primary and specialty health care needs of the region and nation;

I know you posted this a while ago Lizzy, but I just wanted to ask you if you can provide any actual data showing that diversity advances medicine more than simply picking the best applicants (highest scores + most interesting ECs)? This is especially relevant to top schools who insist that their primary goal is to train tomorrow's leaders in medicine. I understand when HBC's discriminate, but it makes no sense when top schools do it. Also, if Columbia somehow was flooded with applications from URMs, I doubt they would turn around and say, "You know what? We just don't have enough straight white male applicants. We need to do something about that." You guys are simply embodying the dogma of American academia, that some minorities deserve preferential treatment (African-Americans, Mexican-Americans, etc.), while others (Middle-Easterners, East-Asians, etc.) do not. It wouldn't bother me so much if you guy's would just admit that your goals are analogous to HBCs, but you don't.
If other people want to chime in they are welcome. But I think Lizzy can speak for herself and her colleagues.

Edit: Also, med schools have been trying to turn the tide of certain groups being UIM for decades... and for decades nothing has changed. What makes you think this policy will magically start to work in the near future?

 

[SabaChampion]

*sigh* It's all in PubMed...just do a search.

It's not discrimination to say "we think this kid is interesting and will add something to the Class"

I agree that we all need to be better at recruiting minority students.

Med schools are upfront in their desire to produce clinicians for their communities. Here's Albany's mission statement, taken right from their website.

As an academic health sciences center, Albany Medical Center has a mission of providing excellence in medical education, biomedical research, and patient care. Albany Medical Center has a responsibility to:

• Educate medical students, physicians, biomedical students, and other health care professionals from demographically diverse backgrounds in order to meet the future primary and specialty health care needs of the region and nation;

So the fact that a middle class black kid has a better chance of getting into med school than a lower class white kid has nothing to do with skin color? It's simply that the black kid's totally mainstream upbringing is somehow inherently more interesting than the white kids? Somehow I doubt it. I simply wish ADCOMs had the courage and intellectual honesty to admit this.

 

[Goro]

The black kid has travelled a different road than the white kid, simply because of the color of skin. If you don't believe that, ask the people of Ferguson MO, or the family of Sandra Bland.

I notice that it's always the "rich black kid" who on display for anti-URM sentiment, as if is a common admissions demographic for black applicants. My black students have historically been not rich nor middle class.

The chances of the white kid for getting into med school are excellent; for Asian it's outstanding. That's why we have the term ORM.

So the fact that a middle class black kid has a better chance of getting into med school than a lower class white kid has nothing to do with skin color? It's simply that the black kid's totally mainstream upbringing is somehow inherently more interesting than the white kids? Somehow I doubt it. I simply wish ADCOMs had the courage and intellectual honesty to admit this.

 

[intangible]

I really wish my parents had the money to tell me to just focus on my studies. I wish I hadn't had to work throughout the entirety of my college career. I wish I had the money to buy expensive SAT courses to buy a score that'll get me into a fantastic UG school. I wish I had the money to pay for multiple MCAT courses. I wish I had the money to buy books most semesters.

Things happen...and they happen disproportionately against minorities. The premise behind AA initiatives is not to take careers away from Whites, it's to give opportunity where there is none to otherwise cognitively competent minorities.

 

[efle]

I really wish my parents had the money to tell me to just focus on my studies. I wish I hadn't had to work throughout the entirety of my college career. I wish I had the money to buy expensive SAT courses to buy a score that'll get me into a fantastic UG school. I wish I had the money to pay for multiple MCAT courses. I wish I had the money to buy books most semesters.

Things happen...and they happen disproportionately against minorities. The premise behind AA initiatives is not to take careers away from Whites, it's to give opportunity where there is none to otherwise cognitively competent minorities.

SAT scores are highly resistant to studying. MCAT courses are not nescessary. Stop acting like its impossible to go to a great school or do well on tests without lots of cash.

AA actively harms minorities at top undergrads anyways. They come in as a group with lower academic readiness and, as you might expect, have a much higher attrition rate during STEM weed out since there is no affirmative action on exam scoring. You actually reduce the number of minority engineers and premeds etc that make it through , and would increase the representation by instead race-blinding admissions and having them go to colleges where they are academically more able to compete/survive. There were two recent studies on this at Duke and in the UCs with the same finding.

 

[SabaChampion]

I really wish my parents had the money to tell me to just focus on my studies. I wish I hadn't had to work throughout the entirety of my college career. I wish I had the money to buy expensive SAT courses to buy a score that'll get me into a fantastic UG school. I wish I had the money to pay for multiple MCAT courses. I wish I had the money to buy books most semesters.

Things happen...and they happen disproportionately against minorities. The premise behind AA initiatives is not to take careers away from Whites, it's to give opportunity where there is none to otherwise cognitively competent minorities.

Less than 30% of African-Americans are in poverty. I'm guessing that number is even lower for African-American applicants. Yet 100% of African-American applicants get the URM benefit, and 100% of white applicants (including those below the poverty line) do not. So can we stop acting like this has anything to do with socioeconomic status? I suppose one could say that racism is so horrible in America that it justifies Affirmative Action. But that individual has no data to back up his claims.

 

[SabaChampion]

SAT scores are highly resistant to studying. MCAT courses are not nescessary. Stop acting like its impossible to go to a great school or do well on tests without lots of cash.

AA actively harms minorities at top undergrads anyways. They come in as a group with lower academic readiness and, as you might expect, have a much higher attrition rate during STEM weed out since there is no affirmative action on exam scoring. You actually reduce the number of minority engineers and premeds etc that make it through , and would increase the representation by instead race-blinding admissions and having them go to colleges where they are academically more able to compete/survive. There were two recent studies on this at Duke and in the UCs with the same finding.

Yes, and AA hasn't done anything to help UIMs. The representation of certain minorities is the same as it was decades ago. I don't think ADCOM's (outside of maybe HBCs) really care about this, it's more about following the dogma of modern academia.

 

[efle]

Less than 30% of African-Americans are in poverty. I'm guessing that number is even lower for African-American applicants. Yet 100% of African-American applicants get the URM benefit, and 100% of white applicants (including those below the poverty line) do not. So can we stop acting like this has anything to do with socioeconomic status? I suppose one could say that racism is so horrible in America that it justifies Affirmative Action. But that individual has no data to back up his claims.

The reasoning for undergrads is "diversity" and for Med schools is that under served populations are more likely to go to and follow directions from same-race doctors

 

[Biochemistry2014]

The idea that affirmative action is somehow a university/medical school's way of collecting URM students is misguided. I did not have the patience to sort through this entire thread but according to OPs quote this person believes that AA is making amends for something done in the distant historical past? No. Here's what it's really about: in this country at this curent time, URM start on a different footing long before they are brought before the judgement of an adcom. They have different access to educational opportunities, healthcare, social support, etc. That is not to say that within URM there are not a myriad of different experiences with regards to culture, socioeconomics, and racial discourse, but their commonality lies in that they have encountered some circumstance that has prevented their cultural group from being represented in the way that would reflect their percentage in the typical US population. To say that we should be blind to the existence of URM in the admissions process is to ignore the the structural problems that existed in the system from day one to keep the status quo the way they are. People who propose to be "colorblind" are, knowingly or otherwise, supporting a system that never began with equal opportunity for its participants.

This.

 

[Banco]

SAT scores are highly resistant to studying. MCAT courses are not nescessary. Stop acting like its impossible to go to a great school or do well on tests without lots of cash.

I'm not following the whole argument going on in the last few posts, but as someone who has gone through the MCAT/application process, money is VERY important.

Even without MCAT courses, you need to buy books, and register for the MCAT. All expensive. Then you need to apply to schools, travel for interviews, which can also be very expensive. These are just direct expenses - throughout your entire undergrad career, the more money you have, the more freedom you have to pursue certain activities etc.

Bottom line, having money makes a big difference. Having a family that can provide you with money is an amazing resource.

 

[efle]

I'm not following the whole argument going on in the last few posts, but as someone who has gone through the MCAT/application process, money is VERY important.

Even without MCAT courses, you need to buy books, and register for the MCAT. All expensive. Then you need to apply to schools, travel for interviews, which can also be very expensive. These are just direct expenses - throughout your entire undergrad career, the more money you have, the more freedom you have to pursue certain activities etc.

Bottom line, having money makes a big difference. Having a family that can provide you with money is an amazing resource.

I dunno man. I got a cheap old book set to teach myself with and a few hundred extra in loans for the year, and got 40+. In no way do I feel like being financially responsible for my college education hindered me in my activities. Same back in high school, my family had no income for those four years and I did no test prep and got californian national merit psat and top percent act, its absolute bull for people to say "oh I'd have been at an Ivy if only I'd had money for a Princeton review course". Same plan for app cycle, loans supported by savings from part and full time work throughout college, it just isn't some impossibility to do without rich parents like people on SDN make it out to be.

 

[Banco]

I dunno man. I got a cheap old book set to teach myself with and a few hundred extra in loans for the year, and got 40+. In no way do I feel like being financially responsible for my college education hindered me in my activities. Same back in high school, my family had no income for those four years and I did no test prep and got californian national merit psat and top percent act, its absolute bull for people to say "oh I'd have been at an Ivy if only I'd had money for a Princeton review course". Same plan for app cycle, loans supported by savings from part and full time work throughout college, it just isn't some impossibility to do without rich parents like people on SDN make it out to be.

You're a very smart guy, I'm not surprised you're succeeding. But denying the advantages of having money is a foolish thing coming from a smart guy like you; you know your specific situation is n=1. You don't have to be rich, but having parental support is palpably advantageous.

 

[Gandyy]

I'm not following the whole argument going on in the last few posts, but as someone who has gone through the MCAT/application process, money is VERY important.

Even without MCAT courses, you need to buy books, and register for the MCAT. All expensive. Then you need to apply to schools, travel for interviews, which can also be very expensive. These are just direct expenses - throughout your entire undergrad career, the more money you have, the more freedom you have to pursue certain activities etc.

Bottom line, having money makes a big difference. Having a family that can provide you with money is an amazing resource.

Agreed. However, it is being assumed in this thread by some people that just because you are Asian or White, you have parents who support you financially and money isnt a problem.

I have a huge problem with that mentality.

 

[Banco]

Agreed. However, it is being assumed in this thread by some people that just because you are Asian or White, you have parents who support you financially and money isnt a problem.

I have a huge problem with that mentality.

Statistically you are better off if you are Asian or White. But of course everyone's situation is different. You can label your socioeconomic status on AMCAS, and write about your specific circumstances, as has been repeated several times in this thread.

 

[efle]

I just don't think money for tutors or prep classes or more free time in college translates to significantly better numbers or more impressive apps. You can't privilage a mediocre mind up to a competitive MCAT. You can work for pay in a lab position or clinic that gets you the needed experience. I get that it can impact the amount of effort involved, but I am very skeptical that money lets many people become doctors that normally couldn't have.

 

[ZedsDed]

I dunno man. I got a cheap old book set to teach myself with and a few hundred extra in loans for the year, and got 40+. In no way do I feel like being financially responsible for my college education hindered me in my activities. Same back in high school, my family had no income for those four years and I did no test prep and got californian national merit psat and top percent act, its absolute bull for people to say "oh I'd have been at an Ivy if only I'd had money for a Princeton review course". Same plan for app cycle, loans supported by savings from part and full time work throughout college, it just isn't some impossibility to do without rich parents like people on SDN make it out to be.

Studies have shown that individuals on the extremes of the IQ bell curve (either very dull or very smart) largely have sealed fates. I suspect it is possible, even probable, that you are bright enough to nullify the disadvantages of your socioeconomic background. The majority of people, by definition, are not smart enough to do this. Hence, environment will influence the outcome of their life. And all of that aside elfe, I think you're smart enough to know your n=1 experience can't be applied more generally.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

I just don't think money for tutors or prep classes or more free time in college translates to significantly better numbers or more impressive apps. You can't privilage a mediocre mind up to a competitive MCAT. You can work for pay in a lab position or clinic that gets you the needed experience. I get that it can impact the amount of effort involved, but I am very skeptical that money lets many people become doctors that normally couldn't have.

You're thinking of a single family in a vacuum, lower middle class vs. upper class. If you're part of a minority group in a poor neighbourhood, you may not encouraged to pursue higher education because few of your peers have the opportunity. Anything to help people in these communities continue their education can have a positive rippling effect on the rest of the community as well as the individual. Of course there are poor white people, but these problems are much more prevalent in other ethnic groups. Clearly affirmative action programs haven't magically fixed everything, but I don't see anything wrong with trying to preferentially help certain people.

 

[efle]

Studies have shown that individuals on the extremes of the IQ bell curve (either very dull or very smart) largely have sealed fates. I suspect it is possible, even probable, that you are bright enough to nullify the disadvantages of your socioeconomic background. The majority of people, by definition, are not smart enough to do this. Hence, environment will influence the outcome of their life. And all of that aside elfe, I think you're smart enough to know your n=1 experience can't be applied more generally.

It's more that things I'm mentioning from my own example are options for anybody - doing well enough on the psat for example guarantees you a full-ride option to U of Oklahoma before you even get to senior year. You don't need fancy ECs or strong grades or anything, you can have no money and little time for school, and showing off your brain on that one test gives you all you need. If you don't have a few hundred to spend on the MCAT, take out some of the federal loan money available to all full time students. And on the flip side no amount of money thrown at the SAT is going to give a dumb rich kid a shot at the ivy league, nor will connections make someone a highly productive researcher able to speak enthusiastically and intelligently about their work. I just see on SDN all the time this mentality of money => success, no money => failure unless you're a superhero, and it is overblown. Smart poor kids very much can secure quality education for free or close to free. Dumb rich kids will never make a 36 MCAT. Money is convenient, it isn't the great decider of your fate like I see people say in posts like intangible's. "Privilege" is given too much credit. I'm actually kind of happy to have been on my own for college, because I swear to god otherwise I'd have been convinced by now that nothing I ever did was really earned or meritorious, but was all handed to be from birth for being born in a good SES, and that I'd have never impressed anyone without mom and dad paving the way.

/rant, I do understand that I'm just one experience and many others are just as valid feeling like lack of money stopped them from getting into university, or getting As, or getting good experiences, etc

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

It's more that things I'm mentioning from my own example are options for anybody

Yeah, they're options for anyone who's fortunate enough to be in an academically supportive environment. But that's not the case for a lot of kids...

 

[LizzyM]

The circumstances you are raised in do make a difference. None of them aspire to medical school but there was a very interesting story in the NYTimes Magazine a few weeks ago about two pairs of identical twin boys accidentally separated at birth with one boy from each pair raised together as if they were fraternal twins: one set in the city where they had access to education and ended up in white collar jobs and the other two in a very rural area with no access to education and both ended up in jobs in butcher shops. Equal smarts (maybe, there is ongoing research about whether identical twins are really that identical) but unequal opportunities. I strongly recommend the article to everyone.

 

[Goro]

I'm more interested in the genetic propensity to be a butcher!

The circumstances you are raised in do make a difference. None of them aspire to medical school but there was a very interesting story in the NYTimes Magazine a few weeks ago about two pairs of identical twin boys accidentally separated at birth with one boy from each pair raised together as if they were fraternal twins: one set in the city where they had access to education and ended up in white collar jobs and the other two in a very rural area with no access to education and both ended up in jobs in butcher shops. Equal smarts (maybe, there is ongoing research about whether identical twins are really that identical) but unequal opportunities. I strongly recommend the article to everyone.

 

[LizzyM]

I don't think a diverse perspective is as valuable as intelligence/hard working ability (grades, exam scores, ECs) in the field medicine.

Don't get me wrong - of course diversity is very valuable and affirmative action is a good thing for medicine, but let's be honest: it is very important to have smart, hard working doctors. Let's not undersell that.

Are you insinuating that you can't have it all: smart, hardworking and diverse? Are you suggesting that those who provide "diversity" are not smart and/or hard working??

 

[Syns]

How to drive by quote: one terrible argument's journey.

@InsertMemberNameHere, 2015

 

[Gandyy]

Statistically you are better off if you are Asian or White. But of course everyone's situation is different. You can label your socioeconomic status on AMCAS, and write about your specific circumstances, as has been repeated several times in this thread.

Oh I was raised comfortably. I'm talking about other Asians and Whites who may not be so fortunate.

 

[Lawpy]

The circumstances you are raised in do make a difference. None of them aspire to medical school but there was a very interesting story in the NYTimes Magazine a few weeks ago about two pairs of identical twin boys accidentally separated at birth with one boy from each pair raised together as if they were fraternal twins: one set in the city where they had access to education and ended up in white collar jobs and the other two in a very rural area with no access to education and both ended up in jobs in butcher shops. Equal smarts (maybe, there is ongoing research about whether identical twins are really that identical) but unequal opportunities. I strongly recommend the article to everyone.

I'm more interested in the genetic propensity to be a butcher!

For anyone interested, the article is here (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/magazine/the-mixed-up-brothers-of-bogota.html?_r=0). It's a long read, but pretty interesting regardless of our personal beliefs.

 

[Goro]

I believe that's exactly what the poster was implying....the elitism of high stats and nothing else matters.

Are you insinuating that you can't have it all: smart, hardworking and diverse? Are you suggesting that those who provide "diversity" are not smart and/or hard working??

 

[efle]

Yeah, they're options for anyone who's fortunate enough to be in an academically supportive environment. But that's not the case for a lot of kids...

What does that mean? I took the PSAT as a mandatory chunk of a regular day at my public high school. My father grew up on welfare with a single parent and he got an education thanks to strong test scores. You really don't need much to get your butt into university if you can rock a standardized test.

Granted there are some extreme cases that are outliers among even lower SES, like inner city schools that can't get anyone to attend because they're all busy making money in illegal ways...but what most people talk about on SDN regarding SES benefits are **** like parents paying tuition, SAT or MCAT prep classes, mission trips, tutoring, knowing doctors they can shadow, etc that I really don't see as changing whether or not a smart poor kid or dumb rich one can become a physician

 

[efle]

I believe that's exactly what the poster was implying....the elitism of high stats and nothing else matters.

To play devils advocate, I don't think he's saying you can't have stellar stats and be URM, just that you don't have to have as good of stats relative to ORM...it's weird to think of skin color as a "tangible" benefit to patients the same way a sharper mind could be, until factoring in the same-race preference from minorities

 

[deleted393595]

Oh look. It's the monthly AA thread.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

To play devils advocate, I don't think he's saying you can't have stellar stats and be URM, just that you don't have to have as good of stats relative to ORM...it's weird to think of skin color as a "tangible" benefit to patients the same way a sharper mind could be, until factoring in the same-race preference from minorities

If I'm not mistaken I don't think anyone is saying that being darker makes you a better physician, they're just talking about targeting groups that are at a demonstrable disadvantage in an attempt to ameliorate this.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

What does that mean? I took the PSAT as a mandatory chunk of a regular day at my public high school. My father grew up on welfare with a single parent and he got an education thanks to strong test scores. You really don't need much to get your butt into university if you can rock a standardized test.

Granted there are some extreme cases that are outliers among even lower SES, like inner city schools that can't get anyone to attend because they're all busy making money in illegal ways...but what most people talk about on SDN regarding SES benefits are **** like parents paying tuition, SAT or MCAT prep classes, mission trips, tutoring, knowing doctors they can shadow, etc that I really don't see as changing whether or not a smart poor kid or dumb rich one can become a physician

I'm referring more to growing up in an environment that promotes advancement through higher education vs growing up in one where simply graduating from HS is an achievement.
Kids who grow up in the former are typically better off financially because their parents have benefited from higher levels of educational attainment. It's not simply about having $ to prep for tests, etc. There are cultural forces that allow one group to progress more than the other.

I mean have you interacted with kids who come from poor, crime-ridden areas? Have you visited them in their "homes?"

 

[LizzyM]

To play devils advocate, I don't think he's saying you can't have stellar stats and be URM, just that you don't have to have as good of stats relative to ORM...it's weird to think of skin color as a "tangible" benefit to patients the same way a sharper mind could be, until factoring in the same-race preference from minorities

Also factor in that the sharpest minds don't want to practice primary care in a backwater place but the "smart enough" are often happy to do so.

 

[efle]

whoops double post

 

[efle]

I'm referring more to growing up in an environment that promotes advancement through higher education vs growing up in one where simply graduating from HS is an achievement.
Kids who grow up in the former are typically better off financially because their parents have benefited from higher levels of educational attainment. It's not simply about having $ to prep for tests, etc. There are cultural forces that allow one group to progress more than the other.

I mean have you interacted with kids who come from poor, crime-ridden areas? Have you visited them in their "homes?"

What like my father who was first into college, my cousins (one now in prison), my grandfather who didn't finish high school? I am familiar with that kind of culture. People like gramps can't blame anyone but themselves for being too much of an alcoholic deadbeat to even keep their trucker license - culture didn't do that to them, even with bad parenting and a bad trailer park for home. My father even had a B&E on his record by high school, not much was expected of him...I remain pretty convinced that the very smart, motivated type of people who have a good shot at medicine, also have a good shot at getting to the college stage even born into most lower SES situations.

Now, for the typical average student, very different story. Whether manual labor or drug dealing or advanced degrees is the norm does matter for the normal person.

Also factor in that the sharpest minds don't want to practice primary care in a backwater place but the "smart enough" are often happy to do so.

This seems like an issue of salaries more than whether people with especially big brains are satisfied with PC though...

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

What like my father who was first into college, my cousins (one now in prison), my grandfather who didn't finish high school? I am familiar with that kind of culture. People like gramps can't blame anyone but themselves for being too much of an alcoholic deadbeat to even keep their trucker license - culture didn't do that to them, even with bad parenting and a bad trailer park for home. My father even had a B&E on his record by high school, not much was expected of him...I remain pretty convinced that the very smart, motivated type of people who have a good shot at medicine, also have a good shot at getting to the college stage even born into most lower SES situations.

Now, for the typical average student, very different story. Whether manual labor or drug dealing or advanced degrees is the norm does matter for the normal person.

I was referring more to the average student. They obviously have a greater chance of becoming a doctor, engineer, etc if the appropriate resources are at their disposal. Thing is, ppl on SDN do have a tendency to focus on $, when there are clearly other forces at play.

 

[LizzyM]

This seems like an issue of salaries more than whether people with especially big brains are satisfied with PC though...

Sure, someone who would rather be practicing academic endocrinology might be happy to practice as a primary care provider in a remote area in exchange for 750K/year but the fact is such a practice may not be able to support more than $160K (slightly below the median for family practice without OB) means that it isn't just a case of enough money will draw people to do something they wouldn't otherwise want to do, there has to be someone on the other side of the equation willing and able to pay those salaries.

There may be people who really want to practice as PCPs and who would want to practice in a rural or inner city area and be happy to do so for the going rate for family practice.

 

[Banco]

Oh look. It's the monthly AA thread.

This one was started on June 19; we are behind on the monthly quota because this keeps getting bumped.

 

[PREMEDitated22]

I wonder how this argument of black kids not being as intelligent to become doctors would pan out if there was a way to really over come stereotype threat. I bet because of the data and statistics many of you really think URMs are not intelligent enough to become doctors, whether because of genetics or because we are "lazy". You come on SDN in your anonymity and say how you really feel. It's not something I'm unused too. It's something I, and most other URMs, deal with on a daily basis. Being that one black kid in your science classes, being that black in your group project, being that one black kid while taking the MCAT. We see you snickering and your malice through your own eyes. No need for anonymity. Not saying all but there are quite a few. Silent and unsilent. Ignorant and those whole fully understand. Many may not want to admit it but overcoming this was my biggest adversity to beating the MCAT. It almost consumed me. The thought I could not be as good as or better than an ORM. All because of a data point. All because of racism and discrimination. We all have to learn psychology now due to this new MCAT. Can you even imagine how this kind of thinking disrupts the mental psyche after being immersed in this kind of culture for all your life? To put it simply.. It really sucks. One thing I learned though that many haven't realized yet is that we are just as good. Just as smart. Just as intelligent. And definitely more culturally competent. And the day we realize that...get ready.

 

[BamaNicole]

I really wish my parents had the money to tell me to just focus on my studies. I wish I hadn't had to work throughout the entirety of my college career. I wish I had the money to buy expensive SAT courses to buy a score that'll get me into a fantastic UG school. I wish I had the money to pay for multiple MCAT courses. I wish I had the money to buy books most semesters.

Things happen...and they happen disproportionately against minorities. The premise behind AA initiatives is not to take careers away from Whites, it's to give opportunity where there is none to otherwise cognitively competent minorities.

I didn't even know you COULD prepare for the SAT. I only found out you can prepare for standardized tests when I was in my post bac program. Then I saw the prices for the prep classes and it was INSANE.

I had to self study if I wanted to stand a chance.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

I wonder how this argument of black kids not being as intelligent to become doctors would pan out if there was a way to really over come stereotype threat. I bet because of the data and statistics many of you really think URMs are not intelligent enough to become doctors, whether because of genetics or because we are "lazy". You come on SDN in your anonymity and say how you really feel. It's not something I'm unused too. It's something I, and most other URMs, deal with on a daily basis. Being that one black kid in your science classes, being that black in your group project, being that one black kid while taking the MCAT. We see you snickering and your malice through your own eyes. No need for anonymity. Not saying all but there are quite a few. Silent and unsilent. Ignorant and those whole fully understand. Many may not want to admit it but overcoming this was my biggest adversity to beating the MCAT. It almost consumed me. The thought I could not be as good as or better than an ORM. All because of a data point. All because of racism and discrimination. We all have to learn psychology now due to this new MCAT. Can you even imagine how this kind of thinking disrupts the mental psyche after being immersed in this kind of culture for all your life? To put it simply.. It really sucks. One thing I learned though that many haven't realized yet is that we are just as good. Just as smart. Just as intelligent. And definitely more culturally competent. And the day we realize that...get ready.

I'm sorry if you've dealt with this kind of prejudice, but I don't think anyone here was saying that black people are less intelligent. They were talking about the merits of a system that might give preferential treatment to someone from a URM with slightly worse stats. Personally I'm for this, but even those against it weren't saying that any racial group is stupider than another racial group.

 

[PREMEDitated22]

.

 

[PREMEDitated22]

Whether AA is right or wrong is irrelevant. Work your ass off. We are barely represented as it is. Does it so madden you that what some might lack in stats can make up for it in other skills? If you gain an acceptance in medicial school you deserve it point blank period.

/rant

 

[steelersfan1243]

I wonder how this argument of black kids not being as intelligent to become doctors would pan out if there was a way to really over come stereotype threat. I bet because of the data and statistics many of you really think URMs are not intelligent enough to become doctors, whether because of genetics or because we are "lazy". You come on SDN in your anonymity and say how you really feel. It's not something I'm unused too. It's something I, and most other URMs, deal with on a daily basis. Being that one black kid in your science classes, being that black in your group project, being that one black kid while taking the MCAT. We see you snickering and your malice through your own eyes. No need for anonymity. Not saying all but there are quite a few. Silent and unsilent. Ignorant and those whole fully understand. Many may not want to admit it but overcoming this was my biggest adversity to beating the MCAT. It almost consumed me. The thought I could not be as good as or better than an ORM. All because of a data point. All because of racism and discrimination. We all have to learn psychology now due to this new MCAT. Can you even imagine how this kind of thinking disrupts the mental psyche after being immersed in this kind of culture for all your life? To put it simply.. It really sucks. One thing I learned though that many haven't realized yet is that we are just as good. Just as smart. Just as intelligent. And definitely more culturally competent. And the day we realize that...get ready.

I wonder if it can also be said ORM receives prejudice too. Imagine an Asian or Indian telling people they want to be a doctor, most people's first thought is that their parents are forcing them to. Imagine, becoming Presidents of clubs, spending countless hours serving the community, only to have people write you off as trying to get to medical school and citing nothing of your desire to actually help others. There is stigma against ORM, but its not alleviated in any way.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

Since this thread is already a ***show, I might as well ask this here:

Do you think it could actually be a negative to mention being Jewish, if it is seen as an ORM? If you're white it would be easy to not bring it up.

 

[SabaChampion]

Also factor in that the sharpest minds don't want to practice primary care in a backwater place but the "smart enough" are often happy to do so.

But you don't vet URM's for commitment to their respective communities. URM individuals automatically have a higher chance of being admitted, assuming average EC's, because of skin color...yet no one seems willing to admit this.

 

[PREMEDitated22]

.

 

[SabaChampion]

Are you insinuating that you can't have it all: smart, hardworking and diverse? Are you suggesting that those who provide "diversity" are not smart and/or hard working??

A person with higher stats is more likely to be smarter and more hardworking. This is not an inflammatory thing to say. When you admit those with low stats, simply for the sake of diversity, you are potentially doing so at the expense of losing smarter and more hardworking individuals.

 

[LizzyM]

A person with higher stats is more likely to be smarter and more hardworking. This is not an inflammatory thing to say. When you admit those with low stats, simply for the sake of diversity, you are potentially doing so at the expense of losing smarter and more hardworking individuals.

We take those who are smart enough and hard working enough. We can fill the class ten times over with people who are smart enough and hard working enough to become very competent doctors. Once we narrow the field to those who are smart enough and hard working enough, what other characteristics should we seek?

 

[steelersfan1243]

I just want to ask one final question. Can you look yourself in the mirror and really say me gaining one of 5 seats in medical school is more important than a whole underserved community gaining a competent doctor who not only loves but understands the people they serve. Is it? Are you able to honestly be selfless? To put others before you? Or is it all a show for the adcoms?

I can. I do not understand why you keep on ranting. It seems clear URMs are a must for medical school, even if that comes at a cost of high stats, so who cares. I think anger over this issue is over URMs who think their race had nothing to do with their admission, where in most cases it plays a large part.